Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

[ibra77]

seems to start his run to intercept the ball as you press the button,

Why should the AI wait until you press the button?

it feels like the AI reads your pad input on certain occasions.

See above, it feels that way but it's not. It takes some practice to be able to pass acurately behind defenders who sneak into passing lanes but it's well worth it when you get the hang of it.

that player will 100% turn in the opposite direction that you choose to go

My expereince is quite the opposite. the AI defenders in this situation lose the ball a little too often instead of clearing it out of bounds with their first touch or passing back to the goalie.

I can't stress enough that you have to pay attention to detail. For example here is one of many things that you could take into consideration in this scenario without going into detail. First and foremost is your own movement and positioning. If you are going to chase a player down you need to be directly behing him and only occasionaly feignting either side of him to confuse him, secondly you need to vary your speed when you get on his back. If your coming like a train on tracks all he has to do is get out of the way. I could go on about other factors, but the point is you have to take into consideration real life details instead of just doing an approximate rendition and expecting it to work every now and then.

 

[romagnoli]

The AI doesnt know what you're going to do before you do it, no. That's just how it feels in application, and feel is ultimately the most important aspect of a football game.

It's the response times the AI and the pressuring system have, plus of course the rate at which the players can turn 90-180 degrees and chase again (the momentum as it is can only be used to your advantage in very few cases compared to real life) that, combined, mean you can't work an individual opponent or in turn a team as naturally and fluidly as you should. When you see the CPU follow a turn you've made as quickly as they do, your instant reaction is to think that the AI has cheated and knows what you're pressing on your pad; in reality the AI is reacting rather than being psychic, but is having to take a fraction of the time it would take even the best of us to respond in real life. As if it's using the absolute fastest reaction time as a benchmark, rather than factoring in the time it takes for the brain to process what has happened and formulate the correct response.

The AI does have predictive routines and will look to shut out passing lanes, and of course the AI does still have some momentum to conserve so when it commits as much as in that video it won't be able to recover in time. But you'll be very hard pushed to find anyone who takes the idea that the AI has response times in line with those of a human being or that the AI 'guesses' in areas where a human would be forced to guess, remotely seriously.

That's what was being referred to with the keepers for example. They've been coded to dive like in the 2nd of those two videos when chasing a cutback pass, as one of the big things they did with keepers was work on momentum conservation. That's not guesswork; that's diving that way because the game doesn't let him dive the other way.

 

[ibra77]

Romagnoli, some good points but I think you've mixed two different issues up. Reaction times is a whole nother subject on it's own but I'm glad we agree that the CPU doesn't know what your going to do.

I do think reaction times are unrealistic in some cases, but not by too much. Players are often left for dead and I hate to keep repeating my self but it's a matter of getting it right.
Another thing is, the CPU might at times seem to have super human reactions because it takes more skill to take advantage of the space you've made for yourself than it does to make space in the first place. If you hesitate before you know it the defender is on you again. After you get past a player you have to have the awareness and skill to then take full advantage of space or at least to protect the ball. Again, at first I was frustrated but now I think it works quite well and it gives the game endless layers upon which to improve.

It's worth mentioning that the User has the advantage of seeing a lot more of what's going on around the pitch than an individual player would in real life, so the slightly fast response times do balance the game out.

The AI doesnt know what you're going to do before you do it, no. That's just how it feels in application, and feel is ultimately the most important aspect of a football game.

When I said "feel", all I meant to say is that many choose to perceive it that way. The game it self feels fine to me.

in reality the AI is reacting rather than being psychic,

As I said above anticipating rather than reacting. Two different topics.

That coding stuff you mentioned is way out of my depth, and your probably right but I'll try to test it anyway. Thanks for your reply.

 

[drekkard]

One of the (few) things I like a lot in PES is that in certain situations the CPU will act like a human would do, and it's "hardcoded" to do so. For example, inside the area, PES CPU uses to simply kick the ball away a lot of times when there's danger, which is what real players do in real life. Out of Arsenal and Barcelona, the rest of the teams won't be doing 1-2s in its own area, they simply clear the ball. And clearing the ball results most of the times in giving the ball away to the opposition, which is again quite accurate. When you pack your team in deffense, you don't cover the rest of the pitch!

In FIFA, It's just just the opposite. Any player from any team in high difficulty modes can attempt to dribble you or pass the ball accurately in practically any situation. The CPU doesn't even seem to have a "fear factor". They are not quite fond of clearing the ball. And when they do, it's not a proper clearing, it's juat a 30 yars pass to the foot of a lonely and unmarked striker. It's a joke.

There are other poor elements in the FIFA CPU routines, like never passing back, never messing a long pass or the fact they can perfectly inch-cross the ball from any point in the pitch... I would care for little details if the big picture was great, or at least decent. But the way it is now, the big picture is a turd. The CPU AI is so "hardcoded" to offer a "gamer" challenge (based on skill, not in footballing knowledge) that all the matches end up the same. The AI code is done to react the same way always, doesn't even factor team stats or condition. If you have played a single match, you've played them all.

That's what makes the details negligible.

 

[ibra77]

Ya'll are missing out.

goalkeeping is spot on, look at this one, really enjoyed this goal.

YouTube - 62' Macheda

nice little legs save for you to...

YouTube - 65' Macheda slow

it's in the game...

 

[drekkard]

Playing full manual shows better and less predictable goalkeeping, and you can now and then find great details but overall goalkeeping feels too "hardcoded" for the most part, while in PES goalkeepers feel a lot more "human", though the problem of PES is the many technical problems and that sometimes goalkeepers feel too fallible.

Overall, in FIFA goalkeepers show nice reactions and "mistakes" at very short range, but all this "diversity" fades away once you are 10 yards away from the goal. This gets obvious at middle distance shooting. In FIFA there are spots where 99% of the shots will feature the same goalkeeping reaction by any goalkeeper.

If you shoot in the middle of a match from the penalty spot, you will never have a "foot" save of the keeper, under any situation. It's this obsession for "tighten" everything and "railing" reactions that make the game less enjoyable to me. I love some of the reactions at short range, but it's bloody hard to enjoy middle and long shooting becuase of goalkeepers.

Some details may "be in the game", but only under certain conditions and if you lpay in a given way. You have to "bend" the game to force it to do realistic things. The game is designed to a specific way of playing only. It may suit how you play, and that's why you love it so much. But it definitely doesn't suit how do I want to play football.

And still, goalkeepers are the least critic problem to me. Talk about tackling, pressure, stamina, tactics, stats...

 

[romagnoli]

Ibra, besides the bit about whether the AI 'cheats' and looks at your controller input (I've always said the AI doesnt cheat, just that EA don't balance it right), I fundamentally disagree with practically everything you say in your post. I've not got two things mixed up - reactions and preemptions go hand in hand, rather than being two isolated aspects of the game, and they are not balanced evenly at all.

It's not about hesitation or any spin like that - it's completely imbalanced. Reaction times are not something that should be touched for the sake of counterbalancing the amount of pitch you can see - that's what pro passing should have been doing (but doesn't). In PES I wouldn't try a silly pass with a midfield destroyer because I'd rightly see the pass trickle off in a pretty different direction and into the path of an opponent. In FIFA the ball goes in the exact direction of the target (or the direction you press if using manual), just slightly slower. THAT'S what the problem is, not the amount of pitch you can see. You can see the pitch in PES but wouldn't think to use most of it if your player is one footed/a poor dribbler and a clumsy passer.

FIFA seems like football on a superficial level only. Core parts of football, including those aspects we haven't talked about in the past couple of days are way, way off.

 

[Rodelero]

The AI doesnt know what you're going to do before you do it, no. That's just how it feels in application, and feel is ultimately the most important aspect of a football game.

It's the opposite of a part of the Phanton Menace - where Qui-Gon explains that Anakin seems to have instant reactions because he knows what happens before it does.

With FIFA, as you say, it's that the CPU seem to be able read the future, because it seems to have incredibly fast reactions - at points what seems to be instantaneous reactions.

The same occurs, though to a lesser extent with pressure and tackling on a human level.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

It's the opposite of a part of the Phanton Menace - where Qui-Gon explains that Anakin seems to have instant reactions because he knows what happens before it does.

With FIFA, as you say, it's that the CPU seem to be able read the future, because it seems to have incredibly fast reactions - at points what seems to be instantaneous reactions.

The same occurs, though to a lesser extent with pressure and tackling on a human level.

It's probably down to those 1000 decisions per second they were boasting about a few years ago.

 

[EatonTJ]

Ibra, besides the bit about whether the AI 'cheats' and looks at your controller input (I've always said the AI doesnt cheat, just that EA don't balance it right), I fundamentally disagree with practically everything you say in your post. I've not got two things mixed up - reactions and preemptions go hand in hand, rather than being two isolated aspects of the game, and they are not balanced evenly at all.

It's not about hesitation or any spin like that - it's completely imbalanced. Reaction times are not something that should be touched for the sake of counterbalancing the amount of pitch you can see - that's what pro passing should have been doing (but doesn't). In PES I wouldn't try a silly pass with a midfield destroyer because I'd rightly see the pass trickle off in a pretty different direction and into the path of an opponent. In FIFA the ball goes in the exact direction of the target (or the direction you press if using manual), just slightly slower. THAT'S what the problem is, not the amount of pitch you can see. You can see the pitch in PES but wouldn't think to use most of it if your player is one footed/a poor dribbler and a clumsy passer.

FIFA seems like football on a superficial level only. Core parts of football, including those aspects we haven't talked about in the past couple of days are way, way off.

On the subject of pro passing, having spent a lot of time playing a lower league CM game, I have noticed a significant difference between players with pass ratings in the 50-60 range vs players in the 70-80+ range that is more than just pass power. While I'm sure other attributes factor in, trying to play one-touch pass-and-move football with lower quality players is much more difficult in FIFA 11 in comparison to FIFA 10 or FIFA 09.

Although it is rare for players to completely miss their target all together, the lower rated players definitely miss putting the ball in the perfect position for the receiving player all the time. With lower rated players, through balls are often put too far behind or infront of teammates, short passes are off target enough to force receiving players to make a bad touch. Trying to play free-flowing Barcelona-esque footy is much harder to do with lesser players.

It might not be "bad" enough as advertised by EA, but there is an accuracy effect to pro passing as well, it's just subtle.

 

[Rodelero]

On the subject of pro passing, having spent a lot of time playing a lower league CM game, I have noticed a significant difference between players with pass ratings in the 50-60 range vs players in the 70-80+ range that is more than just pass power. While I'm sure other attributes factor in, trying to play one-touch pass-and-move football with lower quality players is much more difficult in FIFA 11 in comparison to FIFA 10 or FIFA 09.

Although it is rare for players to completely miss their target all together, the lower rated players definitely miss putting the ball in the perfect position for the receiving player all the time. With lower rated players, through balls are often put too far behind or infront of teammates, short passes are off target enough to force receiving players to make a bad touch. Trying to play free-flowing Barcelona-esque footy is much harder to do with lesser players.

It might not be "bad" enough as advertised by EA, but there is an accuracy effect to pro passing as well, it's just subtle.

There is an accuracy effect but it only effects players far worse than any you'd ever play against online - even the worst passers on a 4.5 star team seem to play an infallible passing game. Also, by the time the accuracy effect becomes noticeable the slowness effect becomes utterly crippling.

EA need to remember that NO passer is perfect - if a player tries something near impossible it should reflect that, regardless of whether it's Xavi or not.

Frankly, I have to play with a team of 2 stars or lower to notice the ball going off target, regardless of the pass difficulty.

 

[EatonTJ]

There is an accuracy effect but it only effects players far worse than any you'd ever play against online - even the worst passers on a 4.5 star team seem to play an infallible passing game. Also, by the time the accuracy effect becomes noticeable the slowness effect becomes utterly crippling.

EA need to remember that NO passer is perfect - if a player tries something near impossible it should reflect that, regardless of whether it's Xavi or not.

Frankly, I have to play with a team of 2 stars or lower to notice the ball going off target, regardless of the pass difficulty.

I would agree that pretty much every player with passing ratings of 75-80+ can play just about every pass all the time (and nearly every starting 11 of a 4* or higher team is full of these players). I do think there is a noticeable difference in the ability of 90+ players, but it is practically moot because those 75-80+ rated players make so few mistakes that the benefits of a passing specialist are unnecessary.

In FIFA 11, a great passer like Xavi can play "even more perfect" passes to teammates under all conditions... however, the real world benefit of a player like Xavi isn't just the technical ability to play perfect passes under difficult conditions, but also to play easy-medium passes with near perfect consistency all the time.

The mistake that EA has made is to give too many players a Xavi level of passing consistency, ruining a bit of the variety that was promised with the pro personality stuff. Hopefully having a year of feedback and fine tuning will correct this for FIFA 12. Really, if they just made players rated in the 75-85 range pass like the players in the 65-75 range it would probably make a lot more people happy.

But, we'll see.

Really, the one thing the need to dedicate 75% of their time to is career mode. If you go by their own numbers, career mode is the most popular game type and it is by far the least polished. In comparison to the other EA Sports' games, its lack of quality is laughable.

 

[romagnoli]

One of the bigger fear barriers EA have got to face and break through is how well the lower league teams play. According to EA, people who support lower league teams don't want to have a match between them and their local rivals and have it play out in the way it would in real life. Instead of getting that comic, characterful mix of the brilliant and the godawful, you essentially just get a downscaled Premier League match. If the lower league sides end up being able to ping pong pass (as they can, if rather slowly) then what room does that leave to distinguish between players of similar standard with subtle differences? As much as you currently get.

I actually pointed this out to someone who argued that FIFA was a celebration of football in the way GT is seen as a celebration of driving. I said that if it was, then it would take as much care and put as much love into representing the way lower league players 'handle' as it does for the top players. When you buy an old, shit car in GT that you used to own (or still do) then you don't want it to handle like a slow sports car do you? Not if the game has spirit or character; not if the game is a celebration of the subject matter.

 

[Rodelero]

Really, the one thing the need to dedicate 75% of their time to is career mode. If you go by their own numbers, career mode is the most popular game type and it is by far the least polished. In comparison to the other EA Sports' games, its lack of quality is laughable.

I think Clubs and Career Mode are both in absolute dire straits to be honest. In any case - I can't agree that career mode should even be their highest concern - the gameplay should be. A lot of the problems with every mode would be helped by better gameplay.

There are two (very broad) problems with career mode outside of the severe bugs. The first is that there is a huge lack of depth - but the worst of all is the lack of personality within the AI on a player and team level. Continued (though refocused) priority towards gameplay is key.

Personality+ and Pro Passing - just what we wanted: Hypothetically.

 

[romagnoli]

Absolutely. I made it a personal mission to get as much of what we all talked about at that meeting a couple of months ago to all funnel into a central, focal point - formations, tactics and how different footballers fit into them. Not so much of a focal point then, seeing as most people would call that 'football'...!

But football matches are all about tactics and strategies. You need to look at the opposition and think about what you're facing, and how to come out as the winner. If you put into the game this sort of aspect that is of benefit to people who understand football and can see what's going to happen before it does, then you should in the same breath be giving us a massive boost in the war against the cnuts.

There's no point doing this without building the strengths and weaknesses and aptitudes and ineptitudes into the players without sanding off their rough edges for 'ease of enjoyment'. If all the pieces on the chessboard are the same then it may as well be checkers.

 

[Rodelero]

Absolutely. I made it a personal mission to get as much of what we all talked about at that meeting a couple of months ago to all funnel into a central, focal point - formations, tactics and how different footballers fit into them. Not so much of a focal point then, seeing as most people would call that 'football'...!

But football matches are all about tactics and strategies. You need to look at the opposition and think about what you're facing, and how to come out as the winner. If you put into the game this sort of aspect that is of benefit to people who understand football and can see what's going to happen before it does, then you should in the same breath be giving us a massive boost in the war against the cnuts.

There's no point doing this without building the strengths and weaknesses and aptitudes and ineptitudes into the players without sanding off their rough edges for 'ease of enjoyment'. If all the pieces on the chessboard are the same then it may as well be checkers.

Superb analogy. The tactical side of FIFA is so weak at the moment - EA have tied themselves in knots with it. I can't understand what they are trying to do in part. They have the CTT and the Custom Formations. Between the two of them they near enough crucified the tactical side of FIFA 09 and 10. In FIFA 11 they decided to half-surrender with Clubs - forcing you to select default formations, and tactics (though it may be possible to get past that for the tactics at least - haven't fully explored it).

Yet, they didn't decide to do the same with normal multiplayer... two completely contradictory policies. It is sad that EA even had to force people to stop using formations like 6-1-0-3 (the 1 being a dm), but in all honesty many default formations on ultra-defensive pretty much devolve to that anyway. It is much harder to get your team to play attackingly in FIFA 11, strangely. There seems to be a total lack of eagerness from the midfield to get forward when the ball is in attack, at least with the default stuff you get in Clubs.

We should be allowed to do what we want with formation - but for it to even be in a state where 6-1-0-3 is a workable (or even the most effective) formation says so much about their engine: the facts demand change. It's hard to know what is a bigger problem: the poorly designed tactical system which leads to it being very hard to get a strategic set up which isn't at one point or another unrealistic or suicidal... or the gameplay which allows stupidly unrealistic tactics to work.

When I look at custom team tactics, as a person who plays football manager far too much, I just find myself confused: it's very difficult to get my team to do what I want them to do.

 

[ibra77]

In order for an analogy to hold it has to be consistently true. The player personality clearly isn't their and that's a dimension of the game that is important and needs to be implemented. However it doesn't mean you can't play Xavi like Xavi plays, and play Mascherano like Mascherano plays, it's up to you how you use them. In chess and checkers the parts are limited, in Fifa the parts are without enough limitation. This is one aspect in which PES may be better, but there's something(s) more essential to a football game, that I find difficult to elaborate consicely on, that Fifa has really gotten down. The game lacks a midefeild battle where two teams sort of feel each other out, but if your strategy is highly offensive or highly defensive then the game is simply brilliant. You also get end to end type games too, but the middle ground, which is perhaps the most essential, does seem to be missing unfortunately.

Having said that, we could argue forever over the details but all I can say is I highly recommend that you give it a good go if you haven't already, as it took me weeks just to start to appreciate the game. nothing I can say will express my expereince. There were times when I thought I might toss the game out but I stuck with and now I'm over the hump. The work/progress ratio for me is what's gripping about the game and I feel like a coach slowly working towards my vision - one aspect at a time. The progress in that sense is very real as it takes time (can't stress this enough) and really shows "on the pitch", and the clear vision I have is entirely credit to the platform of the game. In a few months I beleive I will be able to play my own rendition of a convincing Arsenal style, and a few more months who knows maybe even Barca style. I'm well on my way anyhow, still using a 4-4-2 most games, and in less important games I implement my 4-3-3 to slowly gain expereince as it is still very raw.

Formations and tactics do make a difference, and better than in any other game in my opinion. And although players don't have the proper personalities and limitations, if you don't have a clear way of using a player within a proper system the game is designed such that it puts you at a disadvantage.

None of what I say applies to online, multiplayer or whatever else, I never play them so I don't know.

 

[drekkard]

I could play Barcelona style 2 days after the game shipped, the problem is I could do something resemblign Barça style even with pretty much any team in the game.

And in the other hand you CAN'T play like a Accrington Stanley plays in reality, you just can't. You can't play like very small teams, mainly because your passing is so good you could have 70% possession if you wanted. I'm talking of possession, not chances. In real life a small team can't even hold possession for more than 30 seconds!

It's good for you that the game makes you feel such intrincate feelings. In my personal experience the game is totally flat, cheap and has been dumbed own each iteration.

You maybe don't notice things such as strikers always receiving unmarked in the own half to start a counter. I do and it makes me so nervous I end up quiting the game. This is one of the most stupid things in this series. Having strikers unmarked in the own half makes them bloody easy to pass to start a coutner, which totally destroys ANY kind of tactics and makes the matches a matter of counter-fest until someone decides to spend some time on the ball before losing it against 10 men defending inside its own area...).

The players defending inside the area have some awareness boost, so the moment the ball is loose or there's a turnover, the defending team has it so bloody easy to start a counter.There are big gaps in the middle of the field. Attacks and defenses simply run from one end to the other packing at the ends.

Formations seem to work for doing a specific set of mechanical movements and passes most of the time, as players tend to do the same always. And when you get tired of the set of movements your tactics allow, you change formation. Just to break the boredom. And the fact that there's only "Running forwards" in the game helps making all tactics too samey.

So tactics are practically non-existant. I understand what you say about making the game play in a given way. I've been literally years on that road, and to me it was a dead end. I'm tired of having to put a lot of effort to make the game play in a way it's not designed to be played. I don't want to fantasize with tactics because they simply don't count for much. You can play 7-0-3 and you'll have the same chances (if not more) than with a 4-2-3-1. That speaks for itself.

 

[romagnoli]

I'm honestly glad you're finding good stuff (or projecting it into what you see) that has an essence of football Ibra. It's just a crying shame that you are the only person I know across two football game boards who thinks that any such depth exists. Maybe we're all wrong and it isn't a casual title aimed at as many millions of people as possible, but is instead so hardcore that only two or three people in the world 'get' it!

 

[ibra77]

I couldn't possibly reply to all that you've said in that post but I will say this. I'll try to give you a short wise answer that might make you see the light my friend. If your having problems stopping the CPU's outlet passes to your striker, then do something about it! i.e figure out why this doesn't happen in real life, what do players specifically do (tactically and technically) to prevent this from happening, and then learn how to do it in the game (which takes time and lots of trial and error). That my friend is tactics, and it takes a lot of training, organization, and planning to stop these kinds of things in real life, and so to in the game. As you gain experience and learn how to deliberately stop making certain mistakes and deliberately set up a system for things, you start to feel more and more like a real manager. We've been spoiled for too long - this year the game actually forces you to solve problems - and for the most part it gives you the tools to do it but you have to learn how to use those tools. That's what the game offers anyway, and I find it interesting and challenging... and frustrating in a healthy way.

Some of what you said is valid but I hope you can see the validity of my point as far how it is important and relevant to real life football. The example I gave above is just one of many things you have to consider offensively and defensively.

Try this, play two or three games with absolutely nothing on your mind but stopping the forward from receiving passes for counter attacks. You'll probably notice that you've made some progress. Now you know it's possible to do something about it. Then you'll notice your going to need about 10 more games to really get it down right. And then you'll notice that with every game you're improving and making adjustments and sometimes taking a step back. This is what coaches have to go through in real life. That's just one aspect, their hundreds more, different ways of marking different players and different ways to defend different formations. The offense is even more intricate than the defense. It's quite engaging.

 

[drekkard]

The "example" (to use your wrong word, as you don't put any example about anything) you put is not valid.

You may not even know which problem I'm talking about and certainly you don't have a clue about solving it. Show me videos of yourself changing this, because it can't be changed. It's from Fifa 09 that the game is dragging this specific behavior, and it's HARDCODED into how positions must be in certian situation.

There is nothing in the form of tactical option to change this, and of course while I'm with the ball I can't defend the opponent strikers at the same time. I think you simply don't know what I talk about here... you simply repeat a mantra you've made for yourself without any kind of in-depth information.

By the way, I'm talking about human vs human also, so if you haven't enough experience in that field, you may go back to practice until you "master it" and you "see the light", my friend.

 

[nerf]

You maybe don't notice things such as strikers always receiving unmarked in the own half to start a counter. I do and it makes me so nervous I end up quiting the game. This is one of the most stupid things in this series. Having strikers unmarked in the own half makes them bloody easy to pass to start a coutner, which totally destroys ANY kind of tactics.

I think the problem lies more with the nature of clearances and quick response to an aerial pass, rather than marking.

I don't have much of a problem with the way the centre-backs remain safely goal-side rather than tracking a striker who has dropped off deep. If they got tight and the clearance sailed over their heads, one pass and they could be out-sprinted for a chance on goal.

Here CPU Wolves are defending the edge of their penalty area late in the game to protect a single goal lead against me. They have nine behind the ball and their forwards are dropping deep between my midfielders and my centre-backs, ready to help out. Collins can only track Fletcher/Doyle so far, I think.



Obviously the problem comes if I lose the ball. Firstly, like most aerial 'passes' in the game, the clearances are pretty false. Most of the time they tend to be sucked towards people rather than just going randomly anywhere or into touch.

Secondly, imagine this scene from the Tele cam. If the ball is launched to the left edge of the screen I can't see my CB, but the strikers are drawn to the ball instantly. As soon as the ball begins its flight they know where it is going to land and, off-screen, being moving towards it. My CB would be somewhere hidden off-screen to the left and most likely starting to back-pedal. Even if I know where the ball is going to drop, I can't see him, select him or direct him towards it. Plus the clearance tends to drop closer to the striker so they'll probably have a head start anyway.

By this point the striker has already arrived at the exact moment/place where the ball lands on the grass.

Clearances made with the Shoot button need to be more randomised, and if not shanked out for a throw-in (they are sometimes) then they should be launched long into the opposing half, where the defender has the head-start and can gather to restart the attack. Then you'd get a nice delineation between hacking the ball anywhere for safety/relief, and being composed enough to pick out a forward with a deliberate pass to set up a counter. Right now the defending team can hack it anywhere and still end up with the ball.

In the meantime, the way it is presently, as wrong as it is, at least heightens the tension when I'm attacking. I have to take care of the ball and play the safe pass, protect it and be patient, otherwise I know the CPU can counter in an instant. Keeps me on the edge of my seat if nothing else. It's far from a game-breaker in my eyes.

I suppose one could try employing a dedicated anchor man, preferably with a high Reaction attribute. For real-life Barcelona I suspect Sergio Busquets would be just in front of the LS there, ready to intercept any short clearance before a counter could begin.

On another note I also have an example of how sometimes tactics can be worthwhile in this game. Yesterday I played as Villa vs Chelsea. Knowing that Anelka (their RW) has low defensive work-rate, I gave Warnock (my LB) a forward arrow and would look to engineer situations in midfield where my LCM was holding the ball up and waiting for Warnock to start a run. Invariably he would leave Anelka snoozing and I'd have a two-vs-one against Bosingwa down that flank.

 

[drekkard]

Nerf, in these specific situations, I've tried many many things to make my 2 DMFs, for example, to close passing lanes to strikers, but it's impossible. Your DMFS will end up higher than they should be (midfield is "sucked" towards the area if you play too much possession) and opposing strikers would always have those holes to move and receive alone. It's impossible to make my DMFs close those gaps when I attack. The only thing would be to man mark with the DMFS, but I don't want them to man mark when I defend.

Teams pack too much too easily without penalisation to do so. And there are those "holes" in the midfield all the time that are prone to create counterattacks. Teams seem to attack and defend in a boolean way without any mid term, and concentrate in tiny spaces, leaving the whole pitch open to counters.

Specially against a human, almost everytime I recover the ball I could play a perfectly safe pass to a lonely forward who is 10 yards from the halfline, and then start a counter. I have played manual players that based their initial play in this pass. Many of them.To play fair and try the game to look realistic, I have to "ignore" I can do it as I have to "ignore" I can pressure like a whore without getting tired.

When a human does that to you, you can't do a thing, so it means that there is no penalization towards the defending team for having 9 men inside the area. When in reality a team puts 9 men inside the area, there are no passing lanes to play forward and they generally do long punts to the ball that end in the opposition defenders or midfielders feet. That is non-existant in the game, so if you dominate the ball and dominate the pitch, it doesn't matter, you're not rewarded in any way.

Nerf, of course half the problem is that passing is too accurate in general and that "clearances" tend to be long passes, not actual clearances. And mid-range and long passing, specially, is bloody accurate. Add to this the childish instant first touch of all players, and doing this passes to space are too powerful. In reality, this passes aren't that succesful because of:

1) positioning of defenders
2) Doing this pass is hard
3) First touch of oncoming passes is hard and most of the times makes forwards loose a lot of time bringing down the ball, specially in lower leagues.

It's usual to see (vs CPU or humans as well) defenders playing the ball like Barcelona inside the area, breaking any pressure you can do "as a team". Pressure in the game is conceptualized as an individual thing that players execute, but there's no Team awareness of any kind.

So, yes, there's nothing to be done here, it's how the game is deisgned, not how I want it to unfold. And we gamers can't do a thing to change it.

 

[ibra77]

yea, you'll have to give me some time to get back to you with videos. Can't help you with the human vs human though. What you are talking about is quite clear and I'm aware of it.

 

[ibra77]

The late reactions combined with the horrible player switching is definitely problematic. Nerf, what kind of set up do you have there. Are you on ultra offense. I find they CBs stick to the CPU strikers and even front them sometimes on ultra offense, being a goal down that situation seems like it calls for it. At least one of those strikers should be marked. I imagine you'd also have to have high pressure. By the way it must be 8 men behind the ball not 9 as wolves are playing with two strikers. If you push your full backs up that's now an 8 on 8 against an inferior team, possession should really only be lost when the ball goes out of play or inside the box. If it's lost in the middle of the pitch because of a mistake or a risky move or high up the wings then a counter attack is what should happen,that's a realistic consequence. However if you do lose the ball deeper, their should be a way to use a combination of defensive arrows depending on the oppositions formation, secondary pressure, and proper position of the player you are controlling to force a turnover or a clearance. all defensive work rates would have to be high. Anyway this is just scratching the surface as I don't have the game in front of me.

For the sake of this argument I've made forcing wayward and desperate clearances and/or winning the ball back quickly my next task even though that wasn't in my plans.

 

[klashman69]

Fifa 11 on the Xbox is easily the best football game ever. Offline, online it plays fantastic and is very realistic. Of course, there are tweaks that could improve the game but they are minor and don't spoil my enjoyment of the game.

Personally, I want a game that takes months(6-9)to master and has a slow but steady learning curve. If you put the time in you will be rewarded and that's how it should be.

If the people who have slated the game, after such a short time, put as much effort into learning how to play it rather than trying to make clever comments they might have a bit more fun while playing.

IMO if you try hard enough, you can pull off rewarding periods of play that lead to great, realistic moves and goals. The ones you sit back and smile at when you watch the replays.

I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears and the moaners will say they are trying to create a better game, but if they can not see how great the game already is, I don't trust their judgement or suggestions on how it could be better and hope EA take no notice of them.

Stop moaning and enjoy the game: Its great.

Sup, David Rutter! hows life man? FIFA 11 roaring success i hear commercially!

Keep up the good work man

anyway, i see after not posting here for months people are still moaning about the same issues we been banging our heads against the wall since FIFA 09.

Don't really know what to say really, i mean what else is there to say that hasan't been said already

@ ibra77

Spoiler

said this before, that i think your at a mindset almost like we were maybe with FIFA 08 or maybe FIFA 09 until i realized it was a pure arcade game in it's entirety.

You said about (Holding x vs the CPU on legendary is suicide) It dosen't work at all unless you set pressure to 100, and aggression also to 100. Then it works too well, no matter who you play. Thats why i say tactically the game is shit because it's lob sided so one tactic is effective against anyone, no matter your players. Same with every other aspect of the game.

Also the whole 15 minute match thing, I tired this in a Manager mode season with i think with Leria of Portugal,. I see the principle, but it falls down again from the fact how tactics are so lob sided so there isn't a need to spend that long on them! The CPU in typical fashion don't set up their tactics to counter yours, just play the same predictable way. The last game i played was Dortmund vs Manchester United, i had little trouble beating them 1-0, but with Robert Ledanowski in goal (striker) and a load of random reserves at the back, and in midfield for fun.

Just try not to forget it's not that we can't handle FIFA 11 because for many of use it's pretty much the same shit we have been eating up since 09 it's we don't like how we win, or how the game is set out!

 

[WEtongelre]

Why is EA not releasing a patch with new balls and boots?

 

[Placebo]

Because you've bought the game. Same answer applies to why aren't they patching all the other bugs/glitches/exploits in both the console and PC versions.

 

[gomito#10]

Because you've bought the game. Same answer applies to why aren't they patching all the other bugs/glitches/exploits in both the console and PC versions.

i would agree with you but how do you explain the fact they release patches and updates for madden and nhl on a regular basis?

 

[Placebo]

Perhaps those games aren't as much of a cash cow so they have to keep their fans sweet? Or maybe those who develop Madden/NHL don't hold their consumers in such blatant contempt as the devs of Fifa really seem to.