Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

Not as palpable as EA's contempt for we the Fifa buying public, release a patch which fixes next to nothing, loads of issues left and they just go back into hiding, ignore all questions about the remaining bugs/issues, only thing they ever post about is promoting UT, pathetic.
 
They are wankers.

But I am enjoying UT offline at the moment. But I know when I have completed all the offline cups I will get frustrated by online and never play it again.

UT is a great concept though, they could do really great things with it.....but you know they won't.
 
For me the two major issues that need fixing are the effectiveness of the pressure button and the lack of skill required in tackling.

The more and more I think of it the more I think that a 'realism mode' needs to be added. This is the only conclusion I can come up with to satisfy the hardcore gamer, the casual gamer, anyone in between and without having an adverse effect on EA's sales.

I actually enjoy playing the game offline and I get decent challenge of the AI but still manage to win most games. Online is a different story, the worst aspect is the fact that players insist on pressuring you constantly!! At first I thought I could live with it but after a few games you realise that unless you do the same you are at a massive disadvantage. In some games I've decided to give them 'a taste of their own medicine' but it's just not enjoyable and it's far from realistic.

Tackling is so easy too and it just ruins what could and should be a great game. Apart from the odd sliding tackle, tackling does not feel rewarding one bit. I honestly believe that a blind man would be successful at tackling on FIFA 11. Half the time you don't even have to aim or time the tackle, this really couldn't be any further away from being realistic. I'm actually at a loss as to how EA could make tackling any easier.

Already covered but the fact that tackling is so easy makes the game unbalanced. That's why people end up with 60/40% possession (almost) every game. Nerf & I commented on the fact that we don't use pressure until the opposition is into our final third but the more I think about the more it's bollocks. Why should we have to do that?

Don't get me wrong I love some of the football I/you can play and some of the goals I've scored have felt more rewarding than ever before. I just don't understand how EA can fuck certain aspects of the game up so much.

Time for a realism mode for the hardcore players which is to include full manual controls, tackling that requires timing/aiming, tricks to be at a minimum, limited pressure, foot planting, inertia... the list goes on.
 
The worse of it all is we're saying the same we said about fifa 10, so no, I don't have any hope for this franchise anymore. Specially having other great games that really put this one to shame in so many departments.
 
EA are a joke, although that's being unfair to the other EA Sports studios that deliver quality games and post release service like NHL and NCAA Football.

I won't be holding my breath for a "realism mode" any longer than I will be for a decent manager mode.

Unless EA makes some substantial additions/improvements to both gameplay and CM, or unless PES somehow backtracks, my adventures with the dark side might be over. It's just not worth it. Fuck EA.
 
The most frustrating part of it all is how well some things are implemented, most notably the manual controls.

It's like they only understand certain aspects of football. IRL Tackling is an art form but on FIFA any form of button mashing is effective. Button mashing/miss-timing should result in a foul or the defender being off balance (being disadvantaged) 9 times out of 10.

The tackling system in 11 is the worst (I can remember) in any footy title.

To be honest I haven't been on the EA FIFA forums since the game was released. Are the same issues being raised on that site?

Medal of Honor is getting a workout at the min but like a junkie I need a footy fix. The novelty of FIFA 11 is wearing off! I've tried PES 2011 and it's just not for me. I can understand why people like it but personally its just not for me, it does some things well but it does too many other things (to mention) badly. :(
 
Robo1979 said:
The most frustrating part of it all is how well some things are implemented, most notably the manual controls.

It's like they only understand certain aspects of football. IRL Tackling is an art form but on FIFA any form of button mashing is effective. Button mashing/miss-timing should result in a foul or the defender being off balance (being disadvantaged) 9 times out of 10.

The tackling system in 11 is the worst (I can remember) in any footy title.

To be honest I haven't been on the EA FIFA forums since the game was released. Are the same issues being raised on that site?

Medal of Honor is getting a workout at the min but like a junkie I need a footy fix. The novelty of FIFA 11 is wearing off! I've tried PES 2011 and it's just not for me. I can understand why people like it but personally its just not for me, it does some things well but it does too many other things (to mention) badly. :(
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To be fair to the FIFA forums, people do seem to be more outraged at both EA and FIFA 11 than in the past. And yes, the pathetically simple and overpowered defensive system is a hot topic, and it is not going completely unnoticed how unbalanced and unrealistic gameplay is right now. While CM is constantly ridiculed, deservingly so, for being poor, shallow, and arguably broken.

It will always be guesswork trying to figure how representative the forums are of FIFA's larger customer population but some things are obvious and you would think might have larger implications: 1) Discontent is at its highest since I started visiting the forums for FIFA 08; 2) The "hardcore" - from us here at evo-web to even the more FIFA fanboy GCs - are largely absent from the official forums; 3) The fanboys, usually out in force on the FIFA forums, are relatively quiet.

Regardless of my feelings toward EA at the moment, one thing I'm sure of is that Rutter et al are not complete idiots. They must know what's going on. They must know the issues with the game. I have little faith in EA at the moment but if they do choose to go big with FIFA 12, from CM to proper gameplay fixes, there is still a top-quality football game to be delivered by this crew with this engine.
 
mfmaxpower said:
To be fair to the FIFA forums, people do seem to be more outraged at both EA and FIFA 11 than in the past. And yes, the pathetically simple and overpowered defensive system is a hot topic, and it is not going completely unnoticed how unbalanced and unrealistic gameplay is right now. While CM is constantly ridiculed, deservingly so, for being poor, shallow, and arguably broken.

It will always be guesswork trying to figure how representative the forums are of FIFA's larger customer population but some things are obvious and you would think might have larger implications: 1) Discontent is at its highest since I started visiting the forums for FIFA 08; 2) The "hardcore" - from us here at evo-web to even the more FIFA fanboy GCs - are largely absent from the official forums; 3) The fanboys, usually out in force on the FIFA forums, are relatively quiet.

Regardless of my feelings toward EA at the moment, one thing I'm sure of is that Rutter et al are not complete idiots. They must know what's going on. They must know the issues with the game. I have little faith in EA at the moment but if they do choose to go big with FIFA 12, from CM to proper gameplay fixes, there is still a top-quality football game to be delivered by this crew with this engine.
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I can certainly understand why people are outraged, gameplay aside, the lack of communication has to be a major factor. As I said I haven't been on the EA forum (as my work blocks the new website) but I can tell from the comments on here that EA's communication is severely lacking.

Surely this has to have an effect on consumer confidence? In saying that, as you say, if they release a FIFA 12 demo that fixes the current major issues all will be forgotten. I just don't understand why any of the issues can't be fixed via a patch. Well I do, they fix the issues add some more polish and call it FIFA 12.

Hopefully the activity, or lack of, will speak volumes to EA. I just can't be arsed wasting my time telling them what I want anymore. I harped on for the best part of 6 months about how bad the tackling system was in FIFA 10 and now it's worse!!! What's the point!!!!

I and most on this website want realism but if you look at what sells it appears that the majority of gamers just want fun. Look at Black Ops for example, it couldn't be any further away from being realistic. A war game that requires hardly any tactics! It just seems that games these days are aimed at 13 year old children who want games to be 'pick up and play' without having to go through any learning curve. This is why (for me) modes need to be added to keep everyone happy.
 
I can understand why people get a bit frustrated on this game. I played as aresenal v aldershot on WC level manual and it felt no different to playing Tottenham the game before. They were playing great football, step overs, perfect crosses etc.. EA just need to make stats matter a lot more

IMO its still the most enjoyable football game this year. 2 player full manual is really good.
 
mfmaxpower said:
EA are a joke, although that's being unfair to the other EA Sports studios that deliver quality games and post release service like NHL and NCAA Football.

I won't be holding my breath for a "realism mode" any longer than I will be for a decent manager mode.

Unless EA makes some substantial additions/improvements to both gameplay and CM, or unless PES somehow backtracks, my adventures with the dark side might be over. It's just not worth it. Fuck EA.
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Yeah EA have actually made some really decent sports games, way better than they are doing at replicating how football is played. They're even offering far better support for other games, such as Battlefield Bad Company 2 which has had loads of patches (including a 1.7 gig patch followed by free map packs just this week, which is awesome).

It's all the more bizarre then that they seem to be content with the shocking disregard for their customers that they show with FIFA, arguably one of their biggest franchises in their locker.

As for the game itself, I don't blame EA on a whole, but the development company involved are really taking things backwards in my opinion. FIFA 08 and 09 gave themselves such a great foundation and somehow they're making the game worse as time goes on. I keep saying it, but the way the AI, and opposing players online, can spam you with endless pressure, rugby tackle you in herds of 3-4 players at a time just goes to show that the rest of the game mechanics simply don't lend themselves to this type of play, yet year after year, despite everyone complaining about the same thing again and again, EA do nothing to fix it. If anything they've made it easier to tackle, which is why the offline game this year is a boring stalemate of 70% domination in your favour, with both teams finding it far too easy to defend.

Sure, they claim they'd fixed ping pong passing with Pro Passing, but all this does is in effect play into the hands of pressure whores who just hold x and square all day long. Even the AI seems to have been programmed to play like people do online. It's really bizarre thinking from whoever designs these games.

I feel that the main problem with the game is that the players have no sense of inertia, no consequence to moving in a particular direction. You can move your players at incredible speeds and in completely conflicting directions with no hesitation whatsoever, making the game far too quick. Add to that the slower passing mechanics, and you have players all over the park with overpowered turning, sprinting, acceleration and stamina, and the ball travelling generally at a much slower speed. The result? Huddles of players constantly on top of each other, pressuring (don't get me started on the 'jostling' rugby tackling - all it does is offer the AI a cheap excuse to dominate you physically and is a cheap way of 'simulating' higher difficulty levels) and a constant turnover of possession. Yet all of these problems didn't exist in the technically 'inferior' FIFA 08 and 09. Odd that.
 
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LTFC said:
I feel that the main problem with the game is that the players have no sense of inertia, no consequence to moving in a particular direction. You can move your players at incredible speeds and in completely conflicting directions with no hesitation whatsoever, making the game far too quick. Add to that the slower passing mechanics, and you have players all over the park with overpowered turning, sprinting, acceleration and stamina, and the ball travelling generally at a much slower speed. The result? Huddles of players constantly on top of each other, pressuring (don't get me started on the 'jostling' rugby tackling - all it does is offer the AI a cheap excuse to dominate you physically and is a cheap way of 'simulating' higher difficulty levels) and a constant turnover of possession. Yet all of these problems didn't exist in the technically 'inferior' FIFA 08 and 09. Odd that.
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ABSOLUTELY!!! If it's not the #1 issue then it's close. If you combine poor foot-planting and bad tackling and jockeying animations with the general lack of inertia, surely it's fair to say unrealistic player movement is up there as a major reason for why FIFA 11 plays so unlike a real match of football.

It's funny because after playing FIFA these last few years, I didn't know if i could get back into PES because, most of all, FIFA is so much further advanced purely from a technical standpoint. Simple issues, like ball physics, referees, player awareness, and other things that largely were eliminated from EA's game since 08, still keep me from considering PES 2011 a great game. However, when I last tried to play a match of FIFA I didn't make it beyond a few minutes into the second half!

After playing primarily PES the last couple weeks, for the first time I fully understood why some people like to criticize FIFA as being too similar to NHL. I play on Slow setting and man was the game fast - it's like PES at the +2 setting! And the sliding and players falling all over the place... it felt like playing a bad joke if that makes any sense at all.

To be perfectly honest, I'm desperately hoping at least one of these games really steps it up for next year because right now I find neither all that satisfying and ML is the only reason I'm still bothering at the moment. (Not that Konami didn't step it up for this year - they surely did - but they're just now releasing what should have been PES 2008.) If Konami has another similar good year in development and if - and that's a massive IF - EA pulls their heads out their asses, there's still a chance we could have two solid if not great games next year.
 
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I'm thinking exactly the same way at the moment, but I'm definitely preferring PES right now. I get the feeling that PES will really improve each year, this is the first in a new cycle of games given such a big leap forward 2011 was over last year's game. I get the feeling issues with the game will become more refined, whereas FIFA seems to ignore the most basic of problems with their game. Changing things like we've discussed would take a LOT of changes in-game, from animation, to physics and those in relation to how the ball moves. That's the problem this year. The ball physics have changed, become more precise (allegedly) and definitely slower, however the players are still just as quick. The two don't go together.

I also don't understand why EA ignore issues such as stamina. It causes no difference to the game whatsoever. I even remember the World Cup game being advertised as having altitude play a huge part on player stamina, so if you were a European player playing in Peru, then their stamina would be all over the place. It was a major selling point of the game, yet when I played it, stamina worked exactly the same as ever. Okay, maybe it diminished slightly quicker at high altitude, but you could still sprint around non-stop, it didn't affect the game whatsoever.

This extends to FIFA11, where major gameplay 'overhauls' such as Pro Passing, and Personality Plus, again haven't really affected the game at all. Online is still the same as ever. Offline too. I mean personality plus does nothing in my eyes except make the odd player either better (and by better, I mean quicker) at dribbling, or it will make defenders be able to plough through the opposition if needed. Passing is the same, players like Xavi are useless again, you may as well stick in Gary Neville in the middle of midfield and he'd still run the midfield by spraying passes around just as if Xavi would. For all the gimmicks EA provide, for me the fundamentals of the game that seemed so promising in FIFA09 just seem broken. But that's just me, and my opinion, other people love the game and fair play to them for that. I wish I'd be getting more enjoyment out of it than I am.

FIFA on the other hand just doesn't inspire any confidence that they're stepping in the right direction. They're just plugging gimmick after gimmick, which is fine for pick up and play gamers, but it's not what I want from a football game any more.

It's a shame, I thought after 09 that FIFA was going to become the no.1 game and make huge strides forward, alas EA seem content to keep the no.1 spot in terms of sales, and take very few risks with game development for fear of losing some of the fan base they've already established. I see more and more people becoming discontent with FIFA as each edition comes and goes, yet the sales keep going up and up.
 
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EA/FIFA have played it brilliantly, they did enough to win the fanbase over with 08, steadily improve it till 10' which means even people who think PES is potentially better not enough to go back as they already "know how to play FIFA"
 
The more and more I think about it the more I feel the game is being developed for kids.

EA introduced the 'Dad pad' settings on FIFA WC which made the game more accessible to kids who probably don't fully understand football. Then FIFA 11 comes along and the tackling system has been simplified. What next?

Its obvious to me that EA are trying to make the game more accessible to as many gamers as possible. The problem is in doing this they have lost sight of their hardcore gamers.

I played a few games today offline and I still enjoy the game. It just annoys me how easy it is to tackle. Half the time you don't even need to press a button! All you need to do is just get close to the opponent and the AI makes the tackle for you.
 
For me, Fifa 11 is a good game on the pitch but as a game is totally ruined by the quitting mentality of the Fifa community at large which frankly renders the game completely pointless. I'm surprised EA have done nothing to combat this.

PES on the other hand this year is a much better game online as they've combated the quitting and the community is much better for it. But my big criticism of PES is defensive response is absolutely shocking in the penalty area.

Both good football games on the pitch, both with major frustrations online. One rendered totally pointless by theirs. One still extremely enjoyable if anger inducing at times.

I don't know how people can say Fifa is the better game online when it's full of quitters. I'm not having that! Every match you're winning they quit out of. What is the point in even playing the game people ??
 
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Robo1979 said:
The more and more I think about it the more I feel the game is being developed for kids.

EA introduced the 'Dad pad' settings on FIFA WC which made the game more accessible to kids who probably don't fully understand football. Then FIFA 11 comes along and the tackling system has been simplified. What next?

Its obvious to me that EA are trying to make the game more accessible to as many gamers as possible. The problem is in doing this they have lost sight of their hardcore gamers.

I played a few games today offline and I still enjoy the game. It just annoys me how easy it is to tackle. Half the time you don't even need to press a button! All you need to do is just get close to the opponent and the AI makes the tackle for you.
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Totally agree. While it's a good thing that they're trying to introduce more people to the game, it is however completely to the detriment of hardcore gamers who want a decent sim to play. And tackling is my no.1 annoyance with this game. You can tackle far too easily, the AI hounds you off the ball with packs of bionic defenders chasing you like they have heat seeking visors or something, and it makes every game a chore to play through. Defences rule.

I know PES is far from perfect, especially with the through ball issues, but I'm really liking the direction Konami are taking with defending in terms of jockeying, then moving the stick away to hold position/block, or push the stick towards and put your foot in to tackle. Combining the two, it becomes important to decide when to hold the man up, and when to hold him up and then time your tackle.

In FIFA, you can just hold the button down and take the ball. There's no real decision making involved, as can be seen when you take the game online and find that people can dominate you by simply holding down a button and doing little else.
 
Placebo said:
Not as palpable as EA's contempt for we the Fifa buying public, release a patch which fixes next to nothing, loads of issues left and they just go back into hiding, ignore all questions about the remaining bugs/issues, only thing they ever post about is promoting UT, pathetic.
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Same thing happened in FIFA 10, FIFA 09, FIFA 08, you'd think people would learn by now.

This is like 50% of the reason why I didnt buy FIFA 11, because EA just take the money and run and fix bugger all issues!
 
thommohawk said:
I don't know how people can say Fifa is the better game online when it's full of quitters. I'm not having that! Every match you're winning they quit out of. What is the point in even playing the game people ??
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I can easily say that as I only play within a community and I play All Manual. Pisses over PES for me especially when my opponent plays All Manual too. We have a little league going as most over there are still assisted pussies (who think they (not them AND the AI) are good at the game) so I avoid those leagues like the plague.

I need to find more random manual players though as when searching lately I'm not finding games anymore. Never had a problem a little while back.

I gave PES a good go (and I used to love it) but it's still not there for me. At least in FIFA you can force your opponents to play Manual. I say force but they've agreed to it first within the community. In PES, there are patches in the game that are more pingpongy than assisted FIFA. I said patches! Not overall, but it's still not quite right for me.

Assisted FIFA is complete and utter shit but All Manual, after a little while is where it's at for me. Had some great games so far.
 
ive gone back to pes now as of this week. I must admit fifa is good when u can find 2 manual players but as a single player game its pretty drab and boring. All the teams play alike no matter what division. As an example and I think the final straw was watching Aldershot playing as good as Brazil, performing perfect passes, step overs and perfect crosses. Just bugged the life out of me.

I must say that yes PES has its flaws, fewer animations etc etc but it definately has a charm and plays a solid game of football plus there is none of this just running at players to take the ball, another big annoyance.

Also the other day i played 2.5 hours single player straight through i dont thnink ive ever lasted an hour on FIFA 11 it just gets too repetative. Play the ball wide and cross it in. All in my oppinion
 
Give credit where it's due, UT was a genius idea by someone at EA. It'll be interesting to see what UT 11 pulls in with its additional six months. You think instead of stock options EA offers the FIFA devs UT options?!

Maybe we'll get lucky and EA will put that UT pack $ to good use. Like, say, hire a couple more CM devs.

I hate to say it but if UT is an indication of where gaming is going - does anyone think it isn't? - then maybe EA need to find some creative way(s) to make additional money off of CM. I despise the idea of it based on principle but I'm also a realist, and if a little extra money gets me a decent CM, then so be it.

A couple ideas: 1) CM as paid DLC; 2) Micro transactions from transfer market activity; 3) Purchase additional leagues; 4) Purchase additional editing options, like 3rd kits, boots, etc.

Again, it pisses me off to no end that EA can't (won't?) provide a decent manager mode like ML, especially when FIFA has more money, more resources, and more years behind the series than Konami (I might be wrong on that last one but just run with it), but if I'm going to continue playing FIFA (which right now is a BIG *if*) then I'm going to require a decent CM.

On a similar note, although I'm not much of an online FIFA player it sounds like some B.S. that EA are now bringing in extra cash with its online pass but online issues remain a huge problem for people. Maybe they should start charging for Clubs!

Oh, and what about Creation Center? Maybe give us some decent options, charge a few cents per downloaded player, and BAM! Cha-ching!
 
PU6HY said:
I can easily say that as I only play within a community and I play All Manual. Pisses over PES for me especially when my opponent plays All Manual too. We have a little league going as most over there are still assisted pussies (who think they (not them AND the AI) are good at the game) so I avoid those leagues like the plague.

I need to find more random manual players though as when searching lately I'm not finding games anymore. Never had a problem a little while back.

I gave PES a good go (and I used to love it) but it's still not there for me. At least in FIFA you can force your opponents to play Manual. I say force but they've agreed to it first within the community. In PES, there are patches in the game that are more pingpongy than assisted FIFA. I said patches! Not overall, but it's still not quite right for me.

Assisted FIFA is complete and utter shit but All Manual, after a little while is where it's at for me. Had some great games so far.
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I agree that playing FIFA against fellow manual players is the best way to play the game.

When you have two players playing realistically, working the ball around trying to create chances (without 100% pressure) it's great. In saying that it still doesn't take away the fact that tackling is too easy.

The tackling (not the animations) in PES 6 was much better than FIFA 11. You actually had to time the press of the button to win the ball whereas FIFA all you have to do is run close to the opponent and the AI does the rest for you.

Making a tackle has hardly ever felt rewarding.
 
mfmaxpower said:
Give credit where it's due, UT was a genius idea by someone at EA. It'll be interesting to see what UT 11 pulls in with its additional six months. You think instead of stock options EA offers the FIFA devs UT options?!

Maybe we'll get lucky and EA will put that UT pack $ to good use. Like, say, hire a couple more CM devs.

I hate to say it but if UT is an indication of where gaming is going - does anyone think it isn't? - then maybe EA need to find some creative way(s) to make additional money off of CM. I despise the idea of it based on principle but I'm also a realist, and if a little extra money gets me a decent CM, then so be it.

A couple ideas: 1) CM as paid DLC; 2) Micro transactions from transfer market activity; 3) Purchase additional leagues; 4) Purchase additional editing options, like 3rd kits, boots, etc.

Again, it pisses me off to no end that EA can't (won't?) provide a decent manager mode like ML, especially when FIFA has more money, more resources, and more years behind the series than Konami (I might be wrong on that last one but just run with it), but if I'm going to continue playing FIFA (which right now is a BIG *if*) then I'm going to require a decent CM.

On a similar note, although I'm not much of an online FIFA player it sounds like some B.S. that EA are now bringing in extra cash with its online pass but online issues remain a huge problem for people. Maybe they should start charging for Clubs!

Oh, and what about Creation Center? Maybe give us some decent options, charge a few cents per downloaded player, and BAM! Cha-ching!
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Although UT was a good idea when it was first released I soon figured out that it was a better idea for EA's bank balance than is was for me. Just like everything with EA it's all about $.

Personally I'd prefer to build my team up from scratch and have it so the ONLY way to buy players is to win matches. I don't even know why I'm commenting on this anyway as people who play UT online don't really use manual settings... so I wouldn't want to play them anyway.

Yeah you're a bit off the mark with the online pass thing. Basically when you buy the game brand new you get the code f.o.c or included in the amount you paid for the game (whichever way you want to look at it). If you trade it in and someone buys your old copy that online pass code won't work for them (as you've used it). They then have to pay to purchase a pass. EA are just trying to make people buy a brand new copy rather than preowned.

I would definitely pay for CM online (all manual). That's something EA have to make happen. The online WC was a good idea but again spoilt (for me) by not having some sort of manual lobby.
 
Maybe I'm still off the mark but I was thinking that EA would be earning money that they wouldn't have before from used purchases by making those buyers pay to play online. So you're making money off the full retail price plus the used purchaser's online pass whereas before EA only saw money from the retail purchase before. Am I wrong?

But yeah, I agree that UT isn't genius from our perspective but it's great for EA - like much of the game, UT has massive potential but the top brass at EA are not interested in investing the resources necessary to maximize that potential in any way that doesn't maximize profits.
 
can you guys settle something

If i put a match on 10 minutes halves is it slower than one with 6 minute halves. It feels that way but when my friend asked me to explain if it was true or not and if so then why i couldn't really explain why except that it just feels slower. Perhaps that the defensive AI messes up less thus leading to less chances and therefore less goals but this was my only point really and i've thought this since Fifa 09.

So is it slower the longer the half length or is it a placebo effect?
 
Northzzz said:
can you guys settle something

If i put a match on 10 minutes halves is it slower than one with 6 minute halves. It feels that way but when my friend asked me to explain if it was true or not and if so then why i couldn't really explain why except that it just feels slower. Perhaps that the defensive AI messes up less thus leading to less chances and therefore less goals but this was my only point really and i've thought this since Fifa 09.

So is it slower the longer the half length or is it a placebo effect?
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I don't know the answer but i know what you mean. Saying it's "slower" may not be the best way to say it though because adjusting the length of halves does not effect gameplay the same way that changing the actual game speed does; players do not move faster, etc. (right?).

So what does change, if anything? I imagine some things are tweaked, like what you mentioned, because i've played FIFA on 4 minutes and on 10 minutes and I haven't found that goals per match are all that different.

So what is the difference?
 
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