Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

[ibra77]

That first Lovenkrands goal shows perfectly what is wrong with the momentum. Caldwell stopped on a sixpence. He might have been slightly slower pushing off but he actually made the wrong choice in going directly back up the pitch rather than angling his run inside. That dribble came from him getting his angles wrong rather than him not being able to cope with a hard stop (as he quite clearly could).


I do enjoy the right stick dribbling, it's a very tactile way of representing kick and rush football. But FIFA absolutely sucks at basic dribbling precisely because of things like these dead stops. If you aren't trick sticking, or fake shooting, or using extremes of sprinting and turning, then you just can't organically wrong-foot an opponent who is coming towards you with the regularity you should. Modric-style advances? Forgetaboutit.

There's room for improvement their sure but I have to disagree again with your main point. The problem their seems more the animation than the actually momentum, I say this for two reasons.
1, because as you pointed out the player is slightly slow to react after he "planted his feet" though the animation doesn't show the planting of feet,
2, you could argue that is what led to the desperate decision to make an ill-timed tackle. It's not even close to realisitic as far as the animations goes (no feet planting, arms waving, knees bending etc,), but not a bad representation in my opinion when you look at the overall outcome (i.e delayed reaction, bad decision to tackle)

The main point is this, desperate and ill-timed tackles occur when players try to force themeselves in the opposite direction of their momentum. This is obviously b/c a player has lost hope at being able to match his opponents acceleration. It might be a bit of a stretch, especially given that the player took a few steps before attempting the tackle, but that's my interpretation of that video. Hope there will be drastic improvements in the next game as the framework is there. The aburpt stop will turn into something of a proper attempt to stop momentum with a slight loss of balance, and the few steps before the challange will turn into a desperate lunge - outcome stays the same, the attacking player gets away from his man.

 

[EatonTJ]

There's room for improvement their sure but I have to disagree again with your main point. The problem their seems more the animation than the actually momentum, I say this for two reasons.
1, because as you pointed out the player is slightly slow to react after he "planted his feet" though the animation doesn't show the planting of feet,
2, you could argue that is what led to the desperate decision to make an ill-timed tackle. It's not even close to realisitic as far as the animations goes (no feet planting, arms waving, knees bending etc,), but not a bad representation in my opinion when you look at the overall outcome (i.e delayed reaction, bad decision to tackle)

The main point is this, desperate and ill-timed tackles occur when players try to force themeselves in the opposite direction of their momentum. This is obviously b/c a player has lost hope at being able to match his opponents acceleration. It might be a bit of a stretch, especially given that the player took a few steps before attempting the tackle, but that's my interpretation of that video. Hope there will be drastic improvements in the next game as the framework is there. The aburpt stop will turn into something of a proper attempt to stop momentum with a slight loss of balance, and the few steps before the challange will turn into a desperate lunge - outcome stays the same, the attacking player gets away from his man.

These are my thoughts as well. The fact that a quick stop and turn works pretty often indicates that changing direction must have some sort of negative effect on the defender, regardless of whether it is animated properly or not.

It used to be more common to see instances of the animation not line up properly with the match engine. I remember seeing a slew of videos in generations past showing players missing the ball with their heads or feet yet the ball still changing direction.

Perhaps that is what is going on with momentum in FIFA 11. The underlying match engine factors in some amount of momentum, but in some situations there is not corresponding animation. Maybe the desperate lunge tackle is their current way of animating being wrong footed, as Ibra77 suggested.

New animations are the lynch-pin of improvement from iteration to iteration of both PES and FIFA, maybe FIFA will put in some better momentum animations for FIFA 12... who knows? It would be awesome though, skinning a defender to the point where he falls over.

 

[nerf]

All this dribbling stuff you guys are going on about is just silly really.

All you're doing is proving it's POSSIBLE to beat players

Well yes... the original question was:

One final additional question - is it even possible to dribble past a defender in this game without using a skill move?

As for:

Someone who doesn't understand or watch football enough may not pick up on the obvious lack of realism in the dribbling/tackling, and enjoy the "challenge" of it (or lack of re: tackling), but it's way too evident shows itself too frequently for me to simply ignore or put up with.

Someone who doesn't understand or watch football enough may not pick up on the obvious lack of realism in Pro Evo's AI, but it's way too evident and shows itself too frequently for me to simply ignore or put up with.

Ultimately we have two games that both fall short of providing a realistic game of football for different reasons, so personally-speaking I play the one that provides the most fun and satisfaction.

 

[romagnoli]

Don't think I can compete with this level of reinterpretation or cognitive dissonance. A decision to take three steps forward and attempt a tackle is proof of momentum conservation?? Surely then the attacker should be representing momentum loss by shooting, or hoofing the ball out of play, rather than turning on the ball more slowly.

If something as fundamental as turning around is not being represented by animations, and in combination with things like the gliding over the pitch that has crept in over the past few installments, then the game is asking you to make inorganically precise judgements of when to turn based on false information and, essentially, guesswork (is momentum going to kick in or isn't it, is the player going to be fooled into taking three steps forward and sticking a leg out or isn't he, where is the player really if he isn't really where I can see him).

This just gets more and more bizarre by the post.

Someone who doesn't understand or watch football enough may not pick up on the obvious lack of realism in Pro Evo's AI, but it's way too evident and shows itself too frequently for me to simply ignore or put up with.

It's absolutely miles, MILES, ahead of FIFA's.

 

[EatonTJ]

Don't think I can compete with this level of reinterpretation or cognitive dissonance. A decision to take three steps forward and attempt a tackle is proof of momentum conservation?? Surely then the attacker should be representing momentum loss by shooting, or hoofing the ball out of play, rather than turning on the ball more slowly.

If something as fundamental as turning around is not being represented by animations, and in combination with things like the gliding over the pitch that has crept in over the past few installments, then the game is asking you to make inorganically precise judgements of when to turn based on false information and, essentially, guesswork (is momentum going to kick in or isn't it, is the player going to be fooled into taking three steps forward and sticking a leg out or isn't he, where is the player really if he isn't really where I can see him).

This just gets more and more bizarre by the post.



It's absolutely miles, MILES, ahead of FIFA's.

There is a "momentum" system in FIFA 11. It is most certainly always "active" or "on". However, what there isn't is a proper momentum animation for every situation (the main example being that of players changing direction without an animation of planting their feet, hence the apparent "floaty-ness" or "gliding" by those players in those situations). But the underlying "math" is still going on in the match engines behind the scenes, factoring agility, acceleration, balance, reactions, etc., governing how quickly a player turns, stops/starts, rides a tackle, etc.

I can only assume that you play at a much more zoomed in camera than I do because I'm never watching the defender's feet to determine where their momentum is taking them. I guess I'll zoom in on some replays to see what you are complaining about, but I suppose if that's what's going on that was how I played the game, it would drive me batty.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

God I wished I saved the replay of my comment from earlier. There is a very large lack of momentum for the AI players, sometime so much that it's non existant. I remember Winston posting a replay of what happend to me.

If the momentum was present but not represented in animations I would mean that the player would look like he was reacting slower, as the first animation sequence would stop....time would go by...and then they would start the next animation sequence. Not go from zero and facing X to full speed facing Y in a single frame!

 

[romagnoli]

Having animations to show when someone's momentum is susceptible to sudden or slight changes of direction is basic. It's not about checking the angle the guy's laces are flapping in relation to his leg; it's not about asking for anything unreasonable. But if all you have to go by is the hope that the momentum is going to kick in this time, if you aren't given visual indication that someone can be caught flat footed or can be outmanoeuvred with a simple shimmy, then you're left completely in the dark during short range close-quarter battles and are only kind of in control of your and the opposition's momentum in extreme scenarios, such as punt and run football.

So much of the increased stability of the offline footballing experience is down to EA balancing the AI to counteract the flaws that litter the gameplay. Once you strip away this facade by playing online/multiplayer, it becomes all too clear how much of a disparity there is between the two experiences - and that's even in lag free conditions. By increasing the quantity, improving the quality and fixing the consistency of the momentum, EA would be in a position where the CPU doesn't have to resort to inhuman response times or decision making. EA can then balance the offline according to something that is also usable online, without giving two completely isolated but equally imperfect football games.

 

[nerf]

It's absolutely miles, MILES, ahead of FIFA's.

That surprises me. I couldn't possibly agree.

 

[ibra77]

A decision to take three steps forward and attempt a tackle is proof of momentum conservation??

+ the delayed reaction, yes exactly what I said.

Surely then the attacker should be representing momentum loss by shooting, or hoofing the ball out of play, rather than turning on the ball more slowly.

not sure how you came to that conclusion or what it has to do with my point.

as several other videos demonstrate, this doesn't always happen, often times the effect of momentum is clear in the animations. I've seen that abrupt stop several times and it is a specific scenario where that occurs. but let me say something at the risk of being tedious - as this is beyond the game now, and more of a interesting argument/discussion to prove or falsify a point and I probably won't play the game seriously for two weeks just for having this discussion -

To suggest that the game is unplayable b/c of things like that is superficial and contradictory to your "feels real" over "looks cool" stance. The players never teleport from one place to another, even if the animations that move them from point A to point B are tottally unrealistic or even ridiculous in appearace, they are not so far away from reality (in most cases*) with regard to time and space to the point where it makes the game unpredictable - an inference that you make. The movement is predicatable and infact realistic in that it includes anticipation. Like eatonTj said, nobody watches the feet for momentum, you play based on time, space, anticipation, body position and the like. Their is no time to analyze animations and a user reacts before he realizes and thinks himself "that animation didn't represent real momentum". I'll have a hard time defending it I know, but to blame the animation is a poor excuse.


*there are cases where the movement or reactions times are way off in my opinion, particulary when the ball is in the air. Defenders are often able to back peddle to a chip pass that has already gone over their head to intercept it comfortably before it lands, which is probably due to reaction times being the same across the board when they should vary between ground (2D) and aerial (3D) passes. There are other things, the game is far from perfect but it's improving and in the right direction.

 

[ibra77]

if you aren't given visual indication that someone can be caught flat footed or can be outmanoeuvred with a simple shimmy,

I've played football for some time now, and in my experience, and I do have some Mediterranean blood in me as far ball control and dribbling, you don't wait for visual indications raher you anticipate, likewise in basketball you don't wait for visual indications to "break an ankle" with a crossover, you either create the scenario by deception or you improvise based on anticipation. This is what makes the game a milestone in the sereis.

 

[Shearer_God]

I agree about the dribbling. I find it very easy after a while, it just requires sharp turns and flicks of the left stick. As the player makes this 'stab-tackle' simply flick the ball away from him with the left stick to change direction. It doesn't require any use of the right stick with fancy skills or anything.

Guess the best example I can give would be from my last game against legendary AI: http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/67253797

Tiene gets ahead of the striker to steal the ball and then drives forward. As the defender came towards me I simply changed direction slightly inside to evade him then carried on sprinting towards goal. It was a mad game and it seemed like anything could happen so I thought 'why not?' and smashed it towards goal.

Moments like that are what I play FIFA for.

 

[romagnoli]

I'm not just talking about individual plays in isolation (though if somebody is overcommitted or off-balance then of course a footballer will look to exploit that - FIFA struggles with this because it doesn't handle close range dribbling well). It's also about seeing what the defender does in reaction to your moves and spotting possible opportunities for next time. It's about the individual battles, between winger and fullback, between playmaker and destroyer, between player 1 and player 2.

You create space for yourself by junking one way or the other, by dropping a shoulder and throwing the opponent off. If the only representation of someone being thrown off-balance is as abstract and vague as we've seen in that video and in the game then the anticipation is more guesswork than a battle of wits, and it doesn't even try to explain why a defender one time will stop still from a sprint and then hang about for a bit before inexplicably trying to tackle, and the next will stop still but still push away quicker than you despite being at a supposed disadvantage.

As such, suggesting that the animations for momentum and for footplanting are only aesthetic, or is valuing 'looking cool' over feeling right, is fallacious. It's functional, it's instructive and it ensures that the reason for the result of each encounter is easily digested and understood. Plus of course it encourages the momentum system to operate consistently on each experience.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I can only assume that you play at a much more zoomed in camera than I do because I'm never watching the defender's feet to determine where their momentum is taking them.

I envy you. I play with the camera zoomed out to the max and i cannot make it through a single game of FIFA anymore solely because of the ridiculous player foot sliding and physics-defying movement. I haven't been able to play a full 90 minutes of FIFA in months. If you want to continue enjoying FIFA i advise you to not investigate player movement any further. Ignorance is bliss.

When I was actually bothering with FIFA 11 I downloaded dozens of in-game videos, with intentions of posting them as examples of what bothers me about FIFA. However, i have since lost nearly all interest in the game this year and never followed through. Here are just a few examples for those who may be interested.

Here's a fun one to start things off. Watch Scholes and his crazy physics-defying jockey move:
YouTube - scholes impossible jockeying.flv

Here my player is knocked-off the ball.**My issue is not so much with how easily he is knocked aside but how he slides rather than stumbles, falls, or pushes back. Sure this may be a minor instance of a failure in realistic physics but crap like this happens all over the pitch to various degrees. And the fact that it happens at all implies something is not correct with the player movement engine:
YouTube - sliding.flv

Another fun one like the Scholes example above. Watch my player pivot-slide around the opposing player, allowing him to easily catch the dribbler and regain possession:
YouTube - No Momentum.flv

Good god there is so much going wrong in this short clip, from players sliding to my guy getting pushed off the ball, with hardly any player contact, and sliding ridiculously for several meters:
YouTube - msv duisburg v kv mechelen: physical bump off.flv

Here's one of my biggest grievances with FIFA 11 - "the two-footed hop tackle." Note how my defender leaves both his feet simultaneously, "hopping" into the tackle. Tackles such as this are rampant in FIFA 11 and are highly effective. I have dozens of examples of these type of tackles - and all by only using the jockey button! Auto tackling must go! (Sorry for the poor quality of the vid - it was one of the first that i attempted to edit.)
YouTube - Auto Tackle Edited Movie.wmv

I posted this one before. Here the defender stops on a dime (perfect AI reaction time + no momentum penalty) and turns about, pivoting impossibly on one foot (unrealistic physics/animation fail). This pivot animation is ubiquitous and a major problem in FIFA 11:
YouTube - Slo Mo No Momentum Valencia

You probably have noticed how all these examples are of player movement without the ball. While not perfect I take no major issue with player movement while dribbling. However, the terrible movement physics for defenders contributes to FIFA 11 being the most unbalanced football game that i can remember, in favor of defensive play. IMO, just correcting movement physics would go a LONG way toward making FIFA the game we all want it to be.

I literally have dozens of videos like these, many that are much better but I am working on my iPad at the moment and only have those videos I uploaded to YouTube months ago. They catalogue my issues with FIFA this year, with the great vast majority of them showing instances of physics-defying player movement. Honestly, if player movement isn't vastly improved next year, I predict my FIFA days are over.

 

[EatonTJ]

I agree about the dribbling. I find it very easy after a while, it just requires sharp turns and flicks of the left stick. As the player makes this 'stab-tackle' simply flick the ball away from him with the left stick to change direction. It doesn't require any use of the right stick with fancy skills or anything.

Guess the best example I can give would be from my last game against legendary AI: http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/67253797

Tiene gets ahead of the striker to steal the ball and then drives forward. As the defender came towards me I simply changed direction slightly inside to evade him then carried on sprinting towards goal. It was a mad game and it seemed like anything could happen so I thought 'why not?' and smashed it towards goal.

Moments like that are what I play FIFA for.

Nice goal. I wish the crowd actually roared as loud in the game as they do in EA's replay videos. It would make the game more exciting.

 

[EatonTJ]

I envy you. I play with the camera zoomed out to the max and i cannot make it through a single game of FIFA anymore solely because of the ridiculous player foot sliding and physics-defying movement. I haven't been able to play a full 90 minutes of FIFA in months. If you want to continue enjoying FIFA i advise you to not investigate player movement any further. Ignorance is bliss.

...

I'm sure this will drive you mad, but I watch those videos and have no problems with what I'm seeing.

1. Scholes Video: Yes, Scholes is running around your player in a circle trying to get the ball, and eventually pokes it away. As a former coach, I've ran this drill with my kids and this is pretty much what it looks like if you have a dribbler that doesn't shield properly and doesn't put a body on the defender (like in your video). Scholes' ability to turn quickly doesn't look unrealistic to me, that's pretty much how quickly someone can run in a circle in real life. (*Also, it looks like Scholes plants his foot pretty hard before cutting back)

2. Video was really short and it keeps skipping the 1st second of it on my computer so I'm missing the bump off the ball. So, I can't say one way or another.

3. This video just shows the AI defender anticipating where you were going to dribble and beating you to the spot. Once you turned toward the sidelines, really the only way you could turn to keep it in bounds was back and away from the touchline. The AI knew this and went to the spot first. I don't think it is unfair or unrealistic.

4. There is some missing animation in this one. What appears to have happened is the defender catches the feet of the dribbling player just as the dribbler goes by, and instead of a "feet-tangled stumbling" animation, the game animates it more as a reaction to a barging tackle. Regardless, the game called the foul, which appears to have been the proper outcome. Not having the proper "I got fouled" animation isn't ideal, but isn't something that would be such a problem for me I couldn't play the game.

5. The two footed nature of this tackle is just how it is done in real life, no? Not sure what the problem is. The defender hops into the feet of player, plants his right on the ground when it lands and then swings his left foot at the ball. You see this in real life pretty often. It's a pretty physical standing tackle, but not unrealistic. I'm not sure why you take such issue with the defender jumping toward the attacker?

6. It seems to me like you used the defender's momentum against him successfully against him and executed a stop and cut inside before the defender could recover, no? Yes, the defender is able to open up his body pretty quickly, but it looks like he gets "stuck" after doing so for a moment giving you time to get past him. You only get tackled when you cut the ball back toward the defender, the defender doesn't unfairly catch up to you after you've ran past him. You turn right back around into him, how is that unfair?

 

[romagnoli]

That Scholes one is hilarious.

 

[EatonTJ]

I'm not just talking about individual plays in isolation (though if somebody is overcommitted or off-balance then of course a footballer will look to exploit that - FIFA struggles with this because it doesn't handle close range dribbling well). It's also about seeing what the defender does in reaction to your moves and spotting possible opportunities for next time. It's about the individual battles, between winger and fullback, between playmaker and destroyer, between player 1 and player 2.

You create space for yourself by junking one way or the other, by dropping a shoulder and throwing the opponent off. If the only representation of someone being thrown off-balance is as abstract and vague as we've seen in that video and in the game then the anticipation is more guesswork than a battle of wits, and it doesn't even try to explain why a defender one time will stop still from a sprint and then hang about for a bit before inexplicably trying to tackle, and the next will stop still but still push away quicker than you despite being at a supposed disadvantage.

As such, suggesting that the animations for momentum and for footplanting are only aesthetic, or is valuing 'looking cool' over feeling right, is fallacious. It's functional, it's instructive and it ensures that the reason for the result of each encounter is easily digested and understood. Plus of course it encourages the momentum system to operate consistently on each experience.

1. I think FIFA handles close dribbling fantastically. Controlling a player with high dribbling stats opens up a plethora of little dribbling animations allowing for a lot of little cuts and shimmies in seemingly every direction.

2. I will agree that there isn't much feedback visually when you beat a player... other than the obvious you have taken the ball past them. Maybe EA will add in some "I just got my ankles broken" animations for defenders in the future. But as of right now, there isn't much to see unless you jink around a missed tackle or something, the AI defenders don't hold there heads in embarrassment or anything.

3. Yes, I certainly hope that EA continues to improve 1:1 feet planting animation to movement, although to single FIFA out for these errors and not mention the PES series or nearly every other video game series having these issues is being a bit unfair. "Running in place" animations have been part of video games for years. And while we are seeing less and less of them, the issue existing in a video game shouldn't be so unexpected. But of course, we all hope they go away in future. I'm sorry they are game breaking for you in FIFA 11.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I'm sure this will drive you mad, but I watch those videos and have no problems with what I'm seeing.

1. Scholes Video: Yes, Scholes is running around your player in a circle trying to get the ball, and eventually pokes it away. As a former coach, I've ran this drill with my kids and this is pretty much what it looks like if you have a dribbler that doesn't shield properly and doesn't put a body on the defender (like in your video). Scholes' ability to turn quickly doesn't look unrealistic to me, that's pretty much how quickly someone can run in a circle in real life. (*Also, it looks like Scholes plants his foot pretty hard before cutting back)

2. Video was really short and it keeps skipping the 1st second of it on my computer so I'm missing the bump off the ball. So, I can't say one way or another.

3. This video just shows the AI defender anticipating where you were going to dribble and beating you to the spot. Once you turned toward the sidelines, really the only way you could turn to keep it in bounds was back and away from the touchline. The AI knew this and went to the spot first. I don't think it is unfair or unrealistic.

4. There is some missing animation in this one. What appears to have happened is the defender catches the feet of the dribbling player just as the dribbler goes by, and instead of a "feet-tangled stumbling" animation, the game animates it more as a reaction to a barging tackle. Regardless, the game called the foul, which appears to have been the proper outcome. Not having the proper "I got fouled" animation isn't ideal, but isn't something that would be such a problem for me I couldn't play the game.

5. The two footed nature of this tackle is just how it is done in real life, no? Not sure what the problem is. The defender hops into the feet of player, plants his right on the ground when it lands and then swings his left foot at the ball. You see this in real life pretty often. It's a pretty physical standing tackle, but not unrealistic. I'm not sure why you take such issue with the defender jumping toward the attacker?

6. It seems to me like you used the defender's momentum against him successfully against him and executed a stop and cut inside before the defender could recover, no? Yes, the defender is able to open up his body pretty quickly, but it looks like he gets "stuck" after doing so for a moment giving you time to get past him. You only get tackled when you cut the ball back toward the defender, the defender doesn't unfairly catch up to you after you've ran past him. You turn right back around into him, how is that unfair?

Doesn't drive me mad at all. Like i said, I envy you. I wish i could enjoy the game but i can't. That sucks. I'm now at an age where my standards are pretty damn high when it comes to spending (wasting) time on video games, and while there are top quality games out there in other genres, sadly the football game selection is absent quality at the moment. IMO, PES is just as poor if not worse than FIFA, for completely different reasons.

If you look at those videos and aren't bothered by what you see, then good for you and your lower standards. I wish I too could look beyond the failures of FIFA 11's player physics engine. But if you really think that players in real life slide across the pitch as if on ice, or are able to move free of inertia, or regularly make two footed standing hop tackles, then there's really no point in discussing realism with you.

Off the ball player movement in FIFA 11 is not bound by the laws of physics - inertia in particular. Meanwhile transitional animatiins are incomplete allowing for unrealistic tackling and player pivoting and turning. There is no argument to be had. It is what it is. If you don't see it then you dont see it. Anything else though is just making excuses.

 

[EatonTJ]

Doesn't drive me mad at all. Like i said, I envy you. I wish i could enjoy the game but i can't. That sucks. I'm now at an age where my standards are pretty damn high when it comes to spending (wasting) time on video games, and while there are top quality games out there in other genres, sadly the football game selection is absent quality at the moment. IMO, PES is just as poor if not worse than FIFA, for completely different reasons.

If you look at those videos and aren't bothered by what you see, then good for you and your lower standards. I wish I too could look beyond the failures of FIFA 11's player physics engine. But if you really think that players in real life slide across the pitch as if on ice, or are able to move free of inertia, or regularly make two footed standing hop tackles, then there's really no point in discussing realism with you.

Off the ball player movement in FIFA 11 is not bound by the laws of physics - inertia in particular. Meanwhile transitional animatiins are incomplete allowing for unrealistic tackling and player pivoting and turning. There is no argument to be had. It is what it is. If you don't see it then you dont see it. Anything else though is just making excuses.

I remember being in the same boat as you years ago, not for soccer games but for action/adventure games. I remember that I would see movies like Blade or the Matrix and then I'd want to play a game that let me do backflips and shoot and stab people... and it didn't exist. So every action/adventure game was just plain unsatisfying and I ended up giving up on the whole genre for a while. Eventually, things changed and games like Max Payne and Star Wars Jedi Academy came out and I was satisfied.

My point is, it appears the only solution for you is a time machine.

 

[Shearer_God]

1. I think FIFA handles close dribbling fantastically. Controlling a player with high dribbling stats opens up a plethora of little dribbling animations allowing for a lot of little cuts and shimmies in seemingly every direction.

Agree absolutely 100%. Just played a game as Benfica and controlling Aimar was so fun, little jinks here and there to just keep the ball from the defenders. Superb.

And I'm a person who enjoys both games but I seem to have periods where I play one more than the other. When I was into PES' MLO I was constantly on that. Now I can't stop playing FIFA. I think it's a case of just taking each game for what they are and playing them as they are supposed to be played. If you don't like FIFA because of certain flaws (sort of highlighted above) then don't play it. Same can be said about PES which has an equal amount of bugs and problems.

 

[ibra77]

Here we go. Max (if you don't mind me calling you that)If you didn't deserve to lose the ball then around a defender of his level I don't know when you should. By the looks of it you paniced and took a horrible first touch towards the path of a player who was running at a high speed, then you turned b/c you were afaid of contact, and then again you turned because you were afraid of contact, if you kept the ball on close control, if you knew what you were doing (and I'm not knocking you cuz i still don't know what im doing) you wouldnt even have to run into that situation. Watch a game and look closely at how CB's handle the ball, a good technical CB may have kept it real close to his body and then used scholes momentum against him, others may have cleared it or passed after no more than 1 touch, I'm sure you know this already but you have to apply it, and the more accurately you do the better the results. you took 3 bad ones that had no more thought behind them then to move away from the player (in my book thats panic).

Look at it this way you made a mess of it, if you play properly I gaurantee you, you won't see that kind of stuffexcept rarely. And I'm with Eaton, my first impression was that it's pretty bad, after watching it over and over it's not difficult to picture a similar scenerio in real life espcially with an aggressive player like scholes, this of course in reference to the timing and distance of the movement not the animation.

The delay in response in the no momentum valencia video is more proof of momentum conservation without the animation. He must of been running faster than Nerf's video hence he stood there longer. I think you beleive me when I say I could go on about all the other vids, but I'll suffice with that. Don't mean to tell you your missing out, by all means quit playing video games, but at this point I'm defending my position moreso than the game.

 

[ibra77]

sorry I have to comment on the third video. You were running towrads the sideline with nowhere to go, the AI read your inentions and fooled you by moving towards you and then just cutting in after you paniced (again, forgive me i use the term loosely) and turned back. It was too easy to read, you have to understand that's what the CPU was going to do all along as it was obvoius you had no intention of bursting down the sideline. even if you didn't want to take it down the sideline and play it safe, you can't make it that obvious, it's lazy application and a casual rendition of what happens in real life. it just doesn't cut it in this game.

edit: to further clarify, if you would have turned up field at the right time you would have been clear of the defender.

 

[ibra77]

The auto tackle one is one I can agree that is problematic because the outcome, namely the angle at which he hits the ball and the ensuing chase through the player is unrealistc in both space and time and in the animation. Their would have been more of a struggle in both getting to the ball and then running around the player.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Here we go. Max (if you don't mind me calling you that)If you didn't deserve to lose the ball then around a defender of his level I don't know when you should. By the looks of it you paniced and took a horrible first touch towards the path of a player who was running at a high speed, then you turned b/c you were afaid of contact, and then again you turned because you were afraid of contact, if you kept the ball on close control, if you knew what you were doing (and I'm not knocking you cuz i still don't know what im doing) you wouldnt even have to run into that situation. Watch a game and look closely at how CB's handle the ball, a good technical CB may have kept it real close to his body and then used scholes momentum against him, others may have cleared it or passed after no more than 1 touch, I'm sure you know this already but you have to apply it, and the more accurately you do the better the results. you took 3 bad ones that had no more thought behind them then to move away from the player (in my book thats panic).

Look at it this way you made a mess of it, if you play properly I gaurantee you, you won't see that kind of stuffexcept rarely. And I'm with Eaton, my first impression was that it's pretty bad, after watching it over and over it's not difficult to picture a similar scenerio in real life espcially with an aggressive player like scholes, this of course in reference to the timing and distance of the movement not the animation.

The delay in response in the no momentum valencia video is more proof of momentum conservation without the animation. He must of been running faster than Nerf's video hence he stood there longer. I think you beleive me when I say I could go on about all the other vids, but I'll suffice with that. Don't mean to tell you your missing out, by all means quit playing video games, but at this point I'm defending my position moreso than the game.

Thank you so much - critiques of my FIFA ability is exactly the point of posting those short videos.

Seriously, those short clips are not intended for tactical analysis (and btw I was the one controlling Scholes, but thanks anyways) but rather all they are good for is showing instances of how FIFA's animations and physics fail the realism test and negatively impacts gameplay. Thats it. Nothing more. For the love of god, please just look at the specific player movements highlighted, again such as players impossibly pivoting, lack of inertia, sliding, etc etc etc.

You can make excuses all you want and come up with scenarios for which the outcomes may make sense but it does not change the fact that player movement at times defies the laws of physics. In every FIFA forum you will find people complaining of the imbalances in FIFA 11, and how defending has become too easy. These videos are only a few examples of dozens that I have that show the many little problems in FIFA 11 that when added together create these imbalances that continue to be brought up.

My point is, it appears the only solution for you is a time machine.

My initial reaction to this was that you're absolutely right.

But then I remembered how much I loved FIFA 08. Even FIFA 09 I played for most of the year. FIFA 10 I didn't like near as much - partly because MM sucked - and now we have this year's trash. Oh, and I really enjoyed the WC game. If FIFA 11 was only the WC game with MM I'd probably still be playing it.

So no, I don't need a time machine. I need a decent, and most importantly well-balanced, football game. There have been previous football games that were like crack to me - I nearly failed out of grad school because of FIFA 09 - and they all had their various shortcomings. I am not seeking perfection, only a football game that is fun, well-balanced between offensive and defensive sides of the game, and in which match (and season) results make sense.

There is nothing I want that cannot be done, or isn't being done by other games. Some of the issues that I've highlighted are not issues in PES for example. All I want is for EA to focus on the fundamentals and the core of gameplay. Ensuring that player movement is realistic is part of that and not something I believe we should be willing to give EA a pass on.

 

[mfmaxpower]

sorry I have to comment on the third video. You were running towrads the sideline with nowhere to go, the AI read your inentions and fooled you by moving towards you and then just cutting in after you paniced (again, forgive me i use the term loosely) and turned back. It was too easy to read, you have to understand that's what the CPU was going to do all along as it was obvoius you had no intention of bursting down the sideline. even if you didn't want to take it down the sideline and play it safe, you can't make it that obvious, it's lazy application and a casual rendition of what happens in real life. it just doesn't cut it in this game.

edit: to further clarify, if you would have turned up field at the right time you would have been clear of the defender.

Lol. Once again, i'm actually the one stealing the ball in the video! And again, the whole point of this clip is to highlight the impossible slide-turn that allows for my defender to catch up and get the ball back. The part of the clip you are discussing above occurs after the problem and is irrelevant to our discussion.

But thanks again for highlighting just how stupid the offensive AI is!

 

[ibra77]

haha, alright, you go your way, i'll go mine

 

[EatonTJ]

My initial reaction to this was that you're absolutely right.

But then I remembered how much I loved FIFA 08. Even FIFA 09 I played for most of the year. FIFA 10 I didn't like near as much - partly because MM sucked - and now we have this year's trash. Oh, and I really enjoyed the WC game. If FIFA 11 was only the WC game with MM I'd probably still be playing it.

So no, I don't need a time machine.

Time machine's go backwards, too. Think, McFly.

 

[EatonTJ]

Lol. Once again, i'm actually the one stealing the ball in the video! And again, the whole point of this clip is to highlight the impossible slide-turn that allows for my defender to catch up and get the ball back. The part of the clip you are discussing above occurs after the problem and is irrelevant to our discussion.

But thanks again for highlighting just how stupid the offensive AI is!

Wait, you are complaining that the game is letting you fake like you are defending the sideline to force the offensive player to turn back, only to have your defender there to pick the ball off in the tackle?!

That's what happens in real life. You want EA to make a momentum system where you CAN'T do that? Who cares if it isn't animated 100% perfectly?; it would be ridiculous if EA prevented you from changing directions like that with your defenders.

I can't imagine how terrible the multi-player would be if you couldn't fake one way and go another as a defender.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Time machine's go backwards, too. Think, McFly.

Pretty sure I don't need a time machine if I want to throw FIFA 08 into the 360 - "think McFly" right back at ya. Now a time machine so i can be playing FIFA 12 or even FIFA 22... now we're talking.

 

[ibra77]

i guess I should apologize by the way for my assumptions...I thought I would have had you there, little did i know