Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

EatonTJ said:
Wait, you are complaining that the game is letting you fake like you are defending the sideline to force the offensive player to turn back, only to have your defender there to pick the ball off in the tackle?!

That's what happens in real life. You want EA to make a momentum system where you CAN'T do that? Who cares if it isn't animated 100% perfectly?; it would be ridiculous if EA prevented you from changing directions like that with your defenders.

I can't imagine how terrible the multi-player would be if you couldn't fake one way and go another as a defender.
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Sweet Jesus, this isn't that hard. My player is running one direction; through the use of the jockey button my player is able to slide and pivot on the spot, and run in the complete opposite direction with no penalty for inertia, no foot planting, no pause in the change in movement. Please, show me a clip of someone with cleats moving like that on a football pitch in real life - the movement has more in common with someone on skiis than someone running on grass! The radius of his turn and the speed that he maintains is simply impossible. Once again, though these are only a few short clips, this is an issue that has widespread implications throughout the game and is a major reason for why defending is too easy in fifa 11 compared to previous FIFAs.

If you're okay with player movement in FIFA 11 and its degree of realism, fine. But suffers majorly in the realism department, and IMO it's not as good as it should or could be, while other games, including previous FIFA's, do not suffer in this area to this degree (although ironically PES has the complete opposite with one of its stumbling animations - there's too much a penalty for change in movement). Any football game that is not committed to realistic physics is poor by my standards.
 
mfmaxpower said:
Sweet Jesus, this isn't that hard. My player is running one direction; through the use of the jockey button my player is able to slide and pivot on the spot, and run in the complete opposite direction with no penalty for inertia, no foot planting, no pause in the change in movement. Please, show me a clip of someone with cleats moving like that on a football pitch in real life - the movement has more in common with someone on skiis than someone running on grass! The radius of his turn and the speed that he maintains is simply impossible. Once again, though these are only a few short clips, this is an issue that has widespread implications throughout the game and is a major reason for why defending is too easy in fifa 11 compared to previous FIFAs.

If you're okay with player movement in FIFA 11 and its degree of realism, fine. But suffers majorly in the realism department, and IMO it's not as good as it should or could be, while other games, including previous FIFA's, do not suffer in this area to this degree (although ironically PES has the complete opposite with one of its stumbling animations - there's too much a penalty for change in movement). Any football game that is not committed to realistic physics is poor by my standards.
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I'm agreeing with you that the animations don't match up with the players movement 100% of the time, especially if you are looking for something as subtle as momentum. However, I don't think EA should eliminate players from moving in ways that would be realistic in real life.

Obviously, I'm sure that even if we just replace all of FIFA 11 players with X's and O's floating around the pitch, we could still disagree on what movement is realistic and what isn't. I'm of the opinion that professional footballers are elite athletes, and the best of 'em have such balance and agility that they can cut at extreme angles without losing much speed.

So... even if EA can't animate everything, I'd rather they allow for the best players to move with exceptional agility and speed as applicable. You clearly are demanding 1:1 animation with a complete physics system to govern everything. Sounds great, but we are way off.

Since you don't need the time machine, can I borrow it to go back in time before having this conversation? Cripes, I'm out on this one.
 
Since you got me all riled up, here's more vids displaying the lack of realism (and physics) in FIFA's off the ball player movement:

(Once again, these vids are not meant for tactical analysis but rather simply as exhibits of improper physics, movement, and player animations. Besides, in most cases I am the one controlling the player that is at fault for completing impossible feats.)

Here's one of my Barca player (Pedro?) doing a complete 180 pivot turn without a penalty for inertia: YouTube - Barca Player Pivot Turn

You can't move like that in real life. At least not on a football pitch wearing studs. At least not without breaking an ankle. And probably tearing a few knee ligaments.

Here's the same move from a different angle. It's actually quite comical:

YouTube - Barca Player Pivot Turn2

Watch my defender in blue as he is able to respond, turn, and slide around the dribbler without penalty of inertia. Not only is he able to stick with his man after a sudden change of direction, but he seemingly glides around the dribbler and oh so easily takes possession:

YouTube - Defending without momentum slo mo

Here's a longer stretch of the same play. Again, my defender in blue is able to move and turn in ways that defy physics. As I've said repeatedly, it's stuff like this that greatly imbalances the game in favor of the defense:

YouTube - Defending without momentum

While most issues with player movement when it comes to sliding has to do with players off the ball, here is one of my Athletic Bilbao player dribbling with sliding feet. It's subtle, not a terribly big deal, but again reinforces the issue. These sliding issues seem to be at their worst when players are engaged in some form of jockeying animation:

YouTube - Athletic Bilbao Feet Sliding while Dribble Jockeying

This one's funny. A typical FIFA 11 exaggerated push:

YouTube - BvD Exaggerated Push

Here my Copenhagen player is dispossessed, but as if he were on skis he slides around in a 180 degree turn, and of course quickly catches up to the dribbler:

YouTube - Copenhagen Defender Turn 1

Here it is from a better angle. Again, watch how my player turns and recovers. You simply cannot move like this in real life. Yes if you're skiing, snowboarding, or skating, but not if you're on grass wearing studs:

YouTube - Copenhagen Defender Turn 2

Here's another comical push-slide:

YouTube - Zenit Hard Push Sliding

I don't take issue with players getting knocked off the ball, but this is just silly. FIFA 11 has gone too far overboard with the physical side of the game and it hurts the game.

Oh, speaking of overboard on the physical side of the game, this one might just take the cake:

YouTube - Giant CB Knocked Over By Small Opponent

That's my ginormous CB (he's a Bronze-card in UT, Norweigian beast btw; simply awesome) getting knocked over by some tiny midfielder. Not only is he knocked down but he does some weird face plant.

Now I love that ginormous CB but he should not be able to move like this. No one should. This is all through manipulating the jockey button. This is also a pretty good example of how ridiculously easy and simple defending is in the game, so pathetic that I never use the tackle button. Jockey is like the magic defending button in FIFA 11:

YouTube - Jokeying Unrealistic with Big CB

Believe it or not, here's an example of momentum done well in FIFA 11... except that it's then followed immediately by another instance of physics defying defending with no inertia effect. You'll notice that when my winger stops the defender does a quick pause before moving again. That's more like it should be. But then when my next player stops and changes direction, the CPU defender does an immediate pivot turn with no penalty for so quickly trying to change direction. It's unrealistic and again a reason why the CPU defense can feel like it's "cheating" - instant AI reflexes + lack of physics = AI defense "cheating":

YouTube - No Momentum following good momentum

Now if there were a time when you'd expect sliding to occur it would be in the snow, right? Well not in FIFA 11. Watch how my player (in tan and blue) is able to react and change direction on a dime, with no pause or penalty of inertia. I'm not asking for the guy to break his leg or anything. Just a simple one second pause would do the trick. (Oh but then there's plenty of sliding going on once the two players later in the clip begin jockeying for possession.):

YouTube - No Momentum Snow

Here my defender (again in tan and blue) pivots and turns through the use of the jockey button. You can't turn like that in real life and crap like this ruins defending in FIFA 11. (That and the silly backwards tackle my guy does to get the ball. Who the hell tackles like that?):

YouTube - Pivot Turn Auto Unrealistic Backwards Tackle

Again my gigantic CB, pivoting and sliding, and then of course simply pushing (sliding?) the opposing player of the ball. Typical FIFA 11:

YouTube - Pivot Turn Jockeying Push Tackle

Watch how my Villareal player slides a couple feet to the ball. Wtf?:

YouTube - Villareal Player Feet Slide


And more sliding. Again, watch the feet:

YouTube - Villareal Player Pushed and Sliding

I've got plenty more but I think that'll do for now. If anyone still doesn't think there's problems with player movement, well, then I'll pray for your soul.

My other big gripe is with the two footed auto tackling, and if you want to see some vids of those let me know. This one though is one of my favs. Check out the ridiculous spread eagle tackle. And again, this is with just using the jockey button. I do not bother with the tackle or teammate press buttons in FIFA 11:

YouTube - Spread Eagle Auto Tackle
 
EatonTJ said:
I'm agreeing with you that the animations don't match up with the players movement 100% of the time, especially if you are looking for something as subtle as momentum. However, I don't think EA should eliminate players from moving in ways that would be realistic in real life.

Obviously, I'm sure that even if we just replace all of FIFA 11 players with X's and O's floating around the pitch, we could still disagree on what movement is realistic and what isn't. I'm of the opinion that professional footballers are elite athletes, and the best of 'em have such balance and agility that they can cut at extreme angles without losing much speed.

So... even if EA can't animate everything, I'd rather they allow for the best players to move with exceptional agility and speed as applicable. You clearly are demanding 1:1 animation with a complete physics system to govern everything. Sounds great, but we are way off.

Since you don't need the time machine, can I borrow it to go back in time before having this conversation? Cripes, I'm out on this one.
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Please do not put words in my mouth. As I've said before, I have no problem with imperfections. My problem is that in FIFA 11 the imperfections unbalance the game drastically in the favor of one side, the defense.

There are two solutions to the issue: 1) Give the offensive players unrealistic advantages to even things out; or 2) Eliminate the most egregious offenses so that defending isn't so easy. Personally I like solution #2.
 
Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg
 
This thread is turning more into the PES one from a few years ago. With those asking for a solid game being spoken to as if we/they don't "get" the game because we don't want to fantasise excuses.

I'm not sure what else can be done or shown (good job Max) to prove what is wrong with the game. As I said before if it was just lacking animations it woulnd't be an issue, it's that fact that the response from the AI is instant and takes away any basis of physics "(something the game has been sold on btw!)
 
Problem is that Rutter and Patterson probably feels like EatonTJ, so we're screwed even with quality feedback like max is giving.
 
Fantastic post max. I'm probably going to stick it up in the Feedback area on the official forums if that's ok? I've already stuck it in the GC area in case devs are knocking about there, and I'll PM it to devs from work.
 
I don't think there's any doubt that the movement in the game is often unreal. The examples of a player pivoting around another are due to the 360 jostling system, where it locks two players together when they get within a certain proximity. They just need to fix it so that such sharp changes of direction break that lock.

The close up of feet sliding while dribbling is not really an issue. It happens in PES to an even greater extent and will happen in any football game. Each avatar is just a lollipop stick floating around with animated feet manipulated to try and give the illusion of touching the ball/ground. Moonwalking has been around forever and I don't imagine it is going away soon.

The two-footed/spread-eagle tackles I'm not that bothered about, they're just tackle animations. The main issue there is that the game shouldn't auto-tackle for you.

From a design point of view there's some logic to the fact that jockeying facilitates quick changes of direction, because that's exactly its basic purpose as a game mechanic. It's overdone, obviously, but I guess there's an initial intent there to make jockey worthwhile and important without killing responsiveness across the board. There's a fine balance yet to be found. In FIFA10 the inability of defenders to change direction was a killer, especially considering they were so often heading in the wrong direction to begin with.
 
To be honest I really agree with Mfmax about the physics. I've said in the past that the unrealistically fast turns and accelerations that pull against the actual force of movement allow the AI to close you down in faster, more aggressive ways.

On a different note, I'll post a couple of vids later that show also one of my main problems with the game, that of the AI's physical challenges going to the extreme. One of the vids will show Arshavin trying to hold off a defender who is basically leaning into Arshavin's neck with his elbow/forearm, until he gives possession away. In real life it'd be a free kick and a card of some sort. I still think the jostling system is totally unbalanced, and when combined with the ease in which you can turn/accelerate, makes it even more noticeable. There's nothing remotely refined in the game's defending, it's pure aggression, which is totally wrong in my opinion.

But I do agree with the points about the game's bizarre player physics. I think that PES also fails in this respect, but in almost opposite ways. There IS more inertia, but I think PES needs another year to refine it. PES certainly, for me, has a greater feel of a more realistic game, however I'm with mfmax again in that I'm just plumping now for one of the games that provide the most fun, as both for me are drastically flawed. I think for the purpose of the medium being a videogame, we need a certain level of compromise between the two titles in terms of responsiveness and player physics.

For all FIFA's problems, of which I've done something to alleviate, I can't put up with PES' bugs any longer. I can't go more than 2 matches without the game freaking out on me - whether it be goalkeepers running away from the ball, refs penalising me in goalscoring chances when I have the ball at my feet and somehow calling me up for a foul, player switching issues, the list goes on. If PES sorts these out for next year then I think it'll be by far the better game, but we'll have to wait and see.

I mentioned earlier about the robust challenges, well, I decided to go back to basics, switch back down to Professional level, and try to re-learn how to play. I changed cameras to broadcast so I can see a decent amount of the pitch, and so far, despite being on a lower difficulty, it played like a revelation. Possession play was really realistic, the goals I scored were too. The key to this, that I mentioned a few days ago, was the fact that I realised I was basically running headlong into the opposition, which suits their rugby tackling style. I'd never considered it, but the varying degrees of speed in which you can travel purely by moving the left directional stick really affects the attitude of the AI. Without even sprinting, travelling with the ball, say, from left to right, but pushing the left stick hard to the right, sees your player do a slow 'standard' dribble but the AI reacts and closes you down instantly.

However, moving left to right by barely moving the left stick to the right, sees your player move even slower. The AI doesn't see it as you making an urgent move forwards, and I've found that I can even keep possession on the edge of the AI's penalty area, and it'll stand off a little more. Okay, so not all the time, but a fair amount. I even managed to dribble between two players in this slow movement, and create a good chance. By combining this with the 360 dribble, or using L2, controlling the ball by directing your first touch away from the AI defender, it helps massively, and can aid a far more realistic game.

This is only on Professional level, mind. I've yet to try it on World Class, so I'm expecting this to be blown out of the water as I get trampled on by the first defender I see.....

If only FIFA could drastically tone down the 'jostling' system they introduced in FIFA10, and tighten up their positioning as compensation, it'd be great. It's the feeling of being hounded by rabid defenders that puts me off, making it feel like an online game against a ten year old. Hell, I was astonished when I first played a match in FIFA11 when I saw the AI on the edge of my own penalty area when I took a goal kick, trying to pressure me and pinch the ball off me before it had even come back into play.
 
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TikTikTikTikTik said:
This thread is turning more into the PES one from a few years ago. With those asking for a solid game being spoken to as if we/they don't "get" the game because we don't want to fantasise excuses.

I'm not sure what else can be done or shown (good job Max) to prove what is wrong with the game. As I said before if it was just lacking animations it woulnd't be an issue, it's that fact that the response from the AI is instant and takes away any basis of physics "(something the game has been sold on btw!)
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Whe can see what is wrong with the game, but the tone of nerf's last post articulates what some of us think about those things. We think they are being thrown out of proportion, and to watch a bombardment of videos advertising the problem only exaggerates it even further. The insistence on posting things like sliding make me wonder whether any of what we said was understood...it's not the feet that propel the movement so to argue that it ruins the game or that the physics is way off is somewhat superficial as players don't go around sliding for the entire game. Their is no fantasy of excuses, if you disagree fine, but to me it clearly doesn't impact the game, or even outcome of certain instances in the game as much as is being made out to be. We go even further apart when people say that previous versions of Fifa were better, that to me highlights the point and is the most absurd statement of all. To each his own...
 
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romagnoli said:
Nothing has yet, officially. But they have been looking at it for a long while.
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I like the idea of sliders, in theory. The trouble I have with them is it fragments the gamerbase even further. Fifa already offers many combinations of assists, but then layer on top gameplay sliders and the amount of people essentially playing the same game configuration gets smaller and smaller. This is fine for offline players, but gets complicated online.

I'm more in favour of a uniform experience - same control scheme, same gameplay settings for everybody - something which PES offers for all it's faults.
 
Sliders for offline play is a good idea. I imagine they could be disabled for online. There must be a way to have manual/assisted players lounges for online play as well. This game is so much better on manual. I am world class crap and need to turn down the difficulty on manual but it is a lot more fun.
 
Jamezinho said:
I like the idea of sliders, in theory. The trouble I have with them is it fragments the gamerbase even further. Fifa already offers many combinations of assists, but then layer on top gameplay sliders and the amount of people essentially playing the same game configuration gets smaller and smaller. This is fine for offline players, but gets complicated online.

I'm more in favour of a uniform experience - same control scheme, same gameplay settings for everybody - something which PES offers for all it's faults.
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EA's NHL series works with a default set of game styles built around preset slider options. It's something like Hardcore, pro, rookie, noob and they all have their own unique styles so i imagine it'd work like that. It's not perfectly customizable but its better than nothing and i imagine against a friend you would in theory be able to customize your own sliders anyway you wanted to. I haven't played NHL online but if it doesn't work this way then i'd be surprised.

It's a good idea and one i'll think they'll go with and then market it as a new gameplay mode guaranteed to create an authentic experience with a tagline like 'take control of the game'.

FIFA hardly has a uniform audience though all based on wanting the same thing, i just can't see a uniform control scheme working.

Regarding PES' uniform experience i'll be interested to see whether it stays that way for PES 2012 because with their addition of manual passing (something i assume theyre refining for PES 2012) it may bring about the inclusion of two game modes. Manual controls are still optional in PES in semi-assisted games and i don't personally think they offer any kind of advantage. People want to use them to make the game more authentic to them but because they offer little advantage they surely need a reason to allow people who want to use them to do so in an environment built around that need/desire.
 
Great post Max, you'd have to be a fool to try and excuse any of that stuff...

I take it that wasn't even from a huge amount of time on the game? I played FIFA 11 today with some mates and picked up on such ridiculous movement several times each match!

Something else I'd like to know - is there a special button combo for a proper, high long ball? I like to play some direct football up to my forwards or diagonally over the full backs - PES manual long passing is great for this, but in FIFA the long passes barely get 10 feet off the ground sometimes, and travel far too quickly in most cases. I tried L2 and R2 but neither allowed me to hit the ball as I wished.

Another thing that's a joke in FIFA 11 - the shooting and the keepers. So predictable and unrealistic... There's the odd exception obviously (as with every FIFA), but usually every goal is a classic "typical FIFA goal".
After playing FIFA for the last few years, PES' shooting/keeping systems were a breath of fresh air, finally being able to lash the ball towards goal and feeling like there's a chance of it causing some trouble, or an unskilled keeper fumbling a venomous shot...
The keepers may be animated horribly in PES 2011, but their behaviour and reactions are far more human-like.

There's something about FIFA's shooting which makes it completely "emotionless" - you can hit a shot that pings towards the goal very quickly, but it never "feels" like there's any real menace behind it.

Also, keeper kicks - they never seem to travel far enough on FIFA.
They barely go over the half way line... Play as United or Inter on PES 2011 and kick the ball with VDS/Julio Cesar, their kicks are huge (almost reaching the opposing box on occasions).

FIFA makes you tap into your "gaming brain" rather than your footballing one - you have to turn down opportunities to shoot when the ball tees up (seemingly) perfectly for having a dig at goal, because it won't even be close 9/10 times because you're not in a "sweet spot".
You have to turn down the opportunity to spray the ball about with long passes, because their trajectories/physics are completely screwed/unrealistic.
You have to turn down the opportunity to take a man on in a realistic fashion, because they can move in inhuman ways.

PES, despite it's obvious flaws, gets the above right, and usually makes you think like a footballer rather than a gamer.
 
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Rob92 said:
Great post Max, you'd have to be a fool to try and excuse any of that stuff...
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Don't qute appreciate being called a fool but anyhow, I don't think you understand the argument, furthemore the context of the argument. The only person saying anything relevant to the argument was Romagnoli who understood, but still disagreed.
 
ibra77 said:
Don't qute appreciate being called a fool but anyhow, I don't think you understand the argument, furthemore the context of the argument. The only person saying anything relevant to the argument was Romagnoli who understood, but still disagreed.
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There really is no argument concerning Max's videos/post, it's pretty much factual that humans cannot move in the way they do on FIFA.
 
You can play FIFA the way you wanna play it. If you want to game it and play with the sprint and tackle buttons pinned you can do that. It is nice to be able to use a bit of pace and the knock on to get room to play. If I have one complaint it would be the overpowering defensive capabilities programmed into the game.
Overall all things considered (graphics and everything else) I am having more fun playing FIFA than PES now. Neither game is perfect but in my opinion EA got more right than wrong and have put together a great GAME. Neither is a simulator. Terry cannot catch Walcott. I hated this about PES.
I just started watching football this year played only American sports but you don't have to be Pele to know what the hell is going on.
All opinion anyway but I know which game I prefer.
 
romagnoli said:
Fantastic post max. I'm probably going to stick it up in the Feedback area on the official forums if that's ok? I've already stuck it in the GC area in case devs are knocking about there, and I'll PM it to devs from work.
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Do whatever you want with the clips. It's why I posted them.

nerf said:
I don't think there's any doubt that the movement in the game is often unreal. The examples of a player pivoting around another are due to the 360 jostling system, where it locks two players together when they get within a certain proximity. They just need to fix it so that such sharp changes of direction break that lock.

The close up of feet sliding while dribbling is not really an issue. It happens in PES to an even greater extent and will happen in any football game. Each avatar is just a lollipop stick floating around with animated feet manipulated to try and give the illusion of touching the ball/ground. Moonwalking has been around forever and I don't imagine it is going away soon.

The two-footed/spread-eagle tackles I'm not that bothered about, they're just tackle animations. The main issue there is that the game shouldn't auto-tackle for you.

From a design point of view there's some logic to the fact that jockeying facilitates quick changes of direction, because that's exactly its basic purpose as a game mechanic. *It's overdone, obviously, but I guess there's an initial intent there to make jockey worthwhile and important without killing responsiveness across the board. There's a fine balance yet to be found. *In FIFA10 the inability of defenders to change direction was a killer, especially considering they were so often heading in the wrong direction to begin with.
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I understand that we all have different ideas for what we think are FIFA's strengths and weaknesses, but saying that foot sliding - or broken physics and unrealistic movement in general - is not an issue doesn't make sense to me. And just because these "issues" exist in PES or any other previous game does not mean they shouldn't be eliminated in future releases. Especially when they unbalance the game in the way i believe they do with this year's game.

My belief is that many of the issues I've mentioned have a greater negative influence on overall gameplay in FIFA 11 than in previous FIFAs or other sports games. IMO, EA went overboard with their jostling, physicality, and 360 movement engines.

A common complaint among FIFA fans this year has been that defending is too easy and is over-powered, unbalancing gameplay. I simply seek to answer the question of why that is. In my opinion a major part of the answer is the unrealistic degree of freedom in movement for defenders.

And even though you aren't bothered by the two-footed hop tackles, I do believe they are an important part of the equation - if you allow defenders physics-defying, unrealistic tackles, then of course gameplay will be unbalanced.

It's bad enough that auto-tackling in FIFA 11 has so dumbed-down defending, but then when you throw in some of the overly-effective tackle animations, defending - and gameplay - becomes ridiculous. Here are some examples of what I mean:

This first clip contains a few of my biggest pet peeves with fifa 11: First, straight from kickoff the stupid offensive AI allows itself to be so easily dispossessed; second, notice how my striker tackles - through a ridiculously wide spread eagle hop-slide tackle; third, I don't get the ball on first attempt, but another easy auto tackle does get me the ball. This kind of play does not happen in real football - at least not frequently - but are regular occurrences in FIFA. Defending is just so ridiculously easy. As always, these are all auto-tackles - the jockey button is all you need to defend effectively in FIFA 11:

**YouTube - UT Striker Kickoff Two Footed Tackles

Here's another two-footed hop-slide tackle. I'm not saying the defender should not have been able to defend successfully in this situation. This is just another example of the over the top defending animations in FIFA 11:

YouTube - Hamburg Hard Tackle Slo Mo

I might have posted this one previously. It's just silly - I think I pulled a groin muscle just looking at it:

YouTube - Spread Eagle Auto Tackle

Here's another kickoff clip. The first tackle my striker makes is just terrible but I'm not sure what's worse: the stupid offensive AI that dribbles straight into my striker or how insanely easy and effective these two-footed auto tackles are:

YouTube - UT Kickoff Tackles

What do you get when you combine stupid offensive AI with overly-effective auto-tackling? This beauty of a clip (and I play either on Legendary or World Class difficulty!):

YouTube - Auto Tackle Off Goalkick

Sometimes these auto-tackles are a real pain in the ass. It's bad enough that defenders will attempt tackles when all you're doing is holding the jockey button, but there's also auto-fouling in FIFA 11. Note the animation and how wide my defender reaches with his tackling leg - you don't tackle like that in real life:

YouTube - Auto Tackle Foul

Speaking of auto-fouling, what the hell happens here? I barely touch the guy and it's a foul. And notice again my auto-tackle's animation and the spread eagle span of my legs - this is a common problem in the game in which defenders practically trap dribblers with these spread-legged "tackles":

YouTube - Auto Tackle Foul B

FIFA 11's tackling animations are overly-effective and unrealistic, like this one here. This just doesn't happen in real life:

YouTube - Auto Tackle C

This one would be comical if it didn't hurt so much looking at it:

YouTube - Auto Tackle D

Complaints of FIFA 11 being a "tackle fest" are common and here's a nice example showing a series of fouls and unrealistic tackling. The first tackle is clearly a foul; in the second the tackler makes an impossible reach-around tackle; the third i think is a decent sliding tackle; but then the fourth is another example of just how easy and over-powered tackling is. All-in-all, a typical FIFA 11 series of play:

YouTube - Multiple Auto Tackles Over Physical Play

Another clip that shows several of FIFA 11's worst issues. First, my player is knocked off the ball frighteningly easy in what surely must be a foul; next, my defender regains possession quickly through a two-footed hop-slide tackle; and third, when my CB passes the ball, watch the absolute perfect ball control at the feet of my fullback:

*YouTube - Push Foul Auto Tack Perfect First Touch

I'm not sure what annoys me worse, the two-footed spread-legged tackles, or the overly physical body check fouls like this one, a personal fav:

YouTube - Newcastle Bump Tackle

I can't decide what's worse, the stupid AI that allows its CB to get caught in such a position, or how effortlessly my ST is able to push the CB aside:

YouTube - CB pushed off ball too easy by ST

If this isn't a foul then I don't know what is. Again, it's just so easy:

*YouTube - Push Off Ball Foul

A common variation of the two-footed hop tackle is this one in which the defender adds a turn to the movement. Laughably effective and easy, all with only using the jockey button:

YouTube - Barca Unrealistic Auto Tackle

Here are two examples in the same clip of these weird backwards tackles. The first isn't that bad i suppose, but in the second, Puyol would never tackle like that. Tackling animations need some serious tweaking for FIFA 12:

YouTube - Barca Two Unrealistic Auto Tackles

As i've said, EA appears to have gotten more than a little carried away with the jockeying and freedom of movement systems. Here, watch how quickly my defender is able to move when jockeying sideways, keeping up with the winger with ease. Oh, and that's my CB, Pique, by the way:

*YouTube - Pique Jockey

Most of my annoyances with player movement has to do with defenders and off the ball movements, however here's one of my striker having issues once he gains possession. Again the jockey system is to blame, as you'll see my player, after his first touch, actually slow down to engage the defender that is trailing him. I still score, but that is besides the point:

YouTube - 360 Jostling Sucks

Another example of the jockeying system's suckiness. I'm not sure my striker would have reached the pass but that doesn't change the fact that my player actually slows his speed to engage the trailing player. That just wouldn't happen IRL:

YouTube - 360 Jostling Sucks C





Now you may think that none of these individual issues are evidence of game breaking issues by themselves. But, when taken all together, what I believe you have is a game undermined by sloppy, unrealistic, and even broken movement systems. Everywhere that FIFA 11 is discussed a common complaint is that FIFA is overly physical and favors the defensive side of the game. The clips I've posted are my answer as to why that is.
 
lancers said:
You can play FIFA the way you wanna play it. If you want to game it and play with the sprint and tackle buttons pinned you can do that. It is nice to be able to use a bit of pace and the knock on to get room to play. If I have one complaint it would be the overpowering defensive capabilities programmed into the game.
Overall all things considered (graphics and everything else) I am having more fun playing FIFA than PES now. Neither game is perfect but in my opinion EA got more right than wrong and have put together a great GAME. Neither is a simulator. Terry cannot catch Walcott. I hated this about PES.
I just started watching football this year played only American sports but you don't have to be Pele to know what the hell is going on.
All opinion anyway but I know which game I prefer.
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I've heard this said so many times but never actually seen Terry catch Walcott. Milner can barely catch Arshavin.
 
mfmaxpower said:
but saying that foot sliding - or broken physics and unrealistic movement in general - is not an issue doesn't make sense to me. And just because these "issues" exist in PES or any other previous game does not mean they shouldn't be eliminated in future releases. Especially when they unbalance the game in the way i believe they do with this year's game.
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True, but just speaking from a pragmatic view on the technology. It would be great to have perfect foot planting while [running + turning + dribbling + jostling] all at the same time, but good luck with that. And ultimately, what will it gain? Feet stutter and slide in PES dribbling, people still enjoy it. I enjoy dribbling in FIFA, I can't see the feet from Tele cam. Clearly the more important things are controls/physics that feel right. I want a game that feels right to control, I'm not going to get upset by a lack of 1:1 visual perfection.

mfmaxpower said:
And even though you aren't bothered by the two-footed hop tackles, I do believe they are an important part of the equation - if you allow defenders physics-defying, unrealistic tackles, then of course gameplay will be unbalanced.
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I understand, and they could certainly be toned down for the lower-rated tacklers in particular - I honestly wouldn't mind if I saw someone like Nigel de Jong doing those tackle anims. It's just that I think the tackle anims are of lesser importance than the following:
- the auto-tackling;
- the way that excessive stamina/acceleration/homing permits such constantly aggressive pressure in the first place;
- the AI's (lack of) interest in protecting the ball, especially sub-Legendary;
- the limited capability of the dribbler to withstand a challenger.

Fix those first and I honestly suspect you'd be more accepting of these types of tackles, if the scenario was occurring less frequently, if they had to be timed well to be successful, and if the dribbler could protect the ball more easily against them.

One thing I instantly liked about FIFA11, right from first playing the demo, was the need to work to protect the ball. That's been pretty un-common in football games over the years, I think. It's far more engrossing and makes you work space more thoughtfully if you fear getting close to a defender and are punished for being lazy with the ball, and for that to happen they require some effective tackle anims as a deterrent.

In most of those videos the ball-possessor is just dribbling forwards or turning, rarely attempting to shield. Personally I would prioritise making shielding more effective, almost like a 'Block' in a fighting game but one you can do on the move. I'm fairly sure they toned down the effectiveness of the RT-shield between the demo and the full game, which is a shame because you used to be able to do this:
YouTube - FIFA11 Demo - Improved Shielding
 
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It's refreshing to see people critiquing Fifa and people who enjoy playing Fifa without snide little digs and insults about foolish idiots and the like, oh wait......
 
Placebo said:
It's refreshing to see people critiquing Fifa and people who enjoy playing Fifa without snide little digs and insults about foolish idiots and the like, oh wait......
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Only an idiot would not enjoy this discussion.

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The foot sliding in PES is nothing, nothing like as bad as in FIFA. Sure there is stuttering but the movement of the players is still sufficiently bound to momentum, and to the animations that represent the foot interacting with the ground, that during play the game feels solid and the players feel in contact with the ground. As a result it is a lot easier to deliberately toy with the opposition's momentum while managing your own.

Things like whether you're able to see the feet in contact with the ground from your camera angle is inviting the fact that if you did benefit from seeing your player's animations then you wouldn't be zoomed out as far as possible to just see the optimum amount of pitch instead. Besides that though, the very reason why ensuring the movement of the model representing the player is bound to momentum, and ensuring that there is a distinct and easily mentally processed correlation between the movement of the player on the pitch and the animations that represent how the player would move in such situations is precisely because it is functional and instructive for the user. You talk about the players in FIFA essentially being little markers floating on top of the pitch, as if the problem is that we the user should be throwing out how we understand human beings interacting with the ground rather than the animations of the footballer and the movement of that counter combining to create an authentic illusion of interaction with the ground. This is what we're asking for - it's not trivial, it's not just cosmetic, it's utterly bloody basic, and is very clear to those of us who have extensively played titles that respect the significance of it and are not happy playing a game that routinely shows itself up as just animations trapped inside a glorified 3D radar.
 
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nerf said:
In most of those videos the ball-possessor is just dribbling forwards or turning, rarely attempting to shield. Personally I would prioritise making shielding more effective, almost like a 'Block' in a fighting game but one you can do on the move. I'm fairly sure they toned down the effectiveness of the RT-shield between the demo and the full game, which is a shame because you used to be able to do this:
YouTube - FIFA11 Demo - Improved Shielding
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Glad i'm not the only one who noticed this. It was the first thing I tried on the demo and it worked a treat. I was running with Di Maria and then let go of everything and held RT and he shielded it brilliantly. Looked and felt amazing.

You cannot do this in the full game, and it's VERY annoying. The shielding with RT just feels poor and unresponsive now and you always get the ball taken away from you. Why they couldn't leave it like in the demo I don't know.
 
romagnoli said:
Sure there is stuttering but the movement of the players is still sufficiently bound to momentum, and to the animations that represent the foot interacting with the ground, that during play the game feels solid and the players feel in contact with the ground.
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Precisely! That's (in bold) the important part, the bit that makes the difference, not how the feet animate after the fact.

To use an analogy. In PES you say that the shooting mechanics are great, due to meaningful body position etc... because to you it feels good. Yet if you watch the animation of most shots in PES, neither the swing of the leg nor the part of the ball struck bear any resemblance to the trajectory of the ball. Do you care? I doubt it. To me this is the same. As long as the action feels correct and logical, how accurately the feet are subsequently interpreted is secondary.

romagnoli said:
This is what we're asking for - it's not trivial, it's not just cosmetic, it's utterly bloody basic
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It's technologically (over?)ambitious, is what it is. The stuttering/sliding happens because it is necessary to make the feet look as if they are pushing the ball. I will be positively stunned if that is eliminated in the near future.
 
Can you even manually shield the ball anymore? It seems to be a kind of automatic thing when I try it, only if you don't press anything and put yourself between the ball and your opponent.

They still seem to just run in and take it off me though, which I agree is a shame because effective, and more deliberate shielding of the ball would slow the pace more, making it all the more tactical. You could use it more effectively to bring others into play for example, and would make using a big target man more of a viable option than it currently is.
 
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