klashman69
Fight the Power!
- 28 November 2007
The way things are going. I have a feeling this game will be a bigger disaster online than FIFA 09 and 10 put together!
Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3
- Thread starter jonneymendoza
- Start date
Based on what? There is pretty much nothing about this game which has got in anyway worse - and a lot which have got better by varying degrees. Whilst the quality of the simulation is questionable I'm 99% certain that barring horrible exploits this game will generally not be as bad as FIFA 10 or 09 online, or even close. A lot of the major issues with FIFA 10's online are gone, some completely, some at least improved upon.
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klashman69
Fight the Power!
- 28 November 2007
There should be much less exploits, the game should be slight more balanced and improved very, very slightly in most area's. It should feel like a finished version of FIFA 10, an entity in itself.
Also The amount of teams you can play with especially championship teas/ lower league teams from spain etc.. and random teams from Russia, turkey and eve Switzerland. Always a challenge playing with them online vs the big guns! PES dosen't have that!
There's virtual pro and clubs but I'm unconvinced by the poor reviews i got last year about the huge exploits in the gameplay! Also too many players cheating etc..
Just something i've been thinking about here:
We can all see that FIFA still has glaring errors which prevents it from being the sim we want. Issue is PES 2011 from what i've played and what I'm hearing from the previews is the monster i predicted it would be (PES 2010 was so clearly a base for PES 2011). With PES in gameplay terms offering so much FIFA doesn't many purist players, like yourself even will play that game more, will likely play that game online more than FIFA.
The effect it will cause, these purists will take fifa less seriously when playing it, they might have an attitude of (Hey, if you want realism play PES, I'm on this for fun). Since there aren't many purist players out there online will be a even bigger swarm of abusers, spammers and cunt players!
FIFA is here to stay and will never die. It's far too strong financially and has far too many followers! We all play football games, this game has given us plenty of great moments for decades and it's all in our best interest to improve the games. But if something like this starts to happen when people just stop taking FIFA seriously? What's next? Will it just carry on with the arcade like gameplay or revamp it's image!
It's sounds hypothetical i know, but i can see it happening. You could just say purist always play like purists no matter what football game they play eh?
FIFA will cope fine financially but in quality of gameplay. I don't know what direction this game is going in?
The effect it will cause, these purists will take fifa less seriously when playing it, they might have an attitude of (Hey, if you want realism play PES, I'm on this for fun). Since there aren't many purist players out there online will be a even bigger swarm of abusers, spammers and cunt players!
FIFA is here to stay and will never die. It's far too strong financially and has far too many followers! We all play football games, this game has given us plenty of great moments for decades and it's all in our best interest to improve the games. But if something like this starts to happen when people just stop taking FIFA seriously? What's next? Will it just carry on with the arcade like gameplay or revamp it's image!
It's sounds hypothetical i know, but i can see it happening. You could just say purist always play like purists no matter what football game they play eh?
FIFA will cope fine financially but in quality of gameplay. I don't know what direction this game is going in?
In regards to the non-hidden:
Improved very very slightly is maybe a little harsh - but if there are much less exploits that will be a massive improvement honestly. It's stupid, but both PES 2010 and FIFA 10 were both so broken online I couldn't stand them. The first game to undo that, whether it's a great simulation of football in evrey area or not, is going to be something I jump at.
and the rest:
For me the breaking point will be next year - the sliders should give EA no excuse to ruin the game so casuals like it. It might work, who knows. One thing I'm sure of is that some of the best feedback givers in the FIFA community will just get bored of trying. People cannot feel that they put hours and hours of hard, free work into trying to help a game improve while EA fail to get over the casual hurdle.
If PES continues to improve at the rate it does, and FIFA continues to improve much more slowly, there will be little keeping me playing FIFA - 11v11 is a real asset for it now from my pov.
Improved very very slightly is maybe a little harsh - but if there are much less exploits that will be a massive improvement honestly. It's stupid, but both PES 2010 and FIFA 10 were both so broken online I couldn't stand them. The first game to undo that, whether it's a great simulation of football in evrey area or not, is going to be something I jump at.
and the rest:
For me the breaking point will be next year - the sliders should give EA no excuse to ruin the game so casuals like it. It might work, who knows. One thing I'm sure of is that some of the best feedback givers in the FIFA community will just get bored of trying. People cannot feel that they put hours and hours of hard, free work into trying to help a game improve while EA fail to get over the casual hurdle.
If PES continues to improve at the rate it does, and FIFA continues to improve much more slowly, there will be little keeping me playing FIFA - 11v11 is a real asset for it now from my pov.
Ok. After reading that article, I'm pretty positive he's watching these boards.
Mr. Moore, give us first touch, please.
And playing as a GK in Fifa now isn't primitive? It can surely be fun yet very primitive when the GK dives towards the ball regardless of your input...
Mr. Moore, give us first touch, please.
And playing as a GK in Fifa now isn't primitive? It can surely be fun yet very primitive when the GK dives towards the ball regardless of your input...
Murkurial
League 1
- 21 August 2008
Nah, getting less and less hyped for it by the day. It may be improved over FIFA 10, but the changes needed are drastic, and it's clear that it isn't approaching that.
I'll try and get as much enjoyment out of Gourcuff and Lyon as I can though but I'd imagine that ping ponging will kill my interest in this game in no time.
That's not quite how it works - especially not on manual. The only saves which are automatic are reflex ones. What you do -definitely- matters.
Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
Tell me how will you solve the main problem that you will get if you create a super realistic gameplay?
We are all football fans and we all now that creating goal opportunity is a matter of time. It takes time to build a good play, to have a good shot on goal. Sometimes you have to play your opponent tired until you get some good chances.
How will you solve this problem in a super realistic game that is played only 2 x 5 mins? Imo that is not possible.
If you play FIFA 10, 9 8 whatever you will get 5,6 maybe 10 maybe more shots on goal in 2 x 5 mins playtime. That is a joke if you see it from a realistic point of view. You have to be honest with this. It is not realistic and it never will and it never was before (also not in any PES Game).
A compromise must be found to get a football! game that ist playable with fun as long as gamer don't want to play it 2 x45 mins.
Tell me how will you solve this problem?
I really hate the fact that in FIFA 10 you and your opponent have so much time on the ball. You can easily control every pass and in the box your defender never be close to the striker. I hate loosing a header with my very tall defender against a very short striker. I hate the super perfect crossing, passing, shooting every time i play against the Comp. But that is somehow the price i need to pay playing only 2 x 5 mins. Without this, as i said before, almost nothing would happen in this short playing time. How will you solve this Problem? I don't know.
A lot of People hate PES 5 (i love it btw) and it was never ever realistic. It just feels very good. But you remember what people hate on PES 5 so much? That is was so hard to score goals especially in short 2 x 5 mins online. In PES 6 they make scoring a lot easier again because of this negative feedback.
It is a game and it is supposed to have fun. To shot, to score. Especially if you play it 10 mins a game.
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Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
I don't know anything about Madden, so i can't say anything about it - sorry. But i do love the NBA 2k franchise. I buy it every year and i love it. I even play 12 mins a quarter because i will get the stats as realistic as possible.
But basketball is not football. You can play 4 mins a quarter and you will still get a great fun game out of it. Because basketball is pure action. Every single play is action. In football it is not. In a real football game you can have 30 mins without any shot an goal. You will not find a lot of people who have fun playing 30 mins of a game without any exciting action.
People play FIFA 2 mins a half online, maybe 5 mins a half. In a realistic basketball game a game with 5 mins a half would still end 20-18 and you see a lot of action. In a realistic football game a game with 5 mins a half should end 0-0 without a shot an goal on both sides and without any action.
Football is a special game. I guess it is not that easy to have it realistic an playable and still fun.
You are right but let's see how far EA have come with this in FIFA 11. Maybe it works a little bit better than in FIFA 10. To be honest in don't remember how it works in PES 3, 4, 5 and 6.
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Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
I hate this mindset that everything have to be full on action from start to finish to be "fun"... I like to play chess from time to time because I find it fun, does it mean I'm wrong about it's fun factor?
Football brains don't hate midfield battles. Yeah it might be a bit boring sometimes while watching it on TV, but that's because you don't have any control of it.
I rather see the game be more like chess, where you have to use your brain, than how it currently is. But I'll never have it like that because it's obviously not fun.
Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
I feel the same Gab. I would even play FIFA 2 x 45 mins if this would be possible. I am really a Sim-Freak and i love to work hard for every shot. I would love to have a midfield game in FIFA, because at this point it is missing at all.
But FIFA is just a game and probably not a game for you an me. We have to be realistic. It is a game for millions of players who want to have fun playing short games online.
Maybe one day EA will make a FIFA hardcore realism edition. But until then we need to live with compromises.
But FIFA is just a game and probably not a game for you an me. We have to be realistic. It is a game for millions of players who want to have fun playing short games online.
Maybe one day EA will make a FIFA hardcore realism edition. But until then we need to live with compromises.
stilts1844
League 1
- 2 January 2003
I think you're getting the wrong idea of what we mean when we say realism, or the wrong idea of what I mean anyway. Obviously the game will need to play faster than a real game, there needs to be more shots and goals fit in to less time etc. But this has nothing to do with:
-Getting first touches correct
-Getting defensive lines correct
-Center backs being on the goal line (hopefully fixed)
-passing having error, especially 180 passes
-Players having appropriate wrong foot accuracy
-Acceleration being tuned in terms of players turning
etc.
We get frustrated because we know these things are possible, and being absent they detract from the game.
TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- 7 August 2004
- Liverpool
It has nothing to do with simulating 10 chances across 90min of gametime. Do people think we want a flightsimulator of a football game?! Nobody is talking about that!
When we talk about simulator we are talking about simulating the basic realities of a football match; realistic player identity, actually having first touch be meaningfull, realistic tactics and pressure, realistic defensive/attacking AI, realistic crossing/heading battles, realistic play models for AI teams, etc.
It has nothing to do with difficulty, all these elements should be incorporated into the game and should be apparent whether playing on amateur or legendary, playing 2 min halfs or 10min halfs, playing "arcadestyle" or "simulator".
"Fun" or "simulator" or whatever shouldn't be related to having football basics not in the game, it should be related to a far more clever set of difficulty levels and gameplay settings. Think of amateur/legendary and slow/normal/fast speeds. They should be able to add a few more sliders and that would allow people to choose.
The most frustrating part of the game/EA atm is that they are building all kinds of tech that helps simulate real football yet they continue to make the game based on arcade principles. A lot of us came on board with 07/08 as that really was going down the sim route, however since Rutter it's gone more and more arcade behind of mask of sim technology advancements. I'm fed up with it and am hoping PES2011 is good enough this year to step over, although I think it's more likely to be 2012.
When we talk about simulator we are talking about simulating the basic realities of a football match; realistic player identity, actually having first touch be meaningfull, realistic tactics and pressure, realistic defensive/attacking AI, realistic crossing/heading battles, realistic play models for AI teams, etc.
It has nothing to do with difficulty, all these elements should be incorporated into the game and should be apparent whether playing on amateur or legendary, playing 2 min halfs or 10min halfs, playing "arcadestyle" or "simulator".
"Fun" or "simulator" or whatever shouldn't be related to having football basics not in the game, it should be related to a far more clever set of difficulty levels and gameplay settings. Think of amateur/legendary and slow/normal/fast speeds. They should be able to add a few more sliders and that would allow people to choose.
The most frustrating part of the game/EA atm is that they are building all kinds of tech that helps simulate real football yet they continue to make the game based on arcade principles. A lot of us came on board with 07/08 as that really was going down the sim route, however since Rutter it's gone more and more arcade behind of mask of sim technology advancements. I'm fed up with it and am hoping PES2011 is good enough this year to step over, although I think it's more likely to be 2012.
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Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
But all theses things
-Getting first touches correct
-Getting defensive lines correct
-Center backs being on the goal line (hopefully fixed)
-passing having error, especially 180 passes
-Players having appropriate wrong foot accuracy
-Acceleration being tuned in terms of players turning
etc.
will make this game a hole lot harder. It will make this game a hole lot more challenging (is that the right word?). And it will reduce the amount of shots an goals and you will score less goals for sure.
You can not separate your points from the hole thing. If EA for example reduce the space and time you have to receive a pass or control a pass the hole game would change dramatically. If they would make passing a lot harder, it would change the game big time. You know what i mean?
At this stage this game is designed for quick short games. If they would change your points (i wish they would) i am pretty much sure it would not work for 2 x 2 or 2 x 5 mins anymore. It would be to much of a challenge for this short playtime. EA will not do this. They could do it without a doubt. Of course they could but they will not. They need to think about millions of casual gamers who simply want to play this game online with fun (and in football this means shot an score great goals).
TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- 7 August 2004
- Liverpool
@ Robbery,
I think the core issue is making it contextual related to slider settings. That you can choose "arcade" and the player individuality is reduced, first touch is always good, defense gives more space, etc.
They should have the tech to enable these settings imo, it's all based on statistics and setting numbers (the non-patch update method). Link it also to difficulty and it's a solid base imo.
As for online, that's another beast and something they should just sort out with lobbies or something. I can hardly get 1-on-1 matches to work as they f#$ked it up with the p2p system, and it's something still reguraly posted on the FIFA forums with new people having the same problems every day. It's all very well them trying to hind behind uniformaty but the game is broken is so many ways anyway that a lot of stuff just doens't work well as it is.
I think the core issue is making it contextual related to slider settings. That you can choose "arcade" and the player individuality is reduced, first touch is always good, defense gives more space, etc.
They should have the tech to enable these settings imo, it's all based on statistics and setting numbers (the non-patch update method). Link it also to difficulty and it's a solid base imo.
As for online, that's another beast and something they should just sort out with lobbies or something. I can hardly get 1-on-1 matches to work as they f#$ked it up with the p2p system, and it's something still reguraly posted on the FIFA forums with new people having the same problems every day. It's all very well them trying to hind behind uniformaty but the game is broken is so many ways anyway that a lot of stuff just doens't work well as it is.
Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
Really i think it has. All the things we wish to see in this game would make it much more of a challenge. Of course it would.
If you have to look and think about the right foot before you pass a ball, if not your pass will miss, it is more challenging. If you have to know your player who receive the pass, if you need to know how good he can control a sharp pass and if you need to correct your position before you receive the pass it would be more of a challenge. If you have less time and space to pass it and to receive a pass it would be more of a challenge. If you need to know that you must pass the ball to the left foot of Özil otherwise his shoot will fly to the moon it makes it more challenging.
It has something to do with difficulty. And so it has something to do with gametime.
Again. I am not satisfied with FIFA at this point. But on the other hand i know i am expecting to much from this game. It will never be the game that i wishing for. Never. It will always be a compromise between my wishes and millions of casual players. So i really think some of the critic for FIFA 11 is a little bit to harsh. It doesn't look shit imo and it will be a good game a better game then FIFA 10, especially against mates.
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Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
Yes. That would be great! Lets hope for it.
TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- 7 August 2004
- Liverpool
I understand that position, however where do you stop? If that is the principle you are basing your game on you might as well just have every player be a generic entity with no individuality and you would have the "perfect" arcade game.
The biggest issue imo is the lying that they are trying to make a simulation when it's obvious they are holding back. Ofcourse it's all pr spiel to keep the "hardcore" present as that has always led to commercial and critical succes. But they are starting to show their true colours imo and it will quickly backfire. You can already tell from the atmosphere on here that a lot of us are looking hopeful at PES as the oppertunity to go back to a simulation as they are focussing on that. Eurogamer already had a cynical review of Madden this month, so I'm hoping they won't hold back on FIFA if it turns out to be another "poor" effort. Especially in the context of a reguvinated PES.
Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
If you ask me i won't stop until every player feels unique and until every player has his own real character. I don't want to see Robben shooting or crossing with his right foot way to often. I hate it.
But i have learned that it will take time until we get this, if we get it at all. They are starting with Passing and Personality Pro now. That could be as a reaction of the feedback from sim gamers. They could easily say "we don't care - passing is fine" and would still sold millions of copys (including my and your copy).
It seems that Passing and Personality Pro/Plus don't go as far as we are hoping for but it is more then nothing. That is the way it goes. And PES works the same way. They always give you just a little because they need to improve things over the years. They need to sell the same game year after year.
I am not sure about that. Of course they are holding back what could be possible to make this game much more simulation style. But on the other hand they have listen to the sim-fans too and improve a lot of things like shooting, responsiveness (Remember Fifa 8) tacklings etc. It is a slow process and of course we want more but it is not that they don't listen at all.
All after all we need to play FIFA 11 before we judge them.
Searain
Banned
First off, it's fairly easy to inject a lot of individuality into a game when you only have a handful of teams to digitalize.
Perfect Striker on Nintendo 64 had signature celebrations, running/shooting/heading animations for at least 4~5 star players from each J.League team back in 1996.
Try doing that for all of the Clubs/National teams in the world while dealing with todays technical standards...it would take ages and lots of resources I'd rather have poured into the gameplay development.
Furthermore, I've seen a lot of talking about NBA 2kxx being an alleged "full sim" and whatnot, doesn't it rely on semi-assisted (with the CPU helping out the player with aiming/calibrating and stuff) passing and shooting though?
Nice sim you got there.
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nerf
Forming triangles
I think you make an excellent point, Robbery, and it's something we should always bear in mind when discussing feedback about the game.
It's important that we don't take it to extremes in either direction. We should remember that the game needs be slightly 'above reality' to be able to condense the action in a fun way, but also that that doesn't instantly mean that anything unrealistic can't be improved upon.
The key word, as you mentioned, is compromise.
Ball control, as an example. When a player unleashes a powerful shot and another player runs across the path of the ball, if the ball strikes him in the chest he shouldn't instantly bring it under control, it should deflect away. That's something that could be fixed without making the ball less easy to control in general, I'm sure.
It's those moments that bend reality a bit too far, that break the immersion, that can be worked upon without making the game too much of a challenge to enjoy.
Stamina/fatigue comes into that same category. Being able to sprint so much might mean, in theory, that you can press harder for the ball, win it back more quickly, sprint to goal more quickly and therefore create more goalmouth action, but the fact that all players can do it for the whole game feels downright wrong. Especially when there's a stamina bar right there on screen that's basically doing nothing.
Again, 180 degree passing. It might facilitate easier ball movement for those who don't want to put any brain power into it, but when a player is hitting a perfect 40 yard pass with his weaker foot while falling and turning at the same time and it still drops right on the money... it starts to permit the ridiculous. So there's room for improvement there, without making passing an unacceptable challenge.
Fun should always be the aim, you're right, but it certainly doesn't mean we're stuck with what we've got.
I was thinking the other day about why I got 12+ months of enjoyment out of FIFA09 and only a fraction of that out of FIFA10. Fundamentally, one was a more frustrating game than the other. That's what it came down to. FIFA10 had several advances over FIFA09, but for various reasons/bugs I found it a more irritating experience and as a result less fun. So my hopes for FIFA11 rely on it containing less frustrations than FIFA10 had, rather than hoping that it is a great leap forward for simulation.
That's why things like Player Selection logic, a bug-fixed MM and less retarded AI teammates are high on my personal wish-list. Similarly, the most common outcry is about exploits like ping-pong passing. Take the frustrations and the exploits away and we can enjoy the game even if the level of simulation is not quite 100% to taste.
Once you have a consistently enjoyable game, the next step is to then make it a deeper experience, which in football terms generally means things like player individuality and meaningful strategy. They're having a stab at the former this year, I'll lay a tenner that the latter is at least partly a focus for 12. This depth brings further enjoyment at any casual/sim level, unrelated to difficulty, and therefore is perhaps something we should focus our feedback on.
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Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
I think you are absolutely right with everything you say nerv. There are so much things to improve without a doubt. The things you mention like Player Selection logic, a bug-fixed MM and less retarded AI teammates are important for me too. Also an improved passing game, an existing stamina/fatigue system and so on.
It was just that we sometimes forget that it is not a simulation but just a game. A game with 10 mins gametime instead of 90 mins like the real thing. And that makes a difference, it has to.
I am not willing to give up all my hopes for the FIFA franchise. I still think they will improve a lot of things over the next years. It will be a deeper experience and it is already a deeper experience than it was in FIFA 08 for example. Shooting, crossing, physics, passing, tackling, dribbling! responsiveness - it is all improved since FIFA 08 (some more, some a little bit less, but overall it is improved).
A lot of users in these board are in connection with EA. And i believe that this is really important and i believe this kind of feedback from this kind of users will make this game better. The point is it will take more time and at this point it feels like most of us are tired of waiting. We want huge steps now. But that won't happen. We need to live with a compromise. Step by step and little by little and some things will probably never be included (because it is a game and not a simulation). That's what is it.
It was just that we sometimes forget that it is not a simulation but just a game. A game with 10 mins gametime instead of 90 mins like the real thing. And that makes a difference, it has to.
I am not willing to give up all my hopes for the FIFA franchise. I still think they will improve a lot of things over the next years. It will be a deeper experience and it is already a deeper experience than it was in FIFA 08 for example. Shooting, crossing, physics, passing, tackling, dribbling! responsiveness - it is all improved since FIFA 08 (some more, some a little bit less, but overall it is improved).
A lot of users in these board are in connection with EA. And i believe that this is really important and i believe this kind of feedback from this kind of users will make this game better. The point is it will take more time and at this point it feels like most of us are tired of waiting. We want huge steps now. But that won't happen. We need to live with a compromise. Step by step and little by little and some things will probably never be included (because it is a game and not a simulation). That's what is it.
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StuartCulli
College Dropout
- 25 July 2006
- Newcastle United
- Thread starter
- #5,004
jonneymendoza
Legend
- 1 January 2004
- Arsenal
- Thread starter
- #5,005
jonneymendoza
Legend
- 1 January 2004
- Arsenal
decades? more like a few years. most here started playing fifa from 07/08!!! PES has been the king since the PS1 days
R
Rob92
Guest
Look at PES on PS2 - there were many different dribbling, freekick, penalty and especially celebration animations.
Not every player needs to be mo-capped to perfection - there just needs to be plenty of variation and choice in animations covering most techniques for most things a player does on the pitch so that the data editors can choose the suitable ones for the players.
That would be enough, assuming the attributes make enough of an impact too.
Currently (FIFA 10) we have attributes that seem to make a negligible difference to play (except for speed/strength/shot power) and the exact same animations for every player, with the odd different free kick animation. Even if P+ has adds some signature player animations, that isn't really enough IMO.
Come on dude... I'm not a big fan of basketball but I know that "fully manual" aiming on such a fast paced sport would not improve the realism - passing would be ridiculously hard when in real life it's easy, shooting at the basket on "manual" would also be impossible as the basket is barely bigger than the ball!
In football the ball is smaller and the goal is 24 feet wide making manual shooting reasonable... The margin for error on passing is massively bigger too.
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I'd definitely play 90 minute matches if given the option, just like I plan to do 100% race distance on F1 2010. The length of time you play is part of what makes these things great sports - it adds tactical depth and much better battles.
Problem with FIFA 10, even doing 40 minute matches, is the poor AI means that you will concede even if you do everything right.
Problem with FIFA 10, even doing 40 minute matches, is the poor AI means that you will concede even if you do everything right.
klashman69
Fight the Power!
- 28 November 2007
Ha, played every fifa since 95 and ever pro since 97, 98.
Played the Nintendo Konami football game but only in like 2000 at a friends. Good game that was
WILDSTER180774
Championship
No word from Nick yet?
mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
Okay, everyone else and their grandmothers have covered everything, and probably better than I would, so I'll just say I have NEVER said I want "super" realistic gameplay, and I don't appreciate you exaggerating my post like that. I have always said it's a balancing act, and finding the right mixture of fun, accessibility, and realism is the goal. But it drives me crazy when people argue greater realism = less fun. Gaming in general is, and has been, trending to realism, from FPS, RPGS to sports games, and I don't think anyone wants to argue games are becoming less fun.
When we speak of realism for the game, we don't mean we want in-game stats to reflect real-world stats minute to minute, but rather for FIFA to accurately reflect the game's fundamental principles, like first touch and defensive containment.
Again, trying to be (fairly) brief, I would ask you to consider that increased realism works both ways: yes, more realistic first touch and passing ability will lead to more errors, but on the other hand more intelligent offensive AI, improved dribbling mechanics in tight spaces, and decreased effectiveness of spamming the pressure button will lead to more scoring opportunities.
Give me a more realistic game, and if it proves to be a yawn of an experience, then I'll rethink my opinions. Until then, you can count on me to keep fighting the football purist fight.