FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

So have the last 20 where everyone has been absurdly cynical about anything they possibly can, repeating the exact same points and bonding as a group via bitching. You included. Even if this was a bit much for you, at least the point was to get towards trying to improve the game.
 
Reading the posts about laws of physics etc i think that except 2 or 3 things that we want in fifa and can be easily done, i suspect that for other things we want them to implement in the game maybe we have to wait for next gen consoles,ps4,xbox 720 whatever...some aspects of the game need not only better coding but maybe more powerful hardware too to work on them ...just a thought
 
What about that guy who told magazines that his game was good, eh? What a smug Cnut. Fuck da police. Etc.
 
Klash,

I think we all agree that the attributes aren't used properly. If you're going to have a 1-99 scale (or essentially 50-99 for PES, or whatever) then you have to make sure the extremes are very different if you want to be able to describe a difference between players within that range.

I'm sure someone said that FIFA works with bands of 5 anyway? That it only really works on a 1-20 level? Even then the difference between each point is far too subtle, not least because what those attributes do (passing accuracy) doesn't have the effect we would expect anyway.

Nerf,

I think maybe the momentum needs to be more directionally influenced too. There should be a heavier penalty for turning 180 than there is. You should still have decent responsiveness going left or right, but if you're facing the wrong way you should get nailed (comparatively) if you aren't moving that way. That should encourage back-pedalling, and should make it easier to shepherd an attacker into the corner.
 
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romagnoli said:
What about that guy who told magazines that his game was good, eh? What a smug Cnut. Fuck da police. Etc.
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:CONFUSE::CONFUSE::CONFUSE::CONFUSE::CONFUSE:

romagnoli said:
Klash,

I think we all agree that the attributes aren't used properly. If you're going to have a 1-99 scale (or essentially 50-99 for PES, or whatever) then you have to make sure the extremes are very different if you want to be able to describe a difference between players within that range.

I'm sure someone said that FIFA works with bands of 5 anyway? That it only really works on a 1-20 level? Even then the difference between each point is far too subtle, not least because what those attributes do (passing accuracy) doesn't have the effect we would expect anyway.
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Thank god, your back with us :)

YES, i do feel the ratings system is pretty good for PES and i think EA would only benefit by copying them. Also maybe re thinking attributes such as dribbling for example. The way PES breaks it into two parts with accuracy and speed, along with passing being broken up into four parts does seem to further the individuality for me.

There's room for improvement with PES system but for now since FIFA's is so shit, i think it's best just to straight copy their attributes philosophy. FIFA will only go forward that way.

It's not said enough but the issue with FIFA attributes is that over the years many attributes where setup and put in with little or no intention to affect the gameplay. I mean with the vision, compose attributes etc.. What have they ever done or made any effect since FIFA 07? It's like they where put in for the sole purpose of certain players would have a high overall, so kids would moan that "Oh, this player is overrated, underrated". Etc..

I mean with PEs it hits you that every single attribute is put there for a reason to actively affect the gameplay. With FIFA, some of them are there for seemingly no reason whatsoever apart from to boost overalls. Again I'm talking mainly things like composure, vision etc..
 
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Some of the attributes affect OVR a lot more than others too, I think. Which is true of the gameplay too.

Hopefully Placebo's insider was wrong and there will be sliders. They weren't in the E3 build that we played, but then they wouldn't be - some clown would screw them up and one of the booths would have an absolutely ridiculous version of the game.
 
romagnoli said:
So have the last 20 where everyone has been absurdly cynical about anything they possibly can, repeating the exact same points and bonding as a group via bitching. You included. Even if this was a bit much for you, at least the point was to get towards trying to improve the game.
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Same old patronising Rom.

Having done an engineering degree, inertia and momentum aren't new to me. But really, if you want to improve the game why aren't you having this lengthy discussion in the gamechangers forum where EA might actually be listening?
 
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romagnoli said:
Klash,

I think we all agree that the attributes aren't used properly. If you're going to have a 1-99 scale (or essentially 50-99 for PES, or whatever) then you have to make sure the extremes are very different if you want to be able to describe a difference between players within that range.

I'm sure someone said that FIFA works with bands of 5 anyway? That it only really works on a 1-20 level? Even then the difference between each point is far too subtle, not least because what those attributes do (passing accuracy) doesn't have the effect we would expect anyway.
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Another small but essential thing that's needed regarding the attributes is a better way of displaying them.

Something like a graphical representation to vaguely show a player's strengths and weaknesses at a glance (think PES' hexagon). Would also like to see this instead of overall ratings on the team selection screen.

Then, a simple thing such as having different ranges of attribute numbers in different colours if you look at the in-depth profile of the player - in PES, a player's best attributes stand out straight away.

Of course this is a moot point if the attributes don't make much impact anyway.
 
Rob,

We have made a strong point of talking about how attributes are displayed, and how walls of white on black make it impossible to just scan a player's bio - you have to look at each stat one or two at a time. It's a mare. We've told Simon Humber about this a few times now and I think he gets what we mean. Fingers crossed but there wasn't anything like that in the E3 build.


Jamezinho said:
Same old patronising Rom.

Having done an engineering degree, inertia and momentum isn't new to me. But really, if you want to improve the game why aren't you having this lengthy discussion in the gamechangers forum where EA might actually be listening?
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It was a bit much for you. I didn't say too technical. If it was just the right amount of everything then you wouldn't have had a problem, right? No. It was too overinvolved and too much of a tangent for you. Too boring, probably. But it's all forming opinions and points of argument that can then be collected and handed in to the devs. I'll be doing that based on what we talked about.

What will you be doing with your thoughts? Just posting them in here and not trying to do anything with them? A bit much, or sod all as long as you've got somewhere to go and have a good moan?
 
Jamezinho said:
Same old patronising Rom.

Having done an engineering degree, inertia and momentum aren't new to me. But really, if you want to improve the game why aren't you having this lengthy discussion in the gamechangers forum where EA might actually be listening?
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He's done that to death. talking about changes is one thing. EA changing the game is and entirely different thing!
 
Think someone said that's what they noticed when they did some tinkering. Think it was how the OVR changed when they tweaked an attribute up 2 pts to 85, rather than two attributes up 1 pt? That seems to ring a bell.
 
Hmm, no, I don't think that's related. That's not how the OVR calculation works. It weights attributes in importance and only includes relevant attributes. That doesn't prove anything about bands of five.
 
I think they tried one or the other as an increment of 5 and it caused an increase of 1 to OVR. You're probably right though.

How does the Creation centre do things?
 
The OVR is just a very basic calculation from selected attributes, which have been weighted. So the OVR for a striker might be (e.g.) 20x Finishing plus 10x Shot Power plus 5x Volley and so on, with the total then divided. It goes purely off the numbers in the database, it's in no way a representation of how the game uses those numbers.

So if you upped Finishing by two, of course it would be more likely to raise a striker's OVR than if you upped Finishing by one and Marking by one. And if you incremented it by five, that might just push the average score over from being rounded down to one whole number to instead being rounded up to the next whole number. That's all.
 
Yeah, I think it took that into account. But I'm going by a vague recollection of someone trying it out for a defender on marking and tackling, and the idea stuck in my head as proven when that isn't necessarily the case. I'd have thought you'd remember if it was mentioned in here and carried any weight, since I think you were one of the guyswho wanted 1-20 ratings or similar.
 
I don't get why both games have the 1-99 scale if they refuse to use the full range available to them.

You rarely seem to see an attribute below 50... Are they worried they'll insult a player if they rate them as being shite at something in the game?...

There's plenty of players in FM, even in the top divisions, who have attributes of 5/20 or less in some areas.
 
For what it's worth, my brother in-law and I played some 2v2 FIFA the other night at a mate's place. Now we were all FIFA players exclusively until this year when my brother in-law and I moved to PES.

The first thing we noticed was how SLOW the passing felt on FIFA. Even with fully maxed out power meters, the ball would too often trickle along. We changed settings to semi assisted passing and manual through balls but no change.

I'm sure all of us here would love both games to be great and we're not bagging certain features just for the sake of it. But going back to play PES at my place, it felt so much more like a real football game and that when something went wrong on the pitch, it was my fault and represented by a realistic mistake, NOT by A.I. or turning circle, or ball movement as was happening in FIFA. Now that's my opinion, but I think PES is miles ahead in actual gameplay and player dribbling/movement/first touch.
 
Hmm, a bomb has gone off. I don't want to rekindle a doused fire, but I think the whole 'momentum'/'inertia'/whatever debate is pretty key so it would be nice to get somewhere on it. It's important to discuss these things and to work them out to reach an understanding, and, not only that but to make sure that things are explained succintly, clearly, and palatably to the community and EA. If we assume that the feedback in the community can alter the game (and there is strong evidence, with eg. tactical defending) that it can, then we need to just push as hard as we can, and as efficiently as we can to make that change happen. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of people in this thread agree on the problem (to differing degrees or, perhaps with different semantic angles. It's really easy to get into disagreements on forums (I should know) when in fact the parties agree pretty much wholly, because of misunderstandings.

We need to get the feedback right, it needs to be clear why we need it and clear what is wrong. Not only does it need to be shown to be unrealistic in FIFA, but it needs to be clear how important this is for the game to improve. EA need to know exactly why this change that we think is so important should be made, when so few of their casual fans even notice anything is remotely odd. Even if they do notice something is fishy, they are unlikely to see what it is.

I see it as four particular issues. I think it's easy to overcomplicate this and want something incredibly clever, footplanting, muscle calculations, friction on the pitch and so on. I've looked pretty closely at replays of the old PES games, the FIFA games, the new PES games, and there is nothing amazingly different going on in PES. It's not like there isn't skating, or there isn't some really dodgy stuff going on with the leg movement to make the animations work: but PES has got a reasonably simple and effective way of making the momentum/inertia/touch/reactions feel right.

A mile can be moved by small changes to this area. EA love to over-engineer clever solutions, and that might be nice in a years time, but that won't do right now. There isn't long for FIFA 12, but there is time which just might be enough to take a bite out of this problem.

A big step would be made by increasing how long it takes to accelerate and decelerate, making the players feel more weighty through turns, and differentiating ball control more (in terms of, more difficult turns (ie, higher angles, or worse ball context), and the player), and delaying the AI more.
 
Yes - agreed. In particular, giving the AI slightly longer reaction times (and preferably stat dependent) so that you can buy a yard of space before the defender is on you. FIFA at the moment either allows you to have a break on the opponent and run away for 50 metres untouched or the defender and goalkeeper react immediately. Neither of which is realistic.
 
romagnoli said:
Placebo - why don't you do something else for a bit then?

Momentum in the game is a big fucking issue as those of us who care about the gameplay will attest. It's something that needs to be sorted out and if we don't talk about it, or there are significant misconceptions about what the problem is then it's something that won't be dealt with. On a personal note it was painful to read some of what was being said too. So I talked about it. If you find that embarrassing then I'm sorry to hear that on one level, but on another, I don't really care. Far better to talk about the issues with the game, even if it means having to go over the basics of how the universe works, then duck out for fear of upsetting someone who isn't big on gameplay anyway.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Nothing wrong with pointing out what's wrong in a game. It is needed to help the devs improve the game further, and iron out bugs etc.

This is a discussion thread and there's a reason it is named so. Everyone should know there's a chance of getting into an argument/debate almost every time we post, since we all have our own opinions. No problem with that as long as its kept respectful.

The Rom-Glen debate happened to be quite a long one, maybe tedious to some. Guys who don't care about such can always skip it.

I am one who cares about inertia/momentum and think it is lacking severely in Fifa. If it was properly implemented, I believe it would have quite an impact on the game. This is something many of us have been asking for since Fifa 10, I think.

Problem here is, EA are creating this issue. They say they listen, have GameChangers, etc but tbh they do let some of the GameChanger's down. They go through all the hard work to try and have a positive impact on the game. They try their best to make Fifa a better game, something as close as possible to real life football, only for EA to respond with fluff. For example, at this point in time, I could care less about Impact Engine. There are football basics that need to be addressed before we dress it with all the yummy sauce. Let the players move like their real life counterparts to begin with. The last thing I want to see is players moving on the pitch like they're moving in space.
 
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Wow just had a quick read through our Physics lesson, I hope there isn't a homework assignment I speed read most of it.. :P

I guess the main issue is it's not there in any real sense and added to that the AI use Jedi mind tricks to know what you are going to do, which all adds up to an unrealistically quick mess at times..

Thanks for the replies on the 1-3 issues, last heads up for those that have not responded, I can't promise anything but I do know they will get on a Dev's desk..

Also I'll be sending them as is, with your moniker, I trust that's OK...
 
Nick my three biggest issues would probably be:

1. Apply error on ever ball touch (Unique Touches™). The better ball control a player have, the better chance of having a good touch in length and direction. One area where this would make a big difference is when a player is running full speed with the ball. In real life you don't make perfect touches all the time, sometimes it might get a little short, making the next touch harder to get right unless you slow down a little etc. If Walcott had FIFA touches he would dominate premier league, but in real life he sometimes have problem with his touches when he tries to keep them shorter. This also applies to tricks with the trick stick, error should be applied to the outcome to make them more realistic and not feel like something from a football game from the 90's.

2) The whole momentum/inertia thing. FIFA 08 had it better, PES also and I think the latest Top Spin also had an OK feeling in the momentum department. This includes acceleration too, there can't be such a short time between standing still and top speed.

3) Less scripted saves from the keepers. It seems like they are applying pretty much the same force all the time for every specific save type. It becomes so extremely predictable and is one of the things that make this game boring so quickly.

Bonus) There should be no lock limit on how many players that can challenge for the ball, PES can do it so there is no excuse (rewrite this part if it has a bad solution, it's worth it). And if I "Super Cancel" close to the ball I should not lose my chance to attack the ball to a team mate that is close by, both should still be able to attack it.



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On the whole Momentum thing that has been going on in here - I think it's only Glen that has another view of it, so I'm not sure we have to go much deeper in this discussion (no offence Glen). To me, the easiest way for the Dev team to know what to do is to boot up FIFA 08 and mess around like in my video so that they get a feel of how it used to be. FIFA 08 wasn't perfect in this department, but they could try to make it work similar and improve upon it. I would guess most of it is already in the game but maybe tweaked down a lot. One thing I really would like to see is that off the ball movement is as responsive as in FIFA 08 and not so oil tanker-like as in FIFA 10 (and I guess FIFA 11). In FIFA 08 the player stops quicker and fight the momentum to change the direction, but in FIFA 10 the stopping part is extremely slow and "floaty". FIFA 08 was more explosive I guess.
 
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romagnoli said:
Yeah, I think it took that into account. But I'm going by a vague recollection of someone trying it out for a defender on marking and tackling, and the idea stuck in my head as proven when that isn't necessarily the case. I'd have thought you'd remember if it was mentioned in here and carried any weight, since I think you were one of the guyswho wanted 1-20 ratings or similar.
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Definitely wasn't mentioned in here. I wouldn't be massively surprised if Attributes were treated in twenty bands of five, but the OVR couldn't possibly be an indication either way.
 
Rob92 said:
I don't get why both games have the 1-99 scale if they refuse to use the full range available to them.

You rarely seem to see an attribute below 50... Are they worried they'll insult a player if they rate them as being shite at something in the game?...

There's plenty of players in FM, even in the top divisions, who have attributes of 5/20 or less in some areas.
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Agreed. if only FM guys made a 3d game? as in a fifa/PES footy game
 
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