FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

I'm not sure I really like the idea of having it being a user-skill based thing with pace, surely it would be better to just make it significantly more likely they'd have errant touches when sprinting at top pace (and have some extra button combination to do it - holding R1 and R2 sounds fine to me frankly).

No-one wants us to go back to FIFA 09 style crap, but, I just don't see making Walcott incapable of getting away from players as being the solution. It makes a mockery of player individuality to some degree.
 
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Agree fully, the blanket way EA cover the whole player speed is a problem for me, it's the same in other areas, like certain shooting areas will work and others will not.

Nothing quite frustrates like a speedy and fast reacting player being caught by a tired lumbering defender with a head start that would leave a Cheetah chasing dust...:ROLL:
 
On PES, I just don't even use fast players anymore. I don't feel that it's worth putting Walcott on, either at the start or as a sub to get that extra pace: it just isn't worth it. It's better to have a reasonably fast player who is strong enough to just hold a player off endlessly, than to have one who should be able to get away, can't, and then gets pushed over.
 
The day any of both games implements SKILL STATS to running with the ball most of the sprint issues will automatically resolved. If a bad player tries to sprint too much or knock the ball too far, his low skills should send the ball too far or too near or simply wide, so his run is broken as it happens in reality.

On the contrary, a great driver of the ball such as Messi would destroy you if he happens to break your line. A slow but gifted player wouldn't reach the keeper alone. But that's what happens to Xavi actually, he just lacks speed and will hardly win a 30 yards race to any deffender.

This are the subtelties that a real revolution in gameplay would have any of the games if they were really interested in simulatin the technique of this sport, instead of the physical attributes as they have focused in all this years.

Any other approach taken up to now or any approach that doesn't count that in will simply be an artifical way of trying to reduce the difference in speed.
 
You guys make me so happy when you talk about this, keep talking and make sure EA knows we want error in touches and we might get a huge jump in realism only from that. Because these touches with error would apply to their precision dribble too, making that also much more realistic and not Messi-on-crack like it seems to be now. It would also be applied to all tricks, making the outcome have different degree of error making them much less predictable. It would boost the feeling of individuality a lot.
 
Gab_ said:
You guys make me so happy when you talk about this, keep talking and make sure EA knows we want error in touches and we might get a huge jump in realism only from that. Because these touches with error would apply to their precision dribble too, making that also much more realistic and not Messi-on-crack like it seems to be now. It would also be applied to all tricks, making the outcome have different degree of error making them much less predictable. It would boost the feeling of individuality a lot.
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jump-joy.jpg


:LOL: Don't worry my friend, we wont stop until it's implemented!
 
I agree that the error in sprinting touches isn't represented Klash - but that doesnt make PES 2011's catchup as/more realistic than FIFA's interpretation, which is what I was contesting. I wish you wouldn't pick such misleading examples too - a centreback muscling off a jostling opponent (which is what you seem to be describing) or a player with a Speed Merchant card (I've told you about these!) are not examples of a good system. In fact a stat-defying speed boost AND with many more touches per second AND turning at up to 45 degrees with each touch is a horrific amount to add to one trait.

I don't 100% like the idea of timing R1 (or R2) button presses just to be able to sprint at full speed either. For a start if it has to be extremely precise then it becomes unusable online (assuming PES is as laggy as this year's edition would often be for me). I don't mind the idea of there being some leeway with such a system, particularly since different players are more or less likely to screw up their forward touch. But that just solves the problem for the sorts of players that sprint spammers seldom use anyway, or it just focusses the sorts of teams they use.

I do like the concept but worry about how big a gap there should be between dribble sprinting and R1 tap sprinting, how much of the error is defined by user skill, and how that error is represented. It's the sort of thing that could get quite silly and be more about gamer skills than judgement. It could work well, of course - but I don't think it should require pinpoint timing.

In terms of FIFA I'd rather the standard sprint dribble was slower, the jog slower still, the right stick knock-on was error-based (direction and distance) and the amount you held the stick was more of a factor, but even once you've done that the biggest problem is the defensive AI's openness to being burned for pace by defending as individuvals and the speed with which play can move up the pitch as a whole.
 
Rodelero said:
The AI also took a dive between 10 and 11. The AI went from unintelligent but functional, to actually broken in attack and defence. The CPU AI was bad in 10, but I'm sure the attacking/defensive team AI wasn't too bad.
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Some revising of history going on here, I think. The defensive AI (teammates or opponent) in FIFA10 and WC was horrific, with fullbacks 10 yards deeper than centrebacks, defenders who stood several yards away from the attacker they were marking, defenders who were frequently caught out by their own momentum off-the-ball, and almost no concept at all of a defensive line. Midfield shape was non-existant too.

The overall level of AI intelligence went upwards from 10 to 11. Whether it became more fun or less fun to play against is another matter and perhaps down to taste.
 
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Forgot to say that obviously the best approach would be for the user to decide what to try (large knock on? safer run with less speeed? etc..) but everything else should be stats-driven. So no "mini-game" ghardcore gamer skills involved in running with the ball, for sure. The error should be based mainly on stats, not strictly user input.
 
Rodelero said:
I'm not sure I really like the idea of having it being a user-skill based thing with pace, surely it would be better to just make it significantly more likely they'd have errant touches when sprinting at top pace (and have some extra button combination to do it - holding R1 and R2 sounds fine to me frankly).

No-one wants us to go back to FIFA 09 style crap, but, I just don't see making Walcott incapable of getting away from players as being the solution. It makes a mockery of player individuality to some degree.
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Fully agree too; really don't like the idea of making the user-input side of sprinting with the ball more complicated. It's unnecessary and sub-optimal to, what I feel would be, the ideal solution (for both games): take dribbling to the next level by making the ball a fully independent entity that is not "attached" to player feet like it is now.

When we start seeing players over-running the ball, totally leaving it behind them, that'll be a good indicator that dribbling is finally at more realistic levels. Likewise the ball should not always be in the same spot relative to a player's position when dribbling; i.e. the ball should not always be perfectly right in front of the player as it tends to be in the games. And any evidence of "magnetism" between the ball and players must be eradicated!

Over the last few years FIFA has taken their ball physics to an all new level, but now they need to likewise upgrade the system that manages the relationship between the ball and player touch.
 
romagnoli said:
I agree that the error in sprinting touches isn't represented Klash - but that doesnt make PES 2011's catchup as/more realistic than FIFA's interpretation, which is what I was contesting. I wish you wouldn't pick such misleading examples too - a centreback muscling off a jostling opponent (which is what you seem to be describing) or a player with a Speed Merchant card (I've told you about these!) are not examples of a good system.
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I know, its true, thing is i said before I just don't get annoyed by it man, that's all and i haven't minded playing around the issue, but that's just me.
 
nerf said:
Some revising of history going on here, I think. The defensive AI (teammates or opponent) in FIFA10 and WC was horrific, with fullbacks 10 yards deeper than centrebacks, defenders who stood several yards away from the attacker they were marking, defenders who were frequently caught out by their own momentum off-the-ball, and almost no concept at all of a defensive line. Midfield shape was non-existant too.
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The offside line is still hopeless in 11. The fullbacks still prioritise tracking runs in behind by exactly the same distance, over holding the defensive shape. They do in 12, the AI for which is unchanged from 11.

I don't know that the AI is worse, technologically at least, but the balancing of defence vs attack was a serious problem.
 
I do want the ball to be a freer entity but it's worth noting that you still need a degree of rhythm to how players move while dribbling in general. It's essential to timing how you try to take someone on. It's why people wish for things like footplanting and one footed dribbling.
 
romagnoli said:
The offside line is still hopeless in 11. The fullbacks still prioritise tracking runs in behind by exactly the same distance, over holding the defensive shape. They do in 12, the AI for which is unchanged from 11.

I don't know that the AI is worse, technologically at least, but the balancing of defence vs attack was a serious problem.
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My impression has been that defensive AI hasn't changed to a great degree recently but the offensive AI in 11 is absolutely terrible and I'd swear worse than before. I agree that defense v attack was a serious problem and, at least when playing single-player, it was the offensive AI that seemed to me to regress in 11.

Or maybe it was just seeing the CPU upon kick-off dribble straight forward for an easy take-away EVERY time.

In any case, like Rod said, the AI might be the biggest problem for me with FIFA this year. The question will probably be, are the improvements to gameplay mechanics in PES - OTHER than AI - enough for me to not really bother with FIFA?
 
The way i see it is:

Offensive AI in FIFA 10 i think took custom tactics into account quite substantially. similar with FIFA 09!

The poorly implemented personality + has now made the AI attacking wise fucking retarded and they just run blindly down the middle to the nearest shooting zone!
 
drekkard said:
The day any of both games implements SKILL STATS to running with the ball most of the sprint issues will automatically resolved. If a bad player tries to sprint too much or knock the ball too far, his low skills should send the ball too far or too near or simply wide, so his run is broken as it happens in reality.

On the contrary, a great driver of the ball such as Messi would destroy you if he happens to break your line. A slow but gifted player wouldn't reach the keeper alone. But that's what happens to Xavi actually, he just lacks speed and will hardly win a 30 yards race to any deffender.

This are the subtelties that a real revolution in gameplay would have any of the games if they were really interested in simulatin the technique of this sport, instead of the physical attributes as they have focused in all this years.

Any other approach taken up to now or any approach that doesn't count that in will simply be an artifical way of trying to reduce the difference in speed.
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I cant say much(due to NDA), but this might be happening this year.
 
brunnoce said:
I cant say much(due to NDA), but this might be happening this year.
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Yes it seems that EA are trying to rectify the problems you guys mention of the physical side of the game (strength, speed) between lower rated teams and top teams.
 
FIFA10/WC defensive 'shape':
def1gm.jpg


FIFA11 defensive shape:
young1l.jpg


The defensive AI made significant progress from 10 to 11, with work still to be done.

In terms of attacking AI, the CPU suffers (amongst other things) from slow reaction speeds when set to World Class or below. On Legendary it feels sharper, although remains predictable, repetitive and overly aggressive.

An area in which the AI did regress (besides the kick-off bug) is that Custom Tactics has even less of an impact than ever. I'm hoping that's something they've been working on in the background for 13.

But overall I can't buy that the AI regressed in 11. Less pleasant to play against, maybe. Unbalanced between defence and attack, sure. Not as good as we'd wish for, absolutely. Less intelligent, no.
 
The problem (IMO) is you're looking at the defenders. But it's the attackers you should be looking at.

Move those two attackers in the WC2010 pic back a few yards onside and you have a nice, flat defensive line. Copy-paste those attackers into FIFA 11 and you have a broken defensive line. Not as broken, but still inviting trouble and begging to be torn apart/take things to the next level and move back another 10 yards before thinking 'where the hell am I?'. FIFA's way of treating man marking and the trackin of runs has not changed significantly (though it has, subtly); it's more the attack that has been tweaked in order to reduce the number of occurrences of that fullback behaviour.

Mostly I agree the AI isn't less 'intelligent', but that it has been retuned to be less penetrative, and therefore underline its existing shortcomings.
 
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I think those screenshots show FIFA 11's AI off at its absolute best. The more general reality with FIFA 11's defensive AI, is that it's able to have a defensive line of three were the fourth man is 'covering' a run 10 yards further back, and where the midfield is more than happy to be on the wrong side of the ball.

I thought the AI was boring, unrealistic, but functional with FIFA 10.
In FIFA 11 it's boring, unrealistic, and dysfunctional.

I think you're right in a sense that it didn't necessarily go backwards technically though, just that when playing with it, or against it, it almost never worked at all. I see your point, but, for me, that is regression of a sort.
 
Anyone think it's a technical issue to do with Personality +? It just seemed very apparent that in FIFA 10. the AI did closely follow the custom tactics given to them, the individuality was so non existent, it was easy for the AI to follow it's tactical orders. In FIFA 11, after they perform a trick or shimmy, they just run like robots into the center, they don't bother
 
No, I'm not sure it's an issue with P+ but rather something deeper. For example, no matter who the player is, the CPU will always charge forward at kick-off. The "intelligence" part appears absent from "AI;" P+ seems to only influence abilities and outcomes.

It seems to be similar when the CPU has possession in the final third: they predictably and regulary make poor choices between whether to pass, shoot, or take on a defender; their stats, however, influence only whether they are successful or not.

I don't see a great difference in how CPU players "think," only in their outcomes. If there is a variety in decision making built into FIFA, it's not nearly emphasized enough. The new Vision upgrade seems intended to change this but I doubt it'll be enough. Vision, after all, is only one of many mental factors involved.

What makes things that more difficult comparing the AI from different years is that changes in gameplay mechanics confound the issue. In particular, changes in tackling and defending made playing defense in 11 a breeze. So, how much is that the fault of the AI, and how much is the fault of over-powered tackling?

It will be interesting to see but changes to defending for 12 should have some major implications for what it feels like to play against the AI, at least at the individual level, not team AI. Of course, that will all count for little if other imbalances remain, like CPU response times and their ability to dribble and/or defend unrealistically well.

I think it's certainly true that something was wrong with custom tactics in 11, and maybe P+ has a negative influence, but I don't think P+ is the primary cause. P+ was intended to emphasize a range in abilities, but when the level of intelligence is so poor at the highest level of that range, the range itself cannot be great, and thus there is little variety.
 
In FIFA 10, centre-backs 'marked' five yards away from the attacker. In 11, they get touch-tight to that attacker on the edge of their area.

In FIFA 11 the defence attempts to hold and protect their 18 yard line, rather than sinking to the penalty spot and beyond like they always did in 10/WC.

The occasion of one defender being several yards deeper than the rest was exponentially worse in 10/WC than 11.

If the AI was more functional in 10 than 11 then I'm a dutchman.
 
nerf said:
In FIFA 10, centre-backs 'marked' five yards away from the attacker. In 11, they get touch-tight to that attacker on the edge of their area.

In FIFA 11 the defence attempts to hold and protect their 18 yard line, rather than sinking to the penalty spot and beyond like they always did in 10/WC.

The occasion of one defender being several yards deeper than the rest was exponentially worse in 10/WC than 11.

If the AI was more functional in 10 than 11 then I'm a dutchman.
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I may have a poor, or nostalgic memory (of a game I didn't particularly like) then. I'm pretty sure the individual nutcase defender problem started with 11, and I'm 100% certain the midfield not falling back to defend started with 11.
 
There is no Personality+. It's there in name and that's it. From what I've noticed it's basically if this player has skill above X he will attempt a,b,c,d, etc. If he has skill below x but above y he will attempt a,b. That's the cause of random tricks/flicks and crap. The charging forward is just shit programming.
 
10 was more prominent with nutcases to be fair. Wc2010 too. The fullbacks thought they were in a 2-3-5 at times. 11 tends to just have one fullback go mental and ruin the offside line.

I wouldn't say the AI was more functional back then, but the shit defending and the shit attacking perhaps cancelled out in a more 'entertaining' fashion. This year the weaknesses in the attacking are highlighted more as the passing speed has moved heavily in favour of defence and the disparity between how good the attacking AI is and how good it needs to be is greater. This in turn can perhaps emphasise when a fullback is locked into marking an attacker some 5, 10 yards further back, because it becomes a more valuable opportunity.
 
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Great discussion guys. I am going through a phase where I'm playing an hour or so of PES 11 and an hour or so of FIFA 10 World Cup each night.

One thing that is noticeable is that in FIFA, Central Defenders are anything but. The amount of times the CPU can put play in someone and my centre backs are wide out and near the right back/left back is ridiculous. I end up having to make 45 degree runs to the middle lane of the pitch while their striker goes through 1 on 1.

The other thing I noticed (and I've just played 9 minute halves on World Class, Professional and Semi-Pro) is that every team seems to be coached by Arrigo Sacchi. What I mean is that the gap between the striker and the last defender is way too close. Hence why the midfield seems to always be so crowded. Even over a longer game time, I found very little evidence that the CPU AI got pulled out of shape or got stretched at all.

Whilst on PES, you sometimes get given too much space outside the box, the formation and set up of the CPU seems less rigid and more natural. I mean these are meant to be human players out on the field who can't magically retain their shape and stamina for 90 minutes. If this truly represents football, then I would expect most real games to end in nil nil stalemates.

The ability of certain players and certain teams to adhere to tactical instructions must be represented better on FIFA. Also if a player is low on form, has a yellow card, is fatigued etc, then they should be easier to get past with your players, they should mistime tackles etc.

Regarding sprinting error; maybe instead of having to time the button press, you can just hold sprint as normal but error increases as your momentum builds up. I.e. when you're at full speed you're more prone to taking further or more inaccurate touches. And obviously tie this to a players dribbling stat.
 
Rodelero said:
I may have a poor, or nostalgic memory (of a game I didn't particularly like) then. I'm pretty sure the individual nutcase defender problem started with 11, and I'm 100% certain the midfield not falling back to defend started with 11.
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It was much less sophisticated in 10.

In 11 if you drag a player out of position other players cover. So when the RB has overlapped and been caught out of position the CDM/RM or RCB will move to cover the gap.

If you have the PS3 version just watch the whole match back from co-op cam and you actually start to see a lot more movement from the AI than you "feel" in the game.

FIFA 11 is not better just they are trying to do different things, like covering and better "threat" management. The thing I hated in 10 was the way they artificially added the nonchalant behaviour to players who weren't near the play. The problem is that it wasn't quick enough to realise the play was moving faster so you ended up with players ignoring the threats/opportunities which made for a far poorer experience in 10 coupled with badly implemented position and work rates for defenders.
 
The individual nutcase problem started with FIFA10 when they introduced the physical 'jostling' system, then used it as nothing more than a cheap trick to make the game harder by making physical challenges massively weighed in the AI's favour. In World Cup 2010 they toned it down a bit, then in 11 they've ramped it up while simultaenously making the ball travel slower yet not altering the sprint speeds and turns, making it even easier for the AI to close you down and forearm smash you to the ground.

As for the covering issue, it is more sophisticated, but in traditional EA style, they can't ever get a proper balance. The covering IS better, but because the AI will mostly put almost EVERY player unrealistically deep and play on the counter attack. This just results in game after game of you having 80% of the ball, up against a hulk-like back line of 10 defenders.

On many occasions, for example, I'd have a throw-in about 10 yards inside the opposition half, and they'd actually have ten players within 30 yards of their own goal, with one lone striker up front. With an AI set up so much towards boosting physical stats, flooding out the play in their defensive third with nearly their entire team, then yeah I suppose covering is more 'advanced'. Shame it just results in a crazy amount of one-sided draws because of it.
 
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