FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

I genuinely have no idea how people struggle with the PS3 triggers. It seems a common complaint, and yet I have no idea why. No idea whatsoever. Either I have weird fingers, everyone else has weird fingers, or they aren't using the pad properly.

It's one of those things I guess. Everyone else seems to agree the 360 triggers are better, and yet I have absolutely no idea why, unless you use your index fingers for the triggers, in which case you're 'doing it wrong'.
 
The PS3 triggers need an outward curve at the bottom (like the 360 triggers) to make them more comfortable to use. Also I find the feel of them a bit mushy. The 360 triggers have a nice, direct feel to them.
 
get giotech add ons for the triggers makes them epic!

485740_101201071443_gioteck-real-triggers.jpg
 
That's the thing. I don't feel the need for an outward lip at all. I got some of those Giotech triggers for free a while back but have omly used them once for about 30 minutes.

My fingers have never, ever slipped off the triggers, and I don't think it's possible for them to if you're using your middle fingers (as intended). I also find the 360 triggers hopeless for judging half presses or the like - they're so thin and uncomfortable to keep at a sustained pressure. I thought analog sprinting was a great idea with the PS3 pad, but when I then had a play with my 360 pad for my PC, I started to see that the triggers for that just aren't fit for the same purposes.
 
Huh, anyone expecting big changes before the actual release is likely to be disappointed - they just gave Wayne Rooney his final copy...
 
I'm trying to get used to have middle finger on the trigger on my left hand. I find it a bit hard on 360 pad, because I want to have the middle finger behind the pad to counter the pressing of the thumb on the stick. On ps3 it's not the same, since you press down on the pad much lower.
 
mfmaxpower said:
I don't get this. Manual critics tend to like to say, like you, that fully manual control is unrealistic, and yet I don't recall ANYONE ever saying they wish for a game built around a fully manual control system. Everyone here wants context and stats to matter. Where we differ is on the level of computer assistance.

Like nerf said, for many of us CPU assistance detracts from satisfaction levels, plus it also means that your play is restricted by the CPU's ability to correctly interpret your intentions, which has proved problematic in both football games on the assisted settings; if I pass to the wrong player, I'd prefer it to be my fault, not the CPU's.

Also, while I agree that a fully manual system, or one that doesn't take stats and context into consideration, is inherently unrealistic, I find it similarly unrealistic that my players are restricted in the types of passing they can attempt; in a real football match, players are free to attempt any type of pass (or shot) they'd like, but any system that depends upon the CPU interpreting your actions to provide assistance is bound to be somewhat restrictive and error-prone. And that's always been the trade-off: assistance for freedom.

Control schemes have little to do with the level of realism and all to do with the level that the CPU aids our play. In fact, it may be better to think of control settings as additional difficulty settings. Nobody is saying that they want a game that doesn't take into account stats and context. We all, I think, want a realistic game. But some of us like to have options for how much the CPU assists (and restricts) our play. So, again, it's not about levels of realism, it's about levels of CPU assistance.

And of course having to press two buttons to initiate a manual pass is more awkward than having to press one, and it's a less than ideal solution for someone who wishes all or most of their passes to be free of CPU assistance.
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When I criticise manual, I don't mean fully manual in the sense that stats don't matter, what I mean is that the concept of constant manual control isn't one that belongs in a simulation based game.

It doesn't replicate real life football technique, "aiming" is not something real footballers really need to do.

When having an attempt on goal, football players don't have to make the effort to "aim" towards the target, they already know where it is - anyone who's played football much can instinctively aim their shots into the corners of the goal without even needing to look, due to their spacial awareness, the top professionals to a great extent.

Same goes for passing and crossing - you see where your teammates are and it's an almost automatic to play the ball to them.

Passes, crosses and shots are very rarely (if ever) missed because of bad aiming - it's technique, skill, body shape etc.

Fair enough, if that's what you want from a game then that's fine, but it's not realistic.
 
wabak said:
http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/hjerpseth-fifaralle-answer-fifa-12-questions/

About time! I've been dying to know what Hjerpseth thinks about Skills in FIFA 12!!!

(why do people like him get to play the game early? do the guys in charge of FIFA actually think the way he plays the game is the way forward?)

Bit disappointed w/ FSB actually.
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LOL, they got the EA hookup and haven't looked back. I've only just returned yesterday, and that was after at least 6 months to a year away. Don't look to them for truly unbiased, critical opinions of the game. Or maybe they are unbiased and just don't know what they're talking about.

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Quick question, that Andrew Wilson guy who's taking over all of EA sports for Peter Moore, it says that he was one of the lead producers (perhaps executive producer) on FIFA 08 (Joe Booth era, potentially the beginning of something great), and then also with the game during it's downturn from 09-now (though Peter Moore was in charge of EA Sports then). Any chance that him taking over could spell better things for FIFA down the road? Or is he probably going to keep pushing the same shit that Rutter and Co. have been directed to push for the past few seasons?
 
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wabak said:
http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/hjerpseth-fifaralle-answer-fifa-12-questions/

About time! I've been dying to know what Hjerpseth thinks about Skills in FIFA 12!!!

(why do people like him get to play the game early? do the guys in charge of FIFA actually think the way he plays the game is the way forward?)

Bit disappointed w/ FSB actually.
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Murkurial said:
LOL, they got the EA hookup and haven't looked back. I've only just returned yesterday, and that was after at least 6 months to a year away. Don't look to them for truly unbiased, critical opinions of the game. Or maybe they are unbiased and just don't know what they're talking about.

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To be fair, that's being a little harsh on the FSB guys. They're just reporting news, which has been little of late.

If anything you should be disappointed with EA, not FSB. AFterall, it's EA that has given hjerspeth early access to the game and the means to report to the community - on bloody tricks of all things - while us GCs have been pretty much ignored and left in the dark these last few weeks.

Trust me, like the rest of us GCs the guys at FSB would surely rather be testing the game themselves and reporting first-hand their impressions rather than having to link to hjerspeth on twitter.

I think I can speak for all the gamechangers - FSB included - as being very frustrated at the moment. That EA gives the likes of hjerspeth early access to discuss tricks while ignoring those of us committed to improving all aspects of the game should reflect poorly on EA, imo, not FSB.
 
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mfmaxpower said:
You must be joking. Of course footballers aim where their shots, passes, and crosses are intended to go! They aim to the right of the wall on free kicks. In a 1v1 situation, a striker may aim to the left of the keeper, maybe with greater precision if he has the time. A corner kick will be aimed toward the front or back of the box. Etc etc etc.

Technique, skill, body shape... these are all aspects of the process of aiming, or directing the ball to go where the player intends. To say that footballers do not aim is to say that they have no intention for what they wish to accomplish. That is only limited in few instances, such as when a defender doesn't care where an emergency clearance ends up. Aiming is simply intention.

Because we are limited to gamepads and joysticks, we are unfortunately left with using language like aiming. But footballers of course aim too, it's just that we tend to break down the elements of that process into things like power, spin, technique, body shape, etc.

Ultimately every pass, shot, and cross made by a footballer has an intention behind it; the way that we convey that intention in these games is through our controller inputs. CPU assistance tries to interpret our intentions and help us if needed (if our aim isn't quite accurate). Some of us would prefer less assistance.
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With manual control, the part of the aiming you're taking control of is basically the player's thinking "where do I want this ball to go?".

Ultimately on shots, be it 1v1 situations, long range efforts, headers or anything, players will always WANT to direct the ball on target. It's not even something a footballer would need to think about, yet manual control makes it a crucial part of the process.

With passes, you're always going to want the ball to find the feet of your recipient or into space for them to collect. There is more need for freedom here so PES includes a manual modifier for if/when the game would limit you too much.

To be able to make your player screw up due to intentionally striking the ball in the wrong direction (via controller input error) is inherently not realistic.

@quiet riot - Congrats, great post.

I'm not criticising FIFA here, just saying that full manual control has no place in a football sim.
If you need full manual control, FIFA provides that, enjoy!
 
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Is it only the full manual players that still stick with FIFA? Or are there semi-assisted people here that still think FIFA offers a more realistic game experience?
 
romagnoli said:
That's the thing. I don't feel the need for an outward lip at all. I got some of those Giotech triggers for free a while back but have omly used them once for about 30 minutes.
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After playing the 360 for a couple of years and then getting a ps3 the triggers felt really poor at first. But after a couple of weeks you don't notice it anymore and they are fine. It also depends on the type of game imo, for racing games where you are constantly holding them in to some degree I find the 360 ones better and you can rest your fingers on the lip.
 
Video games' definition of skill seems to revolve around testing your ability to pull off impossible moves. In 2k top spin 4, people seem to get perfect timing for every shot. In FIFA, people make endless string of perfect passes or a COD-like skill for manual passes. I am no match when it comes to 'test your might' stuff based on my controller skills.

PES on the other hand gives me the ability to actually use my brain in simulating a football match instead of mashing buttons. A slow manual game in FIFA would be good too but then the game fails me on the tactical side and I don't like that! The football simulation side goes away with FIFA.
 
Wdoleq said:
:SHOCK::WORSHIP::BOP: Are you on drugs? Or you just dont know anything about football?
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Oh, we have a funny guy here.

I've watched football from a very early age, and despite not playing to any sort of high standard, I've played a lot of football and know the sport pretty well.
Whenever I've missed a pass or shot in real life, I never go "shit, should have aimed left by a few more inches there"... It's due to my technique being inconsistent, having to stretch, having the ball stuck under my feet, the speed/movement of the oncoming ball etc. (you should get the point)
Aiming (in the sense of manual FIFA) simply does not come into the equation.
 
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From that little interview
Q: Do the skills look like FIFA 11, or are they different in animation?

Some skill animations have changed; overall skills are all kind of different as the outcome due to error touches changes each time.
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Q: Are finesse shots improved this year?

Finesse shots: a lot more error involved so shots aren’t nailed on any more.
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azur said:
Well, i play football too and id probably have that exact reaction. The same reactions when im playing manually.
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You would never aim off target when you shoot... Just as when a cross goes behind for a goal kick or a pass plays a teammate into trouble, it's got nothing to do with where you aimed the ball to go.
 
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I agree with Rob on that "aiming" comment. Whilst you might try and pick out someone with a cross or hit a shot on target, you generally go from instincts and aim for an area (penalty spot maybe for a cross, or near post, far post) and when you shoot you usually aim for one of the 4 corners of the goals.

Semi assisted controls will allow that. I think manual controls offer too much room for error compared to the accuracy you're trying to achieve or for the real life scenario you are trying to simulate.

For example, if I have a 1 v 1 with the keeper and I want to put it just wide of him and sneak it on the inside of the post, I would aim for the general area on assisted or semi assisted and it would go there. If I'm on manual, I have to be much more precise and that level of precision does not correlate to how precise a striker would have to think about aiming in real life.

You can say manual shooting is more rewarding, offers more control and gives you a different and arguably better gameplay experience, but I don't think you can argue that full manual shooting truly represents the aiming process of a real life player. Not to that level of aiming required.
 
adelante said:
You mean ice-skaters, because that would be the more apt analogy if you're gonna pinpoint the exact issue with FIFA's animations, which is the fact that the series have gotten progressively worse in terms of the players' tendency to turn without proper footplanting.

But when it comes to the basic leg movement and transitions from those into a turn/pass/shot, it remains unmatched. In PES, you have far too many cases where the players' legs would stutter, which is when leg cadence is not aligned with an action. And because even the simplest of animations (eg. leg taking a step forward or the backswing before a pass/shot) can be interrupted, the result is an ultra responsive control system and more "correct" instances where the player is seen using his dominant foot.

Animation skipping is not a compromise that EA is willing to make. But because the game's engine inherently leaves both feet open for any action depending on the user's input timing, EA probably felt the need to lessen the significance of weakfoot accuracy, which is why in FIFA you have situations where the outcome of a weakfooted pass/shot is too accurate (aside from the issue where the frequency of weakfooted actions are already too high).
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Good post mate. But I actually meant a couple of animations that really annoy me. Like when a player changes directions on FIFA, especially when the AI is holding possession, they do this strange thing where they turn at 90 degrees but with the outside of their foot. The touch goes too far and often they keep turning back the other way with the outside of the other foot. It looks like someone dribbling around cones and no one would probably ever use one of those touches in a real game, let alone combining them 2 or 3 times in one go.

I can record a video if you don't know what I mean.
 
Played a couple of games on FIFA 11 demo last night and it does look like there's more movement than I previously remember. I found that playing on Broadcast camera gave me a good improvement to gameplay opportunities. I just wish it was a tad more zoomed in.
 
mfmaxpower said:
Oh please, and assistance from an outside party does come into the equation in real life? Sorry but there are no football gods providing a helping hand like the CPU assistance provides in these games.

Assistance from the CPU is, to use your words, inherently unrealistic as well - nothing comparable exists in real life. But CPU assistance is present in video games simply because without it the difficulty level would be too high, at least for beginners and casuals. CPU assistance is a necessary unrealistic add-on; CPU assistance is not present for realism's sake. Just like auto-aim in FPS games, assistance settings in football games are there only to provide varying levels of help and challenge.

There is no positive (or negative) correlation between realism and CPU assistance. Greater assistance does not necessarily equate with greater realism. High CPU assistance simply correlates with less user input. That's it. Nothing more. Max out the CPU's involvement and we become mere bystanders; minimize it and gameplay becomes too difficult (even Manual settings in FIFA are not entirely free of some CPU assistance).

Sorry to burst your bubble but there tends to be lapses in realism when playing with both high and low levels of CPU assistance. You can keep saying that manual settings have no place in a realistic football game, but an argument can conversely be made that too much assistance can be just as unrealistic... unless of course you believe in football gods.
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Do you aim passes with your thumb in real life? It is not assistance, it is a simulation of players' stats. Without these stats, every player would be the same, every game would be the same!
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I agree with Rob on that "aiming" comment. Whilst you might try and pick out someone with a cross or hit a shot on target, you generally go from instincts and aim for an area (penalty spot maybe for a cross, or near post, far post) and when you shoot you usually aim for one of the 4 corners of the goals.

Semi assisted controls will allow that. I think manual controls offer too much room for error compared to the accuracy you're trying to achieve or for the real life scenario you are trying to simulate.

For example, if I have a 1 v 1 with the keeper and I want to put it just wide of him and sneak it on the inside of the post, I would aim for the general area on assisted or semi assisted and it would go there. If I'm on manual, I have to be much more precise and that level of precision does not correlate to how precise a striker would have to think about aiming in real life.

You can say manual shooting is more rewarding, offers more control and gives you a different and arguably better gameplay experience, but I don't think you can argue that full manual shooting truly represents the aiming process of a real life player. Not to that level of aiming required.
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And again, this is a video game - you are always going to have unrealistic aspects when you're meant to be controlling human avatars with a gamepad. It's the nature of gaming.

Analog sprint in FIFA is a form of increased user control and input. Does that make it unrealistic compared to the previous methods of controlling speed? Because personally I think it's unrealistic for players to have only a few speeds that they can move at.

Or what about being able to map a series of linked feints together and initiate them with a simple button combo? How is this high level of assistance any more realistic than FIFA's trick stick?

Or what about having to power-up a shot or pass, or tapping a button multiple times for different types of crosses? Do these "truly represent" the processes of a real life player? No, of course not.

You guys can keep trying to claim a high ground in arguing that one control setting is inherently more realistic than another but the fact of the matter is that you simply have one preference for levels of help than other people do.

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I quit playing full manual in FIFA 11, for passing at least, because I find passing to be terrible in the game and playing manual makes it only worse. But I don't play semi-assisted passing in 11 because it's any more realistic. I do it because I get frustrated by the challenge of passing in the final third.

Likewise, I don't play semi rather than full assisted because it is either less or more realistic. I simply find that assisted makes things too easy, promotes mindless button mashing and ping-pong passing, and just isn't as rewarding an experience.

All control schemes in these games have their pros and cons, their lapses in realism as well as their strengths. Help from an outside force in the shape of CPU assistance has no comparable equivalent in real life, just as the aiming analogy does neither.
 
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mfmaxpower said:
...I simply find that assisted makes things too easy, promotes mindless button mashing and ping-pong passing, and just isn't as rewarding an experience.
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There you go. This is the main reason why anyone has moved to manual and why manual players often advocate the "slow" game speed setting.

Only problem is, you can't force your opponents to play the same way, nor the CPU to use a similar strategy.

I'm not bashing manual mate - I use manual everything except passing at the moment. But it's not about realism, it's about control and satisfaction.
 
AlaaEG said:
Do you aim passes with your thumb in real life? It is not assistance, it is a simulation of players' stats. Without these stats, every player would be the same, every game would be the same!
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Really? Of course not. Just like you don't control your speed with a trigger and determine ball velocity with longer button presses. See my post above.

And for the hundredth time, less CPU assistance does not have to equal less relevance of stats and context.

And go read the definition of the assistance settings. They do not turn off or on player stats. They explicitly state that the higher the assistance settings, the more help you get from the game.

Stats and CPU assistance are two separate things.
 
The other problem we have is that with the overly assisted shooting, it requires superhuman goalkeepers. Some of the more tactically minded players would rather have those midfield battles...which are quite hard now because of the missile defending. If tactical defending actually works and there is more containing from the CPU, I'd be a lot happier.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
There you go. This is the main reason why anyone has moved to manual and why manual players often advocate the "slow" game speed setting.

Only problem is, you can't force your opponents to play the same way, nor the CPU to use a similar strategy.

I'm not bashing manual mate - I use manual everything except passing at the moment. But it's not about realism, it's about control and satisfaction.
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Exactly.

And you're right and that's why we are always getting into debates over the level of assistance in the default settings. For many of us, the default settings in both games provide too much help, making some things relatively easy compared to their level of difficulty in real life. Ping pong passing is the perfect example.
 
This is not really a question of simulation or not simulation, it's a question of preference. Personally, I would like to be able to choose which side of goal to aim at somehow. Wanting to hit it to the right and then it get hitting to the left is a bit of a pain.
 
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