FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

[hitmanuk]

But surely even the most biased of people can see PES has some things which are much better than FIFA.



The manual debate is something which is probably the fundamental which makes people pick one over the other I think, either you think it adds depth (the for crowd) or you think its unrealistic and just silly for Ronaldo to be hitting the corner flag because your thumb didn't hit the correct sweet spot on the analogue.

To respond to the top part mate I'm sure it does but the thing it does worse are the deal breakers for me and completely ruin the game.

the second part regarding manual is the argument from a video game point of view, as that's what it is, I just don't get. I'm playing a game so I want full control and its my skill that puts the ball in the top corner combined very loosely with stats. PES I understand is mostly based on stats and your point of view as an example is: if you are through on goal one on one with messi you should score 9 times out of 10 as that's what real life messi would achieve. That I don't get. if I wanted to see that then I'd just watch messi on TV. When you score on manual its down to your own ability of learning the game and is 100% more rewarding for me

Just mu point of view and I respect other peoples opinion on what they want from a video game.

 

[brunnoce]

Is it just me or does Honda looks like as he got a starhead?
Either that or they made a new lovely generic hair.

Its a starhead!

Hair looks amaizing, and nice to see Mizuno boots in too

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

I understand where you're coming from with playing on manual and I do aswell. What kills it though is the rigidness of the AI and the missile defending. Unless you're playing human v human and both of you playing real football, FIFA can be an incredibly frustrating experience.

If you could actually create space and a gamestyle that varied more than it does, FIFA would be incredible.

But for me it falls down on the areas I mentioned...and the fact most of the goals are 1 v 1's created by the centre backs parting like the red sea, one player sprinting down the wing for 50 metres without being caught, then crossing it for a header...or cutting it back for a tap in or finesse shot that the keeper flaps at.

 

[Jamezinho]

the second part regarding manual is the argument from a video game point of view, as that's what it is, I just don't get. I'm playing a game so I want full control and its my skill that puts the ball in the top corner combined very loosely with stats. PES I understand is mostly based on stats and your point of view as an example is: if you are through on goal one on one with messi you should score 9 times out of 10 as that's what real life messi would achieve. That I don't get. if I wanted to see that then I'd just watch messi on TV. When you score on manual its down to your own ability of learning the game and is 100% more rewarding for me.

But then what is the point in having real players and teams in the game? You may as well just fill Fifa full of generic teams, with generic players, each with the exact same stats. Equally, I don't get why anyone would want a game to be like that?

What about manager mode? What is the point in it if all players are equally capable of the same things?

 

[hitmanuk]

But all players aren't the same. FIFA is still stat based in manual mode just not heavily. I know I couldn't bend the ball in the top corner with Rio Ferdinand as I could with the likes of Messi.

At the end of the day it comes down to balance and the type of game you want to play. I enjoy the whole field being open and playing any kind of ball I want to into space. I also like the visuals the atmosphere and the goalkeepers. All of what I like on FIFA is a disaster on PES as its practicably the opposite in all the circumstances i.e the passing is mostly scripted and so frustrating when it goes to the wrong player, the goal keepers are gash and the visuals and atmosphere have hardly progressed since ps2 days.

I do appreciate that the master league has always been very good and FIFAs defensive is way too over pressured. The only time I will know is when its released or at minimum when I play the demo. I've already played the PES one and it's not for me

 

[Rob92]

Football games needn't be complex to control to offer a challenge.

I prefer a game that tests my tactical thinking and decision making whilst remaining true (on the most part) to football fundamentals - PES offers this.

Games that rely mostly on reactions and your dexterity with the gamepad don't really appeal to me - FIFA falls into this category.

It's down to what you want from your games, but whichever you choose, there are always areas the other will be superior in.
There's only been one year where there was a definitive "best" football game - the PES 2008/FIFA 08 year.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

But all players aren't the same. FIFA is still stat based in manual mode just not heavily. I know I couldn't bend the ball in the top corner with Rio Ferdinand as I could with the likes of Messi.

At the end of the day it comes down to balance and the type of game you want to play. I enjoy the whole field being open and playing any kind of ball I want to into space. I also like the visuals the atmosphere and the goalkeepers. All of what I like on FIFA is a disaster on PES as its practicably the opposite in all the circumstances i.e the passing is mostly scripted and so frustrating when it goes to the wrong player, the goal keepers are gash and the visuals and atmosphere have hardly progressed since ps2 days.

I do appreciate that the master league has always been very good and FIFAs defensive is way too over pressured. The only time I will know is when its released or at minimum when I play the demo. I've already played the PES one and it's not for me

To be honest unless you're playing on manual, the assisted or semi assisted passing on FIFA still hits too many passes to the wrong player. Which is why I think PES manual modifier is a good idea. You can knock the ball around to your team mates but if you want to play a ball into space (which does not happen as often as playing it to feet) you can use the modifier button.

Even real amateur teams can pass to a teammate without missing by as much as you can on manual sometimes lol.

I know it's rewarding to hit a cracker with manual shooting. I've scored a few the last couple of weeks. But the assisted shooting on FIFA is way more accurate than the stat based shooting on PES. Well it was on PES 11 anyway.

 

[gameklip]

One thing that both games have failed on is a short passing game with movement that barca and arsenal play. I can FORCE the hell out of it with FIFA and make it work sometimes but with the top teams it should flow much better.

here's when I force it:

YouTube - Fifa 10 - Pass Pass Pass Pass Goal

from fifa 10

 

[ant0n]

To respond to the top part mate I'm sure it does but the thing it does worse are the deal breakers for me and completely ruin the game.

the second part regarding manual is the argument from a video game point of view, as that's what it is, I just don't get. I'm playing a game so I want full control and its my skill that puts the ball in the top corner combined very loosely with stats. PES I understand is mostly based on stats and your point of view as an example is: if you are through on goal one on one with messi you should score 9 times out of 10 as that's what real life messi would achieve. That I don't get. if I wanted to see that then I'd just watch messi on TV. When you score on manual its down to your own ability of learning the game and is 100% more rewarding for me

Just mu point of view and I respect other peoples opinion on what they want from a video game.

That is spot on...When I play PES I feel like I'm playing Football Manager. When I score in PES it's not really satisfying for me because the stats play too big a role. That for me is the fundamental difference between the two games and it's why I choose FIFA.

 

[ant0n]

To be honest unless you're playing on manual, the assisted or semi assisted passing on FIFA still hits too many passes to the wrong player. Which is why I think PES manual modifier is a good idea. You can knock the ball around to your team mates but if you want to play a ball into space (which does not happen as often as playing it to feet) you can use the modifier button.

Even real amateur teams can pass to a teammate without missing by as much as you can on manual sometimes lol.

I know it's rewarding to hit a cracker with manual shooting. I've scored a few the last couple of weeks. But the assisted shooting on FIFA is way more accurate than the stat based shooting on PES. Well it was on PES 11 anyway.

I don't know about assisted, but on Semi all my passes go where I want them to go if I put enough power on them. Also the manual modifier for me is not necessary. When I play I use Semi-Manual for every control setting and with that you are free to send a man through almost anywhere.

It's well established that assisted on FIFA is horrible, but with semi-manual PES cannot match that.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I'm not sure it's the stats that play too big a role in PES but rather the computer assistance - it's kinda like if you were to take FIFA's assisted, semi, and manual settings, PES would be super-assisted. And this has little to do with keeping to a certain philosophy and more to do with simply poor implementation and programming.

I understand where you're coming from with playing on manual and I do aswell. What kills it though is the rigidness of the AI and the missile defending. Unless you're playing human v human and both of you playing real football, FIFA can be an incredibly frustrating experience.

If you could actually create space and a gamestyle that varied more than it does, FIFA would be incredible.

But for me it falls down on the areas I mentioned...and the fact most of the goals are 1 v 1's created by the centre backs parting like the red sea, one player sprinting down the wing for 50 metres without being caught, then crossing it for a header...or cutting it back for a tap in or finesse shot that the keeper flaps at.

To be fair, if we're going to compare FIFA 12 with PES 2012, the "missile defending" looks to be gone and we've seen some gameplay videos that has shown off what appears to be improved attacking AI.

Your last paragraph is much more important to me: goals in FIFA 11 are not varied enough.

 

[Gab_]

You guys make it sound like PES is about no skill from the user at all, and all about stats/automatic? Gimme a break... timing has always been a huge part of PES and still is.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I don't recall anyone saying PES requires no user skill, just that for a lot of us it's not enough and its implementation can be quite poor.

 

[Ronaldinho_23]

Diego Forlan at Inter

 

[StuartCulli]

Superhuman goalkeepers are gone then.

 

[Monkey See Monkey Do]

Them' Boots!

 

[Rob92]

I guess I wonder why bother with PES or FIFA at all when there are games like FM that rely on tactical thinking and decision making and not user skill with a gamepad? What you seem to be looking for isn't quite what the console gaming experience is about.

After all, PES and FIFA have always competed in the market for games that provide a mixture of user skill on a gamepad and football fundamentals. The problem is that as gaming technology has advanced in improving, among other things, the level of user input, PES has not kept up and its implementation of user input, again among other things, is archaic and quite poor in many areas.

And sure each game will always have areas that it's superior in compared to the other, but this isn't necessarily a sum zero situation here - there is no reason that we have to choose one game or the other; I think most of us would love to have two quality football games to play that offer somewhat different experiences.

The problem is not that people are opposed to the philosophy of PES; the problem is that as of right now, PES's quality is too poor in too many areas.

Comparing PES to FM? Seriously?
Completely different types of game, different genre in fact. I do actually enjoy a bit of FM occasionally (wish they'd up the difficulty though).

If PES is so automated and requires so little user input/skill, why is it that when I play my mates I can usually win comfortably and play good football, while they are unable to maintain a decent spell of possession or threaten my goal?
If what you're saying were true, then surely the games would play out pretty much as they would in real life, due to player stats taking too much of a role in proceedings?

The skill of PES is in areas other than your proficiency with the controller - i.e. your ability to set up the team tactically and play to a gameplan that gets the best out of your players and/or counters the opposition, your decision making and timing on the ball to construct an effective attacking move, your vision to spot runs by teammates, your ability to defend realistically etc.

Even then, there's plenty of aspects which can gain you an advantage if you are a master with the controller - dribbling being one, the L2 modifier manual passing, the new teammate control thing, set pieces etc.

PES' lack of need for manual control (that I find difficult) whilst remaining somewhat sim-like is one of the reasons I like it. As I said, games that rely mainly on controller dexterity are not my thing - I hate COD and pretty much any other shooter for that reason.

 

[StuartCulli]

Do your mates have girlfriends, Rob?

 

[Rob92]

Do your mates have girlfriends, Rob?

Lol?

Is is somehow unusual to have some casual games of PES with your mates now .
It's nothing serious, but we do play to win, and when I go round theirs it's always FIFA, which I lose on heavily most of the time .

But yeah, of the 3 I usually play some PES with, 2 have girlfriends...

 

[Rob92]

Don't mince my words - I wasn't comparing PES to FM, in fact I was contrasting them.

In any case, my point is exactly what you said, that "the skill of PES is in areas other than your proficiency with the controller." Unlike FM, FIFA and PES are meant to be games that combine the skill using the gamepad (i.e. the console gaming experience) with underlying strategy, tactics, and fundamentals of football. Like you noted, PES does a solid job with the latter. PES has some serious issues, however, with the former.

I think what we all want is a game that provides a rewarding experience in both areas of user input and the cerebral side of things. Sadly we don't quite have that yet.

Yeah, sorry about that, re-reading it I can see how I twisted your words.

To an extent agree with you in some respects - the two aspects needn't be mutually exclusive, but currently with the choices we have, they are.
That means the choice of which game to play comes down to what's more important to you.

I don't agree about PES not giving you enough control though - there's plenty of potential for quick thinking and accurate manual passes to give you the an edge, and ball control/first touch etc. is controlled fully by you, as well as off the ball movement and defending. That's more than half of the game.
Just because the actual kicking direction of the ball isn't controlled precisely to the degree by you on every strike of the ball doesn't mean the game is programmed badly and offers you insufficient control.

I've posted about it here before, IMO fully manual control is not the optimum for a game attempting to simulate football - maybe it's against what Seabass and co. are trying to achieve with PES and so they're leaving it out on purpose.

I know that I wouldn't want to be beaten online by some scummy little COD knobhead who knows nothing about football, but has trained himself 10 hours a day for life to be able to have pretty much 100% perfect control over the gamepad.
This happened a lot on FIFA, even (especially?) when searching for manual filtered games.

So for me really, the longer PES stays on it's "assisted" tracks, the better. Gives the thinking man the advantage.

 

[daikirai]

Its a starhead!

Hair looks amaizing, and nice to see Mizuno boots in too

Yea good to see the Mizuno boots in, would like to see them get rid of the EA boots and just add more colors for the rest of the boots personally.
I hate constantly editing every team.

I got lost in the stats/manual debate there, but stats should affect manual passing/shooting, which I think should also be less sensitive than it is now. If I point directly to my right and make a pass, if my player has 30 passing I don't want it going right where I say all the time. Little things like that, there needs to be variation (even in semi/assisted).
Really I think the game needs to be overhauled, work on the CPU method of play, take it from win the ball instantly to...I don't know, actually play a game?
Don't reward bulldozing players and sprinting all around, a sprint is a burst, not a trek up and down the damn field.
Reward VPs for well placed passes (Not the through ball homing missiles) more than goals sprinted from their own end.

I would like to actually play a game when I play with my VP, or against the CPU, not see a swarm of fish chasing after the ball, back and forth, back and forth.

Sure you can force the issue and play properly, but you aren't punished if you don't. It's perfectly acceptable in the general community to be selfish, to not make the simple pass and play someone through, or keep possession. Things like completed passes, possession, tackles, etc don't matter online, what matters is goals, no one online is okay with a draw, they want to score early and often (I'm sure everyone here wants to score but would rather it be because of some great play and not exploitative means).

I was all over the place there, but I've been playing more and noticing random things that frustrate me haha

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

...
To be fair, if we're going to compare FIFA 12 with PES 2012, the "missile defending" looks to be gone and we've seen some gameplay videos that has shown off what appears to be improved attacking AI.

Your last paragraph is much more important to me: goals in FIFA 11 are not varied enough.

I'll wait and see if missile defending is truly gone. Fingers and toes crossed lol

Yeah the goal variation is lacking but it ties back to how the game currently allows you to be bullied around when you play the CPU or when you play online.

Offline I can play a beautiful passing game like Barcelona or Arsenal. I am patient and try to create space for a nice shot or little triangle on the edge of the box. Online it's very hard because of the button lag. I end up getting raped if I try to dribble or pass it around. I find this much easier to attempt on PES and it suits my gamestyle more.

This is my opinion but i think the game almost rewards the forced game and doesn't give an incentive to play a realistic beautiful game. I have a FIFA lounge with 2 mates. One of them always wins but he has basically had the exact same gamestyle since FIFA 06 and keeps scoring the same types of goals but he doesn't care because he calls a win a win. To me that is just boring.

Manual online filters aren't that good because you also had to match the game speed and half length of the other person didn't you? Narrows it down too much. And half the manual players online are pressure junkies and chipped through ball exploiters anyway.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

...

"Manual" has gotten a bad name in this discussion because, in truth, video games in general - from RPGs, to sports games, to action/adventure games, to 1st/3rd-person shooters - are moving in the direction of more manual control. Increased and more accurate user input - that's just the natural evolution of this medium as technology progresses. Increased user input, which manual passing is just at one side of a spectrum, is not a bad thing as long as gameplay is well balanced; as long as other things matter too. ...

Tbh I think the whole PES/FIFA manual debate vs. what Rob wants, a more tactical cerebral experience isn't about manual and controller dexterity. I don't get any joy out of managing to hit a shot 1deg more to the left, whereas I love hitting an Alonso long ball. It isn't really relevant to the experience I'm looking for. For me it's about creating the opportunity against an intelligent opponent, whether online or (mostly) offline. FIFA was a dull slog, which I only made bareble by creating a very attacking formation so I could actually keep possesion in the final 3rd and couldn't easily defend as I had less men at the back. But by balancing the game in that way, every match was just a possesion-vest and counter defending exercise. Not once did I need to drop deep and defend a 1-0 lead.

From what I played of PES11 and the demo you will need to think about those things as they have a real effect on the result. I want my tactical intelligence to mean more than my aiming of the stick, but both should be present.

I'm not completely convinced about PES12 (even though my first reaction was "goodbye FIFA") but it will really depend on whether FIFA12 can offer any meaningfull AI. Which will be very difficult to see in a b$%dy 3min demo!

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

... but it will really depend on whether FIFA12 can offer any meaningfull AI. Which will be very difficult to see in a b$%dy 3min demo!

Agree! You don't really get the AI to back off unless you play at least 6 min halves and preferably a little higher.

That's why FIFA 11 is really hard to judge by the demo alone. You had to force the game just to create a chance.

 

[hitmanuk]

Another way of looking at it is that assisted removes options for you so its less thinking. I think way more on manual as I have far more options. I want to play the ball in the corner where no one is into space to waste time I can. Can I do that on PES? no.. or maybe you can using the modifier but its way to awkward so you don't even consider it you just pass to feet.

 

[adelante]

Rutter should look at FIFA's dribbling animation before he looks at raping more licences.

They are footballers, not slalom skiiers. FFS!

You mean ice-skaters, because that would be the more apt analogy if you're gonna pinpoint the exact issue with FIFA's animations, which is the fact that the series have gotten progressively worse in terms of the players' tendency to turn without proper footplanting.

But when it comes to the basic leg movement and transitions from those into a turn/pass/shot, it remains unmatched. In PES, you have far too many cases where the players' legs would stutter, which is when leg cadence is not aligned with an action. And because even the simplest of animations (eg. leg taking a step forward or the backswing before a pass/shot) can be interrupted, the result is an ultra responsive control system and more "correct" instances where the player is seen using his dominant foot.

Animation skipping is not a compromise that EA is willing to make. But because the game's engine inherently leaves both feet open for any action depending on the user's input timing, EA probably felt the need to lessen the significance of weakfoot accuracy, which is why in FIFA you have situations where the outcome of a weakfooted pass/shot is too accurate (aside from the issue where the frequency of weakfooted actions are already too high).

 

[Rob92]

It does if, as has happened to me regularly with the demo, the game decides your pass should go to a completely different player than the one you intended.

I'm yet to play the PES 2012 demo, but in the year I've owned and played PES 2011, this has very rarely happened.
Used to be a problem with the PES of old (due to 8-directional control) so I'd be surprised if it became an issue once again.

Can't say for definite though having not tried the PES demo yet.

But I thought everyone agreed that if two players of equal overall ability played each other, the one on Assisted would win? So surely you'd still have the advantage even if PES did have a Manual option?

People don't play Manual to gain an advantage. For some it's just a more tactile, involving and rewarding control method, which elevates enjoyment of the game. Going back to one-tap Assisted feels detatched and unsatisfying by comparison.

Fully manual control is very unrealistic, and isn't the way to simulate football.

It would also divide the community and lead to groups of manual "elitists" who think they're better than everyone else and dismissing anything done on assisted.

You are right that in manual vs assisted, assisted would win, but in a manual v manual game, if you have one player with a football brain and another with COD-like controller skills, the latter will come out on top more often than not, even if the game adheres to football theories due to the difficulty of translating your thoughts into actions.

If you really want to force manual on yourself, you can try holding L2 constantly.

Another way of looking at it is that assisted removes options for you so its less thinking. I think way more on manual as I have far more options. I want to play the ball in the corner where no one is into space to waste time I can. Can I do that on PES? no.. or maybe you can using the modifier but its way to awkward so you don't even consider it you just pass to feet.

Holding L2 whilst performing the pass as usual is awkward? Lol.

I often do those manual clearances into the corners to waste time...

 

[Northzzz]

It's made more awkward than it should be with those dastardly PS3 triggers. Then again any game where i have to use them is awkward by default.

 

[romagnoli]

I love the PS3 triggers. I find it far easier to control how much I press them than the 360 ones, which by comparison are too thin and uncomfortable if not fully pressed. It baffles me that people struggle with them - I can only imagine it's because they use their index fingers, rather than their middle fingers, and that their index fingers stop just after the first knuckle.

 

[Rob92]

I don't really understand what's funny about it. Is pressing two buttons more awkward than one button id say it is especially in a situation where you need to be quick.

What's disappointing is that Konami won't implement it. And the amount of times I've attempted to shoot manually scored and then realised it wasn't manual at all the computer did it. Not that manual is the most important thing PES needs as there's loads of issues with it but its certainly up there for me.

What is funny is the amount of PES fanboys who are calling it amazing when its clearly anything but.

That is not awkward in the slightest, the buttons are situated under different fingers.

The shoulder buttons (L1/R1/L2/R2) are operated by your index and/or middle finger, the face buttons and right analog are operated with your right thumb, the left analog with your left thumb.

L2 + X or O is a natural and easy button combination to perform... So I really don't understand your logic and I do actually find it quite funny that you're trying to tell me it's "awkward".