Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

[Jimmy G-Force]

The problem Rod, is that there isnt one. EA have the fastest selling sports video game ever. They have the media in their pocket, and the corporate cats grow fatter by the day.There is nothing wrong with this picture. The milking will continue until the day it turns sour. Then they might listen.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

The patch doesn't make any changes to gameplay. It's very fundamental stuff - changing even little things has permutations and consequences across the entire feel of the game (that's why creating the closest - and fun, importantly - simulation of non-stop football on the pitch is widely regarded as the most difficult thing to do in any game, period). So it's not something that can be looked at in a patch.

Maybe I'm missing something but is he saying that gameplay changes "can't" be done in a patch because of all the effects small changes make? So essentially saying; "we need to test it the whole year / 6 months / whatever to make sure it doesn't break the game".

If so, then what is the point of the new update system? If they are only going to change gameplay maybe once during a games lifespan what is the point of harping on about a new gameplay update system...(I don't think I need to state the obvious).

 

[mfmaxpower]

The problem Rod, is that there isnt one. EA have the fastest selling sports video game ever. They have the media in their pocket, and the corporate cats grow fatter by the day.There is nothing wrong with this picture. The milking will continue until the day it turns sour. Then they might listen.

Yep. EA will change only when they need to change. No need to rock the boat, etc.

You could argue, though, that it's good business to recognize early warning signs of danger. Today's success and profits do not necessarily equal tomorrow's success and profits. So you could say that EA should heed the growing discontent among its fanbase, as well as find cause for concern in an apparent problem with quality control, what with all the bugs and issues this year.

EA Canada recently lost its NBA franchise, after it being canceled this year and totally outdone by 2K's game. I forget which studio it moved it to and I'm not familiar with the particulars of that story but I guess I'm hoping it backs my point. In any case, as Jimmy said FIFA is EA's fastest selling sports game, and it's EA's biggest cash cow, so you'd think they'd be a little more careful ensuring the quality of its product as well as the satisfaction of its customers. Say what you will about the forums representing only a minuscule fraction of its sales but there is a definite downward trend in the tone of the forums and that can't be a good sign.

I agree there's little need for EA to change to satisfy us hardcore fans, but right now some would say a bigger issue is with quality control. The story of MM/CM says it all really - a working and solid mode, even if shallow by PES standards, in 08; a growing number of bugs and issues through 09-10; then a scrapping and rebuilding of the mode this year that leads to... an even more shallow and bug-filled CM.

Like I said, it would only be smart business practice to consider not this past year's profits but the profit potential in three years. And remember, when it comes to business it's not enough to maintain current profit numbers but investors want to see increasing returns. Might there be enough warning signs in FIFA 11 that should have EA worried? Maybe, maybe not. You'd like to think so at least.

That will teach me to post on a friday night after a few beers

You are right. I guess you guys don't get to see it but I am really pissed off with this years game. Begged for the second press pressure and accuracy to be turned down to almost 0 and stressed that defending should be a skill akin to attacking.

I appreciate they did work on making dead balls more threatening (more direct and attacking movement) but its still not enough.

For the last 2 years I have been very vocal at EA about adding physicality (not pressure but physicality) to the game and its slowly getting there but after last years promises and being hung out to dry with fifa 10 this year I have not been on the hype train.

EA are screwing themselves with the way they wax lyrical and then bang nothing but bugs or issues.

Big on you for that. I know what you mean though - sometimes we all get a little too worked up than maybe we should, and in the end it's a game and should be fun. I guess for some of us, getting worked up about it is part of the ride!

 

[mfmaxpower]

Just posted this in the CM thread (regarding Simon Humber taking over as offline mode director) but I wanted to post this in here too because there's some GCs here who may miss it otherwise, and I'd like to hear their thoughts.

I'm starting to think these GC forums may be doing both the GCs and the rest of us a disservice by removing important leaders and their opinions from the regular forums, while also contributing to this criticism of the GCs as EA "apologists."

I ain't mad at ya, but I'm not sure it's helping the current state of things.

Were are in touch with him on the GC forum, he's asked us for ideas and input so it's good to know he's open to new ideas, we have naturally bombarded the poor sod...

That's great to hear. If nothing else he did a fantastic job keeping in touch with the community during the WC game's development, while I actually think gameplay wise that game is overall still probably the best to date.

I have to say, though, I'm getting a little resentful of these GC forums. Basically you few get access to the devs and intelligent, constructive, and mature discussion (I assume) while the rest of us are stuck with the chaotic official forums and all too infrequent and curt dev updates. Sorry but, wtf?

 

[romagnoli]

The problem for me is that there isn't a suggestions area. That's where I used to hang out. I can't deal with the standard FIFA 10/11 forums. To my mind the only purpose they serve is as a means of reducing the number of shit posts in the proper areas.

Apparently there will be a suggestions thread but not until things have died down from the patch etc. I had to post my dropbox idea in the main thread and it falls off the front page of the forum in a few minutes; as such I can't bloody wait.

 

[Placebo]

but not until things have died down from the patch etc.

They should try releasing a patch that actually works and fixes the numerous bugs the game has then. If I was a supporter of an SPL team I'd be livid they still haven't fixed the split bug.

 

[Jamezinho]

Like I said, it would only be smart business practice to consider not this past year's profits but the profit potential in three years. And remember, when it comes to business it's not enough to maintain current profit numbers but investors want to see increasing returns. Might there be enough warning signs in FIFA 11 that should have EA worried? Maybe, maybe not. You'd like to think so at least.

If creating the fastest selling sports game of all time isn't smart business practice then I don't know what is. It's all about money and Fifa is making plenty of it. EA always have and always will be a business first, second and third. That's how they've got to where they are.

I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of Fifa players are satisfied with the experience they get from Fifa 11 and the previous two or three instalments. Sorry to reiterate the point but it's the crux of the issue - all the Fifa fans ranting and raving on various forums (even if their numbers are growing) still represent a tiny minority of the customer base - and the minority are effectively trying to change a mass-market, casual-orientated product towards hardcore tastes.

That's not going to happen while Fifa is selling in record numbers.

 

[mfmaxpower]

If creating the fastest selling sports game of all time isn't smart business practice then I don't know what is. It's all about money and Fifa is making plenty of it. EA always have and always will be a business first, second and third. That's how they've got to where they are.

I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of Fifa players are satisfied with the experience they get from Fifa 11 and the previous two or three instalments. Sorry to reiterate the point but it's the crux of the issue - all the Fifa fans ranting and raving on various forums (even if their numbers are growing) still represent a tiny minority of the customer base - and the minority are effectively trying to change a mass-market, casual-orientated product towards hardcore tastes.

That's not going to happen while Fifa is selling in record numbers.

Let's see, combine most of the official licenses, the world's most popular sport, plus EA's massive resources... of course they have the fastest selling sports game. Not that big a surprise really.

Don't be so quick to forget that prior to FIFA 08 the game was considered a joke by both mainstream reviewers and knowledgeable football fans. FIFA survived at the time on its licenses, nice visuals, and arcade gameplay. From what I understand, FIFA's insane success over the last couple years came about because of a change in personnel, a change in philosophy, and an overall concerted effort to take the game to the "next" level.

It's been mentioned here before but it wasn't until 08 that in some Euro markets FIFA surpassed PES in sales. There is no guarantee the opposite cannot happen. And like I said in my previous post, it's not just about real sales numbers, it's about increasing sales.

I'm not saying EA will react. I'm saying if they want to maintain their lead over the competition then they it would behoove them to listen to their fanbase. I don't care if the forums are a small minority, they are a decent sample size of their consumer base. What, you think those who don't visit the forums don't notice that players do not grow in CM? Or that CM is a weak manager mode overall? Or that there are connection problems with online and clubs? Or that there's widespread exploitation of a glitch in UT that allows anyone to take over and control their opponents team?

FIFA 12 will sell like hotcakes. FIFA 13 will probably too. But if EA don't correct their quality control issues, people will react at some point, especially if Konami keep improving. The repercussion in the end may not be decreasing sales, it may be someone's job. My point is any good business is both quick to notice cracks in its foundation and quick to react.

The problem for me is that there isn't a suggestions area. That's where I used to hang out. I can't deal with the standard FIFA 10/11 forums. To my mind the only purpose they serve is as a means of reducing the number of shit posts in the proper areas.

Apparently there will be a suggestions thread but not until things have died down from the patch etc. I had to post my dropbox idea in the main thread and it falls off the front page of the forum in a few minutes; as such I can't bloody wait.

Yeah, why the hell isn't there a feedback forum anymore? It only provides more fuel to the argument that EA aren't interested in customer feedback.

 

[Jamezinho]

FIFA 12 will sell like hotcakes. FIFA 13 will probably too. But if EA don't correct their quality control issues, people will react at some point, especially if Konami keep improving. The repercussion in the end may not be decreasing sales, it may be someone's job. My point is any good business is both quick to notice cracks in its foundation and quick to react.

And what should we care if Fifa is surpassed by PES? Then we play PES, after all that's why the majority of us joined this site, right? If EA let things slip they only have themselves to blame. We've told them what we want and they've largely ignored us. Why waste so much energy on a company that pretends to listen. Perhaps more effort should be aimed at John Murphy and the PES team as they do seem to be much more community focused now and open to fan feedback.

 

[nerf]

They do listen to some consumer feedback. I almost felt like I'd put words in Aaron McHardy's mouth at one point, coincidental illusion or not. There's been some changes between 09, 10 and 11 that derived from feedback we provided... just not as much as we'd like. What's Konami's track record like on this?

Hopefully the appointment of a Creative Director for CM is a sign that they want to review their processes. Too much of what turns up in FIFA smacks of 'tick a box' development, where a programmer completes a task to meet a technical specification without the work receiving any love before the title ships.

Technically 10 had Player Form, but did it work or was it fun? Nope. Technically 11 has Player Growth, but does it work or is it fun? No. This story repeats itself throughout. Handballs. Post-match highlights. Replay Theatre. Staff Upgrades. Be A Pro. They've all been 'In The Game' only to the extent that they've existed. Compare, for example, how much love, care and polish NBA2K11's stylish highlights received to the state of FIFA's functional/token highlights.

This and the shoddy QA standards are symptomatic of a lack of design principles, either through tight deadlines not allowing time to be set aside for essential polish, or through not employing people in roles responsible for creative guidance in the first place. That's how you end up suspending an entire basketball franchise for a year, so maybe they know that.

 

[klashman69]

All i see in this thread is people angry at EA about the state of this game, makes me wonder why i use to, and why everyone else's bends over backwards to try and give EA ideas they won't use.

Mainly because they don't need to use our idea's. Just pay off reviewers to write glowing reviews, market the game everywhere extensiley! and no matter how mindnumbilbilgy repetertive and shit the gameplay is, make sure it's fluid and flashy at all times

it sells itself!

Noticed this back in 09 and it's clear as day, EA values these dude far more than they value us!
YouTube - Fifa 11 Amazing Online Goals/Skills Compilation ''A Reason'' - FifaSkiller100 HD
YouTube - Fifa 11' On Target 1.0' Online Goals Compilation
http://www.youtube.com/user/Hjerpseth#p/u

 

[glen]

Before we all get to self elevated. Let's remember there are a lot of football fans who are younger or not geeky gamers like us.

Sure the game for US is no where near what we want but it's fun and an escape from reality.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I'm curious to know what others think their goals per match average is (total for both sides, not just what you score)?

A cursory google search seems to indicate that the various leagues average between 2.5-3 goals per match.

In the CM I've started since the patch, using ESTAC in France's Ligue 2, I have played 16, scored 10 and allowed 9, for a goals per match of roughly 1.2. Despite my poor goal record, thanks to my stingy defense I am midtable, with a 6-6-4 record. Looking at the table the next lowest goal total so far is 33 (GF: 14; GA: 19) by Tours, though they have played one less game, which equals a GPM of 2.2.

I continue to find the game's difficulty levels between offense and defense unbalanced for me - too easy to defend, too difficult to create shots. I could lower the difficulty level to increase my team's goal average, but then I'd need to put the controller down on defense to give the CPU a fair chance.

From my various CM careers, to UT, to regular kickoff matches, I've found FIFA 11 a low-scoring affair, unrealistically so. I play all manual controls, on either WC/Legendary setting depending on the quality of teams I'm playing with and my current form.

Any thoughts? Advice? I know that I'm not the best player around, so of course improving on offense would logically be part of a solution, though I don't struggle with this imbalance in PES or with previous FIFAs. I could also not play all manual I suppose but the game becomes much less satisfying. I could also drop the difficulty level to increase my scoring record, but like I said defending then becomes hardly a challenge at all.

Are others experiencing such low goal per match averages?

 

[glen]

I have to say even on legendary I can score 2+ a match with Peterborough. I deliberately try weird stuff or give the ai space to make it play better.

It's a shame on world class they won't bloody shoot or finish :|

 

[glen]

Max you on ps3? Let's have a game I'll lose but it will be fun

 

[klashman69]

Before we all get to self elevated. Let's remember there are a lot of football fans who are younger or not geeky gamers like us.

Sure the game for US is no where near what we want but it's fun and an escape from reality.

Yes, we all completely over analyze football games!

Still the point is why do we bang our heads against the wall for the game if it's never going to do what we want it to do or know it can do!

 

[glen]

Because it's very selfish to proclaim we would make the best sim ever and alienate millions of other football fans that just aren't as au fait with FIFA as we are.

We aren't taking missle software here. We are talking a football computer game with a 10 button control pad. I think that gets lost sometimes.

It's not about over analysing it's about the small steps to get the game we want. The point in case is the trick vids, they have huge amounts of views. I'm pretty sure that's because people want to play the best of football not sit with a pie on some league 2 side in then cold.

I'm playing devils advocate here but apart from depth and some mechanical tweaking FIFA is pretty good. Frustrating yes but pretty good.

What would make the game more accessible, fun and realistic in your opinion?

 

[mfmaxpower]

I have to say even on legendary I can score 2+ a match with Peterborough. I deliberately try weird stuff or give the ai space to make it play better.

It's a shame on world class they won't bloody shoot or finish :|

Max you on ps3? Let's have a game I'll lose but it will be fun

I'm on both but I'm afraid I can play h2h only on the 360, though even then it's really not worth the effort - to be honest I think my internet connection is partly to blame.

Or at least that's the excuse I'm using if you're scoring 2+ with Peterborough! Are you using all manual, a mix, all assisted? I think I'm going to switch it up for a few games - sometimes when my form is poor I find it can help to switch to semi for a few games. Also, and I have no idea why this is, sometimes I play FIFA better if I switch to PES for a few games and then switch back!

About shooting and finishing, if you're up for it you may want to alter the CPU's tactics so that shooting and chance creation are 80+. I did this for one of my CMs, though not my current, and I think it helped some.

I'm playing devils advocate here but apart from depth and some mechanical tweaking FIFA is pretty good. Frustrating yes but pretty good.

^^This. I forget who said it but there's a fantastic game in there somewhere.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of complaints on the forums at the moment has to do with non-gameplay issues, like micro-pausing, CM, cheats/glitches, connection issues, etc.

The hate right now isn't directed at FIFA; for the most part the hate is being directed at EA.

 

[mfmaxpower]

And I forgot to mention, just found a new bug. I'm not sure if this can be reproduced in other modes but in my current CM I've found an issue with comparing two of my strikers in the team management screen.

So here's the thing: one striker has high/med workrates, the other med/med. When I compare the two strikers, as in the dual-screen comparison, their workrates are listed as being the same - whether it's high/med or med/med for both depends on which player I first highlighted.

**Edit: I just tried this with other players and it's the same. Dunno if this is new or was here pre-patch but this is the first I've noticed it.

 

[nerf]

I'm curious to know what others think their goals per match average is (total for both sides, not just what you score)?

I remember looking at the league table midway through my first CM season at Newcastle and my Goals For and Goals Against were very much the same as the other teams around me. I didn't do a direct comparison at the end of the season but my instinct is that the story was probably the same. I actually had a 3-3 recently (10 mins, Slow, Legendary, manual, no pressure buttons), though that is rare.

Won't be exploring this again any time soon. I broke my collarbone playing Sunday League this morning and nobody has yet invented the one-handed control pad... could make defending more difficult.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I remember looking at the league table midway through my first CM season at Newcastle and my Goals For and Goals Against were very much the same as the other teams around me. I didn't do a direct comparison at the end of the season but my instinct is that the story was probably the same. I actually had a 3-3 recently (10 mins, Slow, Legendary, manual, no pressure buttons), though that is rare.

Won't be exploring this again any time soon. I broke my collarbone playing Sunday League this morning and nobody has yet invented the one-handed control pad... could make defending more difficult.

Wait, I should be using two hands? Shit, no wonder I can't score!

Seriously, that blows - but hey, maybe they'll finally have some things fixed by the time your ready to go again.

I'm thinking manual controls are my problem. I'm not sure it's an accuracy thing as much as I wonder whether I try to do too much, try to make unrealistic passes with manual's freedom rather than play a little more patiently. Maybe the "straight-jacket" controls of assisted/semi can help remind me to not try the impossible.

So what's the recovery time? You should email Marcel as proof there ARE injuries in football!

 

[nerf]

I'm thinking manual controls are my problem. I'm not sure it's an accuracy thing as much as I wonder whether I try to do too much, try to make unrealistic passes with manual's freedom rather than play a little more patiently. Maybe the "straight-jacket" controls of assisted/semi can help remind me to not try the impossible.

That's interesting. I would have thought that the more guaranteed accuracy of assisted controls would make one attempt more difficult passes, and the uncertainty of manual would lead to more safe options.

Not sure on recovery time, should find out tomorrow if it needs an operation. I think my gaming for the next several weeks will be restricted to left-handed FM-ing.

 

[klashman69]

Because it's very selfish to proclaim we would make the best sim ever and alienate millions of other football fans that just aren't as au fait with FIFA as we are.

We aren't taking missle software here. We are talking a football computer game with a 10 button control pad. I think that gets lost sometimes.

It's not about over analysing it's about the small steps to get the game we want. The point in case is the trick vids, they have huge amounts of views. I'm pretty sure that's because people want to play the best of football not sit with a pie on some league 2 side in then cold.

Now the open eyes smileys is that i really cannot understand why your not trying to understand my point and instead you seems to be assuming something very different.

MY point is, EA don't really need us! So why do we spend so much time getting worked up and debating what we want changed? FIFA 11 been a commercial success, even more so than last year! If us hardcore's aren't happy will EA even break a sweat when they see the millions? Of course FIFA is fantasy football and is built for fantasy football! People would rather see AC Milan players doing 100 skill moves past 6 players than a well worked passing goal so if this is EA prerogative, why do we bother?

I'm playing devils advocate here but apart from depth and some mechanical tweaking FIFA is pretty good. Frustrating yes but pretty good.

That sums up fifa' it's pretty good for about a month or 2, but after that there's pretty much 0 replay value.

 

[Rob92]

I just don't see FIFA's appeal this year at all.

Realistic? Absolutely not.
Arcade fun? Not really, you can't fly past everyone with quick players like the last few versions and the passing is slightly more difficult.
Off-pitch features? Nope, BAP hasn't been expanded much and Career Mode is lame.

I fail to see how the game is a success and why it's got such positive reception and massive sales... But it has and that's why FIFA will probably suck for the forseeable future.

 

[klashman69]

What would make the game more accessible, fun and realistic in your opinion?

Sliders should help.

The gameplay for now, the best i can see is a cross between FIFA 08 and the controls/layout of the world cup game! Something like that would be playable! I mean i found the world cup game very playable, even though repetitive.

 

[StuartCulli]

1v1 manual games are still King. Had a gigantic session with my mate last night, teaching him the ways of manual. 8pm til 4.30am.

Absolutely quality.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I just don't see FIFA's appeal this year at all.

Realistic? Absolutely not.
Arcade fun? Not really, you can't fly past everyone with quick players like the last few versions and the passing is slightly more difficult.
Off-pitch features? Nope, BAP hasn't been expanded much and Career Mode is lame.

I fail to see how the game is a success and why it's got such positive reception and massive sales... But it has and that's why FIFA will probably suck for the forseeable future.

Simple: for many people the alternative to FIFA still isn't good enough while most people likely either don't recognize the game's faults the degree we do or they don't care. An easy to learn control scheme, great looks, the most important licenses, and responsive gameplay that does a fantastic job at providing the visual illusion to realistic football... it's really no mystery.

Here's the thing though, what I described above makes up something like 75 percent of what FIFA is and will continue to be. We can at best hope for marginal change in the FIFA formula but if we take an honest assessment of FIFA that's all it needs. Slow down some animations, add a greater emphasis on momentum and footplanting, reduce the effectiveness of the tackling animations and defending in general, and you'd have probably the best gameplay ever for a football game without question. Increase the role of P+ and add greater tactical depth and you'd have the best total package ever.

Okay, that sounds like more than I intended it to be. Still, I think FIFA is close, certainly closer than PES, to creating the ideal football game working under the restrictions of this gen's tech. What PES has going for it that gives it a fighting chance, at least with the hardcore, is Konami's dev team and their commitment to fundamentals.

Also, regarding FIFA's appeal I'll say personally that manual controls have become a major draw. I know others have said they get the "off the couch feeling" with PES this year but for me it comes no where close to scoring a goal on full manual.

On the other hand, also regarding appeal, at least for single player I'm not sure how long FIFA will last because of the lack of depth and CM's total failure this year. So far I've been splitting my time between the two games but I can see PES slowly taking over completely. I know quite a number of guys who play only a fraction the amount I play so for them FIFA will probably suffice.

Sliders should help.

The gameplay for now, the best i can see is a cross between FIFA 08 and the controls/layout of the world cup game! Something like that would be playable! I mean i found the world cup game very playable, even though repetitive.

Huh? The only major difference I can think of between the two is the addition of the low lobbed pass in FIFA 11. What was better in the WC game? I agree though, I think overall I like the WC gameplay more than FIFA 11's.

 

[mfmaxpower]

That's interesting. I would have thought that the more guaranteed accuracy of assisted controls would make one attempt more difficult passes, and the uncertainty of manual would lead to more safe options.

Screw it. I can't play semi/assisted controls. I just played quite a number of matches and overall the end result of my matches remained consistent. In the end the only thing that matters, results wise, is goals and I still struggled like on manual. I don't know if I'm not thinking fast enough or what but once I get to the final third I lose possession.

I complain though in truth I'm doing well in my CM and I'm in 4th at the moment, but really that's because of my stingy defense. I get pissed at FIFA because I feel like my total and utter dominance in all areas of the game are not apparent in the score.

I don't know if you saw the Man Utd - Man City match midweek but imagine being Sir Alex and that's how every match plays out. That's my CM.

I know what you mean about manual v assisted but I'm experienced enough with manual passing that "uncertainty" isn't a factor at all - because of the freedom of manual there's no pass I can't, in theory, hit, so I go for it. If I'm being honest part of the problem is being a little too arrogant and reckless with my decisions.

When playing with semi/assist you have to factor in where the CPU will actually put the ball, a major disadvantage and the reason I hate not playing manual. On manual I can lead a player or put the ball into space. I don't have to think "where is the CPU going to aim this pass." On semi/assisted you're handing over control and sacrificing your own decision making and freedom of options to the CPU's discretion.

That's the tradeoff, for me, between manual and assisted controls. On manual I don't have to sacrifice what I want to do to the CPU's ability to correctly predict my intention; I only have to worry about the player I'm controlling and my own ability. The disadvantage of manual is accuracy, but I've played manual enough now that over the space of an entire match accuracy for me doesn't suffer - I seem to average in the low 80s, at least in my Ligue 2 CM, whether it's manual or semi.

I guess the biggest disadvantage for me now is the added time it takes to power up a pass. I do also wonder how much people may be right who say by using manual controls you lose some of the individuality between players.

 

[Rodelero]

The question, as always, comes down to how can we influence them the most. As a community, EA clearly don't really listen to us. A huge number of people voted on the forum about Pro Passing - a deafening majority demanded change.

We got nothing. In fact, this year, the whole story has made one thing patently obvious. It's not that we aren't loud enough, or even not persuasive enough - it's that they patently don't care.

And yet, and yet, they are allowed to wear this hat of "listening". In part thanks to the gamechanger programme - they allow themselves every year to advertise that so much of it is in response to feedback - that they listen to these empowered community members so the game can be directed by the community...

At the very least, if EA are to continue to ignore (assuming they do) I don't think their claim to being the listening nice guys should be left intact.

 

[nerf]

I get pissed at FIFA because I feel like my total and utter dominance in all areas of the game are not apparent in the score.

There are no points awarded for statistics! Keep working at finding ways to open up teams. As Rinus Michels said: "Ball circulation is a means, not a goal in itself!"