FIFA 09 PS3/360 Discussion Thread

Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

response time for me means:
I press a button, the player performs an action immediately.

How and what kind of action is done should be dependend to the player's stats, e.g.:
- leftfooted player, ball is located on the right foot -> when WEAK FOOT FREQUENCY is set to HIGH: player shoots with right foot, poor shoot quality. When WEAK FOOT FREQUENCY is low, player moves ball to left foot, then shoots -> one more animation

- I press shoot in an aerial situation, player performs an header/one timer (FIFA08: player traps the ball, does another step, then shoots)

high response time shouldn't mean unrealistic moves/passes...
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

Why cant EA get the appearance of power right on headers?.All the headers I have seen in the vids are so lifeless.The players seem to struggle to jump and get some real neck movement and power behind the ball, it sorts of hits them rather than the player leaping to make good conact.I think this only enhances the floaty appearance in some of the air shots.

Shooting looked like it had a bit more power to me, so thats a very good thing.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

yeah..agree with u jeblo.. ^^ sometimes in 08 player took so many time just to perform a pass which i conducted few seconds before and because of the slow responsive the pass become a blunder.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

hey guys, give ea a break. I think what they have acheived in the last 12 months is staggering. Like the guys said on the podcast, people dont really appreciate what goes on in making these next gen games. Like what pro evo did with the ps2 ea are going to do with the next gen. That is tweaking every year to rectify things. It worked with evo and im sure it will work with fifa. They have the engine in place. Think we should all just take a step back and think and praise their hard work. They have really tried this year and have addressed a lot of issues us gamers had. They cant fix it all in 12 months.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

Lami said:
Just thought of this:

Why is it that some people think slow response relates to realism? The faster it is the more arcady it tends to be?

Personally, I think response times should be related to when you press the button, things should work. If it didn't or is slow then we have a problem. But at the same time, we don't want a ping-ponger of a game. So I think the solution to that would be:

Instead of having slow response, fiddle around with the player's technique attribute. What I mean is, not all players should have the same quickness and technique trapping a ball and turning. For example, obviously Ronaldo should be quick with his ball skills and technique, like Robinho too. But someone like Campbell, Senderos or Vidic should be much slower when receiving a pass, controlling it, then turning and moving.

If one of them defenders receive a pass, they take more time to trap it, make the wrong move and might knock it bit longer than intended, then maybe a lurking opposition races for it, the defender barely gets to it, opposition slightly quicker than the defender you're controlling, so you press the bass button hoping you get to the ball before he does but end up flat on the pitch or possibly causing a FK.

Now that can happen when pressing the button and the defender responding quickly to your input, but due to his lack of quickness in his attribute, or even lack of ball trapping and technique, he might fail doing so.

Here we can have the best of both worlds, button responsiveness and realistic player attributes. This would lead us to being careful with such players and not just run about carelessly.

I'm not sure I explained this correctly but I hope my point got through without boring anyone :)
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Well, response time is the time it takes from you pressing the pass button, to the boot of the player making contact with the ball, for example.

Too quick response times will necessitate physics "cheating".
By that I mean that the player might, at the time you press the pass button, be supporting all his weight on the leg he will be using to pass, and thus to have a very quick reaction, the game will need to "cheat" in order to allow the player to use his supporting leg to perform the pass.


In this also comes the concept of "anticipation". A human being who is anticipating a move can perform it alot faster than a unprepared human, even though they are in the same position and such. Being prepared allows you to prepare the use of the correct muscles, and the reaction times would be alot faster than if someone suddenly kicked a ball towards you and told you to kick it or head it etc.


Usually, since the concept of "anticipation" is a natural occurence which allows fast reaction times without cheating physics, wise, it would be better to design all animations to have the reaction times of a human which is always prepared to do anything as quickly as possible.

BUT, the realism suffers alot when you have defenders constantly acting like they know exactly what you are going to do.

It's kind of hard to dribble an opponent who can react to any move like they knew exactly what you were going to do, if you know what I mean. It would mean that you can never catch anyone on the wrong foot or similarly, since they would always be "anticipating" your move, and thus would be ready to switch their weight without a moments notice, no matter what you do.


So for realism, catching people on the wrong foot and players having a "handicap" of having their weight on a leg etc, has to be included if you want realism.

But, that does mean that a player might not always be able to pass as soon as you press the button, since he might have all his weight on his leg and needs to support himself properly with it before he can use his other leg for support, and thus can free up his passing leg for something other than supporting his weight.



Obviously, player stats come in here. A player who is faster and such would be able to switch his weight faster and thus react faster to certain situations. Response time is only element, but still an important one.

PES is used as an example of good response times, but PES also constantly cheat alot when it comes to physics. Players switch legs mid-movement in a manner where a normal human would be in a heap on the ground. PES has too unreal response times, FIFA08 was slightly too slow. UEFA08 was very good as far as movement and actions etc, but the overall game was kinda off. FIFA09 looks very promising, and it looks like they will have the maximum response time possible without cheating too much.

And, PES5 is still the game when you want to see a good system for differentiating between good and bad players.
The better players rarely make mistakes when trapping the ball, while poor stat players sometimes mistime their trap and the ball bounces in all kinds of directions and you need to chase after the ball and get it again. Which is what you describe Lami. :)
 
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Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

The Italian version for 360 only had Italian, Spanish and French. So maybe all non UK versions don't include English?
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Thats why I was hoping foreign ps3 owners could anwser the question. Ferraritim seems to be in the uk, any foreigners with fifa08 for the ps3 in here?
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

in all the vids i have seen so far the response times look to be ok. Maybe its not when you are actually playing and in control but it comes across ok on the screen.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

Please people try to separate different things.

One thing is control responsiveness. Of course, when you press a button the engine should inmediately do something about. Tha generally would mean that the player in control should TRY to accompllish what are you ordering.

The other part of the equation is the action times or reaction times, however you want to call it. This should be a mix of things. For instance, if your player has just knocked the ball ahead, he could NOT try to pass it until he reaches the ball again. That happens in Euro and I feel it's great and some people still says it's unacceptable because it means slow responsiveness.

There's another important factor that must be counted. Being the controls really deep, there are buttons that depending on how you press them, the frequency or the combination with other buttons result in very different actions or orders. That implies that the engine CAN'T respond instanteneously because there's a little fraction of time that the system is trying to recongize your orders.

And another factor in. Controls can be downward silly or try to have some depth. In Fifa playing the game in Manual or almost manual, there's a lot of skill required by the player to achieve things. And you must TIME your actions well if you want to. That implies that the player must perform more things with controls to execute things. It's great to have a lot of modifiers to the shot, for example, but also implies more things to recognize byt the engine and different results depending on the rest of factors (balance, stats, ball direction, power, etc...). So, it's obvious that MORE depth in controls ask for a litle slower gameplay and losing that minimal fraction of responsiveness by the engine. Play Top Spin 3 and you'll see it (tennis is a more simple game than football, it's great to show people about timing, control depth, stats, reaction times, etc...).

But after all this, then it comes the real thing: people simply want his player to trap the ball, pass it, shoot, control it in the minimum possible time. Well, look what happened with pes going this way. People talks about player SKILLS most of the times when we are discussing reaction times. Euro had really good reaction times, it was simply that all players were slow in trapping and maneuvering. I don't want all players to be light-fast, to trap any ball in any situation, to do 30 meters low passes accurately to the feet of the receiver. Hell, I don't want the players to perform first time touches well! Just like tricks, even a player like Ronaldo only goes past a defender doing a trick once every what... 6, 7 times? I still remember the CL semifinals, he didn't succeed in a single dribbling in 180 minutes!

So, I would be really more worried about trying to reflect real world skill and accuracy. That or introduce something to make the process of trapping and maneuvering with the ball a real hard task requiring lots of control by the user.

PS: Generally, PES hardcore fans are most critical with the response times, but maybe they should understand how PES has gone past the non-returning point refering to response times.
 
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Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

WILDSTER180774 said:
also placebo, as your in the know, has the manager cutscenes as seen in euro2008 been implemented in 09? i qutie like them but i know some dont
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TBH I'm not sure about manager cutscenes, considering the huge amount of teams it's possibly not feasible, would be nice if at least you can create yourself as manager for manager mode and show important moments in cutscene but EA have put no effort into manager mode this year so it's unlikely.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

Minor, but imo stupid, thing I noticed thats also in PES is the confetti in the air when the players walk on the pitch. In Italy-France (video), it shows confetti falling over the middle of the pitch..... But the passing looks good so far.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

Placebo said:
TBH I'm not sure about manager cutscenes, considering the huge amount of teams it's possibly not feasible, would be nice if at least you can create yourself as manager for manager mode and show important moments in cutscene but EA have put no effort into manager mode this year so it's unlikely.
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thats a shame. Understand the amount of teams would make it impossible but maybe they could of implemented it for the top teams. Maybe the top 4 teams in every Country. Never played the manager mode in Fifa08. Was a Evo fan boy then and only crossed over with Euro2008 but your suggestion sounds good.

David Rutter said that face recognition as in Tiger Woods is high on their list of inclusions for further releases which is great to hear.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

Milanista said:
Minor, but imo stupid, thing I noticed thats also in PES is the confetti in the air when the players walk on the pitch. In Italy-France (video), it shows confetti falling over the middle of the pitch..... But the passing looks good so far.
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whats wrong with the confetti, i think its a nice touch. Its probably only in certain games. David Rutter said that they have different on screen graphics etc for different stadia/country to give it an international feel. Scarves etc in England and huge flags and banners for S America and so on.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

Its very unrealistic. There are times where it looks like its falling from the sky. imo I don't think its even needed in the game.

For example:

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d22521e5f5e5b7c60028cd9638642289.png
 
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Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

drekkard said:
Please people try to separate different things.

One thing is control responsiveness. Of course, when you press a button the engine should inmediately do something about. Tha generally would mean that the player in control should TRY to accompllish what are you ordering.

That's not always true. If your player is running onto the ball, you would probably start powering up the shot early to let the player take a few steps and really be able to power up for a shot. The way you describe it, that would instead lead to the player reaching forward and toeing the ball forward instead, as soon as he is within range of the ball.
The game should't always try and accomplish your ordered action as fast as possible, since most of the time, the player doing something too fast means he will do it half-assed or weakly.
Which is why we have modifiers like Control shot to show what we want. If I am not holding control shot, that would signal that I want to do a hard shot, and then powering up early should not have the player trying to perform the action as quickly as possible, but instead with maximum force, compromising a quick response for power.


The other part of the equation is the action times or reaction times, however you want to call it. This should be a mix of things. For instance, if your player has just knocked the ball ahead, he could NOT try to pass it until he reaches the ball again. That happens in Euro and I feel it's great and some people still says it's unacceptable because it means slow responsiveness.

I'm not sure what you mean. If the player knocks the ball ahead so that he can't physically reach the ball, why would anyone expect the player to be able to pass? Seems kind of unreasonable to ask for that. ;)

There's another important factor that must be counted. Being the controls really deep, there are buttons that depending on how you press them, the frequency or the combination with other buttons result in very different actions or orders. That implies that the engine CAN'T respond instanteneously because there's a little fraction of time that the system is trying to recongize your orders.

I'd say that is wrong. Just because you order a Control Shot rather than a normal shot, the game isn't going to take alot longer time to know what you pressed just because you press 2 buttons rather than 1. The calculation time for these aspects is completely negligible, milliseconds at most, probably not even that, electrons move quite fast. Just consider the 50-100ms ping delay for sending data across half the world. Sending data from the gamepad to the Xbox will be alot faster. ;)
That would more likely be the case for the analog stick which has aloooooot more data transfered than the digital buttons. And the system is designed to not have basically any delay between button input and the buttons being translated into the game.

And another factor in. Controls can be downward silly or try to have some depth. In Fifa playing the game in Manual or almost manual, there's a lot of skill required by the player to achieve things. And you must TIME your actions well if you want to. That implies that the player must perform more things with controls to execute things. It's great to have a lot of modifiers to the shot, for example, but also implies more things to recognize byt the engine and different results depending on the rest of factors (balance, stats, ball direction, power, etc...). So, it's obvious that MORE depth in controls ask for a litle slower gameplay and losing that minimal fraction of responsiveness by the engine. Play Top Spin 3 and you'll see it (tennis is a more simple game than football, it's great to show people about timing, control depth, stats, reaction times, etc...).

Again, I have to disagree. The game knows pretty much instantly what buttons you pressed, and it will also basically instantly execute the right code for what you pressed.

Example: When you go through the menu and press A to advance to the next screen, you don't experience a delay between the button press and the animation on screen. That is the inherent delay of the input device. And the calculations for control shot vs. normal shot aren't going to be much different in calculation time etc. It's just different code being executed.


But after all this, then it comes the real thing: people simply want his player to trap the ball, pass it, shoot, control it in the minimum possible time. Well, look what happened with pes going this way. People talks about player SKILLS most of the times when we are discussing reaction times. Euro had really good reaction times, it was simply that all players were slow in trapping and maneuvering. I don't want all players to be light-fast, to trap any ball in any situation, to do 30 meters low passes accurately to the feet of the receiver. Hell, I don't want the players to perform first time touches well! Just like tricks, even a player like Ronaldo only goes past a defender doing a trick once every what... 6, 7 times? I still remember the CL semifinals, he didn't succeed in a single dribbling in 180 minutes!


So, I would be really more worried about trying to reflect real world skill and accuracy. That or introduce something to make the process of trapping and maneuvering with the ball a real hard task requiring lots of control by the user.

PS: Generally, PES hardcore fans are most critical with the response times, but maybe they should understand how PES has gone past the non-returning point refering to response times.
Click to expand...

Bold text.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

drekkard said:
...Play Top Spin 3 and you'll see it (tennis is a more simple game than football, it's great to show people about timing, control depth, stats, reaction times, etc...)...
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Top Spin3 is very good example ! I'd like to see a similar balanced mix of attributes and gaming skill in a football game.

e.g. passing/shooting:
I'm playing UEFA/FIFA on manual. Sometimes too much skill is needed to play accurate short passes. After learning FIFA/UEFA manual controls, PES' passing/shooting feels too accurate(->arcadey), FIFA's semi/auto is even worse (unfortunately too many online gamers still use one of these...)
-> something between FIFA's manual (which is assisted, too) and PESesque passing would be perfect...
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

I am not worried about Ronaldo been amazing as he should be... Custom Formations are there to stop players been heavily

abused/useful

7 days until I am off to leipzig :)
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

jeblo05 said:
manual is slightly assisted, else it wouldn't work...
semi <-> PES style
auto <-> PES2008 style ;)
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You will have to go into more detail.

Why would it not work. The concept of manual aim/manual power works perfectly obviously, since games like Football Kingdom, ISS98 etc have used them. Real life is analog, and football works well there. ;)

So you need to clarify I think.


Also all PES games so far have been completely automatic. You have a base aim of 8 directions, but apart from those the game decides where it will aim, who it will try and pass to etc. it is the exact same concept between PES5/6 and PES2008. 8 directions, and then the game makes all the decisions from there.
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

On euro 2008 i have been using assisted passing. Is manual something i should really try and work with. Does it improve the game etc? On 09 that is
 
Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

stilts1844 said:
Young gunz, i have a question about passing, number one did you find it being too accurate, especially in off balance situations?

#2 a lot of people have been talking about player individuality and attributes and EA seem to have put a lot of emphasis on this this year, but has this translated to passing as well? I felt that passing was the least represented part of attributes in fifa and Euro. So for example if you're controlling pirlo or carrick do you feel the difference in their passing ability? and by that i mean a noticeable difference, there should be as much a difference in someone like pirlo's passing with other players as there is with ronaldo's dribbling. I read somewhere that there would be passes that would curl around players if passed by a player with good attributes (not just crosses/corners) did u see any of this?
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Well personally i didnt find the passing to accurate in 08, I thought the passing was fine. and there are situations where certain players can curl their pass's around players such as Scholes/Pirlo/Fabregas for example. also when you pass with these the pass's seem to zip more than others i found.

TikTikTikTikTik said:
@ Younggun;

How did you find the heading, just watched the new-che video and the viduka header looked good. Proper challenge and movement. Did you find this good aswell, 08/euro it was always a bit static (players already in position and jumping up instead of forward towards the ball).
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You just reminded me of a great moment in one of the games. There is clearly been a improvement with the headers now, due to the collision system and also the header animations. the biggest improvement was the players going for the headers though, There was a certain situation where i had broke away on the wing yet there wasnt much support in the box yet i thought i'd still put the ball and a player came charging in and also dived fully to try to get his head onto it, in the end it just skimmed his head and went out for a goal kick but in 08 there would be no way the player would have got near the cross.
 
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Re: FIFA 09 - Discussion Thread

David Rutter has mentioned in one of the producers' videos free 360° control would be easy to implement, but it wouldn't work in practice. I don't think this is meant to affect player movement only...

Also I don't think I have that great skills on the analogue sticks, but passing/shooting still is 80% accurate ;)

PES has free passing, too (right stick) It feels "more manual" than FIFA. I'm not able to do even one successful pass!
 
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