FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

gameklip said:
Exactly. It tries very hard to be (i own the latest version and i think all of us here grew up on ISS and PRO) but there's something very wrong under the hood stopping it from coming out from under the shadow of fifa.
Click to expand...

I think PES is better off under FIFA shadow. No hoards of kids and casuals demanding stupid stuff and creating Freestyle skill videos placing that over simulation aspects.

That's probably why PES fell off, because after PES 5 too many of these casuals kept banging on as if it was perfect and wanted more and more aesthetics.. Seabass neglected the true flaws! By the time PES 2009 came out, then knew they where in a world of shit looking at FIFA 08 and how it was laughing at PES's time, not to mention FIFA 09 which was well.. crap but still miles better than PES.

With PES and epsecially PES 2011, a bit like with WE9. it's arcade elements (triple tap cross, ball physics at times, player collisions) Aren't put there on purpose like FIFA's gliding.

They have had to strip down their shitty engine and rebuild and refresh it up to current gen standards without a huge budget. Unlike FIFA, PES didn't have a future gen ready engine given to them back in 2005, It's true they got too comfortable with the latter pes games on the PS2 and made big mistakes with PES 6, 2008 and 2009.

They know they screwed up and they are clearly making a huge effort to get not just back on track but finally give us THAT game. It's going to take them a while, there's been plenty of bugs and ugly moments but they are trying and they still given us a great game in PES 2011 and plenty of really amazing elements such as the dribbling, tactics etc.. This is why i don't hammer Koanmi like i used to! They show they really want to improve, EA are the opposite. they are making the money and couldn't give two shits really.
 
Great to read these write-ups. So despite the addition of three major new upgrades in the new defending system, precision dribbling, and the impact engine, it doesn't sound like this will be the revolution it's being advertised as. Makes me think of how the addition of 360 dribbling was a massive change but too many important issues remained unsolved.

EA have said more announcements are to come, but if major improvements are not made to things like passing, AI, and player movement physics, the addition of "tactical defending," "precision dribbling," and the "impact engine" might not be enough to keep me interested in the series.

It's too bad too because I don't think anyone would argue that these don't all sound like changes for the better. I'm just not convinced it'll be enough.
 
Jamezinho said:
This x 1000.
Click to expand...
In basketball though you probably have at least 80 points per match in the NBA (not a huge fan so this stat is made up) so there's a lot of action anyway, shortening the games for the sake of convenience would not have such a detrimental effect to the realism as it would in a football game - the scorelines would be a lot lower but there would still be a winner and it would be entertaining with a lot of action at either end.

In football, the majority of matches probably don't have any goals within the first 15 minutes, and if you play 15 minute games, you're going to get a LOT of 0-0 draws if the gameplay replicates real football almost perfectly.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Rob92 said:
Pure simulation wouldn't work unless you planned on playing full 90 minute matches.

Imagine sitting down for a bit of gaming session and playing through a mind-numbingly dull 0-0 stalemate with Championship sides for a whole 90 minutes, that would just be pointless.
As mentioned before, compromises need to be made in football games, but it's the nature of these compromises and how they're balanced that's important.
Click to expand...

Well you bang on there. People here are calling PES 2011 arcadey but that amazes me because there are some aspects of that game which some people actually find too realistic.

With my Sunderland Master League, because all the teams have been given tactics by me which reflect how they play in real life. My word! playing against Birmingahm just like in real life it's mind numbingly boring! They play the most dull, turgid football i've ever seen. Problem is i literally switch off against them at times and usually get caught by them.

When i played 30 mintue games even with my Copa Libertadores teams. Some of them where really dull in a realistic sense. Yes i set myself up as a defensive 4-5-1 but still. I don't think it would appeal to people with a short attention span.


Racing sims have the luxury of being able to have eventful, realistic races even if the races are shortened to quarter of their proper length, something football doesn't share.
Click to expand...

Well it's easier to get a pure car simulation. Cars are mechanical objects, for example in F1 Red bull have their pure simulator they give to their drivers to just help them get accustom to new tracks. In comparison, what computer has yet fully simulated a human being?

The AI we see in football games are as such if you simplify them: 'a series of commands'. Which the AI follows. Football being a game of perception there will always be grey area's. I VERY MUCH doubt even in my lifetime or for 20 or so years i will see which is smart enough to out-think or outsmart me me fair and square in a football game. It has to have advantages somehow. Like we all say, it's how it's balanced to represent football.
 
Rob92 said:
In basketball though you probably have at least 80 points per match in the NBA (not a huge fan so this stat is made up) so there's a lot of action anyway, shortening the games for the sake of convenience would not have such a detrimental effect to the realism as it would in a football game - the scorelines would be a lot lower but there would still be a winner and it would be entertaining with a lot of action at either end.

In football, the majority of matches probably don't have any goals within the first 15 minutes, and if you play 15 minute games, you're going to get a LOT of 0-0 draws if the gameplay replicates real football almost perfectly.
Click to expand...

True i would say Basketball is considerably easier to simulate compared to football.

Then again Football is considerably easier to simulate compared to UFC fighting games etc..
 
My feeling is that EA tend to overengineer solutions to particular problems rather than spread that amount of resource fixing related problems simultaneously in order to get the best out of those clusters of interrelated areas. Consequently the isolated fixes they work hard on (and it is unfair to say they don't work hard, it's just not focussed towards our own goals) end up as qualified successes or progress sideways rather than forwards.

The changes they're implementing this year are the sorts of things we're all behind, that we've all asked for. They do listen and they do work hard on trying to appeal to us as well as to the rest of the user base. But the fixes they implement are always too specific and overworked rather than being more economical and widely spread. They want to knock our socks off when they implement something, but that change always ends up having to fit amongst all the other problems and is either pared down or creates it's own problems, rather than achieving the end results that the effort spent should warrant. Then of course when the next year comes along, reworking the same areas as the last title is out of the question because too much time has already been spent in that area / it's been ticked off the list as working fine when it isn't.

Incidentally my feelings about the game are much the same as Rod's. A bit more positive in some areas, a bit less in others. It's definitely got its plus points and I'm sure a lot of people will really enjoy it. But I'm fairly confident it won't win over any more fans here than the last couple of titles.
 
Last edited:
romagnoli said:
My feeling is that EA tend to overengineer solutions to particular problems rather than spread that amount of resource fixing related problems simultaneously in order to get the best out of those clusters of interrelated areas. Consequently the isolated fixes they work hard on (and it is unfair to say they don't work hard, it's just not focussed towards our own goals) end up as qualified successes or progress sideways rather than forwards.
Click to expand...

Could not agree more. For one, I didn't think they needed to implement Tactical Defending™ at all (Rodelero's impressions basically reaffirms this). Automatic pressing really needs to go, and probably FIFA11's useless running jockey as well. New players need to be taught how to effectively defend with manual positioning and knowing when to jockey/face an attacker (LT/L2) or run in parallel with him (RT/R2), with either option offering its own advantage (the former allows you to cover passing angles better and the latter lets you keep up with the attacker's pace). And just like in real life, there would be times where players need to constantly switch between the two. Committing a tackle or charging in at the wrong timing or angle should result in a card/foul, instilling the necessary risk awareness that's lost on majority of FIFA players these days....
 
Problem with full manual defense is how quickly everyone can change direction. Makes it hard to anticipate anything when guys are just zipping all over the place. And there is no passing game ever, it's just push forward, push forward. No drawing defenders out, opening up space, nothing. Every game of FIFA is just a bunch of fish looking to be fed.
 
Then they should've focused on that instead. My point is they shouldn't add in yet another layer of gameplay mechanics just to counter a fundamental issue (quick direction change in this case) they've had since many iterations ago....compounding is the problem here =/
 
That last goal looked great but I agree with your point - it's just forward forward forward. There's never any cagey play where people sit back and try and patiently exploit gaps that open up.

From time to time, you will go end to end, but FIFA's gameplay almost promotes it. No one wants to see nil nil draws but the current system is flawed. Shooting is too accurate and they compensate by making goalkeepers superhuman. Often you see a ridiculous amount of shots on target. That's the first problem. Secondly, those shots get saved too often.

As mentioned elsewhere, they need to make the shots more realistic/less assisted and then they can tone down the goalkeepers to a reasonable level.

This is where PES has it better balanced I think. More shots miss and more shots that are on target go in. And you get realistic saves from keepers.

Anyone who thinks every keeper (or any keeper for that matter) can consistntly save shots in the corner of the goal, when they are rockets hit from inside the 18 yard box, needs to stop and watch a few real games on TV or live at the stadium. It just doesn't happen like it does in FIFA.
 
Oh I know adelante, I'm just saying the same thing. There's underlying problems they're ignoring and adding to by adding all these 'new' features. Impact engine is a great idea, but players fall over all the time anyway, now they just look good doing it. If things were slowed down, turned into less of a sprint fest, then on rare occasions when people do bump/run into each other it could be used to throw them off balance, and sometimes cause falls.

The way the impact engine is at the moment is going to make online play even worse. Players will run straight into whoever has the ball hoping at least one of them will come out with it. I haven't noticed it in the videos, but does the impact engine 'calculate' more than two people hitting each other? I don't remember seeing it in any of the videos.
 
It's a slick trailer, I'll say that. Those new additions look really nice, in isolation at least.

I have a question about tactical defending TM - how does it affect the AI? Someone tweeted that the AI still pressures insanely, does that mean they don't use the contain function, or what?

I'm also still unclear on the channels that the Gamechangers might have for providing feedback. Rodalero obviously has some very logical, clear and sensible analysis of what still needs improving in FIFA12, so do the devs actually receive that too and take it on board? It's feedback that seems too valuable to waste.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
That last goal looked great but I agree with your point - it's just forward forward forward. There's never any cagey play where people sit back and try and patiently exploit gaps that open up.

From time to time, you will go end to end, but FIFA's gameplay almost promotes it. No one wants to see nil nil draws but the current system is flawed. Shooting is too accurate and they compensate by making goalkeepers superhuman. Often you see a ridiculous amount of shots on target. That's the first problem. Secondly, those shots get saved too often.

As mentioned elsewhere, they need to make the shots more realistic/less assisted and then they can tone down the goalkeepers to a reasonable level.

This is where PES has it better balanced I think. More shots miss and more shots that are on target go in. And you get realistic saves from keepers.

Anyone who thinks every keeper (or any keeper for that matter) can consistntly save shots in the corner of the goal, when they are rockets hit from inside the 18 yard box, needs to stop and watch a few real games on TV or live at the stadium. It just doesn't happen like it does in FIFA.
Click to expand...

Fully agree on the shooting, this also affects lower leagues where players are restricted from hitting powerful long range efforts for the same reason...
 
Did any one ask about multiplayer. For example in Clubs, are you still going to just have the whole team holding tackle and auto chasing round the pitch?
 
Last edited:
uksix said:
Not really. Take alook at NBA2K, its fun to play as yet a true in-depth game. EA's NBA may be fun as its arcade like, but it has to stop when you can do 3 pointers with everyone.
Click to expand...

Rob92 said:
Pure simulation wouldn't work unless you planned on playing full 90 minute matches.

Imagine sitting down for a bit of gaming session and playing through a mind-numbingly dull 0-0 stalemate with Championship sides for a whole 90 minutes, that would just be pointless.
As mentioned before, compromises need to be made in football games, but it's the nature of these compromises and how they're balanced that's important.
Click to expand...

This. We don't really know how would it actually look like, but I'm affraid that's where full reality sim approach could (would?) lead to. A whole lot of long and dull matches. Maybe full 90 minutes wouldn't be necessary, but anything below 20 seems pointless.
 
Great write-up Rod,

Tbh the tactical defending sounds like what I do now anyway, use jockey to contain the AI (usually pushing them wide) and then waiting for the right moment to move in and press X (or let the AI do it's automated stuff).

By the sounds of it we can expect the same amount of improvement as we saw in 10 and 11. Nice tech, but flawed implementation. I hope PES adds a significant amount of animation transitions this year...
 
I'll probably use the contain button to give my player a head start to get to the man with the ball and then take over myself with the jockey button.

If used like that then I can't see it being a huge problem but ideally, contain shouldn't be needed at all and you should move it all yourself. I suppose EA have to cater for the masses though and some younger people (and some older ones!) would struggle too much having to do it all themselves.

Why can't EA just have a better / separate / more accessible manual section where all assists can be turned off including this contain feature???

Have seperate stats for if you ever decide to switch back and forth between the assist and manual sections too.
 
Last edited:
PU6HY said:
I'll probably use the contain button to give my player a head start to get to the man with the ball and then take over myself with the jockey button.

If used like that then I can't see it being a huge problem but ideally, contain shouldn't be needed at all and you should move it all yourself. I suppose EA have to cater for the masses though and some younger people (and some older ones!) would struggle too much having to do it all themselves.

Why can't EA just have a better / separate / more accessible manual section where all assists can be turned off including this contain feature???

Have seperate stats for if you ever decide to switch back and forth between the assist and manual sections too.
Click to expand...

they should just get rid of assisted bullshit settings period!
 
The trailer is meh. On the tactical defending part just look at how Hummels is able to pivot. Same happens with Ashley Cole when John Terry is making a tackle at 0:21. It's like he's spinning on ice. It looks horrible.
 
mmmm i see more videos about fifa12 "defending tactical" "tackles" "new dribbling"

i hope see new graphic video, is less important, but i hope

simulation is BIG
 
FIFA may flow and be more fluid than PES will ever be. But tactically it's a PS1 game and in terms of playing g football it’s far off. It’s loaded with bright shiny graphics and superlative animations, but in terms of needing a genuine football brain it’s off.
PES is by no means a better game than FIFA, technically lacks in so many areas, but it gets the fundamentals of playing football right. FIFA will always make you play the way they want you too, it’s a case of button mashing at its most disguised.
When I see goals on TV I never say I’d see that goal in PES, I always acknowledge that I’d be able to score that in FIFA or that would be seen in a game of FIFA, But when I play FIFA I don’t feel like I’m playing a game of football, more than a game of getting the ball in a net by any means possible.
I’ve spent the same amount if time with FIFA11 as I have with PES2011 and in every single way FIFA is better, except in the aspect of playing football and the enjoyment playing football brings to you.
Xaor wrote hands on impression of FIFA and what he states in terms of momentum and inertia that is prominent in PES and lacking in FIFA is so important in terms of football and what get’s expressed on a football pitch.
I believe this is solely due to the fact the FIFA is made for such a broad commercial market of people who don’t care about finer details of the ins and outs of football.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom