Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

I have no idea why but they took the R2 shielding from last year and have made it almost useless now as it doesn't seem aware of who your trying to shield from. Which just invites the tackle.
 
It's a tenuous analogy. Firstly the shooting animations in PES mostly bear a good relation to how the ball moves, an in several cases are far more appropriate than those in FIFA. Secondly you are comparing the minutiae of where exactly on the ball the foot appears to hit in replays (which is typically a difference of a few inches) to whether a player appears to be in a position to push off an approach the ball or is facing the wrong way. The gap between the two concepts is absolutely cavernous. This is the problem - you guys think that how a player is standing or moving is as immaterial and unreadable as having to zoom in on a replay and work out in retrospect how things panned out, which completely discredits the human brain's capacity to instinctively absorb biomechanics detail like whether someone's caught leaning one way or the other. You just can't do that if the game doesn't make the movement of the feet and the balance of the player relate in some way to how he moves and how he is capable of moving.

It's not overambitious at all - they'd already achieved it but upped the responsiveness of the game (which is fine, especially if focussed in the right areas, but they've completely overdone it) rather than lowering the overeffectiveness of the defending, and PES is a lot closer with things as they are because it keeps the integrity of its momentum system and first touch.
 
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Adding to that - the footplanting hasn't fallen away because it isn't technologically achievable. It has fallen away because it just hasn't had the attention it needs. Even that cutscene where a player is shown walking along, shows his torso hovering at the exact same height, him walking as if he needs a shit and his feet still sliding along the ground despite him not actually doing anything demanding. And this is something the camera deliberately zooms in on!
 
I don't remember having much of an issue with the player momentum/inertia of FIFA 08, and that obviously had feet sliding etc (as does every football game, to some degree).

The issue isn't with how the feet interact visually with the ground, it's the inhuman agility and movement which are the problem - no matter how many more linking animations were added, a lot of the defenders' movement in FIFA 11 would still look ridiculous.
 
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Rob92 said:
I don't remember having much of an issue with the player momentum/inertia of FIFA 08, and that obviously had feet sliding etc (as does every football, to some degree).

The issue isn't with how the feet interact visually with the ground, it's the inhuman agility and movement which are the problem - no matter how many more linking animations were added, a lot of the defenders' movement in FIFA 11 would still look ridiculous.
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Exactly! No football video game has ever had a perfect representation of feet planting, momentum, physical interactions, etc., and yet previous FIFAs, or PES for that matter, did not have their gameplay so affected by too much freedom in movement. Frequently they have been held back by too little freedom of movement but usually the limitations influenced both sides of the game so there weren't such major imbalances between offense and defense.

Like Rom said, this isn't so much a discussion of technical limitations as one of a lack in attention to detail in fundamental areas, like player physics. If anything we're talking about the opposite here: it's not about technical limitations but rather the dev team allowing themselves to be carried away by their shiny new toys, like the jostling system, 360 degree movement, and the physicality engine. So it's not about technical limitations, it's about reigning in the technology so that it works within the realm of reality and not fantasy.

To paraphrase both Rob and Rom, ultimately the issue isn't how the feet interact visually with the ground, it's that players are granted inhuman, physics-defying abilities - they are not bound by the laws of momentum.

Speaking of physics, I'd like to point out how fantastic the ball physics are in FIFA, which was not the case in FIFA 08, and is still something PES hasn't quite gotten right yet, and I'd just like to say that if FIFA can make such solid strides forward with its ball physics over the last few years, I see no reason why player physics can't be given the same level of attention to detail. I have not once that i can remember zoomed in on a replay to watch where the ball hit the ground or impacted a player's boot because I have never felt the need to - I've never felt cheated or wronged by the ball physics engine as I have with the systems governing player movement.

So nerf, again, it's not about expecting a perfect 1:1 visual representation. It's about wanting a football game in which the rules of reality are enforced. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the importance of enforcing some of those rules, like the spread eagle tackle and other exaggerated animations. I'll agree that the auto-tackling and other issues you mentioned are of equal if not more importance, but I do believe the tackling animations need tweaking, if only to lessen a animation's area of influence - those spread-legged animations make it so easy to trap a dribbler, to me it's an unfair advantage. I'll admit though that, at least for when playing against the AI, much would be improved if the CPU actually valued possession.

I also agree with you that making the shield feature more effective should be a top priority, and conjunctly giving dribblers a better chance at withstanding physical challenges. On the flip side of things, a major issue with ball possession I believe has to do with the defensive jockey feature - the speed and agility at which defenders can move while jockeying is too much, effectively eliminating the feel of defenders being on the back foot. Many of the worst violations of foot-sliding and momentum breaking occur while jockeying.
 
LTFC said:
Can you even manually shield the ball anymore? It seems to be a kind of automatic thing when I try it, only if you don't press anything and put yourself between the ball and your opponent.

They still seem to just run in and take it off me though, which I agree is a shame because effective, and more deliberate shielding of the ball would slow the pace more, making it all the more tactical. You could use it more effectively to bring others into play for example, and would make using a big target man more of a viable option than it currently is.
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It's very possible, even when it's two defenders on one, it's possible to protect the ball and get good enough to do it often, even in the last third of the pitch. It takes some fiddling and getting use to though. I've said this before, if you've got a problem spend a couple of games doing nothing but trying to solve that problem, you'll defintely see some progress quickly. Once you see that initial progress you'll realize it's a matter of subtelty, and the more you pay attention to minor details, angles and the like, the more successful you will be at it.
 
I have been reading this debate and I reverted to Fifa from 08 onwards. I have started playing PES over the last few weeks and I wasn't sure what I thought.

Although I think Pes has overdone inertia, momentum etc they definately have the feeling of dribbling with a good player rewarding. You really do get the feeling that a sudden movement or quick feet can gain an extra bit of space in Pes. I did a nice knock on with Walcott and the defender totally read it wrong, it looked so natural and real. It is hard to explain it, but it is something I haven't really seen in fifa...definately to that level anyway.

I have alot of problems with PES and fifa together. But Pes is alot more fun and less of a chore than Fifa.

It's wierd though because I think that Fifa is more of a complete game and manual on fifa is more rewarding, but It is hard and sometimes I feel the fun element is sapped out a bit. It's nice to whack on Pes and not worry about Manual etc and know that everybody is in the same boat.

I'm still torn between the two, I'm going to go back to fifa in a couple of weeks and make a proper comparison. But at the moment I think both sides of the current argument in this thread are right in some ways.
 
So I tried the game again tonight, using the slower dribbling and largely playing it at slightly quicker than walking pace, wow what a difference. Okay, so it's only on Pro level, but the game looked and played so realistically, especially on broadcast camera.

I think FIFA is a really odd game in that it has the capacity to play in a realistic way (though I've not tried playing this way on higher difficulties), but can also degenerate into a stab tackle fest in the middle of the park if you let it. Online, well, I wouldn't go anywhere near it. I haven't since FIFA10. Maybe the game allows for a more realistic way of playing but is open for the older style pressure, pressure tackle, sprint, pressure kind of approach.

I've managed to get some decent dribbling in with people's advice, here are a few examples from tonight. All of them used the left stick just barely moved in the required direction, making a slower player movement which I never realised makes your player take more deliberate touches of the ball, and also by using usually LT (L2) a lot. I was happy with the goals anyways. While most of the goals didn't directly involve really beating players, dribbling slower seemed to make the AI give me that tiny bit more space in really advanced areas of the pitch. If a large space opened up in front of you, then short bursts of sprinting and the knock on were useful, but ONLY if you've made enough space ahead of yourself;

YouTube - 1

Moving the players at a slower pace, especially using LT and occasionally the right stick to aid changing direction when taking a pass, seems to allow the players to perform slightly more realistic looking body physics. Their superman turns against gravity didn't really happen, as if the AI was more unsure of where you were going to go because you were travelling slower, and the man on the ball is also taking more touches of the ball. Maybe that's it, I don't know, but the AI certainly wasn't throwing it's weight around like it normally does.

Perhaps if you move in a more direct fashion, even just doing a standard, normal dribble but by pushing the direction stick hard in whatever direction you are going in, the AI seems more certain you're going to go in that direction perhaps because it's harder for your player to then change direction as subtly as you do when going at a snail's pace. I think this slower speed looks far more realistic too, only rarely do real life players get involved in bursts of flat out sprinting. It may be a load of rubbish, I don't know, but the AI certainly seemed more unsure where I'd go. Usually, dribbling quicker, or sprinting, sees the AI able to read your movements too easily. The speed at which the AI comes over to close you down seems to be generally slower when barely tilting the direction stick in the direction you're going.

Hope some of this makes sense, but drastically slowing down the pace of the game makes it far more realistic. That said, the flaws are still all there to see, and it's strange that I'm having to find a more realistic way of playing in order to make the AI behave a bit more realistically too.

I've also abandoned using the pressure buttons to tackle. I just use sprint, maybe to catch up, and jockey to try and tackle. This also helps when I get the ball back, because players are more readily available rather than all bunched up because I'd just forced them out of position to close down the attacker.

Like I said, this may or may not make a whole lot of sense, but the analogue stick can definitely be used to control the pace of a slow dribble, and the slow you go, the easier it is to turn out of trouble when someone comes in to tackle, and seemingly (on Pro level at least) the AI doesn't charge in as much, partly because it's more unsure as to which direction your player will turn but also because you're not closing down the space between yourself and the defender anywhere near as much.
 
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LTFC said:
So I tried the game again tonight, using the slower dribbling and largely playing it at slightly quicker than walking pace, wow what a difference. Okay, so it's only on Pro level, but the game looked and played so realistically, especially on broadcast camera.
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nice to see you making progress. For me the progression has almost been scientific and I know that type of gaming isn't everyone’s preference. You create a broad theory about how to do a particular thing in the game and then put it to work.
As you get better the original theory (for example a theory on how to dribble in an XY situation) becomes outdated and replaced by a more sophisticated and accurate theory, and like so the cycle continues as you get better to almost no end of sophistication. I don’t write any of this down or anything but the concepts linger in my mind as I’m playing.
I haven't hardly had time to work on anything other than dribbling (including dealing with the physicality), and I've spent quite some time on passing on the most basic levels but nothing too intricate.
Before my last game I put in a little time on adding variety to my finishing and it paid off immediately as I finished this goal in untypical fashion by my standards.
YouTube - Suarez vs West Ham 1
Suarez with his typically sharp and aggressive movement (in contrast to agger in the last clip) gets free of two defenders before making a pass and then making a brilliant run into space where the defense is out of sorts, one defender peels of unrealistically but he couldn't keep up anyway, Suarez brings the ball on his left before slipping it passed the keeper. Nothing here was predetermined by the way, and I didn't practice that particular finish, I only knew I wanted to do something different and produced that in a moment of improvisation. I'm not aware of any sweet spots or anything like that, the game (on legendary) invites and even necessitates variety and improvisation.

On another note, I must say that football is a physical game and that is what makes its elegance so impressive. While it is still raw, Fifa 11 is the only game to have ever captured this essential part of football and it feels real when you do manage to get away from an overly physical defender or manage to slip that perfect pass with so little time and space. Nothing feels like football more than that – and it’s something which I find absent from other games.
 
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LTFC is correct. If you take your time and slow down the game works but the moment you stop concentrating and play the game passively is when it turns into the speed/strength mess fest. The good thing is that playing conservatively and taking your time actually helps rather than hinders. The problem i've found is that it's really only the case against low AI and real people because the top 2 difficulty levels have a way of just having the ability to defy the laws of the game. You can hardly play the nice slow stuff because its like two juggernauts fighting against each other for possession.
 
ibra77 said:
On another note, I must say that football is a physical game and that is what makes its elegance so impressive. While it is still raw, Fifa 11 is the only game to have ever captured this essential part of football
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True, but i still think Fifa models itself on the English football in that it's strength and speed that matters more than technical stuff. I can't really enjoy playing with Spanish teams when i know how anti-physical the league is and how its so far from what FIFA is like. PES is anti-physicality compared to FIFA and hence i can enjoy playing with Spanish teams much more than English ones.
 
lancers said:
On the lower difficulty levels the game usually gives you the opportunity to play "real". It's on you.:P
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Not really, I upped it to World Class and it's still the same. A little harder, sure, but the principle is the same and allows for far more methodical matches. Loads of problems I had before seem to vanish by playing this way. One main problem I used to complain about was how your players seemed to stick to their positions all the time, and many passes would travel to your player, but he'd have an AI player just intercept it while your player stood still. Well, playing a slower game with slower player movements, better ball control, plus passing backwards, sideways etc when needed seems to really open up the play. Sure, tonight I tried some friendlies using Barcelona, so they're a stupidly easy team to try possession football with, but the principle was still there. I can also really see a lot more of the personality plus now. Player control, passing, dribbling, all have an impact depending on who you're controlling when playing in this way.

I had a practice in the arena, and it's silly how I never realised this before. But you can even do a slower dribble by barely tilting the directional stick and then barely pressing the sprint button. You can easily see the difference, a faster dribble with far more touches on the ball than normal. I knew about the analogue sprint but didn't realise just how subtle the left stick allows you to move, and how this impacts on keeping the ball when under pressure.

I really think the amount of touches you can get on the ball, and resulting body balance has a massive influence on this game, it's something I ignored first time round that I played it. EA don't really make any big statements about how this needs to be used. By travelling slower, I find I'm getting knocked off the ball FAR less than before, your player shields the ball far easier, space opens up easier, and, most importantly, your player doesn't fall over with every challenge. That was a huge annoyance for me before, now I realise it's just because I was travelling faster into challenges. Simple really. Now, the slower movement seems to reduce the aggression in AI challenges (not all the time mind), but I sometimes win the ball back from a tackle because my body is still relatively in balance. Before, I'd hurtle into the challenge, stumble, get knocked over, whatever.

Similarly, approaching jockey tackles with a slower speed of approach to the player also seems more effective without ever needing to use the press button at all.

Here are some vids from earlier tonight to show the difference in dribbling speed, on World Class level. This goal from Klose I scored by controlling the ball using LT (L2), then barely moving in either direction on the left stick. Despite being between two defenders, they hold off more, and I'm able to go one way, then cut back before making a dash into the space that opens up;

YouTube - IMG 0383

This next one shows Messi (okay, so it's Messi, but it still shows what I mean!) winning the ball back near the touchline. By using a combination of LT and a REALLY slow dribbling speed using the direction stick, I was able to keep my distance from the AI defenders, turn back, look for a pass, see it wasn't on, then shield the ball and use his body position to push off down the line. Note how the defender barges into him, which used to result in him probably losing control of the ball and being flattened, but now, because he's got the ball under such close control, and has no fast momentum to upset his body position, Messi shows his strength stats by shrugging off the barge like he does in real life.

YouTube - IMG 0384

This next one shows how slowing your sprint speed opens up space. Alves has tons of space to run into, so I open to a full sprint, but when I get up to the AI defenders I slow right down, to near walking pace. The two defenders would normally just smack into me because I'd be at full speed and not in full control of the ball, but now they hold off because of the change of pace. I do a slow dribble, and a gap opens up between them, so I use the knock on using the right stick between the gap.

YouTube - IMG 0385

This next vid shows the same principle. I sprint into a bit of space at medium speed, then normally, at full tilt of the direction stick, these two players would have pressed right into me and taken the ball. As I get near them, especially the defender on the right, I slow down to walking pace again, and using a touch of LT too, manage to squeeze between the two. This didn't happen very often, but when controlling players like Messi then you can occasionally pull it off;

YouTube - IMG 0386

The final video shows me winning the ball again with Messi, then sprinting into space. Normally, at a really fast speed, the keeper just launches into you and takes the ball. I knock the ball past the last defender using the right stick, then a fraction before I get to the keeper, I slow right down yet again by barely even moving the directional stick, and bizarrely, the keeper this time is outfoxed and doesn't make contact with the ball. I round him and score.

YouTube - IMG 0389

This of course doesn't happen a massive amount, but it does happen. Challenges that would smack you to the ground seem to be much less aggressive and more evenly matched, and skillful players seem able to occasionally just slide past the opposition. Also, I appreciate that most of these vids use Messi, but people from other top teams like Arsenal and Bayern players did similar things all over the pitch. Granted, these are all top players too, but this sort of thing is what separates top players from the rest anyways.

Sorry about the long post, it's just that I'm getting a lot more enjoyment out of the game than ever before, and can see it getting a new lease of life because of something so simple, but that EA really never advise people to use. Just really putting it out there that this seems to work for me and adds a massively new dimension to the gameplay, especially when you use broadcast view to see more of the pitch.

Hope it helps some people, I'd really recommend having a go at different dribbling speeds in the arena and you can see how dribble speed drastically affects the amount of control you have over the ball - whether dribbling only using the stick, using LT (L2), or using the different strengths of directional stick AND the sprint button in combination. Logically that should, and seems to, affect how the AI approaches tackling you, as well as buying yourself the time to make space and avoid tackles, and also allows your team mates the time to take up better positions.
 
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I want to get something off my chest first. When playing on Legendary I faced this spot of ESP from Duff. He performed an avoidance trick as I pressed to slide, a millisecond before my slide actually kicked in. I'd already noticed a number of cases where the CPU pulled off a trick or a turn as I was mid-slide so I have no doubt this wasn't a freakish coincidence.

http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/67559506

Secondly, we've been talking about the defensive lack of momentum in here, but not so much about that of dribblers. For me, this shouldn't be possible. The first turn is 120 degrees or so and the player loses no speed whatsoever. The ball should travel a shorter distance and the player should still need a fraction of a second to sort himself out. This additional momentum should be added onto movements without the ball too in order to keep a balance (and because it is more realistic!).

A possible alternative approach to this turn would be a first stretch with the outside of the foot to stop the ball from rolling on, and a second once he's stopped himself to push the ball back towards goal.

http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/67613307

This comes on to what I want us to talk about if that's ok.



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TL;DR - Skip to the bottom!
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LTFC,

I just tried your stuff with not very noticeable success. I was using Man Utd v Fulham just now on WC and was still being very aggressively pressured on and behind the halfway line. Not noticeably less than when going full tilt on the stick.

I didn't get a chance to use other teams and didn't check what Fulham's aggression slider was set to, wonder what the aggro settings were for the teams you played against LTFC? What level of assist do you use by the way?

Right. I want us to change tack for the moment. Let's go with LTFC's findings for the time being. Let's assume they're correct, or at least half right.

I want to try and pursue getting this style of play LTFC describes, and the stuff that Ibra has been scientifically pursuing for at least 4 months (and still says he doesn't know what he's doing which combined with the fact that nobody plays like this online implies it's pretty inaccessible and is usurped by much brasher styles!), this greater control of player speed and more deliberate use of the ball, to be the norm, rather than something that only a miniscule proportion of the FIFA community ever even try, let alone pursue. I think we all want this to be the case, whether we think it's reasonable to ask us to do so in FIFA 11, and whatever we think about how it'd fare online at the moment. We all want people to be rewarded for timing their movements, controlling their pace and creating space by being more gradual with the ball.

I personally am not convinced that LTFC's walking pace dribbling is actually deliberate. Why? Because when I was talking about a new FK system with Gary P in Canada he said he doesn't like the concept of feathering the stick - of slightly tilting it. So why would he make a game aimed at 8 million or more people where the way to play the game to its fullest is to use a control scheme he doesn't like and that has never even been mentioned in passing by EA or the manual? Something the CPU never uses itself? It doesn't make sense. To me it sounds more like it's being treated in much the same way as standing still - as if the CPU doesn't recognise it as movement, and pressures as aggressively as if you were standing still in whichever area. This isn't really based on more than deduction though - LTFC, I'd appreciate if you could check this out and see if there is a difference.

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My problem with FIFA is that this style of play is not brought to the fore. I've said before that if you want to get people to play the game realistically then you have to make the basic actions you have available intuitive and realistic, rather than hiding them away behind cluttered button combos and completely unmentioned mini-tilts. As LTFC said, to make the game play realistically you have to put so much in (and you have to either play offline where the game is balanced asymmetrically by the CPU's ESP and phenomenal understanding of what it can do, or play online against identically minded people but still face very different defending standards), whereas playing it in an arcade style is effortless and makes the game play out completely differently.

Why mini tilt when you can just spam passes and see what happens? Why do a shoulder drop when a triple rabona is only a tiny bit harder? Why even look at the formations and tactics screens when it is easier to rage quit? The whole game is littered with these things, where the simulation elements of the game's DNA is a very recessive gene, rather than being embraced and being made accessible for the general public.

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TL;DR - STOP!
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So what I'm asking (and I'm asking everyone here) is, let's pretend that we already know the momentum discrepancies (the inconsistencies, not the lack of twisted ankle animation or perfect footplanting) Max highlighted were completely ironed out.

- How would you go about making sure that the sort of gameplay LTFC and Ibra and Nerf talk about, is accessible to a much larger part of the community and is successful online?
- How do you make it something that even the assisted crowd have to subconsciously deal with, but which also makes the dribbling game more open, expressive and enjoyable?
- How do you get it to fit in with Gary's negative opinion of feathering the stick?
- Other stuff?

The sort of things I want people to think about includes

- the CPU ESP
- how/if you'd change the momentum impact when jogging with the ball, sprinting with the ball
- how/if you'd change the speed and acceleration when jogging the ball, sprinting with the ball
- how/if you'd change the momentum and ball distance when jog-turning 0-45 degrees / 45-90 degrees / 90+ degrees
- Any changes you'd make to the controls
- Any changes you'd make to pressure effectiveness
- how any momentum changes would impact passing (manual passing would be impacted by momentum, for example)


I know that's an absolute fuckton of stuff right there but I do want to go direct to Gary P with something and I doubt I'd get much about this from the EA forums without the previous few pages of back-and-forth we've had here.
 
As I mainly play off-line against the CPU, my main issues and concerns lay here.
The AI ESP, along with almost perfect organisation, insane pressure and total disregard of stamina coupled with the ability to seemingly make up ground on any player with any player at times by the CPU almost instantly remove any semblance of playing against actual individuals.

I'd like to see human like response times and limits applied to the AI, this has to be the starting point for anything the CPU does, at the moment you get the sense your playing in the Matrix at times and the AI carries out these little bends of physics to balance the game or alter outcomes...
 
Can anyone explain what the intention of the pressure buttons were?

The only 'benefit' of them, that I can think of, is to make sure your player is heading in the right direction, disregarding player selection (for example when I'm running in one direction with a player behind the ball-possesor and want to switch to the defender in front of him, I can use the pressure button to make him head towards the man with the ball, without having to adjust my stick direction immediately after switching. However if the defender I'm switching to is too close to the man with the ball, it can easily end in my player running past him).
 
lancers said:
LTFC have you tried 2010 World Cup lately? That game is a bit more challenging I think.
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I find the WC game easier in terms of attacking the AI, but more difficult to defend against. I'm not sure why, but the AI in the WC game to me seems more experimental, it tries a wider variety of attacking moves. I think maybe the formation and team settings of the AI is more geared towards going out and winning the game in the WC version.

In reply to romagnoli, I totally see where you're coming from. I used to get totally wound up by the AI 'esp'. I really think this happens partly because a stronger, faster player movement becomes really apparent to the AI, and gives it the green light to barge in at 100 miles an hour. Maybe it can judge the direction you're going in better, but the 'esp' issue is a major flaw that needs addressing. So far though, on World Class level, the minute use of the direction stick seems to drastically alleviate that.

As for your question, I'm not the greatest player so I use semi assisted on everything apart from through pass, which I use manual. I use the manual through pass for those more delicate passes etc rather than actually playing through balls! I don't know what the aggression of the teams I played was, but most were middling top division teams (Parma, Malaga, Olympiakos etc). These are usually however the teams I struggle against the most - teams set out not to lose, that often play with high aggression. I've not seen the aggression at all playing in the way I've changed to, but to experiment I then started playing like I used to and yep, stab tackles were 100% perfect, I was being knocked over etc. Bring the pace back down, and the same sets of AI players started backing off. Often, when tackled but travelling slowly, I managed to win free kicks too.

I totally agree that this way of playing is inaccessible online. Too many players will abuse it because, playing at a near walking pace when close to opponenets will result in double presses and insane stab tackles etc that would override it. The reason I've found it works in offline modes is because the AI probably doesn't realise what you're going to do because there's no clear 'pathway' set out to it when you're moving, and eases up accordingly. You can still quickly flip left, right wherever, when slowly keeping control. If you sprint, or increase dribble speed, then there an ever decreasing set of variable directions you can go, and the AI acts. You knock the ball on further, which I think is the biggest green light for the AI to challenge. Though you're still in possession using the stick hard to one direction, your touches are heavier and maybe the AI reads this as being a loose ball there to be won. That seems to play out for me now, and kinda makes sense that the developers might make it this way.

I think the slow dribbling is deliberate by EA, it's why they introduced analogue sprint and why you can move in varying degrees of speed to begin with. I'd just never bothered using it before. One thing I have REALLY noticed is how the 'Personality Plus', which for months I'd thought was frankly a load of old bollocks, really seems pronounced now. The temptation, ingrained from almost every game before it, for me was to use speed to get away from a player challenging you. But the slower dribble, when close to an opponent, seems to allow the game to read the player attributes and perform successful dribbling where it never would when sprinting. That probably sounds like a load of crap, but the Messi goal video above is a great example. If moving quickly, the AI would kick in and make the keeper aggressively take the ball 100% of the time. But by moving slower, Messi on this occasion took it past the keeper and 'auto' jumped over the keeper's dive. The keeper actually misses the ball, which never happens when moving quickly.

Though that sounds a bit of a leap in terms of praising the personality plus, I see this in other instances now. When I got the hang of travelling at slower pace, against the ingrained impulse to travel quicker to evade the defender, you have that split second longer to move your body position, and the ball, away from tackles. Often, the game now seems to reward this by opening up a bit of space, as the Alves video above shows.

I noticed that by lightly jogging with the ball next to an AI defender, the game actually made my player automatically perform counteracting jostles himself, and the success of this depended on who was on the ball. Drogba can do this for ages, others, like Iniesta, can ride say one challenge then use close control to turn away and shield. This is the game making your players do this rather than being knocked off it by some crazed tackle, as happens if you move quicker. I think the game sees you're more balanced, in control, so doesn't fly into you.

To to answer your question, higher presssure depending on the team does make it more difficult but not impossible. I'll post a few vids later of one really tough match that started out like the old stab tackle/barging fest, but somehow ended with my players able to pull off some decent dribbling against the AI.

But yeah you're totally right, it's bizarre that playing in the 'FIFA10 style' against other human opponents completely overrides any improvements EA have made to the game. It's just lucky that the AI seems to respond at least to playing in the manner that I think EA had in mind. But where the game is broken, is that if you choose to play like FIFA's of old with pressure, sprint, even more pressure, then that's where the physics fall down, as mfmax has shown us.

I've rambled on for far too long now, but I think your questions are really interesting ones. Off the top of my head, the only way I can see EA forcing people to play the game in the way it needs to be to maximise it's potential, is to remove the pressure buttons altogether, radically alter the way stamina has an affect, which would force people to selectively sprint, and then to make it impossible to turn at such sharp angles when travelling fast. At least that would stop people from using just speed, and prevent the AI from being able to perform those bizarre turns against the laws of gravity.

It seems you can make this happen by playing in a certain way, I think the way EA may have designed the game to be played, but if you don't then the AI will punish you in a totally unrealistic way.
 
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Northzzz said:
True, but i still think Fifa models itself on the English football in that it's strength and speed that matters more than technical stuff. I can't really enjoy playing with Spanish teams when i know how anti-physical the league is and how its so far from what FIFA is like. PES is anti-physicality compared to FIFA and hence i can enjoy playing with Spanish teams much more than English ones.
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Very true. This point was made by Adam on the wenb podcast a while back, about how Fifa has almost been built as a Premier League simulator. High-pressure, high-tempo football with an over-emphasis on physicality and hustle and bustle rather than technical ability and tactical play. If all you're interested in is English football then this is all well and good, but playing a Serie A or La Liga match feels nothing like the real thing.

PES, whether it be by design or inadvertently, does a better job or recreating continental football. Slower-paced, technical and tactical.
 
Jamezinho said:
Very true. This point was made by Adam on the wenb podcast a while back, about how Fifa has almost been built as a Premier League simulator. High-pressure, high-tempo football with an over-emphasis on physicality and hustle and bustle rather than technical ability and tactical play. If all you're interested in is English football then this is all well and good, but playing a Serie A or La Liga match feels nothing like the real thing.

PES, whether it be by design or inadvertently, does a better job or recreating continental football. Slower-paced, technical and tactical.
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I'd beg to differ of course with the both of you. There's plenty of room to stroke it around and play a methodical build up, and play tactics. it doesn't have to be end to end English football though it can be. Most of the people here have been complaining about defenses sitting back and cloggin up the field so I fail to see how these assertions correspond to other people expereinces. This, I say even at the default setting, now if you change the custom settings even further to suite each league and team it becomes more prevelant. It may be closer to English football than PES, I guess that is debatable, but on my part I would have to say that saying FIfa is all hustle and bustle is not true, nor is saying PES is more technical and tactical.
 
I'd have to agree, which I never thought I'd hear myself say a week ago. I played with River Plate against Boca last night and it was slow, methodical, something that seemed impossible to do before I started playing the game differently.
 
Nick Cave said:
As I mainly play off-line against the CPU, my main issues and concerns lay here.
The AI ESP, along with almost perfect organisation, insane pressure and total disregard of stamina coupled with the ability to seemingly make up ground on any player with any player at times by the CPU almost instantly remove any semblance of playing against actual individuals.

I'd like to see human like response times and limits applied to the AI, this has to be the starting point for anything the CPU does, at the moment you get the sense your playing in the Matrix at times and the AI carries out these little bends of physics to balance the game or alter outcomes...
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Couldn't agree more. I've already expressed some reasons for why playing against the AI defense can be more frustrating than fun - e.g. instantaneous AI response times coupled with unnatural player movements - but I think Nick has touched on the heart of the problem: playing against the AI should feel like an organic experience; the goal should be to make the experience as close to what it's like to play against another human. I like the Matrix metaphor - it really does feel at times like your playing against 11 Agent Smiths!

At least that's the case when the AI is playing defense. Maybe it's me but the offensive AI seems to be dumber than before. Most importantly, the AI does not seem programmed to value possession - on a team level and on an individual level.

On a team level this is seen in the style of play that the AI uses to attempt to "break you down," though using that phrase may be too generous. Part of that has to do with the AI's choice in passes, but also in player movement off the ball.

On the individual level the AI is guilty of allowing itself to be dispossed in areas and situations that in real life a player would be desperate to either hold on to the ball, get rid of it quicker, or clear his lines. Examples of this include the clips posted of the AI loosing possession cheaply upon kickoff or after a goal kick, or in LTFC's clip of Messi stealing the ball from defenders. The most egregious cases are when your defenders are yards away but the CPU dribbles right into you. Like I and others have said before, part of the issue is how easy defending has become in general because of the auto-tackles, jockey being over-powered, etc., but still the AI should be much better programmed to either get rid of the ball, attempt a move, or shield the ball. The case is that too often the AI is careless in possession.

By the way, could someone please tell the devs that if they insist on keeping the auto-tackle feature then they better make it a god damn option we can turn off. Some of us prefer defending to be a challenge.

romagnoli said:
- How would you go about making sure that the sort of gameplay LTFC and Ibra and Nerf talk about, is accessible to a much larger part of the community and is successful online?
- How do you make it something that even the assisted crowd have to subconsciously deal with, but which also makes the dribbling game more open, expressive and enjoyable?
- How do you get it to fit in with Gary's negative opinion of feathering the stick?
- Other stuff?

The sort of things I want people to think about includes

- the CPU ESP
- how/if you'd change the momentum impact when jogging with the ball, sprinting with the ball
- how/if you'd change the speed and acceleration when jogging the ball, sprinting with the ball
- how/if you'd change the momentum and ball distance when jog-turning 0-45 degrees / 45-90 degrees / 90+ degrees
- Any changes you'd make to the controls
- Any changes you'd make to pressure effectiveness
- how any momentum changes would impact passing (manual passing would be impacted by momentum, for example)


I know that's an absolute fuckton of stuff right there but I do want to go direct to Gary P with something and I doubt I'd get much about this from the EA forums without the previous few pages of back-and-forth we've had here.
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I might have missed a couple posts but when you say, "the sort of gameplay LTFC and Ibra and Nerf talk about," I'm not sure what exactly you mean. Just a more methodical, intelligent, slower gameplay, that emphasizes a better balance between the physical side of the game and the skill and creativity - and dare i say art - that is also part of the game? If you could better phrase the problem, or the goal, that might help.

But if I pretend to know what you're asking, a couple thoughts:

First, often times the answer is in the question, like here:

Why mini tilt when you can just spam passes and see what happens? Why do a shoulder drop when a triple rabona is only a tiny bit harder? Why even look at the formations and tactics screens when it is easier to rage quit?
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Pro Passing is a joke - the bouncy passes are retarded while the emphasis should not be on passing speed error alone but directional error as well, if not more so.

Increase the joy that comes from regular dribbling relative the trick stick. (Again, a huge part of this involves properly implementing momentum so that you don't feel the actual need to use an elaborate feint to beat a man.)

When it comes to formations and tactics, first make them matter and show people how they might influence or even change a match's outcome, and second make them more accessible, intuitive, quicker to use, and overall user friendly.

The problem as I see it, however, is that while that all may sound logical, all of the suggested outcomes very well may deviate from EA's vision of what a football game should be. Why bother with these things if in the end, the goal is to create a game that is a non-stop adrenaline rush that anyone and their grandmother can grab a controller and be competitive within seconds?

When it comes to dribbling, and the discussion I *think* you're having with LTFC, I'm not sure we're on the same page Rom, as I remember a couple months ago, over on the other side of the forums, you disagreeing with my more positive assessment of FIFA's dribbling. I could be wrong, or it may be that our differences are minimal. In any case, while at first I was quite let down (again) by dribbling in FIFA 11, after a while I did come to appreciate the use of analog sprint and close dribble to a degree that I hadn't enjoyed dribbling in FIFA previously. I'm not saying it's fantastic but I do believe the addition of analog sprint, the improvements to close dribbling, and the adjustment of the skilled dribble button (LT+RT), are solid improvements.

That said, while all of the moves and style of play illustrated in LTFC's clips are obviously possible in FIFA 11, at times they can feel like the exception to the rule - examples of a nice series of dribbles or shielding tend to be outnumbered by the cases of overly physical play, defenders bum-rushing the ball rather than closing down, players too easily being disposed, etc. Again the answer is in the question: why bother slowing play down, seek to break down a defense intelligently, or rely on skillful dribbling when so often a faster, more direct, Route 1 style strategy is safer and more effective?

So my answer to this:

How do you make it something that even the assisted crowd have to subconsciously deal with, but which also makes the dribbling game more open, expressive and enjoyable?
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Is to make the opposite a less effective way to play. Just like how they nerfed sprint speed (though by too much) to deal with sprint whores, the devs should nerf the elements that make FIFA such a brutal, rapid, and unskillful game at times (all the time?). Sadly, that may require making FIFA a more challenging game, which it seems EA are hesitant to do.

Conversely, if you want FIFA to be more "open, expressive, and enjoyable" then you need to make that side of the game more effective, so that more players feel the incentive to play that way and it's not just us hardcore players trying to force it. There shouldn't be anything about it that feels forced to begin with, it should be natural, which it is not currently in FIFA. Sorry to beat the dead horse but part of the solution is nerfing defense and off the ball player movement. The devs were right to address the over-effectiveness of sprinting (but again, they over-shot) and now they need to do the same with jockeying, auto-tackling (get rid of it I say), the collision system, and other elements of defending that unbalance gameplay. Just by toning down the defensive and physical side of the game will by default allow for the other aspects of the game to be more easily and effectively expressed.

One idea I'd like to see implemented on the offensive side of the game is, while FIFA 11 saw the introduction of several knew defensive animations (tackles, collisions, jostling), FIFA 12 needs some new dribbling animations. Some of these could be in the form of more shielding animations, as I think we can all agree that dribblers need more help protecting the ball. There also should be a number of dribbling animations for close-quarters situations to help in those tight situations, and these could all be tied to using the close dribble button. I think a particulary nice idea would be to link these animations with a players skill level, so while you'll never see certain (or any?) auto-dribble animations with John Terry, when using Messi in close situations and while holding the controlled dribble button you'll almost be guaranteed to see something special. Now if something like this were to be implemented it would be critical for EA to not go overboard, or else it would feel arcadey and silly - I'm talking about very subtle movements that are intended to help in the stickiest of situations and counter-act the overly physical, tackle-heavy, and fast-paced style of play in FIFA.

When it comes to the momentum of players while dribbling, to be perfectly honest I have no major gripes with it. I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement, just that I don't think it unbalances the game in ways that other aspects do. I'm sure it's clear by now that off-the-ball player movement has most of my attention when it comes to player physics. What i will say is that dribbling does feel a little "loose" to me, though I have no real suggestions for what needs to happen to "tighten" it.

As for changes to controls, my biggest wish has to do with manual passing: I want one pass for long ground passes and the other designed specifically with shorter passes in mind. There is no need for a designated "through" pass with manual controls like there is with assisted. Overall I think FIFA's control scheme is excellent though and i wish PES's was half as intuitive. I wish pulling off tricks was easier (I'm not saying make tricks more effective in gameplay, just easier to pull off with the controls), but maybe i just suck at it. (I also think it's retarded that only certain players can attempt tricks - effectiveness and success likelihood should be tied to ratings and the situation, not whether a player can even attempt it!)

Pressure effectiveness certainly falls under my idea of toning-down the defensive side of the game. Personally, I'd like to see the pressure button be a "tackle" button - you press it and your defender initiates a standing tackle (no two footed standing tackles please); I'd like to see the teammate press button do only that, press, which means it's less a teammate tackle (or teammate go get the ball for me) button and more a closing down only feature; and finally, I'd like to see jockey toned-down so that movement isn't so free and quick, and I'd really like it if you actually had to time a tackle rather than just hold down jockey and be near the ball-possessor to steal the ball. Oh, and no more just running into players to gain possession - this isn't some Greek naval battle (initiate ramming speed!).

I don't really know what you mean by momentum influencing passing... but I think I've said my share.
 
Okay, well all I can say is that what I've explained really transformed the game for me. These four uploads show more examples of what I mean. After this I'll give the whole dribble speed thing a rest! ;)

The first video shows Walcott, who beats a player with the right stick knock on, then has space to flat out sprint. Once he gets to the defender, I stop sprinting entirely and almost totally lay off the direction stick, and with a slight 'left' and 'up' movement of the stick, Walcott's added control on the ball allows him to skip past the defender until he's blocked by a covering player. At a faster speed, I was never ever able to pull this kind move;

YouTube - IMG 0394 1

Second video, shows how Walcott's slower speed allows him more body strength when certainly before he'd always be knocked over. He rides the robust challenge and carries on down the line;

YouTube - IMG 0395

This third video shows Iniesta being able to skip around the defender, who is pressuring and leading in with his arm, but he doesn't make that vital challenge that would usually leave Iniesta on his ass. Instead, I'm the one getting to perform some fun but unrealistic physics for a change;

YouTube - IMG 0401

This final one, again with Iniesta, shows the same principle. I dribble in a circle, slower, taking more touches of the ball and keeping his body between the ball and the AI defender, and it seems to totally outfox the AI. He shakes the guy off, plays a one two, and nearly scores. Even when collecting the return pass, Iniesta would normally be knocked off the ball, but because I'm not fully tilting the direction stick and combine it with LT to control the ball, even he manages to use his upper body strength momentarily to hold off the defender before shooting;

YouTube - IMG 0403

That's the last I'll bleat on about slower dribbling, all I can say is that these examples are on World Class against the kind of middle of the road AI opponents who would normally sit with banks of deep defenders, and then perform turbo charged triple pressing all over the pitch, and leave you flat out on the floor with a rugby tackle.

While moving the player in more subtle ways doesn't alleviate a lot of the pressing all of the time, it definitely has an effect with regards to the AI's willingness to throw itself into a challenge, and seems to drastically even up physical challenges that are made. The slower pace seems to allow your team mates more time to get into good positions, and space seems to open up in advanced areas. You don't need to play the entire game at a snail's pace, but when the AI is lining up in front of you waiting for you to show them the ball, a more delicate approach to player movement works wonders, and all but removes, at least for me, the annoying game I played before where people would run into each other, stab tackle constantly, and dribbling was almost impossible.

That's the last I'll say on it now, I've rammed the point home and don't wanna piss anyone off! :)
 
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LTFC said:
Okay, well all I can say is that what I've explained really transformed the game for me. These four uploads show more examples of what I mean. After this I'll give the whole dribble speed thing a rest! ;)

...

That's the last I'll bleat on about slower dribbling, all I can say is that these examples are on World Class against the kind of middle of the road AI opponents who would normally sit with banks of deep defenders, and then perform turbo charged triple pressing all over the pitch, and leave you flat out on the floor with a rugby tackle.

While moving the player in more subtle ways doesn't alleviate a lot of the pressing all of the time, it definitely has an effect with regards to the AI's willingness to throw itself into a challenge, and seems to drastically even up physical challenges that are made. The slower pace seems to allow your team mates more time to get into good positions, and space seems to open up in advanced areas. You don't need to play the entire game at a snail's pace, but when the AI is lining up in front of you waiting for you to show them the ball, a more delicate approach to player movement works wonders, and all but removes, at least for me, the annoying game I played before where people would run into each other, stab tackle constantly, and dribbling was almost impossible.

That's the last I'll say on it now, I've rammed the point home and don't wanna piss anyone off! :)
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Agree. This also works on Legendary difficulty just fine. I think if you are sprint dribbling around the pitch, then the CPU defenders will sprint around after you... a la "Premier League" football. If you play it slow, then the CPU defenders will back off as well... a la "La Liga".

Also in response to the resurgence of complaints of "AI ESP", "perfect AI defense organization", "CPU defenders catching up to super fast players", "no stamina effect", etc. ... stop being ridiculous. There are plenty of actual issues with FIFA 11, these are none of them. The AI defense is not that good, certainly doesn't have ESP, perfect organization, nor do its slow defenders catch up to you fast attackers on breakaways. Also, stamina effects both sides equally and it's extremely obvious late in games for both sides.

If you want to complain about the carelessness with the ball or lack of creativity for the CPU attacking AI, or the abuse of the homing missile tackles and pressure in multi-player games, have at it. Even mfmaxpower has a point (although totally overblown in my opinion) that the animations can be unrealistic and wonky at times. But let's stop complaining about things that don't exist and move on to actual useful criticism.
 
On the contrary. If it's working for you then do keep talking about it.

How does moving the ball more subtly with the left stick feel for you as a control method? Do you think noons wouldbe able to do it? Or do you think it should be made easier to control - shouldn't L2+LS be having the same impact? Isn't that what it's for?? Or do you think it is sufficiently different to be mapped to, say, L1+LS?

Do you think moving with the left stick at full tilt should take slower to accelerate if you take a touch in a non-ideal direction (eg taking a pass in a direction against your momentum)?

Edit: and feel free to complain about the CPU's reaction times everyone. It bloody is happening!
 
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Great vids of dribbling skills LTFC. Those are perfect examples of some of the newer improvements to FIFA that I have enjoyed messing around with. IMO the new analog sprint feature has been a massive addition, although i do at times wish the range in speed was greater.

When it comes to subtle touches on the control sticks for dribbling, something I've found is that I am a better at dribbling on my PS3 than the 360 (I have the game for both and have played each about equally), and I think it has to do with the sticks. Not sure if it means anything but I swear I am better at more subtle dribbling movements on the PS3. On the other hand I seem to be a better manual passer on the 360. Go figure.

Now LTFC, I challenge you to post similar vids using Championship or lower quality players. An issue I've had with my CMs is that I find it frustrating how lesser quality players have significantly less offensive skills and yet defenders seem to not see much of a decline in their tackling and defensive skills. No surprise I can't do the same things with my Bundasliga 2 side as I can with Messi and Walcott, but it does unbalance the game I feel.

And yeah, CPU reaction time definitely needs looking into. As someone else said, FIFA 11 is one of the lowest scoring FIFAs in recent memory and that is in no small part due to the way the defensive AI is programmed.
 
romagnoli said:
On the contrary. If it's working for you then do keep talking about it.

How does moving the ball more subtly with the left stick feel for you as a control method? Do you think noons wouldbe able to do it? Or do you think it should be made easier to control - shouldn't L2+LS be having the same impact? Isn't that what it's for?? Or do you think it is sufficiently different to be mapped to, say, L1+LS?

Do you think moving with the left stick at full tilt should take slower to accelerate if you take a touch in a non-ideal direction (eg taking a pass in a direction against your momentum)?

Edit: and feel free to complain about the CPU's reaction times everyone. It bloody is happening!
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You'd think that using the skill dribble (LT+RT, or L2+R2 on PS3) would be able to do this, but personally I barely ever use it. I may give it a go now that I'm getting the hang of this slower dribbling malarkey. I often find though that the skill dribble brings out a bizarre sideways slide motion and often drift more than I'd want it to, and give the ball away.

For me, moving the left stick subtly feels fine, it's just a case of getting a feel for it, as 99.9% of all games don't really require tiny stick movements. I don't see why anyone can't do it, I'm certainly not great at FIFA at all, and the dribbles posted above were more a case of avoiding the player nearest to me. Somehow space often opens up almost as if the game's rewarding you for using the full range of controls!

I had a strange experience playing tonight, it all seemed like I was maybe talking rubbish at first, I randomly played MIlan Vs West Brom, so expected to easily beat them, but like I said before, the 'easier' fixtures often become the toughest. I lost 0-1, barely mustered a shot at goal, dribbles weren't working, and West Brom closed down and bullied me physically all over the pitch. So I replayed the match, and second time around, with the same teams, difficulty, everything, I hammered them in all but score. I won 2-0, but should have had a ton of goals. Dribbling seemed to work again too. Ibrahomvic scored with a kind of sideways dribble between two players, then cut in and slotted it over the keeper, he must have beat 3 players or so.

I think that the game kind of punishes the player for taking a pass in a certain direction at full tilt of the stick. The AI certainly seems to step into the tackle quicker, as you take a heavier first touch that invites the AI to take the (sort of) loose ball. I think adding the need for longer acceleration at full dribbling speed wouldn't hellp matters too much because with the right player, a subtle tilt on the direction stick, then, say diverting yourself out of trouble and away from the defender, can open up space where you can burst into. It feels really realistic, so ideally I'd like to keep it as it is. Like I said, if you use the stick at full speed when controlling the ball, it really does seem to punish you by almost acting like some kind of green light for the AI to charge you down. Subtle movements and use of the L2 (LT) button seem to work a treat.

I hope this persists, the bad match against West Brom was the first time I struggled like games of old since I started experimenting with the game. Even then, at least I followed it up against the same team and it all went right again, the AI seemed to really struggle to cope with my players travelling at slower speeds.

Taking a pass at only a slight tilt of the stick is also awesome because it seems to make the first touch closer, and if you combine it with L2 (LT) then your first touch can be awesome. Combine this with holding L2 and the right stick to perform a drag back etc, plus travelling slowly, and you can pull of some really tricky forward moves where otherwise you just wouldn't have the space in between your larger touches of the ball and AI closing you down.


mfmaxpower said:
Great vids of dribbling skills LTFC. Those are perfect examples of some of the newer improvements to FIFA that I have enjoyed messing around with. IMO the new analog sprint feature has been a massive addition, although i do at times wish the range in speed was greater.

When it comes to subtle touches on the control sticks for dribbling, something I've found is that I am a better at dribbling on my PS3 than the 360 (I have the game for both and have played each about equally), and I think it has to do with the sticks. Not sure if it means anything but I swear I am better at more subtle dribbling movements on the PS3. On the other hand I seem to be a better manual passer on the 360. Go figure.

Now LTFC, I challenge you to post similar vids using Championship or lower quality players. An issue I've had with my CMs is that I find it frustrating how lesser quality players have significantly less offensive skills and yet defenders seem to not see much of a decline in their tackling and defensive skills. No surprise I can't do the same things with my Bundasliga 2 side as I can with Messi and Walcott, but it does unbalance the game I feel.

And yeah, CPU reaction time definitely needs looking into. As someone else said, FIFA 11 is one of the lowest scoring FIFAs in recent memory and that is in no small part due to the way the defensive AI is programmed.
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I too find the sticks on both consoles to feel different, just to be completely the opposite prefer the xbox controller in the case of FIFA. Horses for courses I guess.....


Ha! That's a good challenge, I'll see if I can give that a go in the next few days, with a Championship side. I'm not sure how successful the dribbling will be, as so far the most extreme dribbling has been with top players, but I hope that it'll still allow me more time to pick out passes. I'd prefer it in many ways that you can't do similar dribbling with lesser players, makes the better ones stand out and more exciting to use. When playing as Arsenal yesterday, I noticed that stronger players could dribble too, simply by using strength. They'd just ride the challenges. Diaby and Song seemed particularly good at this, but you could only really be effective driving forwards, not jinking left and right for example. Perhaps stronger Championship players will be able to do this? Either way, the difference between skilled dribblers and powerful players feels really different, and is something you simply don't notice when controlling everyone at full speed.

I hope the balance between attackers and defenders evens out a little, but I'll have to wait and see. Naturally a Championship attacker won't have the range of movement etc as a better player, but similarly I kind of anticipate the AI defence, despite being from a Championship team also, might feel like it's a top premier league defence. I hope not. With any luck I won't see too much difference in attacking because both teams would, and should, be balanced in terms of attacking and defending. The real difference should lie with trying to use a Reading player for example to dribble past Rio Ferdinand....
 
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I've been playing around with the feathering of the stick and am honestly not noticing a difference compared to using L2 and full tilt (not L2+R2 LTFC, L2+Left Stick), certainly not in terms of animations (except you can't do the dragback with just feathering). I've not been using Barca though, I've been using Utd so I have far fewer opportunities to really try the thing out with a dribbling genius. I'm probably still playing the wrong sorts of teams too - but in terms of animations and the general movement of the player slight tilts of the left stick is the same as the close control button, possibly with some slight quirks if the game sees a sideways press as being the start of a full tilt (which is why I think feathering backwards doesn't do the dragback).


Max and LTFC, cheers for answering my questions. Max, re: how momentum affects passing - it makes it harder to recover a wayward pass if your player has greater momentum; manual passing would be affected by this. On the other hand, it should make defences slightly less capable of snapping up loose passes and it should make a pass directly behind a defender's run more likely to get past, so it's swings and roundabouts.

LTFC - they introduced analog sprinting fairly late actually. I asked for it via PM and Gary said they'd talked about it a couple of weeks beforehand. It wasn't in the E3 build at all. So I doubt they designed the game around it... hopefully they will do more with it this year now that it's there from the start and they've had time to think about how to make it more prominent.

It's hard to know exactly how to change the game to open up this side of things without the ability to actually tweak a copy of the game and see what happens after you do A, B and C - especially if A, B or C would have a drastic effect in their own right. The two things the game would benefit from most to help people improve it over the years are sliders and very easy to use formations/tactics screens. The former would create a whole community of its own dedicated to getting the gameplay optimised for realism/fun/particular footballing cultures, while the latter would make fixing the online a lot easier by showing exactly where the strengths and weaknesses are in the game. You can infer useful info from the formations you see online now, but the more active people are in setting such formations up and the more opportunity people have to see how other people setup and evolve their own game to try and trump them, the better.
 
LTFC said:
I'd have to agree, which I never thought I'd hear myself say a week ago. I played with River Plate against Boca last night and it was slow, methodical, something that seemed impossible to do before I started playing the game differently.
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I like the game a lot more on full manual. I turned it down to Semi-Pro initially now on to Pro which is probably hard enough for me. Give the manual a try. In some ways it is harder but once you get the hang of it the lead passes play nice.
 
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