Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3
- Thread starter jonneymendoza
- Start date
Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
As I posted on the EA forum, I can't see EA ever moving away from the pick up and play group or the UT type revenue, so I feel we need a way to add layers there for those who want them while still allowing those people who want the basic game to put the disk in and have Ronaldo or Messi dancing down the pitch for 90Mins.
Anyone who is looking for a sudden change in direction from EA or living in the hope it's somehow going to change to becoming some kind of purest game are going to be waiting a long time. FIFA is a massive success like it or not and any changes we hope to make can't interfere with that...
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TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- 7 August 2004
- Liverpool
I think the main difference with longer match times is that you feel less inclined to rush play and have more patience. Same when you have to play a demo.
Trance_Allstar
I love lamp
- 18 March 2006
Haven't been here for quite a while. 
So I yesterday decided, after basically hating FIFA11 at this point, to download the original Demo on the 360 and see what I was actually thinking when I first played it, and liked it.
I'm sure you lot have already done this, but download the Demo again, then play a game on the full game, I would suggest maybe Barca va. Juve (play as barca), and then play the exakt game after on the Demo. Keep speed setting to slow, and difficulty to maybe professional.
The difference is absolutely huge. Playing the demo I get this joy that I remember from spending so much time with PES5, never getting tired it it. It actually feels realistic in pacing and speed, players take a moment before each action to sort of power up, and there isn't as much defender ruber banding. Players accelerate alot more slowly, and they no longer fly off the mark when they move.
Then going to the full game I just want to shut it off after a few minutes. Mainly the speed is faster and you have less time to think and react, pressure is higher from the opposition, ball physics feel different, tackling is more effective from the CPU, etc.
GOD I wish I could atleast get the Demo gameplay in the actual game, it's not perfect by any means, but so much better than what I have now. When even Barca feel this slow in the Demo, I would love to play some Slow games with 1-2 star teams and really feel the weight and sluggishness of the players, and have them actually look like they do when you watch a real game.
I hate you EA...
So I yesterday decided, after basically hating FIFA11 at this point, to download the original Demo on the 360 and see what I was actually thinking when I first played it, and liked it.
I'm sure you lot have already done this, but download the Demo again, then play a game on the full game, I would suggest maybe Barca va. Juve (play as barca), and then play the exakt game after on the Demo. Keep speed setting to slow, and difficulty to maybe professional.
The difference is absolutely huge. Playing the demo I get this joy that I remember from spending so much time with PES5, never getting tired it it. It actually feels realistic in pacing and speed, players take a moment before each action to sort of power up, and there isn't as much defender ruber banding. Players accelerate alot more slowly, and they no longer fly off the mark when they move.
Then going to the full game I just want to shut it off after a few minutes. Mainly the speed is faster and you have less time to think and react, pressure is higher from the opposition, ball physics feel different, tackling is more effective from the CPU, etc.
GOD I wish I could atleast get the Demo gameplay in the actual game, it's not perfect by any means, but so much better than what I have now. When even Barca feel this slow in the Demo, I would love to play some Slow games with 1-2 star teams and really feel the weight and sluggishness of the players, and have them actually look like they do when you watch a real game.
I hate you EA...
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Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
Really? I hated the demo so much that I didn't even bother with the full game. Can't imagine how arcady the full release must be.
For what it's worth I'm going to reiterate my stance. Having time in that last third of the pitch is not realistic. Fifa has done a gone job as far AI defending, it’s not nearly perfect but it gives the effect of real football; it's just that most people aren't willing to learn the subtleties of the game. It is all the more satisfying that it takes real experience and practice to learn how to break down the opposition both tactically with managerial decisions and technically on the pitch. And with every passing weekend as I get better the more I really appreciate what EA have done in this regard. In the middle of the pitch there is in fact too much time allowed on the ball when the game is level and AI hardly presses with serious pressure to force errors in that area unless they are losing. The AI's offense on the other hand has a long way to go, but it still comes a long way from last year so it’s hard to complain. Besides that, defending properly and not allowing the AI to take the wings easily or pass into their strikers will bring out some more build up play, but it's likely that most players don’t attempt to defend this way.
This game is different, and it’s caused me to change completely the way I approach a football game, and for me that change is for the better. When I was younger the PES style fantasy where you get a bit of everything in every game and can virtually pull of any premeditated move were fun when I was younger, but this requires a little more quick thinking and strategic decision making, which if you are willing to practice becomes second nature over time. The game also punishes mistakes, tactical and technical, better than any other football game.
The gameplay is decent, and the aspect of breaking down the opposition for me is particularly very good. Outside the game play only leaves one bewildered at how such incompetence could occur. I don’t know anything about programming but after seeing my brother in laws 2K11, I can say that confidently.
This game is different, and it’s caused me to change completely the way I approach a football game, and for me that change is for the better. When I was younger the PES style fantasy where you get a bit of everything in every game and can virtually pull of any premeditated move were fun when I was younger, but this requires a little more quick thinking and strategic decision making, which if you are willing to practice becomes second nature over time. The game also punishes mistakes, tactical and technical, better than any other football game.
The gameplay is decent, and the aspect of breaking down the opposition for me is particularly very good. Outside the game play only leaves one bewildered at how such incompetence could occur. I don’t know anything about programming but after seeing my brother in laws 2K11, I can say that confidently.
Ibra my issues have nothing to do with how difficult it is to break teams down. I like the fact it's a challenge and that the game rewards you for patient build up play.
My main issue is that tackling is too easy. I started a CM on WC with Inter and after 14 games my record was 13 wins and 1 draw, I've conceded 4 goals! That's just not realistic. In most matches I never really feel that I'm in danger of conceding a goal. Ok so to combat this I could use a different team and/or increase the difficulty settings but really the main issue is that tackling system is majorly flawed. 90% of the time you can win the ball without pressing a button!!! I don't want that shit!
If you have played the game online it further magnifies how bad the issue is. It's easy for a human player to tackle so stick two vs each other, add unrealistic pressure and you start to see how bad the game can be.
EA said they toned down pressure and enhanced the stamina model to make pressure less effective and players tire more easily. Complete lies!!! I'd honestly prefer it if in FIFA 12 pressure was completely removed or at least included as a player trait so only certain players could pressure. Although this is unrealistic it's still closer to being realistic than what we currently have.
sir_poc
Quite literally League 2
Great post Robo, pressure taclking is what has driven me away from FIFA this year, and back over to PES again.
The pressure is a joke, to me it's unplayable. Against the CPU, I don't use it really, so that's ok for offline, I try not to cheat myself, but even then you just run into players without holding anything down and you find you've won the ball back.
I've just discovered online gaming this year really for the first time, and it makes online play a pressure fest that's even worse than playing against the CPU sadly for me. It's almost like since I started playing FIFA in '08, the same has become less and less complex in the basic controls to the point where I just feel there is no depth to the game especially in the defence controls
Full Manual is still a very enjoyable experience, and even online in general you don't get cocks playing on manual. But Manual controls has it's own issues as well, to the point where I feel that there is a huge sense of indivduality lost in the players.
The pressure is a joke, to me it's unplayable. Against the CPU, I don't use it really, so that's ok for offline, I try not to cheat myself, but even then you just run into players without holding anything down and you find you've won the ball back.
I've just discovered online gaming this year really for the first time, and it makes online play a pressure fest that's even worse than playing against the CPU sadly for me. It's almost like since I started playing FIFA in '08, the same has become less and less complex in the basic controls to the point where I just feel there is no depth to the game especially in the defence controls
Full Manual is still a very enjoyable experience, and even online in general you don't get cocks playing on manual. But Manual controls has it's own issues as well, to the point where I feel that there is a huge sense of indivduality lost in the players.
I`m only talking about offline vs CPU, and specifically on legendary. User controlled games are always difficult to judge for obvious reasons.
In my experience holding x just to tackle on legendary is almost suicide. Have you tried legendary on CMÉ If not then try it and let me know as I am sure you will not just be able to press x to win the ball back. The AI will walk right around you.
I stopped playing 2 player a long time ago becuase either the pressure is too easy to punish or you are forced to play the same way to compensate for poor AI (such as the CB`s in Fifa 10). Either way its no fun. Several posts on this forum suggest that many people do find other decent players to play against. In any case, these are user problems more so than a problem with the game. An idiot proof game would be nice, but of course EA have to accomadate eveyone. Besides I am convinced that you can get good enough to be able to make pressure counter-productive...untill then avoid playing against casual gamers and idiots.
In my experience holding x just to tackle on legendary is almost suicide. Have you tried legendary on CMÉ If not then try it and let me know as I am sure you will not just be able to press x to win the ball back. The AI will walk right around you.
I stopped playing 2 player a long time ago becuase either the pressure is too easy to punish or you are forced to play the same way to compensate for poor AI (such as the CB`s in Fifa 10). Either way its no fun. Several posts on this forum suggest that many people do find other decent players to play against. In any case, these are user problems more so than a problem with the game. An idiot proof game would be nice, but of course EA have to accomadate eveyone. Besides I am convinced that you can get good enough to be able to make pressure counter-productive...untill then avoid playing against casual gamers and idiots.
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nerf
Forming triangles
Playing Manual against the AI on Legendary (without using the pressure buttons) is the only way I can enjoy the game. The difficulty keeps me entertained and I can play it in my own style, negating some of the flaws to an extent.
I played a few matches yesterday for the first time in about a month (due to having one arm in a sling) and had fun with it. I follow what ibra77 is saying about the mentality necessitated by the lack of time on the ball in the final third, and the punishment of mistakes. It all depends on your mindset I guess. Protecting and manouvering the ball through these tight defences remains very statisfying to me, when it comes off.
I played a few matches yesterday for the first time in about a month (due to having one arm in a sling) and had fun with it. I follow what ibra77 is saying about the mentality necessitated by the lack of time on the ball in the final third, and the punishment of mistakes. It all depends on your mindset I guess. Protecting and manouvering the ball through these tight defences remains very statisfying to me, when it comes off.
Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
I think the game against the AI clearly has good points and bad points as well as some glaring problems, I find it can be great some sessions and painful the next...
Not sure exactly what you mean by more than two matches, but I almost never play more than one 15min/half CM match at a time. I think overplaying is probably one of the reasons why a lot of people aren't enjoying this game. Whenever I've prepared for a fixture, thinking out strategies defensive and offensive, and studying my line up, tweak the custom tactics and make slight changes to the formation, the game simply never fails to be satisfying. My theory is if you've put enough into one or two games you you should feel spent and you should'nt feel like playing any more meaningful games. Preparing for a game also helps to assess where things went wrong and why things did/didn't work which in turn gives you managerial experience. Conversely any time I've gone for a quick fix, the game usually doesn't pan out well.
Suuuuupertalk
International
- 17 August 2010
- Luton Town
I popped this game back into my 360 for the first time in about 5 weeks, and first up I went down a level to Professional. The game was far more enjoyable. You could actually shield the ball properly without having someone rampage through the back of you and taking the ball. You could stand still on the ball in deep positions and the AI would hold off and wait for you to make your move, within reason of course. Problem is, it's way too easy.
My next match, I went back up to World Class level, and the game immediately played out like almost every game I'd played before I stopped playing FIFA11. I won the game, as I usually did before, but every bit of joy from trying to be creative was sucked out of the game. You can't dribble round players even with skillful players. By default, the AI seems to just take it off you in the final third of the field. The game kept doing one of my absolute pet hates, where you pass to a player nearby and in space, and while the ball travels towards him, he either stops moving or backs off completely, and the AI defender just instantly runs in front of your player and takes the ball before you have a chance to move the attacker yourself.
Anyways, every game before I quit played identically, leaving the game frustrating and boring to play. I found this to be the case after just one game on World Class. I won thanks to a last minute header, but the final stats showed that typically I had 68% of the ball (a CRAZILY high possession rate. No real life match is ever this one sided), 8 shots on target to the AI's zero. Not one. I spent the entire match, as ever, passing the ball forwards, left, right, backwards, keeping the ball, waiting for an opening. Enter the final third of the field, the AI becomes superhuman and just takes the ball off you by running into you, whether you're shielding away from the player, using 360 dribbling, whatever. The AI packed their final third with 10 players leaving one lone striker isolated about 30 yards from his nearest team mate, and the match again became a precession of me winning the ball back, keeping possession for ages, before getting muscled off the ball by herds of roaming defenders, winning it back, occasionally having a shot from a move that I've done again and again and again. There's no room for creativity, for flicking the ball through someone's legs, playing a deft one two and cheeky pass. There's no room because the AI is programmed to shut you out in an attempt to 'simulate' difficulty. It just leaves you playing the same kind of attacks, whether intentional or not, because at least that way you won't lose the ball by default.
It's a massive shame because I loved FIFA09 and the World Cup 2010 game, but in-between FIFA's 10 and 11 are getting, for me anyways (other people obviously love the game, and fair play if they do) progressively worse.
I'm even hating PES at the moment, I desperately want a football game that's tough but rewards creativity. I don't feel that the cheap AI pressure is allowing this in either game to be honest. As bizarre as it sounds I'm becoming tempted to fish out my old copy of FIFA09, though I'm sure time hasn't been kind to it. But at least it won't leave me feeling so frustrated. I've never encountered a sports title that's such a chore. Rather than trying my skill against the AI, FIFA11 leaves me feeling almost stressed when playing. It's more a game of how to play around the crazy AI pressure and find a workaround the incredible hulk style tackling than enjoying trying something audacious and occasionally getting away with it. Granted, some people you see on Youtube are amazing at the game, I'm an average gamer at best, but previous football games down the years have always somehow been tough but allowed you to try some cool moves/crosses/efforts on goal etc that leave you excited. Some how this feels like it's been sucked out of recent games. The AI pressure in both FIFA and PES (post-patch) are insane, and really poor ways of making the game harder to beat. I never remember this level of pressure in older games, yet they were still more than challenging enough.
So what's the reason for this new found love of AI pressure? Lazy coding? It sure feels to me that the AI for offline games is somehow, and inexplicably, getting worse. Maybe not enough attention is being devoted to offline now because of online play being a major factor nowadays. I just don't know.
My next match, I went back up to World Class level, and the game immediately played out like almost every game I'd played before I stopped playing FIFA11. I won the game, as I usually did before, but every bit of joy from trying to be creative was sucked out of the game. You can't dribble round players even with skillful players. By default, the AI seems to just take it off you in the final third of the field. The game kept doing one of my absolute pet hates, where you pass to a player nearby and in space, and while the ball travels towards him, he either stops moving or backs off completely, and the AI defender just instantly runs in front of your player and takes the ball before you have a chance to move the attacker yourself.
Anyways, every game before I quit played identically, leaving the game frustrating and boring to play. I found this to be the case after just one game on World Class. I won thanks to a last minute header, but the final stats showed that typically I had 68% of the ball (a CRAZILY high possession rate. No real life match is ever this one sided), 8 shots on target to the AI's zero. Not one. I spent the entire match, as ever, passing the ball forwards, left, right, backwards, keeping the ball, waiting for an opening. Enter the final third of the field, the AI becomes superhuman and just takes the ball off you by running into you, whether you're shielding away from the player, using 360 dribbling, whatever. The AI packed their final third with 10 players leaving one lone striker isolated about 30 yards from his nearest team mate, and the match again became a precession of me winning the ball back, keeping possession for ages, before getting muscled off the ball by herds of roaming defenders, winning it back, occasionally having a shot from a move that I've done again and again and again. There's no room for creativity, for flicking the ball through someone's legs, playing a deft one two and cheeky pass. There's no room because the AI is programmed to shut you out in an attempt to 'simulate' difficulty. It just leaves you playing the same kind of attacks, whether intentional or not, because at least that way you won't lose the ball by default.
It's a massive shame because I loved FIFA09 and the World Cup 2010 game, but in-between FIFA's 10 and 11 are getting, for me anyways (other people obviously love the game, and fair play if they do) progressively worse.
I'm even hating PES at the moment, I desperately want a football game that's tough but rewards creativity. I don't feel that the cheap AI pressure is allowing this in either game to be honest. As bizarre as it sounds I'm becoming tempted to fish out my old copy of FIFA09, though I'm sure time hasn't been kind to it. But at least it won't leave me feeling so frustrated. I've never encountered a sports title that's such a chore. Rather than trying my skill against the AI, FIFA11 leaves me feeling almost stressed when playing. It's more a game of how to play around the crazy AI pressure and find a workaround the incredible hulk style tackling than enjoying trying something audacious and occasionally getting away with it. Granted, some people you see on Youtube are amazing at the game, I'm an average gamer at best, but previous football games down the years have always somehow been tough but allowed you to try some cool moves/crosses/efforts on goal etc that leave you excited. Some how this feels like it's been sucked out of recent games. The AI pressure in both FIFA and PES (post-patch) are insane, and really poor ways of making the game harder to beat. I never remember this level of pressure in older games, yet they were still more than challenging enough.
So what's the reason for this new found love of AI pressure? Lazy coding? It sure feels to me that the AI for offline games is somehow, and inexplicably, getting worse. Maybe not enough attention is being devoted to offline now because of online play being a major factor nowadays. I just don't know.
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Fifa 11 on the Xbox is easily the best football game ever. Offline, online it plays fantastic and is very realistic. Of course, there are tweaks that could improve the game but they are minor and don't spoil my enjoyment of the game.
Personally, I want a game that takes months(6-9)to master and has a slow but steady learning curve. If you put the time in you will be rewarded and that's how it should be.
If the people who have slated the game, after such a short time, put as much effort into learning how to play it rather than trying to make clever comments they might have a bit more fun while playing.
IMO if you try hard enough, you can pull off rewarding periods of play that lead to great, realistic moves and goals. The ones you sit back and smile at when you watch the replays.
I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears and the moaners will say they are trying to create a better game, but if they can not see how great the game already is, I don't trust their judgement or suggestions on how it could be better and hope EA take no notice of them.
Stop moaning and enjoy the game: Its great.
Personally, I want a game that takes months(6-9)to master and has a slow but steady learning curve. If you put the time in you will be rewarded and that's how it should be.
If the people who have slated the game, after such a short time, put as much effort into learning how to play it rather than trying to make clever comments they might have a bit more fun while playing.
IMO if you try hard enough, you can pull off rewarding periods of play that lead to great, realistic moves and goals. The ones you sit back and smile at when you watch the replays.
I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears and the moaners will say they are trying to create a better game, but if they can not see how great the game already is, I don't trust their judgement or suggestions on how it could be better and hope EA take no notice of them.
Stop moaning and enjoy the game: Its great.
Now, my skill has nothing to do with stupid tackling, no individuality of players or clubs, no different styles of playing, no stamina effect, absolutely slow passing in manual (just to balance things and reduce effectivenes of passing, which is pathetically cheap), stupid levels of pressure without any kind of penalization, countless bugs in CM whatever the mode, bonus boosts to awareness of defenders no matter the stats... Wow, yes, it's great amigo!
Or maybe you don't even get what any of this means. It doesnt' matter, I'm sure that the problem is that I "didn't get" how it is supposed to be played, that I'm no good enough for the game and I havenpt "mastered" full manual at all. Yes, it must be that what I'm missing and I shouldn't make clever comments. After all, I'll never be as clever as you... I really hope EA take no notice of myself, please.
I've been playing full manual since Fifa 08, kid, and know how is it supposed to play. In fact, I've played with a lot of members of this forum for along period of time and most of us agree on a big list of points that have been going downwards every year. Maybe we're all bad players and can't play the game properly. And maybe kids who play assisted and have nothing to complain about the game are just clever geniuses that got "how to play"?
Or maybe you don't even get what any of this means. It doesnt' matter, I'm sure that the problem is that I "didn't get" how it is supposed to be played, that I'm no good enough for the game and I havenpt "mastered" full manual at all. Yes, it must be that what I'm missing and I shouldn't make clever comments. After all, I'll never be as clever as you... I really hope EA take no notice of myself, please.
I've been playing full manual since Fifa 08, kid, and know how is it supposed to play. In fact, I've played with a lot of members of this forum for along period of time and most of us agree on a big list of points that have been going downwards every year. Maybe we're all bad players and can't play the game properly. And maybe kids who play assisted and have nothing to complain about the game are just clever geniuses that got "how to play"?
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sir_poc
Quite literally League 2
Deep, I respect how you feel, but to me FIFA 11 is one of the most pick up and play football games I've ever played.
There is little to it, and I've got a teenage brother who was playing this game on legendary within a week.
I personally find the defensive aspect of FIFA 11, some of the most basic controls to master on any console football game, I've ever played. I'm not stretching a point there, it's how I feel. It means winning the ball back stupidly easy, and that I would have close to 70% posession every single match, even on legendary, manual controls. The game certainly wasn't easy to break down, but I pretty much know against the AI I'm going to keep a clean sheet at least 50% of the time if not more, and in 6 minute halves, there's pretty much always time to get a goal.
Half of the reason I actually do still play FIFA 11 from time to time, as opposed to being obsessed with 09,10, is that it is so easy to pick up and play. I can be playing PES for a week, go back to a game of FIFA 11 at the weekend, and one game, and you've picked it all back up.
There are a lot of things I do actually love about FIFA that draws me back, but game depth, sadly, isn't one of them.
There is little to it, and I've got a teenage brother who was playing this game on legendary within a week.
I personally find the defensive aspect of FIFA 11, some of the most basic controls to master on any console football game, I've ever played. I'm not stretching a point there, it's how I feel. It means winning the ball back stupidly easy, and that I would have close to 70% posession every single match, even on legendary, manual controls. The game certainly wasn't easy to break down, but I pretty much know against the AI I'm going to keep a clean sheet at least 50% of the time if not more, and in 6 minute halves, there's pretty much always time to get a goal.
Half of the reason I actually do still play FIFA 11 from time to time, as opposed to being obsessed with 09,10, is that it is so easy to pick up and play. I can be playing PES for a week, go back to a game of FIFA 11 at the weekend, and one game, and you've picked it all back up.
There are a lot of things I do actually love about FIFA that draws me back, but game depth, sadly, isn't one of them.
Placebo
Ԁlɐɔǝqo
It's not about how good or bad I play, I'm actually pretty good at it thank you, it's the fact that the already castrated career mode is riddled with bugs/glitches that aren't being fixed, that's what pisses me off about it and spoils the game, I enjoy the actual gameplay but that enjoyment is stunted by the extremely poorly done career mode.
EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
For as stripped down as the CM is, I still wouldn't hate it if it just worked. I've never made a CM past season 3. I never sim games, so it's a pretty big investment in my time for it all to just disappear because of some sort of menu freeze or custom formation bug.
The actual gameplay is pretty good, there is certainly more improvement needed, but we are certainly in the middle of a golden age for FIFA on the pitch. The manager mode stuff is just terrible though. It's about as feature filled as a sports game from 2 generations ago (PS1/N64 days), they've removed so much from the mode that the *only* thing to manage is transfers & wages.
In comparison to other sports games (including other EA games), the career mode is a barren wasteland. Outside of player transfers, the only activity is trying not to make a game ending bug appear.
Not fun.
MindlessDrugHoover
Non-League
- 20 August 2010
Thought I'd offer my opinion after a while..I bought Fifa 11, mainly for multiplayer but also offline. After a couple of weeks I thought it was too 'samey', so I went and bought PRO. There is no denying that PRO has a wonderful career mode/master league...managed to take a team from division 2 always the way up and eventually win champ league in 4 seasons. This was on highest difficulty to.
I have to say though, every game in PRO felt the same....I was scoring the same kind of goals (especially the one on one side foot scoring technique), it just got very stale and I have to say slightly boring. I put in Fifa 11 yesterday and played with a mate for a long time and it just felt miles more exciting. Variety of the goals, the shooting etc...
It is definiely a pick up and play game and I can see the disadvantages of that, but I think there is much more good that outweighs the bad here.
I have to say though, every game in PRO felt the same....I was scoring the same kind of goals (especially the one on one side foot scoring technique), it just got very stale and I have to say slightly boring. I put in Fifa 11 yesterday and played with a mate for a long time and it just felt miles more exciting. Variety of the goals, the shooting etc...
It is definiely a pick up and play game and I can see the disadvantages of that, but I think there is much more good that outweighs the bad here.
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
If PES only had one thing over FIFA then it would be exactly that - the variety of goals. That's pretty widely accepted I thought - it's certainly true in any case. It's worth shooting from anywhere provided your player is correctly positioned and poised to have a go, and keepers aren't guaranteed to keep the ball out just because they can reach it. You're honestly the first person I've seen think that this was the opposite way round.
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MindlessDrugHoover
Non-League
- 20 August 2010
Maybe it was just my experience then mate. In fact, it must of been because of these reason:
Taking control of an D2 team (my one was Wondegine Town), your aware that these aren't the best players. Individual skill is so apparent here i.e you know when you have a great player or a rubbish/mediocre player. So when playing other teams on Top Player mode, the thing I loved was the challenge that the other team gave. It was difficult to score, so I had to implement a methodical approach to scoring.
Basically the only way I could score was using the 1-2 passing with many players crowded near the area. So I would get one on one and just side foot it in.
When your competing for the league, promotion or cup, the result is all that matters and you feel like you can't experiment enough to get a different variety of goals because your so used to the devil you know. None of my wingers were quick enough to take anyone on, few had so much agility...so the system I employed worked and I got so used to it.
Even when I upgraded my players to good ones, I was so just keen on getting the result, I would still use the same system and it worked like a treat. This is probably why I felt there was little variety. Maybe I should do ML with a top team so I can use the top players.
To summarise, I just felt PRO was very challenging (which is fantastic) but I thought it was too methodical to entertain. Like a good example would be its the 85th minute, your losing 1-0...I wouldn't attempt a 30 yard shot in this example because I knew 9/10 times it would not work or trouble keeper. I was resigned to the fact that I would have to try something intricate and more what I am used to (the 1-2 passing). But in Fifa, you get those moments where you think this is possible, might not happen but if it does, it be a wow moment. I just think PRO needs to balance the entertainment side more with its methodical and challenging approach, and then it will beat Fifa hands down and out-sell it to, no question about that.
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If I could comment on this point if you don't mind. The keeper thing was brought up before and I had decided to do a little "reality check". I never bothered to comment back then as I felt if I kept carrying on I would end up writing a book.
It's not a comprehensive study by any means but I watched most of Liverpool's and Chelsea's goals for 08/09 which is more than 100 goals. Then I watched all of David Villa's and Adebayor's goals for a particular season which add up to about 50 goals. 4 things...
1.All together out of at least 150 goals, I counted about 10 give or take a little in which the goalie was able to get a hand on the ball and yet it still went in, which is less than 7%.
2. ALL of those cases were from inside the box, excluding free kicks. Most of them were well inside the box.
3. The goals in which a goalie got a hand on the ball in real life have all happened to me in some variation in fifa11, and before I heard the complaints I greatly under appreciated it. This includes one on one with the goalie, powerful headers, and goal mouth scrambles. In fact I've even had one shot with so much power and so much spin that the goalie did not move at all - so even that is in the game. I've also had 2 quick fire low shots through traffic go near center of the goal and sneak past the goalie's late reaction.
All this and I believe I am completely inept at shooting as I haven't practiced in game shooting at all. That would require a lot of time on the end to end camera studying goalie and defender reactions(on legendary), studying spaces, studying scenario's, and also the impact of movement, body position, and timing and other factors on the shot. Does it pay to do any of that on PES?
4. In order to assess any aspect of the game you need to take a closer look at the real thing. I've been watching football all my life and if you told me that such a small percentage of goals actually deflect off of goalies I probably wouldn't have believed it, so it's important not to judge things based on perception.
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
I have no way of corroborating any of your research so there's not a lot I can do one way or another except address the subjective bits - the goalkeepers in FIFA are pretty much unanimously accepted to be superhuman. No way in hell do they let in soft goals or straight but hard shots often enough to represent real life, and I will take a hell of a lot of convincing that shooting from any angle is anywhere near PES for freedom to potentially score. A lot of that the insufficient amount of these soft hands, but a lot of that is also down to the keepers not pre-empting a shot (having a guess when you should be too close for them to react). Remember that it's not just about whether the keeper touches the ball and it still goes in, but whether it's within range for him to be able to get a hand on the ball.
I'd also be very dubious about using top finishers (ignoring Adebayor) as case studies of this sort of thing - I would expect David Villa or Drogba or Torres to leave the keeper with no chance.
PES is the go-to game for this. These things are infinitely more important in PES than FIFA. I actually asked the devs at EA if they could make shooting (particularly volleys) more timing dependent and they screwed their noses up.
I'd also be very dubious about using top finishers (ignoring Adebayor) as case studies of this sort of thing - I would expect David Villa or Drogba or Torres to leave the keeper with no chance.
PES is the go-to game for this. These things are infinitely more important in PES than FIFA. I actually asked the devs at EA if they could make shooting (particularly volleys) more timing dependent and they screwed their noses up.
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
In FIFA the goalies also never just try to get "big" to save a shot. They always managed to make a supernatural quick dive and use their hands. In PES the golies just spread arms and legs out, so you get a lot of saves with the feet from close range which is pretty realistic to me. Also since they are not scripted to dive save with their hands, the ball might just hit anywhere and bounce completely freely.
FIFA still have the problem with you knowing where the ball will end up when the keeper starts its save animation.
FIFA still have the problem with you knowing where the ball will end up when the keeper starts its save animation.
Don't know, don't see anything super human about the goalies in my experience. Never even thought to my self "he shouldn't have saved that", not even once. These videos aren't so good as they are from sunday before I read your posts and weren't originally intended to demonstrate this point, never the less one is a straight shot in which the goalie was also well positioned and still didn't save it, and in the 2nd video the goalie jumps completely in the opposite direction.
1.YouTube - 62' Macheda Siena
2.YouTube - 78' Neymar samp
goalies reactions vary. In the first video the shot was really saveable but the keepers dive was dismal, his feet barely left the ground,and their was only one place that shot was going as all other angles were closed off. not quite super human.
1.YouTube - 62' Macheda Siena
2.YouTube - 78' Neymar samp
goalies reactions vary. In the first video the shot was really saveable but the keepers dive was dismal, his feet barely left the ground,and their was only one place that shot was going as all other angles were closed off. not quite super human.
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Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
I think FIFA as a whole suffers from AI ESP, there are far too many times it's clear there is a perceptible movement from the AI as you push the button or move the stick. This spoils the whole facade and bluntly reminds you you're essentially playing code...
If I am understanding you correctly that is percisely what I would argue against. I've mentioned this before and posted some videos demonstrating how the AI anticpates what you are going to do but it does't "know" what you are going to do. It does this in a combination of what I can loosely call reverse phschology in alternation with blocking the least complex and least difficult path to execute with your controller. It also anticipates rushed and desperate panic moves i.e Those decisions you make based on excitement, despearation, or fear of losing the ball. This in fact is why I think the game is so good. The way they have put that into the gameplay this year is a milestone equal to the jump from fifa07 to 08 in my opinion - a huge step in the right direction.
The defenders can be fooled much like a matador would fool a bull but you have to be sharp and never loose focus. I think I'll post a couple more videos sometime next week to demonstrate this point especially with respect to dribbling.
YouTube - overrun
It's the end of the game and I'm up, Cesena are throwing everything up and pressing desperately, if you look closely you will see that as soon as the defender on the ball gets infront of my LB and opens up the angle for a pass to my CM,the lurking defender anticpates the pass and closes that very same angle that was open momentarily. It may not look it but I'm actually under quite a bit of pressure but I don't panic and simply play the ball in behind him. Counter attack is on. desperate defenders get offside trap all wrong. through pass. goal. 3points in the bag. wonderful.
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Suuuuupertalk
International
- 17 August 2010
- Luton Town
Couldn't have said it any better, Nick. That's exactly how I feel. The higher in difficulty you go, it feels like the AI reads your pad input on certain occasions.
It may sound ridiculous, but one example is that if an AI defender has to run back towards his own goal to collect a ball that went over the top of the defence, and you chase him down, you basically have to decide whether he's going to turn on the ball to the left or the right, and then make the tackle from behind. Without fail, on World Class or higher, that player will 100% turn in the opposite direction that you choose to go. That can't be a coincidence.
Likewise, the worst thing in this game apart from the AI pressure is when you make a simple pass to a team mate, who is in space and facing you, at a decent distance, and he will sometimes inexplicably just stand there while the ball travels to him, just for a split second or two before player control switches to that player. In the meantime, the AI defender who wasn't even marking him tight in the first place, seems to start his run to intercept the ball as you press the button, and before the kicking animation has even completed. It in effect makes the AI defender sprint ahead of the player you're passing to and intercept the ball ahead of a temporarily immobile team mate. So you play a simple pass to a player in acres of space, and somehow the AI just sprints ahead and takes the ball before it reaches its destination.
Very annoying.
Also, the way the AI attacks almost feels like it's playing in 'grids' on the pitch. This feels especially noticeable when you play in Tele camera. The AI's passing seems to channel itself through certain areas, like it's been coded to pass along certain 'grid' lines if that makes any sense at all. It in effect feels coded to play the ball into certain areas, and then remove your ability to do anything about it even when you know what it's about to do. The classic one I can think of is the move whereby a player in a central position plays a high long ball out to the wings, over your full back's head, straight to the foot of a winger. He puts a cross straight onto the head of an attacker in the penalty area, who heads it in, who is also usually free of his marker before the game even switches control of your defender from full back to the CB in the middle, who should be dealing with the cross. Yes, there are ways to deal with it, but my point is that the fact that the AI tries this little maneuver over and over makes the game feel like you're playing code. We are playing against code, but the point of the game is to make it feel like were' not, and EA are doing a poor job of that.
It may sound ridiculous, but one example is that if an AI defender has to run back towards his own goal to collect a ball that went over the top of the defence, and you chase him down, you basically have to decide whether he's going to turn on the ball to the left or the right, and then make the tackle from behind. Without fail, on World Class or higher, that player will 100% turn in the opposite direction that you choose to go. That can't be a coincidence.
Likewise, the worst thing in this game apart from the AI pressure is when you make a simple pass to a team mate, who is in space and facing you, at a decent distance, and he will sometimes inexplicably just stand there while the ball travels to him, just for a split second or two before player control switches to that player. In the meantime, the AI defender who wasn't even marking him tight in the first place, seems to start his run to intercept the ball as you press the button, and before the kicking animation has even completed. It in effect makes the AI defender sprint ahead of the player you're passing to and intercept the ball ahead of a temporarily immobile team mate. So you play a simple pass to a player in acres of space, and somehow the AI just sprints ahead and takes the ball before it reaches its destination.
Very annoying.
Also, the way the AI attacks almost feels like it's playing in 'grids' on the pitch. This feels especially noticeable when you play in Tele camera. The AI's passing seems to channel itself through certain areas, like it's been coded to pass along certain 'grid' lines if that makes any sense at all. It in effect feels coded to play the ball into certain areas, and then remove your ability to do anything about it even when you know what it's about to do. The classic one I can think of is the move whereby a player in a central position plays a high long ball out to the wings, over your full back's head, straight to the foot of a winger. He puts a cross straight onto the head of an attacker in the penalty area, who heads it in, who is also usually free of his marker before the game even switches control of your defender from full back to the CB in the middle, who should be dealing with the cross. Yes, there are ways to deal with it, but my point is that the fact that the AI tries this little maneuver over and over makes the game feel like you're playing code. We are playing against code, but the point of the game is to make it feel like were' not, and EA are doing a poor job of that.