FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

[glen]

And nice video Gab! FIFA 08 did have much better momentum/inertia, I think FIFA 09's wasn't too bad either - 360 degree control seemed to really mess it up with 10/11.

not at all. If you play 08 and the 10/11 back to back the inertia is much more realistic in the latest iterations.

There is some movement issues but momentum and inertia are much better in 11.

08 was a horrendous game as was 09. Because the position structure of players and 45 degree angles the games were not much fun. They felt like 3d versions of sensible soccer.

That said there is a fuck load of movement issues with FIFA 11 its difficult to see how much locomotion is improved.

 

[Gab_]

...
And nice video Gab! FIFA 08 did have much better momentum/inertia, I think FIFA 09's wasn't too bad either - 360 degree control seemed to really mess it up with 10/11...

Might have been to do with the 360 control (with ball), but it seems weird since you can run around 360 in FIFA 08 without the ball and it looks good.

I think it could have more to do with people complaining so much on delay/response time that they just decided to sacrifice momentum for quick controls. I don't think the response times are that bad without the ball in FIFA 08, it's just that with the ball they take 2-3 steps before reacting.

Notice how good the acceleration looks in the end of my clip when I run one direction and change to the opposite. He make a proper stop and then takes several steps before being able to really accelerate up to full sprint. I think it looks great.

Glen: Please...

 

[kobayashi]

True. Who really wants a true sim? It had to be 90minute matches and who would play it? Would you really play the whole match when you were losing 0-4 after 20 minutes? 6 or 10 minutes cant be so realistic.

No! No excuse. I mean you come here a bash rob, yet you say rubbish like 6 or 10 mintue game can't play anything lie football. look at PES 5, enough said. EA have no excuse for making FIFA 11 so much NO like football in terms of balance.

Get you facts straight. It's people like you is the reason why FIFA is getting less and less about football because you just make pathetic excuses like this!

Alreet, I made a little video of the momentum with and without the ball in FIFA 08. The quality is pretty low so if someone with a better camera would like to do the same thing it would be great.

I don't have FIFA 11, so it would be great if someone made a similar movie from FIFA 11 so we can compare the movement of the player. Ultimately it would be great if someone with both games and a good camera could record the same movements in both games for best comparison.

Anyway, here is the video. I added some text to show what buttons I press. I use left stick only, left stick + sprint and left stick + close control (jockey) with the ball first and then second half without the ball. It looks pretty good to me, no sliding around and it looks like they at least try to simulate momentum and footplanting.

YouTube - FIFA 08 - Momentum/inertia

Beautiful! The unresponsive masterpiece that was FIFA. Loads of flaws but that game had so much potential and it's the only reason why i still have hope for EA! Because we know they are capable of making inertia happen!

 

[glen]

Gab I'm being serious.

 

[Rob92]

not at all. If you play 08 and the 10/11 back to back the inertia is much more realistic in the latest iterations.

There is some movement issues but momentum and inertia are much better in 11.

08 was a horrendous game as was 09. Because the position structure of players and 45 degree angles the games were not much fun. They felt like 3d versions of sensible soccer.

That said there is a fuck load of movement issues with FIFA 11 its difficult to see how much locomotion is improved.

You do know what momentum/inertia are, right?

 

[glen]

You do know what momentum/inertia are, right?

Yes.....which one are you struggling with momentum or inertia or both?

 

[Rob92]

Yes.....which one are you struggling with momentum or inertia or both?

Lol I really am struggling to take you seriously.

Basic knowledge of the laws of physics tells you that humans simply cannot move and change direction like they do in FIFA 11.

In FIFA 08, as illustrated by Gab's video, players move around in a much more realistic manner.

 

[o S i V a 2 1 o]

I've made constructive and mainly factual points, nobody has made an attempt to disprove or constructively argue against them, meaning they don't negate anything I've said.

Please, let's change the topic back to FIFA and how it could be improved.

And about this kind of "anti-FIFA" discussion being allowed or not - why is criticism any less valid to post here than praise?

First of all i am gonna pretend i didnt see the facepalm you gave me for that comment...2) i am gonna take the ''please lets change the topic back to fifa'' as your way of apologising for the comment u made above twice, or at least you didnt mean that way,cause the way you put it its basically an insult for some of us who debate with you...3)posting the same videos or saying the some negative things with a little tad of bitterness isnt constructive over and over....i dont want you to praise fifa but i would prefer if with our constructive criticism make both games better and a joy to play.I think that must be our goal.
I think maybe most of the times fifa rely on stats and i would like to see momentum,positioning ,free space,stamina,form,having a most active part in the game...Sorry for my english sometimes,i really try my best

 

[glen]

You think humans can only run in 16 directions then like FIFA 08?

Neither 08 or 11 is correct. To wax lyrical about either is somewhat missing the point.

Ronnie knocking the ball 4 feet in front of him with just the left stick is not realistic.

 

[Gab_]

You think humans can only run in 16 directions then like FIFA 08?

Neither 08 or 11 is correct. To wax lyrical about either is somewhat missing the point.

Ronnie knocking the ball 4 feet in front of him with just the left stick is not realistic.

You completely miss the point with that video. It has nothing to do with limits in direction or how far the ball touches are.

 

[glen]

No I get it gab, and appreciate it. I'm just debating the point that in FIFA 11 the actual movement feels more organic.

We are talking about a computer game so neither is truly believable but in context FIFA 11 is much better.....now this is a forum so I don't suffix every post with IMO cause that's a given surely.

FIFA 11 ion the whole is horrendous, we all agree but from where I sit much better in movement than 08. The problem is I think FIFA 11 accentuates the problems much more than the previous games.

 

[Rob92]

First of all i am gonna pretend i didnt see the facepalm you gave me for that comment...2) i am gonna take the ''please lets change the topic back to fifa'' as your way of apologising for the comment u made above twice, or at least you didnt mean that way,cause the way you put it its basically an insult for some of us who debate with you...

I wouldn't really call what you're doing "debating", and no, that wasn't my way of apologising for anything...

3)posting the same videos or saying the some negative things with a little tad of bitterness isnt constructive over and over....i dont want you to praise fifa but i would prefer if with our constructive criticism make both games better and a joy to play.I think that must be our goal.

My criticism is constructive - I'm not just making statements like "the FIFA series died after 09"...

You think humans can only run in 16 directions then like FIFA 08?

Neither 08 or 11 is correct. To wax lyrical about either is somewhat missing the point.

Ronnie knocking the ball 4 feet in front of him with just the left stick is not realistic.

The point isn't about the amount of directions you can run in, it's about the intertia/momentum.
It's not a subjective thing either - It's a fact that FIFA 08's player physics are more realistic.

 

[Jamezinho]

You think humans can only run in 16 directions then like FIFA 08?

Did that actually make any difference to the gameplay?

No for me.

 

[glen]

Yes rob.... So what specifically is worse in FIFA 11 with regards to inertia and momentum?

The directions are a huge factor with momentum and inertia.....you understand the maths of how angles change the reactive and inactive force?

 

[glen]

Did that actually make any difference to the gameplay?

No for me.

Not really, I did find that with how ridgid player positions were it was pretty easy to play without any real challenges from box to box.

It was also much easier to learn the angles.

 

[romagnoli]

You think humans can only run in 16 directions then like FIFA 08?

Neither 08 or 11 is correct. To wax lyrical about either is somewhat missing the point.

Ronnie knocking the ball 4 feet in front of him with just the left stick is not realistic.

It's not about the directions Ronaldinho moves, but the rate at which he moves in them. The video is not about the gap between pressing the left stick and something happening, or the difference between the direction pressed and the direction the player goes, or indeed the distance the player moves the ball. That's not what is being discussed, that's not part of momentum or inertia. Just focus on the speed at which Ronaldinho actually turns and how long it takes him to change direction. It's far, far more human than 11's or 10's.

 

[Rob92]

Yes rob.... So what specifically is worse in FIFA 11 with regards to inertia and momentum?

The directions are a huge factor with momentum and inertia.....you understand the maths of how angles change the reactive and inactive force?

YouTube - FIFA 11 - Stupid defender physics/reactions

I know individual clips are not usually the best way to prove a point, but this kind of thing is a very common occurrence in FIFA 11 - It didn't happen to the same extent in 08.

Players pivot/slide around or change direction at a ridiculous speed all the time in FIFA 11.

And yes, I understand the maths behind the physics.

 

[glen]

It's not about the directions Ronaldinho moves, but the rate at which he moves in them. The video is not about the gap between pressing the left stick and something happening, or the difference between the direction pressed and the direction the player goes, or indeed the distance the player moves the ball. That's not what is being discussed, that's not part of momentum or inertia. Just focus on the speed at which Ronaldinho actually turns and how long it takes him to change direction. It's far, far more human than 11's or 10's.

I really can't agree with that.

Sitting here watching the England match they move much faster than FIFA 08.

Im gonna go to you tube and watch some of the soccer am skills schools bids because they move much faster than FIFA 08 or FIFA 11 in general leg, body movement.

 

[glen]

Rob the attacker turned back on the defender who was behind him. Animation transition is pretty rough but I'd expect a non sprinting defender to win that ball. And being honest it's not a great visualisation of momentum.

 

[glen]

As a side note it's the surface adhesion that is the main problem. There is no variance in it bar weather and the weather stuff is just a load of bollocks.

That is why the momentum and inertia not realistic. It's also probably why weight and foot planting haven't been introduced.

 

[Rob92]

Rob the attacker turned back on the defender who was behind him. Animation transition is pretty rough but I'd expect a non sprinting defender to win that ball. And being honest it's not a great visualisation of momentum.

I know the attacker wasn't great in that situation, but the defender's movement is completely off.

He's running, then manages to just push off in the opposite direction in an instant without losing any balance at all, here's another video, this time from FIFA 12;

YouTube - FIFA 12 news - New features (leaked) trailer

Look at 0:35 and the way the player defending retreats and then manages to pivot round and change direction without losing any pace/balance...

 

[glen]

I can't see that vid rob, when I get to my laptop I will have a watch.

I'm not disagreeing entirely just saying that its better over the course of a match better in FIFA 11 bar R2 hard stop/shields

 

[drekkard]

I'm finishing off my CM review for EA but I was just going to add some detail on my gameplay impressions in the footnotes.
From FIFA 11, and given shooting has been tweaked in 12 (how good that will be we will have to wait and see) I'd like to get a feel for what peoples top three issues with the gameplay mechanics are or what they feel needs priority..

Please keep it to three only and try to be succinct and I'll pass them on with my report..

1.

2.

3.

Thanks for giving us the chance to participate Nick!

1. Movement physics/inertia/momentum. I think this is shared amongst everyone here and is one of the most glaring faults of the game.

2. Having attributes (both phyisical AND mental) impact a lot more the game. Thinks like preferred foot, skill, vision simply don't exist right now. To this, add TEAM attributes that create different styles of play, just like NBA2K has done to such success.

3. Passing, first touch and ball control should be MASSIVELY influenced by player stats. A strong and quick but not skillfull CB should have obvious problems to run with the ball or simply control an oncoming pass. ERROR must be added in tons. Technical skill should be a MAJOR factor. It should allow for FAST yet uneffective players like you can find in a 2nd division team, but also slow but skilled players like you find in some big teams.

This are my main 3 points. The 4th should be all about tactics, but you can factor in tactics until you get the basics of football right. And as long as I know, the basics of football rely on touching the ball with your feet and move.

 

[romagnoli]

I really can't agree with that.

Sitting here watching the England match they move much faster than FIFA 08.

Im gonna go to you tube and watch some of the soccer am skills schools bids because they move much faster than FIFA 08 or FIFA 11 in general leg, body movement.

They move faster, sure. But they don't turn and change direction any faster. The point is that in real football the players are responsive but still have momentum to deal with. In FIFA 08 the players weren't responsive but had momentum; in FIFA's 10 and 11 the players are responsive but have no momentum. If the game had responsiveness AND momentum then we would all be happy.

It's not the weather that is breaking the momentum, it's the implementation of the 360 movement that seems to have thrown it out of the window (combined with the minimal AI reaction times that mean you can seldom use momentum to your advantage unless the CPU player is mid-challenge).

In that video of the attacker - me - turning, the defender (who IS sprinting) reacts to my turn at the exact same moment that he's level with me. Of course I have already started to turn, so am already slowing down. By contrast the defender is not as advanced as me, but because he is using a mish-mash of different animations to approximate his momentum, he is actually bypassing much of it, and is therefore able to

(a) see me turn but still move forwards another step,
(b) react to my sudden change of direction,
(c) slow down from full sprint,
(d) come to a stop and start pushing away, and
(e) accelerate and get to the ball,

all within the window of me using the element of surprise to turn on the ball. How can you argue that this is a sensible use of momentum, given both players had much the same agility, acceleration and pace?

 

[glen]

Had they been level I'd agree. However they weren't the attacker turned in to the defender with a duff fake shot or right stick.

It's believable not realistic and the animation of the defender is poor.

 

[glen]

Chris non responsive is a psuedo momentum.

 

[romagnoli]

Come on Glen! Look at it. I initiate the turn. Unless the defender is expecting me to turn and times it perfectly (and you'd know the CPU was anticipating your move by it sometimes getting the anticipation wrong), he is performing all 5 of those steps well within my rate of turn. The distance between me and him when he gets to the ball is EXACTLY the same as the distance when I initiate the turn. Are you seriously telling me that the defender should be able to react, stop, turn and go at 100% the same rate as me, without getting his body in the way of me?

The two players are exactly as far apart at the end of the phase of play as at the start. Either the defender is reacting absolutely instantaneously, rendering momentum obsolete (because what point is there in having momentum if both players are going to move at the exact same microsecond, therefore always having absolutely identical x-y acceleration on the pitch) or the momentum is even more lopsided to give him the edge. For my money it's both, as can be seen when dribbling with a player like Terry and seeing how precisely he dribbles on the turn at low speeds without having to regain his speed.

We've all said how the responsiveness is a false momentum in the past. But there was actual momentum too. You watch that Ronaldinho video and you can't see the responsiveness because you can't see the pad. All you can see is the end product - a player who is actually transferring his weight. EA have seen responsiveness and momentum as identical, and to improve responsiveness have removed the need to transfer weight. This is flat out wrong.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Honestly Glen.....

Another example, although I don't have a video;

Attacking the area with the defense standing still, holding the line. From the wing I pass the ball 90d along the edge of the area with a defender about 2m away facing away from his goal, as I am about to receive possesion I flick the stick to tap the ball past the defender (one touch), with my attacker moving at full speed towards the goal(line). Within the splitsecond of my player tapping the ball into the area and about 5m past the defender and my player running at full speed witht he defender standing still, the defender has been able to turn, sprint and intercept the ball. Momentum should determine that he will only have been able to turn by the time I am on the ball, not clearing it away!

Same thing for the video posted above, it takes a splitsecond for the mind to register what is happening and then another (or longer) for your body to manipulate itself to react to the initial registration. It's all very well saying the defender is lacking animations and transitions and that it is therefor correct, but when the AI has different reactions to what a human can possibly produce then the reaction times (manifestating itself by a lack of momentum in animations) are off.

Another simple way to show is to ask the following question;
Can you perform at the same reaction speed as the defender in the video without gambling on football insight to block the run? I think it will always be no, as it's just too fast!

 

[henrys hand]

I think the missing momentum/inertia and the missing error in control of the ball and first-touch (depending on stats)...is not missing because EA can't do it. See Fifa 08 where momentum existed.

I think it's a deliberate gamedesign-decision to make the game as responsive and as pick-up-and-play-friendly as possible.

And I don't think that the criticisement from hardcore-players, who crave for a realistic football-game, will overthrow that gamedesign-decision.

 

[glen]

Ok let me reposition my point of view.

Does every dribble, pass result on a shot on goal?

Is every turn a defender beating bit of skill?

Or is it the balance is frustrating but actually balanced?

Let me pull out my full game I recorded in SD last year.