Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

Ryuga-san said:
Exactly, there is nothing more to add. As a French who follows the Ligue 1, I can just confirm kouroux' words !
Gourcuff is a good player, but he's a bit overrated. He's a promising player but isn't such a good playmaker.
Gourcuff isn't properly a playmaker as Zidane or Platini, he is not a number 10. His long pass accuracy allows him to play as Pirlo or Xavi.
By the way, Murkurial, Gourcuff didn't "make" Chamakh LOL. Chamakh was a good player way before Gourcuff came to Bordeaux...And please, don't tell me "you've not seen him enough etc etc", I've been following Ligue 1 for more than 10 years...
Click to expand...

thank you.I mean it's not a harsh criticism to say he's been overhyped.I think he has enough potential to become a cracking player one day but so far it's been more hype than actual consistent performances.He'll mature and get better I think but right now he isn't.
@Murkurial: sorry.I never intended to have a long debate like this and don't think the "haha" I posted badly
 
Booo they should show passing/shooting with very low stamina too. The difference in that video, 0 to 100, isn't that big to me. But it might be good enough while playing the game, just didn't look like much difference in the video.
 
Gab_ said:
Booo they should show passing/shooting with very low stamina too. The difference in that video, 0 to 100, isn't that big to me. But it might be good enough while playing the game, just didn't look like much difference in the video.
Click to expand...

The difference will be shown I think, when players are chasing that slower player. That slight difference will make quite a bit of a difference with other players on the pitch.

The best point was the recovery time as the second run backwards showed a bigger difference.

The fatigue is the most important bit, if they get that right during the game, then it will be great.
 
Excellent find Nick! And thx for answering my question on the abismal EA forums. I try to stay away from there as much as possible...
 
Gab_ said:
Booo they should show passing/shooting with very low stamina too. The difference in that video, 0 to 100, isn't that big to me. But it might be good enough while playing the game, just didn't look like much difference in the video.
Click to expand...

Remeber that's one run, you have to think of that for what could be half or more of the game too...
 
Agree, should be harsher imo (5% more?). Players should slow down even more when tired. And being able to sprint the whole pitch is a bit much aswell imo. But I guess a "simple" solution would be to downgrade everyones stamina stat. Or just moan enough that they can edit the background settings to update to a harsher model.

However what is really good is the regrow of stamina, as long as that stays pretty low players will be able to have one big sprint but then they will really need to conserve energy. I wonder who has the highest stamina rating, and how high that is?

Placebo, how high have you generally rated player stamina?

We really need fifa10 comparison vids to show the difference, or have some more patience till the demo arrives. Impressions have said that you now can't just sprint the whole match so maybe it's balanced enough already...
 
Last edited:
Nick Cave said:
Remeber that's one run, you have to think of that for what could be half or more of the game too...
Click to expand...

Very good point Nick.
That plus the fact that players have different accelerations/speed.It will at least bring some change to old boring system of run,run,run...
 
Nick Cave said:
Remeber that's one run, you have to think of that for what could be half or more of the game too...
Click to expand...

True. If they made ball control (each touch) error based it would be awesome combined with this system. So not only is the player slower, but his control of the ball would have more (possible) error. I'll become a fanboy for the game that is first to implement this.
 
Nick Cave said:
:D

What is your tag on there Scorpio10?...
Click to expand...

Nope it's Sc0rp1o.

Very pleased that you of all people will get to test the Career Mode. I'm a dedicated Manager Mode player aswell and, like you, begin with a league 2 team and try to gain promotion with a low budget.
 
drekkard said:
Having watched some PES videos, I still see the big glitches PEs still has, and there's something in the passing physics that still put me off. But, positional play is much much better.

Fifa has turned just a "go forward" experience for what I've seen.
Click to expand...
For me, judging only from the videos of PES11 that I've seen (and I haven't played the series since 2008), PES looks almost as positionally chaotic and one-paced as FIFA is.

Maybe they hold better defensive lines and are more aware when covering defensively, but two other positioning flaws are present in both games. One, it's still too common for a striker to receive an easy pass to feet in the centre of the pitch, facilitating and encouraging an unrealistic amount of forward passing. Maybe this is not as bad in PES as in FIFA (couldn't be worse), but the video on the previous page suggests it's still there.

Two, there's no midfield shape (defensively) in either game. Just a mess of people running around. You never, ever see this:



Sevilla's 442/4411 formation is clearly evident there during open play. It required some very sharp and inventive movement by Pedro and Dani Alves to create space in behind the Sevilla left back shortly after that screenshot.

One positioning flaw that PES appears to have that FIFA doesn't, is the way that PES AI players are scared of the sidelines. Everything looks crammed within the width of the penalty areas. FIFA's AI uses the full width of the pitch more realistically (although it is far too obsessed with crossing the ball, but that's a separate issue).

PES also looks just as one-paced as FIFA, again solely judging by that video on the previous page. Everything is done at full speed and with a forward tilt.

Throw in the manual controls of FIFA and I'm still not sharing the PES optimism at this stage, personally. Just my observations, and again I stress that it is without having played PES recently.
 
Last edited:
nerf said:
For me, judging only from the videos of PES11 that I've seen (and I haven't played the series since 2008), PES looks almost as positionally chaotic and one-paced as FIFA is.

Maybe they hold better defensive lines and are more aware when covering defensively, but two other positioning flaws are present in both games. One, it's still too common for a striker to receive an easy pass to feet in the centre of the pitch, facilitating and encouraging an unrealistic amount of forward passing. Maybe this is not as bad in PES as in FIFA (couldn't be worse), but the video on the previous page suggests it's still there.

Two, there's no midfield shape (defensively) in either game. Just a mess of people running around. You never, ever see this:



Sevilla's 442/4411 formation is clearly evident there during open play. It required some very sharp and inventive movement by Pedro and Dani Alves to create space in behind the Sevilla left back shortly after that screenshot.

One positioning flaw that PES appears to have that FIFA doesn't, is the way that PES AI players are scared of the sidelines. Everything looks crammed within the width of the penalty areas. FIFA's AI uses the full width of the pitch more realistically (although it is far too obsessed with crossing the ball, but that's a separate issue).

PES also looks just as one-paced as FIFA, again solely judging by that video on the previous page. Everything is done at full speed and with a forward tilt.

Throw in the manual controls of FIFA and I'm still not sharing the PES optimism at this stage, personally. Just my observations, and again I stress that it is without having played PES recently.
Click to expand...

Still not totally convinced on PES myself. I think it looks a whole lot better than the recent disasters and I probably will get it. However am not expecting great things just yet.
 
nerf said:
For me, judging only from the videos of PES11 that I've seen (and I haven't played the series since 2008), PES looks almost as positionally chaotic and one-paced as FIFA is.

Maybe they hold better defensive lines and are more aware when covering defensively, but two other positioning flaws are present in both games. One, it's still too common for a striker to receive an easy pass to feet in the centre of the pitch, facilitating and encouraging an unrealistic amount of forward passing. Maybe this is not as bad in PES as in FIFA (couldn't be worse), but the video on the previous page suggests it's still there.

Two, there's no midfield shape (defensively) in either game. Just a mess of people running around. You never, ever see this:



Sevilla's 442/4411 formation is clearly evident there during open play. It required some very sharp and inventive movement by Pedro and Dani Alves to create space in behind the Sevilla left back shortly after that screenshot.

One positioning flaw that PES appears to have that FIFA doesn't, is the way that PES AI players are scared of the sidelines. Everything looks crammed within the width of the penalty areas. FIFA's AI uses the full width of the pitch more realistically (although it is far too obsessed with crossing the ball, but that's a separate issue).

PES also looks just as one-paced as FIFA, again solely judging by that video on the previous page. Everything is done at full speed and with a forward tilt.

Throw in the manual controls of FIFA and I'm still not sharing the PES optimism at this stage, personally. Just my observations, and again I stress that it is without having played PES recently.
Click to expand...
You are correct. They both suffer from it.
 
I know you were talking tactics but if i'm going to be honest i'd still say the pace of Spanish football is better mirrored in Pes than Fifa. In Spanish football you tend to have more time on the ball because opponents don't constantly press for instance. I don't think it is perfectly mirrored in PES but it does it much more so than Fifa.

On the other hand...I watched some grueling Carling Cup match on Sky Sports last night and i must say it was frenetic, fast pace, rough, tackles a plenty and really played like Fifa tends to. It may well have been the Accrington Stanley match. It struck me straight away how similar it was to Fifa.

So perhaps which game you enjoy most will happen to fall hand in hand with which type of football you prefer.
 
Last edited:
Good post, northzz. But it's EA's job to make sure that different leagues/competitions feel different otherwise what's the point in having the licence?
 
I still think that players with even zero fatigue levels should be able to perform random bursts of speed (but not in quick succession). Attributes or traits will then determine the length of these zero-fatigue bursts from half a second to a few.

Northzzz said:
So perhaps which game you enjoy most will happen to fall hand in hand with which type of football you prefer.
Click to expand...
Yep, both games gravitate towards to only one type of football but it's a realistic type nonetheless. Either game still doesn't quite cover the wide spectrum of football styles and while there's a general speed setting to play with, aggression sliders only exist in custom tactics that apply only to your team.
 
nerf said:
Two, there's no midfield shape (defensively) in either game. Just a mess of people running around. You never, ever see this:

Click to expand...
In defence of PES, I'm not sure many people play two banks of four in PES 2011 so you wouldn't see this anyway. That said, there is definitely a bit of an issue with the beta where players seem unconcerned by passes travelling only a yard to their side and otherwise just letting the ball past them, speeding the game right up and encouraging you to move forwards more than you otherwise might. The pace of matches once you get up to the higher divisions and face top echelons of footballers is too fast again. -1 will be the speed of choice for enthusiasts.
 
adelante said:
Either game still doesn't quite cover the wide spectrum of football styles and while there's a general speed setting to play with, aggression sliders only exist in custom tactics that apply only to your team.
Click to expand...

You can use custom tactics for other teams aswell. I set up about 10 "generic" custom styles for fifa10 (long ball, counter on the wings, possesion, etc) and that did at a decent amount of character to the league.

However the MM was such a mess and player individuality meaningless that it overruled the tactics somewhat to make games too generic. Also the lack of serious AI in games (so actually having two banks of 4) never materialised.

Hope the new version will allow that to be more the case, but I think EA just haven't got the AI to an intelligence yet that they can play that way and utilise player qualities. Instead it seems far more a case of an overriding generic playstyle, which only differs in execution due to player/team quality.
 
Nick Cave said:
Has this been posted?...
Click to expand...

Is it just me or does this vid really not tell us much? Basically all it's telling us is how stamina and fatigue work IRL and how it theoretically should work in the game, but without examples taken from gameplay, it seems fairly meaningless. Anyone remember the similar vid first showing off PP?

Gab_ said:
True. If they made ball control (each touch) error based it would be awesome combined with this system. So not only is the player slower, but his control of the ball would have more (possible) error. I'll become a fanboy for the game that is first to implement this.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! Just like how the crappy form system causes a percentage decrease of attributes, tired players should see their agility, jumping, etc decrease.

nerf said:
For me, judging only from the videos of PES11 that I've seen (and I haven't played the series since 2008), PES looks almost as positionally chaotic and one-paced as FIFA is.
Click to expand...

Great points you made - PES is looking a little too frantic for my tastes too. That said, I still think it looks very promising and I have confidence in the franchise for the first time in years.

TikTikTikTikTik said:
However the MM was such a mess and player individuality meaningless that it overruled the tactics somewhat to make games too generic. Also the lack of serious AI in games (so actually having two banks of 4) never materialised.
Click to expand...

Totally agree: just as important as player individuality (P+) is team uniqueness. They've said giving players individuality will do this but I'm not convinced.
 
kouroux said:
Let's continue as spoiler as I don't wanna ruin this thread for others.
haha the funny thing is that you assume I haven't seen him enough.I must have practically watched every single match of Gourcuff since his Rennes days to last week against PSG.
Season reviews will show you nothing if you wanna see the real value of a player.It's funny you're ready (rightly) to use the injury excuse as a possible explanation to his bad form but not also do it for A.Diarra whose absence was more felt by Bordeaux each time he was out.

I'm not saying that Gourcuff isn't a good player, just that he is just another Zidane wannabe.He has a pretty face his father is loved among the media segments and he's a decent/good footballer.You have perfect ingredients combined to have an overrated/hyped player who wasn't in truth the best Bordeaux player in their title winning side like you said.
I'm not saying that out of nowhere, it's just common knowledge between long time Bordeaux supporters I often talk football with.The truth is that if you wanna know what his former fans really think of him then you might be really surprised.
Click to expand...

When I said the best of those three, I mean't of Carrasso, Diarra, and Chamakh. I'm still of the mindset that Chamakh really isn't that great a talent up front and a lot of his success was a result of Gourcuff's distribution, though Chamakh is quite althetic.

I've heard it quite a bit though and to be honest it always seems to be that way with a pocket of a team's supporters. There's always the golden boy that, for one reason or another, some of his team's own fans don't like. He'd only been there for two seasons. In one of then he carried the team, and in the other, he (along with the rest of them) underwhelmed. If that's all it takes for a guy to become overrated then so be it.

Ryuga-san said:
Exactly, there is nothing more to add. As a French who follows the Ligue 1, I can just confirm kouroux' words !
Gourcuff is a good player, but he's a bit overrated. He's a promising player but isn't such a good playmaker.
Gourcuff isn't properly a playmaker as Zidane or Platini, he is not a number 10. His long pass accuracy allows him to play as Pirlo or Xavi.
By the way, Murkurial, Gourcuff didn't "make" Chamakh LOL. Chamakh was a good player way before Gourcuff came to Bordeaux...And please, don't tell me "you've not seen him enough etc etc", I've been following Ligue 1 for more than 10 years...
Click to expand...

And that's great but 10, 11, and then 7, 7, and 8 goals in a season for as striker isn't exactly lighting it up. Blanc apparently didn't think too highly of him at first, giving more time to Bellion that Marouane but I just feel like him stepping his performances up seemed to coincide with Gourcuff joining the squad in 08.

We'll see what Chamakh does in England but even when Arsene showed interest in him I was wondering what he was basing it on. He's an alright player but I think his "arrival," so to speak was thanks in part to Bordeaux's title run, which was undoubtedly bouyed by Blanc's management, their team defense, and (and I guess this is where we differ) Yoann's influence...everywhere on the pitch.

As far as following Ligue Un for 10 years, then you'd know how average Chamakh was back in the day and I don't see what that 10 years has to do with the last 2, which is really when Gourcuff began to come to the fore.

kouroux said:
thank you.I mean it's not a harsh criticism to say he's been overhyped.I think he has enough potential to become a cracking player one day but so far it's been more hype than actual consistent performances.He'll mature and get better I think but right now he isn't.
@Murkurial: sorry.I never intended to have a long debate like this and don't think the "haha" I posted badly
Click to expand...

No worries on the "haha," I actually didn't even see it.

And I didn't consider it harsh criticism. I've heard the "overrated" chants since the WC and have seen the revisionist history in full effect. It's fine if someone feels that way but if I say that I think a guy is pretty good and then someone says he's "overrated," I might respond.

For the record I think I said "really good French playmaker" and not "world beater," although I think he can be that (some may argue that that's what I mean't by that). I had a feeling where the conversation would head when someone had to jump in an call him overrated though. If that's the case Nasri, Ben Arfa, Ribery, all the "next-Zidane"'s must've been hated by French supporters as well. Might as well not give a guy that tag as it appears that it can only mean shouts of "overrated" from the rooftops.
 
Just to copy my thoughts on the stamina in the video:

There are two critically missing elements to the information in this video, which makes it hard to make a full assessment. It's a pity there isn't a third part to show how fast a player loses his longterm bar - you can see a clear difference between the best and worst player (presumably a 99 stamina and a 1 stamina player respectively), but it's not easy to quantify.

Without knowing this its hard to know how relevant this all is. If the game is still like FIFA 10 where it's pretty much impossible to get to really low stamina even if you're running all the time. In FIFA 10, when controlling the whole team even if pressuring a huge amount it would be hard to get your bar as far as many of the test subjects would have.

With the playtest, even when I was trying to pressure very heavily I did not find them getting down much below the third mark on the white bar - and to be honest if you just take the bottom 6 players, the difference between them is really not that substantial. It just doesn't quite seem punishing enough. I still don't think that this will make me want to make a substitution to take off a better, but tired player and replace him with a lesser, but fresher player - because unless I do literally get him down to the point where he has no stamina left at all, the actual difference isn't that high. It's only in that final sector - the ones with no, 10, or 20% stamina there seems to be a really significant change over a half pitch run.

To me, a difference of around 1.75 seconds on a 10.5 second run (half pitch run) seems a bit weak - around a 16% difference. In all honesty, a 16% difference in running pace seems unlikely to warn people away, especially as the actual chance in an online match of having a player anywhere near full fatigue is practically 0 unless something has radically changed since the Emirates Build.

I don't know if it's just a different mentality of what I want to see with full fatigue than what EA wants - becuase personally I want a player with full fatigue to be a total liability. I want to be playing a game where even if I don't play fast I'm making my substitutions because it is seriously beneficial. The player who is around 70% fatigued, (ie, has 30% of his bar left give or take - presuming they are on 100, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 90 and 100% whitebar), recieves no more than 0.7 seconds of increase over the 10.5 second run, and I'm not sure if even when I was pressuring all the time I ever got my players below the third mark.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see EA have made progess here and that they are really trying to do things with it - and I'm delighted to finally see this video.. but these would be my immediate, highly presumptuous concerns.
 
Rodelero said:
There are two critically missing elements to the information in this video, which makes it hard to make a full assessment. It's a pity there isn't a third part to show how fast a player loses his longterm bar - you can see a clear difference between the best and worst player (presumably a 99 stamina and a 1 stamina player respectively), but it's not easy to quantify.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see EA have made progess here and that they are really trying to do things with it - and I'm delighted to finally see this video.. but these would be my immediate, highly presumptuous concerns.
Click to expand...

I don't find anything wrong with what you said. From the looks of this video I don't think stamina is anywhere near punishing enough.

For most of the pressure abusers online I don't think any of them really press with one player over the length of the pitch. As you said, the longterm bar has to be depleted much more quickly when using turbo in order for this to work, otherwise frequently holding A or B, or rushing 4-5 yards at a guy to try and dispossess a man, having him pass to another player, then selecting another of your defenders and doing the same thing probably won't even come close to having the same sort of effect at the end of the game as that demo showed.

Conversely, I wouldn't want it to be tweaked so much so that everyone is dead near the end of the match no matter what you do.

Also, after a full sprint across the pitch there's no way that stamina should be replenished so quickly even for the 100 stamina player (not sure if any players in the game will come close to that but the difference between him and the 5-6 guys above him wasn't big enough anyway).
 
Does the stamina part mean what they have in the attribute? Or is it something that gradually goes down in the game? I guess it's the later, otherwise it wouldn't represent the game because I can only assume that no one in the game have under 50 in the stamina attribute.
 
Rodelero said:
I still don't think that this will make me want to make a substitution to take off a better, but tired player and replace him with a lesser, but fresher player - because unless I do literally get him down to the point where he has no stamina left at all, the actual difference isn't that high.

...

I don't know if it's just a different mentality of what I want to see with full fatigue than what EA wants - becuase personally I want a player with full fatigue to be a total liability. I want to be playing a game where even if I don't play fast I'm making my substitutions because it is seriously beneficial.
Click to expand...

I want to reiterate what Gab said earlier and which I've already mentioned because I think it's critical: a player's running ability is but one ability that should be affected by fatigue and if other attributes are left at max effectiveness then the overall system is massively incomplete.

Like you said, the system should give you an incentive to put on a lesser player, but consider: if I'm down by a goal and even if Drogba is fatigued enough that he is far from top speed, if his strength, heading, ball control, movement, and finishing are not changed, there's a good chance I wouldn't replace him because he still could play an effective role. Now if not only is his pace down but also his accuracy, movement, and ball control, then I might be more likely to replace him with Sturridge.
 
Last edited:
mfmaxpower said:
I want to reiterate what Gab said earlier and which I've already mentioned because I think it's critical: a player's running ability is but one ability that should be affected by fatigue and if other attributes are left at max effectiveness then the overall system is massively incomplete.

Like you said, the system should give you an incentive to put on a lesser player, but consider: if I'm down by a goal and even if Drogba is fatigued enough that he is far from top speed, if his strength, heading, ball control, movement, and finishing are not changed, there's a good chance I wouldn't replace him because he still could play an effective role. Now if not only is his pace down but also his accuracy, movement, and ball control, then I might be more likely to replace him with Sturridge.
Click to expand...
Exactly. I'm sure EA knows this is what we want right?
 
ant0n said:
Exactly. I'm sure EA knows this is what we want right?
Click to expand...

As was mentioned on the other forums, considering this is the year FIFA is meant to be about more than just strength and speed (P+ anyone?), it'd be (sadly) ironic if the new fatigue system does not influence all those "other" attributes.
 
Tnx,

Have a fatigue test if you can manage it and see if constant pressuring/sprinting knackeres your players. It shouldnt matter whether the match is a 3min or 6min one, it should be relative to the 90min in-game. If it doesn't happen it means it's pointless.
 
I played it at Gamerbase Manchester today.

I thought that the game speed was fine. However my two big concerns are that the passing was still very much ping pong and everyone I played against was able to hold down X and sprint around all over the place and pressure me. I did notice that the stamina bar for these players was quite low during the last 10 minutes but didn't seem to have to much of an effect. It is difficult to judge because we were playing the demo so it was only 2 halves of 3 minutes. I also noticed that the game is till way to much in favor of big physical players, skillful players like Villa get pushed off the ball very easily.

The positives are that graphically the game looks much better, love the way stats pop during the match. Also shooting is much much better, able to shoot low and high and scored a variety of goals. The animations are also superb, they have put in a lot of new ones.

I will buy this game if the career mode doesn't have the bugs that FIFA 10 manager mode had. Clear to see that EA have made a lot of changes, but they from this playtest for me this feels like FIFA 10.8 rather than FIFA 11. However, it is unfair to judge the game to much because we were playing the demo which is very limited.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom