FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

[StuartCulli]

It seems that stats on passing has more to do with how hard the pass is instead of accuracy errors (which IMO is at least as important as power).

Spoiler

Recapture this

 

[romagnoli]

@ Glen,

Your video misses the point of the momentum argument. Human reaction means the players on the pitch will have a "form" of momentum that is a human reaction time to what they see. IMO the bigger issue is with human vs CPU. That's when the momentum is non existant and results in very jarring situations that have nothing to do with football and are pure, poorly designed, gaming solutions to combat human intelligence. Adding momentum in human vs human matches would result in players knowing how they should or shouldn't defend / attack with the selected player as the momentum would differ per player (Messi vs Carra).

Exactly. If reaction times are instant then, whether players had the momentum of lightbikes or oil barges you wouldn't be able to open up any distance between you and the opponent because your acceleration, velocity and displacement would all be identical. See the FIFA 12 contain vid.

By increasing momentum you make it easier for a defender to stay with an attacker via reaction to what the attacker does (opening up space to increase the CPU reactions to something more than a billionth of a second), but you also make a clever pass or a clever run against a flat defence more dangerous. It also means that because there is that reaction time window for momentum to differ, an attacker can pull a defender around. The defender now has more reason to try and pre-empt an attacker's moves and an attacker has more to gain from tricking a defender.

 

[_anderson]

Like I already said, it's a deliberate gamedesign-decision by EA in order to have a super-responsive and pick-up-friendly game.

They won't change that because of us who want a realistic model.

This. Isn't it obvious?

Oh btw, I thought momentum was something different from inertia? And what we're talking about here is inertia only?

 

[romagnoli]

Inertia is the resistance to change in momentum. They're interlinked.

 

[BobbyBox]

Well done gab on those videos, I think they speak for themselves just highlights the frustration with ea. They could easily make the best football game, but they either don't listen to the essentials that need to be fixed or they do try and fix it but dumb down what they are implementing and don't do it right.

 

[_anderson]

Inertia is the resistance to change in momentum. They're interlinked.

Oh ok, Wikipedia made it clear

 

[_anderson]

Well done gab on those videos, I think they speak for themselves just highlights the frustration with ea. They could easily make the best football game, but they either don't listen to the essentials that need to be fixed or they do try and fix it but dumb down what they are implementing and don't do it right.

Or they're looking to please a different kind of public..

 

[kobayashi]

Exactly. That's why I can't enjoy Fifa as much as I used to enjoy PES on PS2.

Not just that it makes the game predictable and boring, there less skill required when every player reacts and plays the same. It means you don't have to alter your thinking and you can just carry on playing the same way as you do. Take PES 6 and 2009 which were not great games and pretty arcadey. The individuality did add to the enjoyment and skill needed to play those games since you did alter your thinking to an extent when playing. Not as much as PES 5, 3 or 4 although.

I think the underlying problem is that the animations have been built and put together with their transitions in such a generic manner that the stats set dosen't generate hardly any significant variables to player movement.

It's like they make the movement animations first with all the transitions and all the sexy stuff, then try and add the stat effects in after. To explain what i mean;
You see those tech videos of the all blue or all red players just like in FIFA 12 where they are demonstrating the precision dribbling turn radius. What it seems as if they do is spend all the time creating the animations for what they want, getting to run smoothly and perfectly fluidly. Then after it's all finished and organized, try to add stat variables on top of it. The BIG problem there is this method means all you can really do is just slow down the animation process to show the difference between dribbling attributes from 40-99. If you wanted to show how the players weak foot frequency would alter how he dribbled with the ball, so someone like Robben who never uses his right would dribble exclusively on his left. You HAVE to implement and test it from the very beginning.

I, along with many others realized that the passing stat only really affected the power of the pass rather than accuracy, what I find most interesting it fits in with my theory about how stats are implemented it fifa. They are an after effect of the animations, rather than what PES seems to do which is in that game the stats generate the movement. This is why it seems the pes animations seem much more rigid. making PES smooth is the VERY LAST thing Konami do. They spend all the time making sure the function is tied in with the stats and dosen't freak out with all the variables when generated.

Funny, when you look at it this way despite FIFA obviously having the much better tech. PES much must be ten times as hard to program compared for fifa when the functions are built in those respective manners.

 

[nerf]

It would be interesting to see a third movement video with the Arena player's physical attributes all edited down to 1.

 

[kobayashi]

It would be interesting to see a third movement video with the Arena player's physical attributes all edited down to 1.

Yes, i believe it will be the same as is it fro a player rated 60 or 50, just the animations will be a bit slower, the ball will still feel glued to the player.

Also offline with the AI. it's like when attacking they just run into certain zones and when they need a goal they head for the 'red' zone which will guarantee them a goal (45 degree shot across keeper 18-15 yards out) or the 'crossing zone' where they deliver that cross where you can do nothing to prevent them from scoring.

 

[glen]

@ Glen,

Your video misses the point of the momentum argument. Human reaction means the players on the pitch will have a "form" of momentum that is a human reaction time to what they see. IMO the bigger issue is with human vs CPU. That's when the momentum is non existant and results in very jarring situations that have nothing to do with football and are pure, poorly designed, gaming solutions to combat human intelligence. Adding momentum in human vs human matches would result in players knowing how they should or shouldn't defend / attack with the selected player as the momentum would differ per player (Messi vs Carra).

Thats a fair point. Playing 1v1 or clubs you have simulated delay (which is what we are talking about. You can dress it up with animations or model movement but ultimately its a delay in response from controller input and what you see on the screen)

I think you are very much right. The AI understands the game movement better than we do and has even with a virtual control pad much higher levels of input fidelity than we do and thats a problem very much aligned with momentum and inertia.

Inertia is the resistance to change in momentum. They're interlinked.

Technically no.

But seeing as we live on a planet with considerable gravity and friction and is what we play football on, i'll let you have that one

It would be interesting to see a third movement video with the Arena player's physical attributes all edited down to 1.

Yeah it would, I don't believe for a second 1 means 99 less than 100 in FIFA though. It feels more like 50% of 100 than 1.

 

[romagnoli]

Technically no.

But seeing as we live on a planet with considerable gravity and friction and is what we play football on, i'll let you have that one

That, and also seeing as they're interlinked.

Momentum and inertia are far deeper than merely controller response delay. It isn't dressing things up. You can have extremely responsive controls in a game that involves a lot of momentum. They are only the same if the game isn't coded to differentiate between the two.

 

[glen]

I think the underlying problem is that the animations have been built and put together with their transitions in such a generic manner that the stats set dosen't generate hardly any significant variables to player movement.

I would agree with this. Its simple to understand. Finite animations lead to a much smaller amount of outcomes visually and in practice.

It's like they make the movement animations first with all the transitions and all the sexy stuff, then try and add the stat effects in after. To explain what i mean;
You see those tech videos of the all blue or all red players just like in FIFA 12 where they are demonstrating the precision dribbling turn radius. What it seems as if they do is spend all the time creating the animations for what they want, getting to run smoothly and perfectly fluidly. Then after it's all finished and organized, try to add stat variables on top of it. The BIG problem there is this method means all you can really do is just slow down the animation process to show the difference between dribbling attributes from 40-99. If you wanted to show how the players weak foot frequency would alter how he dribbled with the ball, so someone like Robben who never uses his right would dribble exclusively on his left. You HAVE to implement and test it from the very beginning.

Npt sure about this to be honest. What it does illustrate is that the stats band while conviently 1-100 based isn't diverse enough. With such little scope its the reason most players feel the same IMO.

Funny, when you look at it this way despite FIFA obviously having the much better tech. PES much must be ten times as hard to program compared for fifa when the functions are built in those respective manners.

Honestly, it's a diservice to either game to comapare them in such abstract ways and it makes no difference to anyone one whether Jai San had a day off or Steve Smith did.

 

[glen]

That, and also seeing as they're interlinked.

No they aren't. Mathmatically they aren't. They are composite forces applied to mass. Inertia is based on resistance of motion with friction. Its not a constant though.

Momentum and inertia are far deeper than merely controller response delay. It isn't dressing things up. You can have extremely responsive controls in a game that involves a lot of momentum. They are only the same if the game isn't coded to differentiate between the two.

It is controller response delay, how can it be anything else, sure you get an animation that runs longer or a player takes more steps because its physically impossible to move a given way.

But what that really is and what it always will be is a delay in controller response. I say turn left and then over a space of time a player does that.

I am not disagreeing this is a bad thing, but its very easy to get wrong if you cant "see" why the player isnt moving how you want. This is the problem for me, I don't think there is in FIFA a natural method to show this at present.

We all understand that acceleration and deceleratio, shifting mass has equal and opposite forces. Do the two button controller crown understand that though? Will they stick with it?

I would rather a much more organic feeling game as we all would but I do question whether or not its actually implementable in FIFA. And in a wider scope how do you realistically condense real momentum in to 15 minute games.

Not disagreeing with just want to see how this could actually work in FIFA.

 

[Gab_]

No they aren't. Mathmatically they aren't. They are composite forces applied to mass. Inertia is based on resistance of motion with friction. Its not a constant though.



It is controller response delay, how can it be anything else, sure you get an animation that runs longer or a player takes more steps because its physically impossible to move a given way.

But what that really is and what it always will be is a delay in controller response. I say turn left and then over a space of time a player does that.

I am not disagreeing this is a bad thing, but its very easy to get wrong if you cant "see" why the player isnt moving how you want. This is the problem for me, I don't think there is in FIFA a natural method to show this at present.

We all understand that acceleration and deceleratio, shifting mass has equal and opposite forces. Do the two button controller crown understand that though? Will they stick with it?

I would rather a much more organic feeling game as we all would but I do question whether or not its actually implementable in FIFA. And in a wider scope how do you realistically condense real momentum in to 15 minute games.

Not disagreeing with just want to see how this could actually work in FIFA.

But I think it was there in FIFA 08. Without the ball the movement is even more responsive than in FIFA 10, even though there is more momentum. The bad part in FIFA 08 was that they didn't cheat with the animations when running around doing stuff with the ball. So if you pressed shoot when it was impossible (because of feet position) the player would take a couple of more steps to being able to do it. They could still cheat as in FIFA 10 but apply the momentum on the movement, the cheating is just a little bit of feet repositioning to being able to perform the action more quickly.

 

[glen]

But I think it was there in FIFA 08. Without the ball the movement is even more responsive than in FIFA 10, even though there is more momentum. The bad part in FIFA 08 was that they didn't cheat with the animations when running around doing stuff with the ball. So if you pressed shoot when it was impossible (because of feet position) the player would take a couple of more steps to being able to do it. They could still cheat as in FIFA 10 but apply the momentum on the movement, the cheating is just a little bit of feet repositioning to being able to perform the action more quickly.

I would agree with that.

But shielding and hard stops for example in those two games are amazing (the WC game suffers from them as well but has slower position response)

it appears in FIFA 11 they will let you issue the command but but took the choice to give you a duff wrong foot shot/pass. Its not right but it "feels" responsive because something happens. I don't like it personally but can understand (but not necessarily agree with the choice they took).

Interestingly 08 and 09 were moaned about because of responsiveness in the EA forums. I can't be certain but my guess is that 08 the responsiveness was a constant where as it should be contextual. In real life a player can tweak each muscles resistance in milliseconds but in FIFA you are dealing with very limited structures in terms of bodies.

Now if they can look to use the impact engine to apply more meaningful body articulation and stress then we could well see some amazing things in the next couple of years.

It irks me because realistically its a larger myriad of player movement that needs to represented, just carte blanche adding momentum or inertia generically will do nothing for the game IMO.

 

[romagnoli]

No they aren't. Mathmatically they aren't. They are composite forces applied to mass. Inertia is based on resistance of motion with friction. Its not a constant though.

Inertia is the innate resistance of a body to changes in momentum and both are interconnected by mass by Newton's First Law of Motion. Force = inertial mass x acceleration, or the rate of change of momentum (mass x velocity). Unless Evo Web is on the cusp of an almost unprecedented breakthrough in classical physics I don't see how you could say, with a straight face, that the two are not connected in any sense, mathematically or otherwise. I can't see you managing to turn the past 300 years of understanding of the subject on its head!

It is controller response delay, how can it be anything else, sure you get an animation that runs longer or a player takes more steps because its physically impossible to move a given way.

But what that really is and what it always will be is a delay in controller response. I say turn left and then over a space of time a player does that

Ultimately this is why you're struggling with the concept. You're basically describing that period between pressing left and the player completing his movement left as downtime, during which nothing can happen or be changed. But that's not the case. Even if a player struggles to fully shift his body from one side to another during a turn, that doesn't mean he can't then decide to keep going in the initial direction, using that initial slowdown as a feint.

You can see in that video of Ronaldinho dribbling in FIFA 08 that he would often take a slight touch back with one foot and flick the ball again with his other. That second flick can be controllable - you could use that second flick to keep going in your initial direction and then push off to chase the ball again. His feet are being responsive even while his body is still managing the change of momentum. Similarly a defender shifting his weight on the jockey doesn't have to be fully committed to a directional change just because the player has pressed to the other side. He can be responsive to trying to shift his weight back without waiting until he has fully turned around.

There's so much more to it than just a lack of responsiveness. You can have high fidelity of control while still having more momentum - isn't that the case for real footballers after all?

FIFA does already have a basic capacity to make more of this, though in the longer term it should try and focus more detail into how the velocity changes as you turn frequently, and how turning in direction A should impact the effectiveness of an immediate turn in direction B, rather than treating that second turn completely independently. It's an absolute must now that they're trying to make defending more manual.

We all understand that acceleration and deceleratio, shifting mass has equal and opposite forces. Do the two button controller crown understand that though? Will they stick with it?

Anyone who has ever moved in their lifetime is perfectly equipped to understand it. You don't need to understand the theory of Newton's Laws to understand how to move, or why a player running at full pelt needs longer to slow down.

The important thing is that the physics applied to the game is consistent and reliable, rather than applied some times and not others based on what animation is used.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

I actually considered 09 to have the best balance to reaction and movement. 08 was too harsh (as Gab mentioned, it didn't cheat) whereas 09 continued to principle of footplanting. This enabling more skillfull players(footballers) to use their momentum, and quicker replacing of the stance/feet to wrongfoot a slower defender. They went a step too far with 10 (with the introduction of 360 dribbling removing worthwhile footplanting) leading to poor animations and frequent skating. For 11 they seem to have "fixed" it by upping the amount of stepping animations creating less "skating". However with adding more/faster animations they, I guess, had to make the game even more "responsive" to keep it speed and animations balanced.

Seeing as they lost the momentum princple 2 versions ago, they have given themselves far more freedom for an easy fix with regard to AI and combating player intelligence, resulting in very very frustrating AI reactions that have no basis in reality.

It's odd, as I notice how slow some of my defenders get back up to speed when having to turn and chase an attacker, but the "improved" defensive AI they introduced in 11 seems to be little more then giving the AI carte blanche to stop you and disregard the physics built into the engine when needed.

 

[glen]

Inertia is the innate resistance of a body to changes in momentum and both are interconnected by mass by Newton's First Law of Motion. Force = inertial mass x acceleration, or the rate of change of momentum (mass x velocity). Unless Evo Web is on the cusp of an almost unprecedented breakthrough in classical physics I don't see how you could say, with a straight face, that the two are not connected in any sense, mathematically or otherwise. I can't see you managing to turn the past 300 years of understanding of the subject on its head!

I cant remember the last time Newton was in space/low gravity or indeed a vacum with *limited gravity.....

Force = movement in equal and oposite directions......that is not "inertia"

There has to be a resistive force for inertia..... like the executive toy balls......in that case its gravity and momentum loss through mass. They are obviously not perpetual.

Inertia is actually not the problem with FIFA or sports games in general.

Its because the grip (friction) is predetermined a player can push off or move at the same speed everytime.

In the real world other than sliding tackles humans naturally balance, tense and move how they intend. The problem is usually fatigue, choice or grip related (skill naturally plays a part) in why they over run the ball, walk it out of touch or dont hit it cleanly.

I have to say that its only in chasing balls is mometum that apparent in football. Messi's agility is in the fact he has balance and can pre empt the weight transfer and compensate so quickly. It is down to muscle strenght versus momentum ( i refuse to use inertia as that should be on the whole reserved for things like sliding tackeles etc)



Whilst inertia is present, in a footballing context I can apply more than normal force to counter act it with enough grip (friction) this is why sliding tackles in the wet go much longer as you know.

Ultimately this is why you're struggling with the concept. You're basically describing that period between pressing left and the player completing his movement left as downtime, during which nothing can happen or be changed. But that's not the case. Even if a player struggles to fully shift his body from one side to another during a turn, that doesn't mean he can't then decide to keep going in the initial direction, using that initial slowdown as a feint.

Im not struggling with the concept, merely saying that FIFA doesnt show you why a turn doesnt happen.

Lets remember that no AI model has "weight" no AI model has "gravity". So what we get is programmers version of the universe. The grounds lack "resistance" so again it is fairly obvious for all of the netowian physics they can make their own physics up.

I will be honest and what you describe is easy to do. Add slow dribble latency to a defenders movement and you have exactly what you describe.

Put some animations round it, add 300 milliseconds of delay to a defender and you have that. You have to compensate with the AI and the GK else every dribble after 6 months is a goal but its doable.

This is the thing, you can't bring true universal physics to a game. Firstly you will never get the randomness even in playstation 10 you wont because of how computers work. And we are a long way from playstation Quantum.....

Just to reiterate, what is the difference between issuing a controller input and a delay? Natural or otherwise your just asking for an animation to show that?

You can see in that video of Ronaldinho dribbling in FIFA 08 that he would often take a slight touch back with one foot and flick the ball again with his other. That second flick can be controllable - you could use that second flick to keep going in your initial direction and then push off to chase the ball again. His feet are being responsive even while his body is still managing the change of momentum. Similarly a defender shifting his weight on the jockey doesn't have to be fully committed to a directional change just because the player has pressed to the other side. He can be responsive to trying to shift his weight back without waiting until he has fully turned around.

There's so much more to it than just a lack of responsiveness. You can have high fidelity of control while still having more momentum - isn't that the case for real footballers after all?

FIFA does already have a basic capacity to make more of this, though in the longer term it should try and focus more detail into how the velocity changes as you turn frequently, and how turning in direction A should impact the effectiveness of an immediate turn in direction B, rather than treating that second turn completely independently. It's an absolute must now that they're trying to make defending more manual.


Anyone who has ever moved in their lifetime is perfectly equipped to understand it. You don't need to understand the theory of Newton's Laws to understand how to move, or why a player running at full pelt needs longer to slow down.

The important thing is that the physics applied to the game is consistent and reliable, rather than applied some times and not others based on what animation is used.

Change the pitch friction, introduce muscle fatigue (for foot planting) and variable grip and you might well be on to something.....

 

[romagnoli]

Glen, I'm sorry mate but that first section of your post is utterly broken beyond repair. I don't know if anyone else here did physics at uni but reading that has left teethmarks in my fist.

I cant remember the last time Newton was in space/low gravity or indeed a vacum with *limited gravity.....

It doesn't matter. Force still equals mass x acceleration. Inertial and gravitational mass are essentially equal. Inertia is still how physicists and everyone else in the world refers to the propensity of a body to maintain its momentum, or its resistance to change of momentum. Mass is almost universally seen to be a way of quantifying inertia.

Force = movement in equal and oposite directions......that is not "inertia"

Nor is what I've just quoted based on reality.

Force is not movement in equal and opposite directions. You're getting confused with Newton's Third, which is that 'In collisions between two bodies, for every force there is an equal and opposing force'.

As for the stuff about friction in games. That is not the problem. That's making the solution seem far more difficult than it is. The friction coefficient of the pitch should indeed be a constant for every player. As a result it can be approximated by including it as part of the calculation of players' ability to control their acceleration. Similarly, having to replicate muscle strength etc, is pointlessly overcomplicating the matter. It can and should be approximated as part of a more basic but equally effective calculation. You shouldn't be calculating shot power by measuring how quickly someone's musculature structure can extend his shooting leg, or calculating how high someone can jump based on the forces exerted by their thigh and calf muscles. That's pointlessly overengineering the solution to the problem.

I have to say that its only in chasing balls is mometum that apparent in football. Messi's agility is in the fact he has balance and can pre empt the weight transfer and compensate so quickly. It is down to muscle strenght versus momentum ( i refuse to use inertia as that should be on the whole reserved for things like sliding tackeles etc)

You can say that but it's rubbish! Momentum, and the ability to control its change, is an utterly huge part of football.

Any time a player is wrong footed, or a defence is caught flatfooted, or a player uses bursts of acceleration to beat his man, or feigns to go one way and then moves another, or takes a touch against the direction of a sprinting defender to avoid being tackled, or a fast player is held up by a defender being goalside and not letting him get the chance to build up the speed etc etc... it's all about momentum and the players having to deal with it. So few of those examples naturally occur in FIFA. If a player latches into a throughball despite the defender having a positional headstart, it's because the attacker is faster, not because he is already running and the defender is on his heels.

This, for example, never happens in FIFA, even in those situations where the defender is stood still and not running back 3 or 4 yards behind the defensive line.

YouTube - Xavi Amazing Pass To Pedro Vs Sevilla 16.1.10

 

[Northzzz]

Can somebody fill me on the details behind with the new default camera angle? One thing that annoys me terribly about Fifa currently is their decision to have adapted a default camera angle that allows you to see 75% of the pitch. In turn it means you can see everything you need to, which IMO at least speeds up the gameplay even more so than it is already. The angle being dead on also allows you to perfectly see where you line up in regards to other players doesn't help either but this has been pretty much a norm of all football games.

Anyway long story short, i'm playing Fifa 09 on Dynamic with the radar off and it doesn't help me more than the default camera angle obviously but i enjoy the way that the i actually have to check who's free in my vicinity before i make a pass rather than relying on the radar or the fact i can see perfectly from one side of the pitch to the other.

 

[glen]

i'll reply tormorrow, but will say physics seems to be different between real life players.......because although the same forces act on them they all deal/cope/use it differently......

 

[romagnoli]

That's agility and balance (and, in the real world, mass). They still live in the same universe and have to deal with the same physics. That's what physical attributes are for.

 

[glen]

That's agility and balance (and, in the real world, mass). They still live in the same universe and have to deal with the same physics. That's what physical attributes are for.

well apparently the laws of physics arent as pronounced on footballers or balance/agility is greater than the laws of physics.

Or more likely a human doesnt actually have the ability mechnaically or physically to really push them.....probably because a ligament will snap before a bone not even registering a g......

its all the same thing though......

 

[kobayashi]

I actually considered 09 to have the best balance to reaction and movement. 08 was too harsh (as Gab mentioned, it didn't cheat) whereas 09 continued to principle of foot planting. This enabling more skillful players(footballers) to use their momentum, and quicker replacing of the stance/feet to wrong foot a slower defender.

Hmm i think your right technically that the foot planting was better than 09 but overall i think maybe because of the much better game balance in FIFA compared to 09, FIFA 08 represented player weight, inertia and balance the best. FIFA 09's game balance was astoundingly bad! I mean when you can literally sprint from the kick off with Mario Gomez and score on legendary against Barcelona, there's something wrong.

Come to think of it... that's probably why they started implementing all this ridiculous movement and took out the inertia because they too lazy to put in Defensive AI to stop you it seems.

I would agree with this. Its simple to understand. Finite animations lead to a much smaller amount of outcomes visually and in practice.

Whats harsh is that if depth is implemented into fifa, bye bye pretty animations for a few editions until they have fully implement the function.

Npt sure about this to be honest. What it does illustrate is that the stats band while conviently 1-100 based isn't diverse enough. With such little scope its the reason most players feel the same IMO.

I think the issue is the scale of 1-100 it's that the values don't really represent anything!

On PES 2011 for example with the technique stat, 99-95 94-90 89-85 84-80 79-75 74-70 are all sort of 'landmarks' to designate how good a players technique is.

I noticed on PES, it's really just 99-50. Anything below 50 does nothing really. It's just the same as being rated 50 it's just more to do with season mode and illustrating that player has nope hope in improving that attribute. For example in ML when you sign a player his teamwork goes down to 20 so i takes him a while to link up and ease into the team.

The most crucial being the value '80'. It's the benchmark for a player with good technique. A player with 80-04 technique could turn at angles and player with 79-75 can't. Although with the whole arrows system. If a player with 79 technique, if its on a orange or red he can acheive those turns. A player from 74-70 can't.

To put into perspective.

95 would be for players like Messi, Bergkamp, Maradona, Zidane etc.

90 would represent a player of Faberegas, Xavi. Someone who could move with the ball with almost total control at any angle. Only limitation is taking down balls at impossible angles like the ones above can.

85 would represent Crisitano Ronaldo, Robhino good ball control, better than average players but nothing overtly special. Or player like Alexis Sanchez etc.. Players who are comfortable on the ball but can't bring down really difficult and awkward angles etc...

80 Would represent Thiago (former chelsea player) they typical Continental player from technique renown countries such as Holland, Portugal, Spain, Argentina, Brazil etc.. who's comfortable on the ball

75 would represent, well many English players. Someone like Gareth Barry, Jermaine Defoe Kieran Richardson etc..

70 would represent someone with obviously average technique, if he's a youngsters there's room for improvement. But a older player he's just in general crap on the ball or a keeper.

Below that until 50, Again i think is more of a ML thing where 50-60 would show you that there's isn't any point in bothering to develop that player in that area.

It might just be technique/ball control but i consider to be vital to a player, gives you the definition to what angles you can turn at and what level of you have with your first touch and in general handling the ball. I mean Walcott would be world class if he had good technique. but it's rather meh so he's just a 'good' player.

So that's my definition of stats not doing their job in FIFA, they are just augmented in a liner way with things like ball control barley being affected. FIFA 08 did have landmarks for skill moves with over 85 meaning you could do any skill move but that really was it unfortunatley.

Honestly, it's a diservice to either game to comapare them in such abstract ways and it makes no difference to anyone one whether Jai San had a day off or Steve Smith did.

Well it's just my observation

 

[romagnoli]

well apparently the laws of physics arent as pronounced on footballers or balance/agility is greater than the laws of physics.

Or more likely a human doesnt actually have the ability mechnaically or physically to really push them.....probably because a ligament will snap before a bone not even registering a g......

its all the same thing though......

What?

 

[romagnoli]

Anything that isn't supermassive (black holes) or on the atomic scale is subject to the classical laws of physics. Bees, footballers, jam, oceans, planets, mice... They all operate under the same laws. Agility, balance, acceleration etc are all collective terms for the techniques applied by sportsmen to manipulate their bodies within the same constraints. Messi operates under the same laws, formulae and coefficients of physics as George Elokobi.

 

[Placebo]

Can you two just go get a room or something? It's beyond tedious to read and is completely embarrassing to see two supposed "game changers" bickering in such a manner.

 

[nerf]

I don't even know what you two are talking about any more

Strikes me that there's four things that should be fixed.

1) If CPU defenders are responding to button presses rather than animations, that should change. Either way, they need a more realistic delay when reacting to an attacker's change of direction. But without making the CPU slower of mind when it has the ball.

2) There should be a slightly larger speed penalty for changes of direction. That doesn't in any way mean locking them into un-interruptable animations, it just means a reduction in pace.

3) Acceleration still seems too instant, despite what Gary P would claim, and could be made more gradual.

4) Like everything else in the game, attributes should matter more with regards to all this.

Does that cover it?

 

[romagnoli]

Placebo - why don't you do something else for a bit then?

Momentum in the game is a big fucking issue as those of us who care about the gameplay will attest. It's something that needs to be sorted out and if we don't talk about it, or there are significant misconceptions about what the problem is then it's something that won't be dealt with. On a personal note it was painful to read some of what was being said too. So I talked about it. If you find that embarrassing then I'm sorry to hear that on one level, but on another, I don't really care. Far better to talk about the issues with the game, even if it means having to go over the basics of how the universe works, then duck out for fear of upsetting someone who isn't big on gameplay anyway.