Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

I have been playing PES for the last few days.

After playing it for a while PES to me is more arcadey. I am comparing it to Fifa manual.

Passing is good on Pes, like a semi manual on fifa. Shooting is done well on Pes but I don't think it is necessarily realistic. It is definately more fun, but fifa's physics are much better.

Pes is let down by through balls, for some reason the defence has a split second of paralysis and makes it sooo easy to get your attacker on the end of the ball. Refs are shockingly bad.....really really bad. Its like it is random on when they call a foul. So many times I have done a great tackle and it is given a foul and alot of times tackles from behind unpunished. Also with the non existant advantage rule, or the fact nobody gets punished after an advantage is given is really bad.

Reaction times are bad too, so many times I have to press the button a million times before they clear it etc.

Momentum is overdone aswell, it is more noticeable, but I think it is overdone considerably on Pes. The same with pressure, when you shoot and a defender is on you, the ball does an unrealistic ballon like thing and is totally unreal imo. Fifa's ball physics etc are much better, but scoring on PES is still better, I don't know how, but it is.

I still feel more restricted with Pes than I do with manual fifa.

But saying all of that PES is alot of fun and I can't stop playing it, but it is no way as amazing as everybody seems to be hinting at. Alot of people are glossing over the cracks quite a bit with PES. Fifa does alot more right in my opinion, but PES does have that unique feel and is a bit more fun to play.

Apart from the great tactical side of PES, I do think PES is definately more pick up and play than manual fifa.

I am going to play PES for another couple of weeks and then go back to Fifa and see how I feel. That will be the ultimate test.

But I do think fifa/Pes comparisons in PES favour are over the top and at the moment a mixture of the two would be perfection :DD
 
Yeah, I don't agree at all that FIFA11 is more 'arcadey' than FIFA 09. The defensive AI has been tightened up, ping-pong passing is less easy and protecting the ball has become much more important. At least offline, anyway.
 
I think what makes it arcady to me is that you float around like you are skating except that you can turn any direction without any inertia and all that. This and the extremely good ball control (100 touches a second when jogging) is what I can think of that has been made worse since 08. I don't think 08 had the inertia thing going on, but because it was so sluggish it kind of replicated it in a bad way (better than nothing).

For me the acceleration must be there, standing still to front speed is just ½ second in FIFA - intertia/momentum when turning - much more difference in ball control, perfect ball control makes every player the same which is very arcady.

Anyway, it's obviously nothing most other people think here (or in the official forums I guess) so it's not very likely to be changed.
 
Pes Stamina is shocking aswell. Which is suprising, nearly every player runs down considerably at the end of the match, even if I haven't used them much. Not saying it is much much better on Fifa, but its something Fifa gets slated for, but Pes no mention really.

I don't think Fifa is much better than Pes at all, but it needs to be recognised that both football games need ALOT of work. Closing your eyes to PES fallbacks will just mean that PES progression will be stifled aswell.

PES makes inertia, momentum etc more noticeable, but that doesn't necessarily make it more realistic imo which alot of people seem to be thinking?

I probably overall think both games have great drawbacks that they need to iron out big time and giving and taking all the bits from both they are at the same level in acceptability imo. Both need so much done to them.

(Just to note this post isn't aimed at anyone, just what I have noticed looking in different threads etc)

Just as a closing note though, I do think PES has the best potential to meet what we all need in a football game. Fifa will not progress like we want it to unfortunately which is a great waste and is why I am so angry with Fifa and the team behind it at the moment. Fifa has more potential if they had a better team behind them, but with the drive so much about money, I can't see them doing much better than they have, there is no drive there to improve greatly.

If PES irons out the refs and advantage and a few other things, then it would be much much better.

Another note why I love PES at the moment the replays and highlights are brilliant. They jsut need an option that Fifa has where you can save the individual highlights after the match.
 
I don't care if PES makes something better or not, I just want FIFA to be better regardless of the state of PES. Just doing something a little better than the other game means nothing unless you're a fanboy.
 
The PES section of this and other forums certainly does complain a lot about the problems the game has, and that complaining doesn't carry over when the pro-PES posters talk about the game in FIFA threads. That's because for all the problems PES has, it still has noticably more football-centric intentions at its core. Something I've said a number of times is that PES is a lot happier to have individual areas of play exaggerated or less 1:1 with real life than FIFA, with the overall aim being that the resultant gameplay is more strategic and expressive. By contrast FIFA looks to mimic certain (often aesthetic) aspects of the game in a more literal sense, but waters them down in order to ensure accessibility, which inevitably removes depth that could have satisfied the hardcore or given them something to feel encouraged by. So the hardcore are more forgiving of PES because it has noble intentions towards them and the game; the same cannot rationally be said about FIFA.

It is interesting how many of the 'FIFA is hardcore' posters say they don't play online btw.
 
Gab_ said:
I don't care if PES makes something better or not, I just want FIFA to be better regardless of the state of PES. Just doing something a little better than the other game means nothing unless you're a fanboy.
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The most frustrating thing about Fifa is that all it needs is sliders for all of the major things. As the actual game mechanics are all there. Then I think it could be amazing. But Fifa will not do that, because then they wouldn't need to make another game. (if they do add sliders, they will be basic and a token gesture and will not make a great difference)

Fifa are so close to getting things right, but they seem to hold back and make it more accessable for the casual gamer which is why I think everybody is so pissed off with Fifa.

The best football game should be sought by everyone, I also don't understand why people get so heated when talking about the two games. All of which is subjective anyway.
 
Gab_ said:
I think what makes it arcady to me is that you float around like you are skating except that you can turn any direction without any inertia and all that. This and the extremely good ball control (100 touches a second when jogging) is what I can think of that has been made worse since 08. I don't think 08 had the inertia thing going on, but because it was so sluggish it kind of replicated it in a bad way (better than nothing).

For me the acceleration must be there, standing still to front speed is just ½ second in FIFA - intertia/momentum when turning - much more difference in ball control, perfect ball control makes every player the same which is very arcady.

Anyway, it's obviously nothing most other people think here (or in the official forums I guess) so it's not very likely to be changed.
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I think you're right, however while I can't speak for 08, I'd say that all of those things were no less true for 09 than they are for 11. So in that sense I don't believe it has become more arcadey. Perhaps it's more the case that it hasn't progressed as much as hoped for, rather than regressed.

For me, any idea that PES2011 is worth it for the sim/realism angle becomes eroded when I watch the players move off the ball. The lack of spatial awareness, the bunching, the ruler-straight forward sprints and an apparent mortal fear of the sidelines are what put me off the demo.

Both titles have such a long way to go and yet seem to move at glacial progression. It's true that a 12-month dev is an extremely short cycle, perhaps shorter than most realise, but when obvious flaws are being overlooked for pointless (but more marketable) new features, you have to think they could do better with both titles from a quality standpoint.
 
09 actually still had footplanting and momentum. They sharpened the reactions times up from 08, but if you timed you move correct you could fool a defender and get past him. On 11 it feels far more random, and less about football insight, and more about some random animation protocol being activated.

Had a perfect example today, was playing Arsenal and passed the ball from the wing along the ground into the run of Lucas who was sprinting into the box. The ball was running along the penaltyarea line. The moment Lucas got to the ball I did a knock-on to get past the more centrally positioned defender. So I could get to the byline and dink a cross in. The defender was facing away from goal, and about 1 or 2 strides ahead of Lucas towards the goal. Yet within the moment I knocked the ball on and continued Lucas' sprint the defender managed to turn, "accelerate" (which was actually not happening, he just went from 0 and facing the wrong direction to outsprinting Lucas in a milliseconf) and win the ball back.

Those moments, from what I remember, didn't happen in 09. That's why they have f#$ked the game up to such an extent. I they had kept "realistic" reactions it could probably be a decent game.
 
romagnoli said:
It is interesting how many of the 'FIFA is hardcore' posters say they don't play online btw.
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let me rephrase then, 'Fifa offline is hardcore'. Online is a different animal in a different habitat. Online response times alone are sufficeint to give advantage to the thoughtless over the thoughtfull.

This is quite off topic but...Konami may have good intentions but if there is no end-product that amounts to nothing - other than the sympathy that you mentioned. That's quite high praise by the way for a company that seemed to be living off of its reputation for so long (they all do it b/c it's business). If konami eventually make a better game than you can credit EA. What you said about Fifa is something I've always admitted to...the point is to discuss which end product is better regardless of the framework or motivating concepts behind it.
 
Right, I decided to completely abandon playing PES this year because there are a ridiculous amount of in-game bugs, so despite criticising FIFA decided to give it one last go, trying to completely alter the way I play the game.

One thing I did notice is that the AI pressure corresponds to how far you push the directional stick when you have the ball. Just tip the stick in one direction so you dribble at near walking pace and the AI eases off a tiny bit.

Nevertheless, I'm utter utter garbage at this game. It's so bizarre. I played FIFA09, 10 and World Cup on Legendary without too much problem, but tonight I selected River Plate, chose a random German team to play against somewhere in the 60's overall, and lost 4 straight games to them - all of them 0-1, all of them where they had ONE shot on goal and my keeper did nothing, and ALL of them where I had over 65% of the possession and around 10 shots on target.

How the hell do people break down defences in this game? This crappy team just set out a massively defensive 9 man wall in front of their penalty area, and can hound you down in packs of 3 or 4 players and not get dragged out of position because they play so deep.

Oh, and that stab tackle. That fucking stab tackle. What a complete joke. The AI can apparently use it repeatedly, often getting nowhere near the ball and tripping up my player, with no foul called. One guy did this on my defender, ran through on goal, despite me having two defenders leaning into him, but he was like some crazed version of the Hulk and just batted everyone off until he slotted in their only shot of the match again.

Seriously, how can the game be this hard compared to previous versions? I try playing a slower, methodical game, nothing works. I have all the game, barely create anything, then get hit with a breakaway goal, mostly a header from a cross that I don't seem able to get anywhere near, and I lose 0-1.

Currently I'm simply thinking that both football games this year are nothing short of piss poor.

One final additional question - is it even possible to dribble past a defender in this game without using a skill move? Whether you're changing direction, shielding the ball, whatever, that fucking stab tackle seems to override everything, and more often than not knocks your player clean onto the floor.
 
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ibra77 said:
let me rephrase then, 'Fifa offline is hardcore'. Online is a different animal in a different habitat. Online response times alone are sufficeint to give advantage to the thoughtless over the thoughtfull.

This is quite off topic but...Konami may have good intentions but if there is no end-product that amounts to nothing - other than the sympathy that you mentioned. That's quite high praise by the way for a company that seemed to be living off of its reputation for so long (they all do it b/c it's business). If konami eventually make a better game than you can credit EA. What you said about Fifa is something I've always admitted to...the point is to discuss which end product is better regardless of the framework or motivating concepts behind it.
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And for me it's PES. It's based on football for all its foibles (which don't add up to a number greater than FIFA) and it is an indicator that Konami are one, maybe two titles away from being back on top of their game. There is a clear upward curve and a renewed sense of identity, even if for all the changes they've made this year PES 2011 is fairly raw in certain areas. FIFA by contrast does not feel like it is taking steps in the right direction at all, and is in no way valuing the overall experience above making individual areas look cool.
 
romagnoli said:
And for me it's PES. It's based on football for all its foibles (which don't add up to a number greater than FIFA) and it is an indicator that Konami are one, maybe two titles away from being back on top of their game. There is a clear upward curve and a renewed sense of identity, even if for all the changes they've made this year PES 2011 is fairly raw in certain areas. FIFA by contrast does not feel like it is taking steps in the right direction at all, and is in no way valuing the overall experience above making individual areas look cool.
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I'm sure Konami is grateful to have such a loyal customer, but I don't share your optimism for the PES series. I agree that PES 2011 is on an upward curve compared to years previous, but that's not really saying much, the first years of "next gen" PES were just terrible. However, they are doing enough to keep EA on their toes, so they are at least motivating EA to invest in as much talent as possible to keep them on top.

But, I do have enough reverence for the quality of PES in years past to keep checking it out every release... and I'd happily switch back if they can push EA off the top of the hill.
 
EatonTJ said:
I'm sure Konami is grateful to have such a loyal customer, but I don't share your optimism for the PES series. I agree that PES 2011 is on an upward curve compared to years previous, but that's not really saying much, the first years of "next gen" PES were just terrible. However, they are doing enough to keep EA on their toes, so they are at least motivating EA to invest in as much talent as possible to keep them on top.

But, I do have enough reverence for the quality of PES in years past to keep checking it out every release... and I'd happily switch back if they can push EA off the top of the hill.
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I dont think there is any need for you to switch to PES if you enjoy and prefer Fifa, different strokes for different folks. If you dont ike or appreciate what PES 2011 offers, then in my opinion, you never will. I'm just glad there are two titles to cater for everyones tastes. :)
 
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LTFC said:
One final additional question - is it even possible to dribble past a defender in this game without using a skill move? .
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Yes it is possible and I haven't a clue how to use skill moves. I haven't incorparated that into my game at all besides the occasional step over. I don't even know how to use the basic rollover effectively.

Here are some of the most basic examples. I've been working at my runs from the back in my Liverpool CM as that seems to be a vital part of their game recently. You'll have to take my word that this is on legendary.

YouTube - runsfromtheback

I guess I could throw in an explanation as it might help.

The first video is Johnson making a menacing run into yards of space in front of him. The key is to first of all to not panic and get excited about space, something which I would have done early days with the game. You should be thinking right away what is the defence thinking? As I approach the 18 yard box Carroll makes the perfect run, the Defensive Mid, who has been instructed to deny the entry pass or long ball into Carrol (proof of AI tactical adjustment?)peels off of him and is now concerened not only about stopping my run but he is also cheating in that he will want to stop the pass to Carroll who is in a dangerous position, aware of this I simply cut in and evade him. It's not that easy to execute and you'll have to practice to get it right.

The next clip is just pure instinct, when I'm in the zone like that (which is rare) it's a riot.

And the last clip is my favorite, a classic Agger run feinting a pass or a run towards and open lane before gracefully cutting away. The key is to actually pretend you are going to pass it or make the dash into space and go through with the movements as realistically as possible.

Learning how to move a player is key, its almost like driving a manual stick shift, you can't afford to neglect anyone of the steering whee'l, clutch, gas, break, and gear shift. You have to learn to use them coherently.
 
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LTFC said:
Right, I decided to completely abandon playing PES this year because there are a ridiculous amount of in-game bugs, so despite criticising FIFA decided to give it one last go, trying to completely alter the way I play the game.

One thing I did notice is that the AI pressure corresponds to how far you push the directional stick when you have the ball. Just tip the stick in one direction so you dribble at near walking pace and the AI eases off a tiny bit.

Nevertheless, I'm utter utter garbage at this game. It's so bizarre. I played FIFA09, 10 and World Cup on Legendary without too much problem, but tonight I selected River Plate, chose a random German team to play against somewhere in the 60's overall, and lost 4 straight games to them - all of them 0-1, all of them where they had ONE shot on goal and my keeper did nothing, and ALL of them where I had over 65% of the possession and around 10 shots on target.

How the hell do people break down defences in this game? This crappy team just set out a massively defensive 9 man wall in front of their penalty area, and can hound you down in packs of 3 or 4 players and not get dragged out of position because they play so deep.

Oh, and that stab tackle. That fucking stab tackle. What a complete joke. The AI can apparently use it repeatedly, often getting nowhere near the ball and tripping up my player, with no foul called. One guy did this on my defender, ran through on goal, despite me having two defenders leaning into him, but he was like some crazed version of the Hulk and just batted everyone off until he slotted in their only shot of the match again.

Seriously, how can the game be this hard compared to previous versions? I try playing a slower, methodical game, nothing works. I have all the game, barely create anything, then get hit with a breakaway goal, mostly a header from a cross that I don't seem able to get anywhere near, and I lose 0-1.

Currently I'm simply thinking that both football games this year are nothing short of piss poor.

One final additional question - is it even possible to dribble past a defender in this game without using a skill move? Whether you're changing direction, shielding the ball, whatever, that fucking stab tackle seems to override everything, and more often than not knocks your player clean onto the floor.
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First, you should enjoy the challenge. For me, this is the rare sports game that puts up a fight (without being cheap IMO), and that's something to cherish. If you typically master sports games on the hardest settings I'm sure you'll eventually get around to at least being very good at this one. My recommendation for anyone wanting to get better against the CPU is to fire up a lower league manager mode game and then have at it. Having only a few good players and limited resources really forces you to be creative with your tactics and focus your offense around a few key players... which in turn will help you figure out how to break down the CPU defense.

That's my favorite part of playing any sports game, improving through trial and error. I envy your position.

As far as the stab tackle from the CPU, I've never had much frustration with it. Most of my turnovers of possession occur when I make a bad pass, I usually don't dwell on the ball too often. I don't try to dribble through the midfield much at all, I save all my solo runs for the final third of the pitch. Not for any particular reason other than that's just how I've always played/coached soccer in real life, so that's how I do it in the game. So maybe get the ball moving around the pitch a little more will avoid some CPU tackles? Just an idea.

Bringing up the CPU players being able to shield off your defenders is definitely a little overused/overpowered in the CPUs favor. Your players can certainly do it to, but the CPU is a little too perfect at path-finding the exact angle to shield off the ball. However, if you prepare for it, it becomes easier to handle and considering the CPUs overall lack of attacking creativity (something I assume that is the hardest thing to program) it is certainly fair for the CPU to be able to do certain things very well on the highest difficulty. It certainly makes playing against players like Drogba and Anelka a challenge... as it should be.

My answer to your final question is an enthusiastic yes. In fact, I think not using any skill moves at all is the best way to beat defenders with high dribble attribute players. It definitely takes some practice to get the timing and angles down, but with any player with the "dribbler" specialty you can take advantage of their special low-medium speed turns and extra touches to cut through the CPU defense. I got much, much better with dribbling the CPU (and my mates) the instant I really cut down on using the sprint button or the right stick flick ahead (bridge) move. While there are certainly plenty opportunities to use speed moves to get around people, it is usually much easier to beat defenders with quick turns and changes of direction... which is what you see in real life anyway.

Dribbling in footy games for years has almost always been about speed. As soon as your team had the fastest players you could either launch through-balls over the top or sprint around the side of players and cut back toward goal... over... and over... and over... until you got bored and realized it was a nice day outside and you'd turn the console off. While those tactics can still be effective in the right situations, the CPU AI does a decent enough job defending against it that you can't rely on it. Which in turn makes dribbling more challenging and interesting, forcing you to use the intricate slower dribbling skills as much as the speedier moves.

Like I said, given your history with beating up on the CPU in sports games on the highest difficulty, I'm sure you will get there with FIFA 11. I imagine coming from PES you are just going to have to rewire your instincts as to what the best moves in different situations are for FIFA in comparison to PES. Hopefully, the game will still be fun for you when your winning most of the time as it is for me. Enjoy.
 
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http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/67155393

Here is a video demonstrating a pretty common way I break down the CPU.

I play a 4-3-3 with a sitting CDM and attacking outside backs. This gives me a lot of space to pass it around, which is really important in moving the CPU out of position, which is what I do here.

What you don't see before the replay starts, is about 10-15 or so passes I made before hand just circulating the ball around the back of the defense, trying to probe the defense. The last few passes before this picks up, were of me trying to move the ball down the left side. It was block, so I dropped the ball from my left winger to my left back, the hit a long pass to my right center defender, who dropped the ball to my right back on the right touchline. We pick up from here.

1. First pass is down the touch line to the RW (Charlie Davies) who is dropping back and asking for the ball. My RAM (an aging Robbie Fowler) decides to make a burst forward (I didn't initiate it with the "LB/L1" button, but it's what his positional arrow tells him to do) setting up Davies to try for the give-and-go.

2. The next pass is me trying execute the give-and-go ("LB + pass). However the defender reads it and cuts off the run. Luckily, my ST (my BAP) is showing for the pass.

3. Fowler makes a brilliant touch for control and makes the pass (just the "pass" button, no LB/L1 modifier. This is important because it seems you can only have 1 player running for the give-and-go at a time, so if I had done another "LB/L1 + pass", Davies might have stopped.) to my BAP who is now surrounded by defenders.

4. Fortunately, with Davies pulling the CPU LB out of position, Fowler has space to continue his run and does just that. And even better, the defender in front of him turns toward the direction of his pass instead keeping an eye on Fowler and blocking his path (something better AI defenders like Terry or Puyol would do).

5. I have 3 defenders on me, but a streaking (at his own pace) Fowler and I take a few touches to buy time and space for a pass. One simple through pass and Fowler is through on goal.

6. The ball is sitting up for a nice curled left footed shot, and Fowler buries it with finesse.

Looks simple, but these situations don't appear all the time. What I keyed on was Fowler making the run off the ball that I didn't ask for. Whenever your AI teammate makes a surging run, you want to keep an eye on it because usually they get themselves into a good position. The other major opening was when my BAP defender blocked my path to goal (preventing me from turning and ignoring Fowler for personal glory) while at the same time Fowler loses his marker.

No dribbling required, nothing cheap, and nothing remarkable. Just taking advantage of a CPU breakdown in defense. The key to the entire development was being able to maintain possession for all the passes made before the replay started, allowing my offense to get up field and into good positions.

Hope this helps anyone struggling to breakdown the AI defense.

This is on legendary difficulty in season 5 of my Southampton career mode playing against a not great Sunderland team.

EDIT: Well, scored again in another common fashion, figured I share as well.

http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/67159890

Goals don't get much simpler than here. My LB (a bargain at 41 years old, Roberto Carlos) gets a free run down the touchline, so off I go. The CPU AI is sitting on all the short passing options, almost trying to lure me into playing it short and forcing a turnover. But, R. Carlos has enough room to veer away from his marker (who probably has a low defensive workrate, a player like Rooney would have caught up and tackled me) and get into crossing position. In goes the cross, and easy header for the goal.

The key here is when I cross it. A lot of people complain that they aren't scoring from crosses and I'm sure it's because they aren't timing it right. I don't always time it right either, but here it was pretty easy. My ST has no one touching him (so he's not getting jostled) and I'm in a great spot to hit it early with some curl (and with the right player). So I as soon as I see the ST decide to go for goal, in goes the cross.
 
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How the hell do people break down defences in this game?
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There is no end to the possibilities here. Tactically, EatonTJ made the point of using a lower league team with a few good players that your team is dependent on which brings home a point a made some time ago, only in a tactical system does creativity become relevant and effective. And only then can you judge your performances and make improvements or adjustments properly. The game plan can be literally anything! but it has to be specific and thought out and you have to try make it work. In the process of trying to make it work, whether it succeeds or fails, you learn a lot from it about the game and about your own capabilities.

Of course you don't have to go to great lengths in your gameplan but I find the more you put in the more you'll get out of it. Besides, you might be able to win those easier league games without putting in too much thought, but when the pressure comes into play for an elimination game, or when you're losing in general, you'll be prepared because that is when it matters most.
 
Dribbling is an interesting topic, I can only really speak about it in FIFA but there are a few things to keep in mind with it.

Firstly the number of dribbling options is quite large (ignoring analogue pace)

1. Normal walk/job
2. Sprinting dribble
3. L2/LT close control dribble
4. Skill dribble (L2/LT+R2/RT)
5. Hard stop (L1/LB)
6. Fake pass or shot as an exaggerated sharper turn
7. Knock on (although it seems random whether it will or just "bridge" you in to empty space :|)

Online the most effective use of dribbling is pure pace change or a skill dribble. Simply changing pace and a minor turn will usually see your opponents auto homing defender shoot passed you.

Offline its much more about understanding how the tackling animation and timing works. If we ignore "jostling/battle engine" as that's simply a case of subtly moving the ball away from a defender until you can stop/change pace and break out of the animation.

The key with dribbling at least for me is understanding the angles at which a CPU defender will tackle in. As the previous videos show once you don't panic and turn in the most suitable direction you can avoid tackles.

As with everything its about control, timing and choice. The system could be improved that is for sure but it still has a large amount of variety. I like to dribble at mixed pace, sometimes I will surge in to space, stop so my team will start to move around me and then way up whether a knock on or a turn will get me better space to work from.

I know skill moves are frowned upon on here mostly, but they do offer an interesting insight in to how to improve your dribbling success. If you ignore the fancy animation that is a skill move and understand what's actually going on you can replicate the "effect" of a skill move with the simple dribbling controls.

Skill moves "commit" a defender, there is usually a small burst of pace and change of direction. For example a sprint to hard stop and a 90 degree knock on can produce the same effect as a mc geedy spin.

There is another part of dribbling that stems from a user and a phenomena called target focalisation. Typically we tend to move at what we are looking at (its why people hit lamppost a lot in cars and bikes or fall off curbs when trying to balance on them). The same is true in games like FIFA with high twitch factors. It takes practice to adjust from focusing on the defender on to how you get to the space you want to be in and what you need to do to get there in terms of inputs.

Like I said, its far from intuitive or perfect but there is scope to enjoy it and use it. Rom, rates the PES dribbling quite highly which no doubt comes from the inertia and momentum players have in PES compared to FIFA.
 
Thanks guys this is all really helpful.

It's funny because I've also read that people suffer from not being able to score headers but for me that's the most common way of scoring. I love putting in early deep crosses, lays it on a plate for the striker sometimes.

Generally though, I'll just have to practice dribbling then. I think my main problem is that I try to be too clever, for example if I turn away from a player then I'll occasionally cut back in on myself in some misguided attempt at wrong footing the defender, but instead I just turn into the tackle. I've changed camera angle from tele to broadcast, full zoom, mid-height, and that has actually helped me keep possession more. I think I'm now seeing more space where I can logically turn into. But the main problem for me comes from keeping possession easily in the first 2/3rds of the pitch, only to hit 9 or more players sitting deep. I find little space, and am outnumbered by far in the final third.

Eaton, thanks so much for posting the videos. Just a couple of quick questions that you guys might be able to help with, but I've looked into the game's tutorials and can't seem to find anything about shielding. I think the game now makes your player do it automatically if you position the player correctly, but is there any other way to do it? Older FIFAs used to use one of the shoulder buttons.

And what tactics/quick tactics etc would you say are the best general ones for an attacking team?

Finally another problem I'd always had with this year's FIFA is defending from crosses. 99% of my goals conceded come from them. My defenders seem to always be second to the ball, or even leave strikers unmarked. I'd read ages ago that you can jostle in front of the attacker, but I don't know how seeing as the crosses come in so quickly. My timing must surely be okay, seeing as I win headers in most areas of the pitch, and score a lot of headers myself, but when defending it all seems to go wrong. Any ideas?

Thanks again guys, and I can't believe Roberto Carlos is in his 40's! Makes me feel oooooold........



And blimey, is Roberto Carlos in his 40's now?!
 
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I don't use the tricks either, beyond the occasional step-over or fake shot.

Here's a dribble that led to a goal for Lovenkrands, an example of using a defender's momentum against him:
YouTube - Lovenkrands solo.flv
Just a simple cut inside at the right time to escape a slower, clumsier opponent, and then a fake shot inside the penalty area to make space for the finish. Caldwell couldn't cope with going from full sprint to turning in the opposite direction.

I also think the right stick knock-on is highly underrated. I find that so many of my goals are created by using it at the opportune moment, making the difference between the chance for a shot on goal, or being muscled out of it and shut down. I posted about the L2/LT first touch a while back, but the RS first touch can be just as useful in the correct situation.

Here's two goals that wouldn't have happened were in not for exploiting the temporary space with an RS touch:
YouTube - RightStick.flv
The first one: despite Gabby's pace allowing him to reach Young's through ball ahead of Coloccini (which was my gameplan from the start in that fixture, to expose Campbell/Coloccini on the break), once on the ball he would have been muscled out of it by the bigger defender and the chance would have gone. Instead, the RS creates just enough separation to allow the shot to happen. Similarly in the second goal, Ireland is able to dissect the two recovering defenders with an RS touch into the space, without which they would have been able to adjust and slam the door.

Of course you can also use the RS as a dribbling mechanic, if timed correctly:
YouTube - FIFA11 Demo - Messi right thumbstick
I think that beating a player is so often about timing your movement to that split second when the defender thinks he is close enough to attempt a tackle, when his aggression kicks in and his motion is towards. Drawing him in, I guess.

Finally, drawing them out and being patient can help you prise open a packed defence. Here Wolves are leading late in the game and have both banks of four compressed to the edge of their penalty area:
YouTube - Villa Petrov.flv
Before the video, I worked the ball across the pitch to Downing out wide on the left, then came back inside to Reo-Coker (start of the video). To force Wolves to keep adjusting laterally, he rolls it square to my right-back who has stepped up into the gap recently vacated by the forward movement of one of my midfielders (Petrov). A short dribble forward draws some defenders out towards the ball, and then Petrov makes another movement, crouching and turning as one of the defenders steps out...

...and just a stab of the through pass button squeezes the ball into his path. Had Petrov not made that turn, I would have protected the ball and then probably shifted it down to A.Young on the right to start again.

I think that learning how to work the ball at the right angle with the right timing is the key to protecting the ball in tighter situations, exploiting space when it is there but, just as importantly, not trying to force it.
 
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LTFC said:
Finally another problem I'd always had with this year's FIFA is defending from crosses. 99% of my goals conceded come from them. My defenders seem to always be second to the ball, or even leave strikers unmarked. I'd read ages ago that you can jostle in front of the attacker, but I don't know how seeing as the crosses come in so quickly. My timing must surely be okay, seeing as I win headers in most areas of the pitch, and score a lot of headers myself, but when defending it all seems to go wrong. Any ideas?
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Move towards the ball first then press clear/pass. The aim is to get closer to the attacking player first and foremost.

Defending corners the aim is to apply pressure to the attacker not necessarily win the header.

The AI will do a certain level of auto-defending for you. It will do clearances (you can see this by just putting the controller down and its why defending is generally too easy)

So basically focus on disrupting the attacker first then your timing to press clear and you should start to see more success in defending them.

Also this year its much safer to use "shoot" to clear in most instances (because its faster than powering up a "lob" clearance and safer than trying a pass clearance)
 
That first Lovenkrands goal shows perfectly what is wrong with the momentum. Caldwell stopped on a sixpence. He might have been slightly slower pushing off but he actually made the wrong choice in going directly back up the pitch rather than angling his run inside. That dribble came from him getting his angles wrong rather than him not being able to cope with a hard stop (as he quite clearly could).


I do enjoy the right stick dribbling, it's a very tactile way of representing kick and rush football. But FIFA absolutely sucks at basic dribbling precisely because of things like these dead stops. If you aren't trick sticking, or fake shooting, or using extremes of sprinting and turning, then you just can't organically wrong-foot an opponent who is coming towards you with the regularity you should. Modric-style advances? Forgetaboutit.
 
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romagnoli said:
with the regularity you should. Modric-style advances? Forgetaboutit.
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Offline no. Online yes.

The problem as we have discussed seems two fold, firstly momentum and inertia aren't as "real" as they should be. Secondly the fidelity required to do it make it so difficult it doesn't encourage people to practice it when it should be organic/instinct based.

EDIT:

That's the coolest 'cut back' goal I have seen in ages ;)
 
One big thing FIFA has, and something that makes it more popular and hence more successful than PES, is how the highly accessible multiplayer is a factor that almost defines the series. It is something people kind of overlook in all the talk about pretty graphics and licenses being what draws people to FIFA.

I don't particularly enjoy playing against the AI with both games, though i do find it unbelievably boring/frustrating/crap with FIFA and just a bit bland with PES. I don't think i'm alone in that so multiplayer (local to be specific) is where both games, and most sports games, will create most of their charm. The problem i've found with PES is that despite me thinking/knowing that it is better/more realistic than FIFA, it takes so long to learn how to play the game. That's great for me because i did learn but I mean you basically have to have bought the game and put hours into it in order to learn how to play. This is something that the people i would play against haven't done, some of them don't even own consoles.

FIFA is the easier to play of the two by miles and in this respect provides a decent local multiplayer game that everybody can play. My non-console friends and i played on 10 minute half manual matches and where they struggled with PES greatly they can put up a decent effort in FIFA even on manual or semi-manual. It feels more like an arcade game obviously in this respect but it's pretty fun when you remember that. I think i can liken FIFA to a game like Super Smash Bros Melee. If you've ever played that you'll know how fun it is to play against real players and to me the charm is that it's pick up and play. Where as something like tekken, street fighter, etc provide a more realistic, indepth and complex fighting experience they takes ages to learn how to play effectively they just aren't as fun to play unless you know how to play. GT5 is a much better racing experience than Motorstorm but if i were to play local multiplayer i know i'd rather play the latter.

I know a sports game is kind of different because it should be striving for realism (though i don't FIFA is trying to at all) but i don't think you should take the aspect of accessibility and fun factor out of the equation.

I'm not advocating that PES should be easier either in order to succeed but i can acknowledge that some people like me can't find much life in it when they're bored of playing the AI and find their real life friends unable to cope with the game without buying it (Why they removed training i'll never know). The old PES' were pretty difficult and in-depth but never had the problem PES 2011 has because it was always the better of the two series by far. I think this is an overlooked part of their successes. Fifa now has this kind of multiplayer thrill and it's drawing in factor is massive. At least one thing PES 3/4/5 proved to me is that you can have an in-depth and accessible game. PES has completely lost that formula and it is to FIFA's advantage.

I think i can sum up my point best when i say that despite the fact i like PES much more i am thinking about buying FIFA for myself just so i can play local multiplayer.
 
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glen said:
Offline no. Online yes.

The problem as we have discussed seems two fold, firstly momentum and inertia aren't as "real" as they should be. Secondly the fidelity required to do it make it so difficult it doesn't encourage people to practice it when it should be organic/instinct based.

EDIT:

That's the coolest 'cut back' goal I have seen in ages ;)
Click to expand...

What can I say? The game brings out the cnut in all of us ;)


Northzzz - definitely agree that the accessibility makes FIFA the one to bring out for friends not in the know. The presentation wows and the animations dazzle. Whether the current gap between the two titles in this department remains as big will be interesting to see in the coming months.
 
Konami needs to incorporate the right stick knock on. I think that would alleviate some of the negatives a lot of people feel. It is almost impossible for an average player to get into space even with the fastest players.
 
All this dribbling stuff you guys are going on about is just silly really.

All you're doing is proving it's POSSIBLE to beat players after having hours and hours of practice to master the controls, even then going on to say it's not possible online...

I couldn't care less whether it's actually possible, I want it to feel organic and realistic - this quite simply is NOT the case for a number of reasons, mainly the insanely perfect stab-tackling and the lack of realistic player momentum.

You can't take someone on in a realistic fashion when they are able to do things beyond the bounds of human possibility...

Someone who doesn't understand or watch football enough may not pick up on the obvious lack of realism in the dribbling/tackling, and enjoy the "challenge" of it (or lack of re: tackling), but it's way too evident shows itself too frequently for me to simply ignore or put up with.

Jimmy G-Force said:
I dont think there is any need for you to switch to PES if you enjoy and prefer Fifa, different strokes for different folks. If you dont ike or appreciate what PES 2011 offers, then in my opinion, you never will. I'm just glad there are two titles to cater for everyones tastes. :)
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I agree.

The huge margin between the games in terms of simulating football (purely gameplay) is so far in PES' favour this year that to prefer FIFA, you must just be looking for a good "video game" in general and I doubt PES will ever be better in that regard.
 
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