FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

The best way to settle this inertia discussion here. Glen since you believe the inertia is good on FIFA's 10-11. Try, in your lovely house, or living space to just replicate the turn the defender did in the video rob posted or in some of Romagnoi's videos regarding the matter!

try and turn like he did. Also i love to see anyone try and move like Hummels did in that FIFA 12 E3 video.

I think that's a very good way to illustrate our concerns. When you try and turn like they do in FIFA 10/11 and realize you body simply is incapable of making those lightning like turns or moving you legs in respective to how they do. Not just your body, anyone's body!

We know it's just a computer game but when with FIFA they show this lovely regard of weight balance when turning and body momentum, then just discard it and make them move like Aliens it's just infuriating!
 
glen said:
Ok let me reposition my point of view.

Does every dribble, pass result on a shot on goal?

Is every turn a defender beating bit of skill?

Or is it the balance is frustrating but actually balanced?

Let me pull out my full game I recorded in SD last year.
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This post is just an abstract retreat from dealing with the issue being discussed. It doesn't help because this is the sort of problem with the game that NEEDS fixing in orderto bring the single player and multiplayer experiences closer together, making it easier to balance both and reducing other glaring issues with the game (like this) in the longer term.

Kobaklash: if Glen can get up to a full sprint in his house I'd either be very jealous of his house or sad for his lack of top speed!
 
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Hate to do it but put aside any opinions about the rest of the game, focus on this issue and look at PES's trailer at 1 min 16 seconds:
YouTube - PES 2012 - gameplay only HD

Defender against attacker. They're battling, the defender is containing, the attacker is tryingto throw him and can potentially get himself half a yard to play in a cross or open up the angle for a pass.

YouTube - Fifa 12 leaked video with new features and gameplay

FIFA 12. Defender against attacker. The movement is instant, the reaction times are zero, the defender is never fazed in the slightest. There's push-pull in the physicality and on the back of the box, but not in the mental battle or positioning of the players.

You can hopefully see in these two different approaches just why that sudden (and illogical) turn in that FIFA 11 vid didn't fool the CPU in the slightest. Not enough momentum, no reaction times.
 
Koby, don't paraphrase me. I said it was better than 08. I said it was flawed.

Me v Marty on Vimeo

That was from FIFA 10. There are errors all over the place which we can see. Weren't so apparent when I played though but it was standard def.

For the record I cannot get up to full speed in my house. It's a small house and I was wheezing half way....
 
Rom it wasnt a retreat, merely to point out that we will never get a true implementation because the ai will never be good enough to play it.
 
Like I already said, it's a deliberate gamedesign-decision by EA in order to have a super-responsive and pick-up-friendly game.

They won't change that because of us who want a realistic model.
 
Your being facetious :)

Probably doesn't but, I hate the fact no one talks about surface adhesion which varies ground to ground etc. If you don't consider those factors it becomes game able. It's the level of consistency in terms of outcome that is the most inherent problem.
 
nerf said:
A FIFA player could get up to a full sprint in a phone box.
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:LOL: funny but true :(

romagnoli said:
Kobaklash: if Glen can get up to a full sprint in his house I'd either be very jealous of his house or sad for his lack of top speed!
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Well i assume he had a nice house, maybe he could try in his lovely garden :)

glen said:
Koby, don't paraphrase me. I said it was better than 08. I said it was flawed.

Me v Marty on Vimeo

That was from FIFA 10. There are errors all over the place which we can see. Weren't so apparent when I played though but it was standard def.

For the record I cannot get up to full speed in my house. It's a small house and I was wheezing half way....
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Fair enough. Well, where FIFA 11 is better is that it's not stuck on rails when your running in a straight line and you don't have those terrible button lag responsiveness issues or again bugs where player ha those elephant touches and you just could stop them!

Where FIFA 11 is worse than FIFA 08 is pretty much every single other aspect of movement :)) especially regarding turns and all the mechanics which go into that!

Also credit to you that you reply and state your opinion linking some OTHER who are still ducking me :RANT:
 
If you have more momentum/inertia you allow room for more human response times by the CPU as positioning becomes more important - the dribbler cannot go in any direction with uniform speed and it becomes easier to limit the direction he goes. This just isn't the case at the moment as both of those videos I posted demonstrate.

Edit: I'm not being facetious, you're evading the issue! You playing against Marty has nothing to do with this, particularly if not presented with any context or explanation of why it does. You can't just look at that video of me turning and say 'well what actually happens doesn't make sense but a defender dispossessing an attacker does' - the video is not an isolated incident but a shining example of what is wrong with the momentum of the game as a whole.

Re: surface friction: because surface friction isn't as important as the reaction times and momentum of the players!
 
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The thing is rom, is that FIFA players never move with enough differential between speeds. Move this to a tele cam and it looks even worse.

Do you find the same problems with be a pro cam?
 
glen said:
The thing is rom, is that FIFA players never move with enough differential between speeds. Move this to a tele cam and it looks even worse.

Do you find the same problems with be a pro cam?
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And they don't have enough differentials between speed because there's nowhere near enough momentum and the CPU (and anything not specifically human controlled) reacts instantly. The point is when a player turns he should be losing speed and having to regain it. There is an element of this but not enough and it's erratically distributed across all animations and directions of movement. The CPU reacting with some sort of delay would improve things as it'd mean you could theoretically get the jump on them, but not to the extent that you can keep turning one way and the other and never be stopped. Jockeying becomes more important because it's less committal; by contrast at the moment defending against the CPU in 12 is a complete mismatch because this issue is even more exposed.

I don't know about BAP cam, I never use it. It's too restrictive, it's blinkered towards goal rather than your surroundings, and the frame rate is too slow.
 
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Slick edit rom.

Now my video shows a whole fucking game...not a 30 second sound bite of a flaw/crap implementation.

You can't post a 3 second clip and then dismiss a whole 12 mins..

Now, a whole game shows 90 mins of momentum in context. Or is context not allowed? If it's not fair enough but I'm pretty sure we all play entire match ?
 
romagnoli said:
And they don't have enough differentials between speed because there's nowhere near enough momentum and the CPU (and anything not specifically human controlled) reacts instantly. The point is when a player turns he should be losing speed and having to regain it. There is an element of this but not enough and it's erratically distributed across all animations and directions of movement. The CPU reacting with some sort of delay would improve things as it'd mean you could theoretically get the jump on them, but not to the extent that you can keep turning one way and the other and never be stopped. Jockeying becomes more important because it's less committal; by contrast at the moment defending against the CPU in 12 is a complete mismatch because this issue is even more exposed.

I don't know about BAP cam, I never use it. It's too restrictive, it's blinkered towards goal rather than your surroundings, and the frame rate is too slow.
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The reason I said about bap cam is because it makes a difference in fidelity. The tele cam is very misleading in terms of space.
 
I edit. I don't like double posting. Thought you'd be used to it by now!

Your game means nothing in this context. It doesn't show anything in this regard. We've all got months, years of playing this and other games behind us, and we're showing examples of the problems we face on a regular basis. I'm not posting a blip, an anomaly that happened once ever and has no relation to anything that ever happens otherwise. I'm showing a fundamental flaw with how the game AS A WHOLE treats momentum, something a hell of a lot of us here consider very important to the general behaviour of the game in close quarters. Something that prevents a hell of a lot of different moment-to-moment occurrences, ranging from proper defender vs attacker battling to goals scored by attackers catching the defence flat and running through despite being 2 or 3 yards onside. I've posted about exactly this sort of thing a number of times and said exactly how important it is to freeing up the game.

Your argument is literally, look at this game between me and Marty! I'm not going to put as little effort in as that (that's right, an edit :P)

This sort of "well, it's kind of balanced so it's alright" argument solves nothing, and leads to exactly the sort of balanced game, but imbalanced football game we have had for too long now.
 
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The reason I said about bap cam is because it makes a difference in fidelity. The tele cam is very misleading in terms of space.
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The movement is pretty much left to right, except I'm moving slightly diagonally (though not by much). I checked it through various angles before uploading and tele was the most fairly descriptive of what happened.
 
I have no life so I made a video with FIFA 10, similar to the one I made with FIFA 08.

YouTube - FIFA 10 - Momentum/inertia

And here's FIFA 08 again for reference:

YouTube - FIFA 08 - Momentum/inertia

Differences I can pick out:

  • Acceleration from standing still (or turning 180) to full speed (jogging or sprint) is very short. In FIFA 08 they simulated the player having to push away with trailing leg and then take short steps to increase acceleration. In FIFA 10 it goes directly to a very high speed without much acceleration in between.
  • There is some feet sliding that wasn't in FIFA 08
  • It is a bit glitchy when turning quickly with left stick only and running jockey. Running jockey you can see the player often being tilted from the head, making the feet float around very quickly all over the place.
  • Response times on jockey is very sluggish, can't move quickly from side to side that you could in FIFA 08. It doesn't look like momentum, it's just very slow.
  • Response times without the ball moving normally is also very sluggish compared to 08 actually. In this video you can see when I move around without the ball "left stick only" he doesn't turn and move the direction I hold, it's very sluggish but again not momentum based, it's just very slow to move in the direction I hold. I would not have thought it was like this if I hadn't tried it out.
  • A lot more ball touches making it look a bit silly because every touch is so perfect. With error in touches it would look better.
 
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Rom, my video is a whole full match. You cab see the errors clearly. But in the context of 90 mins it's fairly balanced.

Its easy to single out a moment in time. But the bigger picture is the match. In it's whole matches that matter with brilliance or skill or fuck ups making the difference.

Micro and macro. Do you want to play a decent match of football or stop and rewind on a half second glitch?

There are problems that's a given but let's show them in context and not in 10 second windows. Else nothing moves forwards because at the end of the day we are playing pseudo 90 min games.
 
You may dislike posting again, I prefer to answer what's in front of me at the time.

But maybe my forum etiquette is different to yours.
 
Also should be noted look at the speed Ronaldinho moves at there in that FIFA 10 video yet his acceleration, sprint speed and agility stats should have been considerably lower compared to FIFA 08.

I mean they would have been around 78-80 in all those stat departments. YET! We see him move about twice as fast as he did in FIFA 08 with less weight even!
 
Gab_ said:
Might have been to do with the 360 control (with ball), but it seems weird since you can run around 360 in FIFA 08 without the ball and it looks good.

I think it could have more to do with people complaining so much on delay/response time that they just decided to sacrifice momentum for quick controls. I don't think the response times are that bad without the ball in FIFA 08, it's just that with the ball they take 2-3 steps before reacting.

Notice how good the acceleration looks in the end of my clip when I run one direction and change to the opposite. He make a proper stop and then takes several steps before being able to really accelerate up to full sprint. I think it looks great.

Glen: Please...
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The Euro (2008 i guess) game was the game that they fixed perfectly the controlls responsiveness without sacrificing the physical players movements.

On this department euro 2008 was :WORSHIP:

But the Ai was shocking, terrible, and because of it the game was broken.:SHOCK: Shooting as well was very limited (you couldn't socore from ousie the box :CONFUSE:). Very repetitive goals.

If we think about it, i think the Euro game was the game EA should have used as a base for future games. ANimations, physcial movement was there and the responsiveness was fixed. Then, they should only focus on AI, shooting physics, the tatical side of football and individuality.

We could have an amazing game..:((
 
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Glen over the course of an entire year that the game is out we don't enjoy it nearly as much as we could because it doesn't have the depth of football experience that we want, and a key part of this is the game edit: NOT treating momentum and the CPU reaction times sensibly. If you say 'ah well it evens out' then that's nonsense that holds the progress of the game up. It'd be like a car in a racing game randomly being able to utterly nail a corner without braking. If it happens as often as it does in FIFA and the general movement of the players is too fast by design, then that's not a one-off. It's something that prevents the learning experience in trying to defend or attack properly and it leads to various additional imbalances in trying to compensate, which just means the game is getting it less and less right by the year.
 
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The issues with the momentum affect the entire way you play the game, from the way you dribble, defend, the passes you take on etc... You have to play in an unnatural and unrealistic manner to compensate.
Just because the scorelines balance out over a 15 minute match does not make it acceptable.
 
Further going into details on what FIFA needs to look on improving on. Using the two examples here Gab provided.

FIFA 08 vs FIFA 10 in terms of inertia. (this is for those who haven't seen gab's post)
FIFA 08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfCELx-ZqA

FIFA 10 (FIFA 11 is worse for this btw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVxzU6xVlAE

He explains about the fundamental gameplay changes.

Differences I can pick out:

  • Acceleration from standing still (or turning 180) to full speed (jogging or sprint) is very short. In FIFA 08 they simulated the player having to push away with trailing leg and then take short steps to increase acceleration. In FIFA 10 it goes directly to a very high speed without much acceleration in between.
  • There is some feet sliding that wasn't in FIFA 08
  • It is a bit glitchy when turning quickly with left stick only and running jockey. Running jockey you can see the player often being tilted from the head, making the feet float around very quickly all over the place.
  • Response times on jockey is very sluggish, can't move quickly from side to side that you could in FIFA 08. It doesn't look like momentum, it's just very slow.
  • Response times without the ball moving normally is also very sluggish compared to 08 actually. In this video you can see when I move around without the ball "left stick only" he doesn't turn and move the direction I hold, it's very sluggish but again not momentum based, it's just very slow to move in the direction I hold. I would not have thought it was like this if I hadn't tried it out.
  • A lot more ball touches making it look a bit silly because every touch is so perfect. With error in touches it would look better.
Click to expand...

Now i expand on that taking about individuality and how stats are relevant to the movement of players in FIFA: if someone could provide me details on Ronaldinho's FIFA 10 ratings to be exact that would be perfect.

Ronadinho's ratings on FIFA 08 would had been based on his 2006-07 performances. Well that's what i though but i've just checked and i was a bit wrong about that :LOL: To be precise here's his movement stats for FIFA 08:

Agility: 96
Acceleration: 91
Sprint Speed: 89

Also Dribbling was 96 along with ball control. So from what i could see there, it was a based mostly based on his peak attributes from 2004-2006 rather than 2006-07

Here's Ronnie at his Peak:
YouTube - Ronaldinho vs Real Madrid 2005-2006

Here's also a match comp of him vs Club America. This was my original intention. He has a great game but pay attention to his movement really. There's a few points where he beats 2-3 players not just with technique but he hadn't lost all his pace and agility.

YouTube - Ronaldinho vs Club America 2006-2007 [by nitter]

---

Now with FIFA 10 his ratings would have been based on the season 2008-2009. Now at Milan, even before 2008-09 it was apparent despite still had the technique and all but he put on a bit of weight and some of the injuries had hampered his agility to an rather large extent. He certainly didn't have the pace he once did. I'm SURE his ratings would had dropped to something like 78-82 in terms of his acceleration, agility etc.. (dribbling still being 96). Notice the whole game (he plays really well, a joy to watch). He focuses mainly on dropping deep and providing brilliant passes etc.. He's not quite as harp and agile as before.

YouTube - Ronaldinho vs Italy 2008-2009 [by nitter]

Now my point in all of this is that despite the significant change in his ratings. Ronnie still in FIFA 10 moves at lighting speeds in terms of his turning, momentum etc.. As you could see from the real life clips, not just the whole process of how inertia is no existent almost in FIFA 10, 11, stats are severely poor at representing players movement. I could go on about weak foot usage when dribbling etc.. etc. but i hope this comparison shows where EA have gone so wrong in the past with REPRESENTING how a player should move.

As you can see the recent FIFA's do not illustrate a even basic representation to how Ronaldinho moves. Stat values aren't replicating a significant difference like they should be doing and could do!
 
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4 pages of arguments since this afternoon. OH LORDY LORD.

@nickcaveandthebadeggs

1. I find dribbling to be a joke. All players dribble with such unflinching accuracy that it honestly does feel like you're controlling the ball the exact same way that Messi does in real life. It makes the ball seem glued to your feet and it never gets away from you because you simply cannot take a bad touch. The close control is just too un-error prone. It is best demonstrated when you are able to turn around in a complete circle a)very fast and b)with lack of error. It is this fundamental issue which makes the game too fast IMO because there's no trepidation about losing the ball or taking a bad touch.

2. Goalkeepers reactions are OTT and far too scripted. They have an almost clairvoyant approach to saving shots because they seem to know instantly where the ball is headed as soon as it leaves the players foot. I suspect it's because EA know just how easy it is to get chances on goal 1 v 1 and need to balance the gameplay in order to stop games being 8-8.

3. Everything about defending. It's positionally bad as we all know but something else i find annoying is that it is poor to react which in turn makes attacking and scoring really easy. Scoring in football is difficult, in Fifa not enough attacks are cut out by defenders. IMO if the defence reacted faster than the attackers then you would have to work more cleverly for your goals, cutting the opposition open by exploiting holes in the defence when they open. Think about in real life how often attacking teams get to the 18 yard line and work the ball around the box because they can't open up the defence. That's because the defence, as long as it's decent, is difficult to break down and you can't just go running through the middle. Say also you push the ball out wide and put a ball into the middle by a general rule of thumb there are going to be more defenders in the box to clear the danger than attackers, goals should come far less often from this sort of attack because generally there are going to be more defenders than attackers so they should be fully ready to clear the ball or position themselves to block it rather than the ball falling to an attacker in space. Honestly you watch any football match and look how easily and often defenders deal with balls into the box because of how many of them there are and how unlike the attackers they are in position to clear the ball.

You know the last point might even allow usefulness for attackers with better movement. They'd be the ones able to drift in behind the defence and make a difference rather than just any player as it currently is. It wouldn't be that attacking would be impossible and defending would be easy it would simply mean that you had to be more canny as an attacker. Try to disrupt organised defences with tall/strong players, by putting more players in the box to attack and disrupt the defence or by using more intelligent forwards. Personally i think that this is something PES does better than FIFA. I'm not really holding my breath on the last point as idyllic as it sounds to me to have a game where you battled to score.
 
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Didn't they say stats weren't taking effect in 10? In 11 I notice a small difference, maybe in my head only, between lower league players and everyone else. They don't cut back quite as fast, still really fast but not as fast. There isn't enough difference in stats, a difference of 10 stat points makes little to no difference.
 
kobayashi said:
Now my point in all of this is that despite the significant change in his ratings. Ronnie still in FIFA 10 moves at lighting speeds in terms of his turning, momentum etc.. As you could see from the real life clips, not just the whole process of how inertia is no existent almost in FIFA 10, 11, stats are severely poor at representing players movement. I could go on about weak foot usage when dribbling etc.. etc. but i hope this comparison shows where EA have gone so wrong in the past with REPRESENTING how a player should move.

As you can see the recent FIFA's do not illustrate a even basic representation to how Ronaldinho moves. Stat values aren't replicating a significant difference like they should be doing and could do!
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Exactly. That's why I can't enjoy Fifa as much as I used to enjoy PES on PS2.
 
It seems that stats on passing has more to do with how hard the pass is instead of accuracy errors (which IMO is at least as important as power).

92de4176-7f90-426e-9a1c-c1fcad8d5f91.jpg


Recapture this
 
@ Glen,

Your video misses the point of the momentum argument. Human reaction means the players on the pitch will have a "form" of momentum that is a human reaction time to what they see. IMO the bigger issue is with human vs CPU. That's when the momentum is non existant and results in very jarring situations that have nothing to do with football and are pure, poorly designed, gaming solutions to combat human intelligence. Adding momentum in human vs human matches would result in players knowing how they should or shouldn't defend / attack with the selected player as the momentum would differ per player (Messi vs Carra).
 
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