eFootball PES 2021 Discussion Thread (CONSOLES)

StrangelyEnough said:
If you take pes on the ps2 as a example..It was one game optimised and refined to the point of near perfection..but that took six years..Each iteration was a update with smaller refinements.They were also constantly adding the smaller cosmetic details every year.
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So what you're saying is... Every modern PES release has done too much each year, if anything...?!
 
Chris Davies said:
So what you're saying is... Every modern PES release has done too much each year, if anything...?!
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Not enough..And I’m surprised some of the iterations have been as good as they have..That is a reflection of there skill and experience.

They just haven’t settled on one core and thought,let’s make this the best we can over a five year period.Its changed so radically that the development window isn’t long enough for new systems to be fully fleshed out and properly synchronised with older systems.Things get cut and it just becomes about releasing something that can be the best it can in that time frame.

Not only has the gameplay suffered but also the modes and overall presentation because of it.
 
Filippo-Inzaghi said:
I would like to offer you an exciting opportunity at Konami headquarters. We need an Brand Development Social Media Expert at the Season Update, PES Game mate.

We would like to inform you that you are the chosen one especially because of your perfect fit in the Konami team. We see you as a great match in the daily operations having a background on a Pro Evo Forum. We're a bunch of people all having that background.
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Dude,if you knew me in real life you would not be thinking that..I’m probably the hardest gamer to please..

I just see things from a different angle and like a lot about pes20..Never meant I couldn’t see the flaws,just what it could be if it had been fleshed out more.

I just said pes21 is pes20 with a bit more development and a lot more optimisation.I never considered that a glowing review😀

I really like it..and 35 euros for two copies(one for a mate)will keep me content until 22.There will be a few people on here that didn’t warm completely to pes20 that will enjoy this✌..Love your sense of irony though😀
 
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Filippo-Inzaghi said:
I would like to offer you an exciting opportunity at Konami headquarters. We need an Brand Development Social Media Expert at the Season Update, PES Game mate.

We would like to inform you that you are the chosen one especially because of your perfect fit in the Konami team. We see you as a great match in the daily operations having a background on a Pro Evo Forum. We're a bunch of people all having that background.
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almost spit my wodka coke by reading this :LMAO:
 
Chris Davies said:
Agree, but it's whether that will translate to lower sales. Probably not, because people love the sport, and want to "play along" each season, and there's no better alternative. So if you're 2K, why would you listen to the reviews when you're making more money (because everyone still buys it, but more people are forced down the microtransactions route)?

Exact same situation with FIFA right now. Lowest ever scores, highest ever sales!

There is a huge hole for a more sim-based football game right now (and the same applies to tons of other sports). But will people buy it if it doesn't have their favourite teams in it, and/or if the graphics are nowhere near as impressive? Probably not. You and I would, but that wouldn't pay their bills.

It just feels like doom...
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Realistically speaking, PES 2022 is the last shot for a footy sim IMO Chris.

If they don't nail it, then unfortunately the hardcore offline guys have three options.

1) Don't buy/play these games and move on

2) Accept these games for what they are and try to enjoy them for what they are because we love football

This is where I am currently at with footy games. With Fifa, I think it sucks, but I play pro clubs with friends and enjoy it for what it is. With PES, I am a few seasons in my ML and while the A.I. is still crappy, I enjoy buying young players and getting them to improve and I think one strong area in pes is the player I.D. and player traits and play styles. Putting a team together utilizing all of that is enjoyable for me-- to an extent-- and it gets my occasional footy fix in.

3) Last, we just keep bitching and moaning and saying the same things year after year and be let down and unhappy year after year. Thats the main reason we stopped doing the Footy United podcasts. We were saying the same stuff over and over again and it gets exhausting and we just were burnt out with being unhappy with these games.

I know you are trying to fight the good fight Chris! I admire your diligence
 
StrangelyEnough said:
They just haven’t settled on one core and thought,let’s make this the best we can over a five year period.
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That "core" is what you see (and feel) in every PES of the last ~10 years, when e.g. playing the best teams and your input response is halved (and it feels like your players are on morphine), or when your player has a "hitch" in his run animation so that the AI player gets there first, or when you press shoot and there's an inexplicable delay so that the defender can block the shot, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...

I can provide videos of the above from all the PES games I have, seriously.

They absolutely have "settled on one core", and that's why I can't bloody wait for PES 2022. The core is rotten. PES is an apple! (Oh not another fucking analogy...)
 
Chris Davies said:
That "core" is what you see (and feel) in every PES of the last ~10 years, when e.g. playing the best teams and your input response is halved (and it feels like your players are on morphine), or when your player has a "hitch" in his run animation so that the AI player gets there first, or when you press shoot and there's an inexplicable delay so that the defender can block the shot, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...

I can provide videos of the above from all the PES games I have, seriously.

They absolutely have "settled on one core", and that's why I can't bloody wait for PES 2022. The core is rotten. PES is an apple! (Oh not another fucking analogy...)
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Thank you for reinforcing my points..All the points you highlight are examples of a unfinished game.One where a developer has to cut corners to balance a game or hide the limitations of its design..😉

It’s not technology that’s going to make pes better,it’s time..

The other game has done just this for almost two generations and although the gameplay now is not what anyone would call realistic.(Thats more implementation or cutting a games ball off)..There’s no doubt fifa has the framework now to very easily do all the things that would make it a true sim.Ea just choose to turn it all off.
 
StrangelyEnough said:
Thank you for reinforcing my points..All the points you highlight are examples of a unfinished game.One where a developer has to cut corners to balance a game or hide the limitations of its design..😉

It’s not technology that’s going to make pes better,it’s time..

The other game has done just this for almost two generations and although the gameplay now is not what anyone would call realistic..(Thats more implementation or cutting a games ball off)..Because there’s no doubt fifa has the framework now to very easily do all the things that would make it a true sim.Ea just choose to turn it all off.
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So with the increased responsiveness you said you experienced in PES21, are the issues that Chris refers to reduced at all?
 
StrangelyEnough said:
Thank you for reinforcing my points..All the points you highlight are examples of a unfinished game.One where a developer has to cut corners to balance a game or hide the limitations
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So, what you are trying to say here for the last few pages, is that all current PES games had CORE issues that werent fixed for 10 years...... and NOW, this one time, when Konami said they wont be making any changes - they fixed everything!
Coz thats how they fucking love surprises!! :LOL: :LOL:

And - if it was such a simple fix, a matter of tweaking this and that - how come that didnt happen with any Data Pack throughout the year?
Coz they needed these extra two months, working from home during Covid pandemic? :LOL:
 
Emroth..

No I’m saying they’ve polished pes20 into a better game..and if this had been released last year it would of felt more complete and finished(gameplay).Many of the frustrations both offensively and defensively are greatly improved through increased reaction time from the players and controller input..Everything is tighter and more responsive.

Collisions are more consistent and there’s less stop/start in the animation transitions.

I’ve had 2 exhibition matches and 10 or more 1vs1..I really like it!..and no you can’t patch in what they’ve done.

I will give you a much more detailed breakdown tomorrow when I’ve spent some time in the modes outside of exhibition and playing against a human...Cpu AI etc..Variation.

Im a offline player so I’m looking for a much better experience against the cpu..I will keep you posted.
 
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StrangelyEnough said:
and no you can’t patch in what they’ve done.
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But... it is a patch... :LOL:
It is literally called Season Update. Its no different to any Data Pack that came before it..
Do you really think they told public they will leave Pes20 to focus on Pes22 and then secretly reworked Pes20, without saying anything to anyone, risking losing customers who will give it a pass due to Pes21 being only an updated Pes20?

Like... where's the logic in that..?
 
StrangelyEnough said:
Emroth..

No I’m saying they’ve polished pes20 into a better game..and if this had been released last year it would of felt more complete and finished(gameplay).Many of the frustrations both offensively and defensively are greatly improved through increased reaction time from the players and controller input..Everything is tighter and more responsive.

Collisions are more consistent and there’s less stop/start in the animation transitions.

I’ve had 2 exhibition matches and 10 or more 1vs1..I really like it!..and no you can’t patch in what they’ve done.

I will give you a much more detailed breakdown tomorrow when I’ve spent some time in the modes outside of exhibition and playing against a human...Cpu AI etc..Variation.

Im a offline player so I’m looking for a much better experience against the cpu..I will keep you posted.
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Could you please comment on AI fouls , increased / decreased with this improved collision and any penalties for the user against the AI ?
 
Emroth said:
But... it is a patch... :LOL:
It is literally called Season Update. Its no different to any Data Pack that came before it..
Do you really think they told public they will leave Pes20 to focus on Pes22 and then secretly reworked Pes20, without saying anything to anyone, risking losing customers who will give it a pass due to Pes21 being only an updated Pes20?

Like... where's the logic in that..?
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They can't patch in stuff that someone's made up in their head.

Anyway, a Nigerian prince has just offered me a small fortune so I'm off to attend to it....I only need to send him £1000 to get my hands on it.
 
To give @StrangelyEnough the benefit of the doubt, After all games such as Winning Eleven 6 Final Evolution, Winning Eleven 7 International & of course Winning Eleven 9: Liveware Evolution are essentially the exact same game as their PES counterparts except with minor quality of life refinements and those are considered to be some of the finest PES games ever.

Now granted, PES 2020 isn't PES 5, But PES 5 wasn't perfect either and had it's issues and complaints back then. "If only they could fix the fouls, The responsiveness, The difficulty... It'd be the best PES ever made!" Well they did that with WE9:LE and it's often reflected on as PES's finest hour.

@StrangelyEnough is right though, PES 2020 isn't a bad PES by any means, It's the best compromise of arcade & simulation they've created on FOX but it just needs that extra refinement for it to be an acceptable if not great PES game especially to bow out of this generation on.

And if history's taught us anything, PES 5 to PES 6 were adored for being great swansongs for the PS2 gen despite being basically the same game; PES 2012 & PES 2013 once again very little discrepancy between them but the latter remains one of the company's best outputs before focusing on FOX...

Dare i say it what if... What if 2021 just needs that little bit of polish, Just enough and we'd all be contempt? They carried on ironing out the PS2 code until PES 2014 for that console and you could argue that those are even better than the widely worshipped PES 6.

I know history also teaches us that Konami are about as unpredictable as a monkey with a grenade with their philosophy when it comes to making these games, Sometimes it can seem like a PES lottery and who's even to say that PES 2022 on Unreal would even be the guaranteed saviour considering what happened before when they surprised their wives my bringing home a new engine?

How many of us decided 2008 & 2014 was unplayable and went back to the older "inferior game" from a year prior just for some reliable functionality?

I'm sure Konami will make it 3rd time a charm but worst case scenario, PES 2021 could even be what we'll be grateful for if that happens and if they have fixed 2020's issues then we'll be grateful for that too i guess.

If not then i'll just go back through the 20 year catalogue anyway, I'm not arsed either way.
 
Emroth said:
But... it is a patch... :LOL:
It is literally called Season Update. Its no different to any Data Pack that came before it..
Do you really think they told public they will leave Pes20 to focus on Pes22 and then secretly reworked Pes20, without saying anything to anyone, risking losing customers who will give it a pass due to Pes21 being only an updated Pes20?

Like... where's the logic in that..?
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The mystique of gaming is developers sometimes surprise us with the things they do😉..(anniversary year).

Enjoy your evening emroth..I’m off to enjoy some pes😘
 
As someone who really went off pes in a big way early this year, or even in november after downloading patches, I certainly have no real desire or excitement about pes 2021, and doubt I'll go anywhere near it. I think pes is stale and has virtually no tech in it, bar some nice animations, for.players and the ball. In fact, at times, I feel a certain level of contempt for how mediocre it is and wonder how anyone can enjoy it, but...

I do find the nature of the questioning of strangelyenough a bit much. Some of the sarcasm directed his way is a bit tedious, especially the tired old placebo allegations.

Placebo seems to be used as a catch all attack on anyone who sees something they do like, dont like, or sees something that is now better or worse. In my experience, pes 2020 changed quite wildly at times between data packs, mostly in a way I didnt like. The idea that those changes were simply placebo is a dubious contention, suggesting that i, or anyone else, was actively looking for a data pack to spoil positive aspects of pes 20, and even though it didnt, i or anyone else simply invented those changes for ourselves. Presumably, because I was looking for pes to become worse so I could stop having fun with a game I paid for.

One thing that needs to be considered, and its uncomfortable for us all, is that some of us are more sensitive to changes than others. I dont consider myself particular sensitive to them, I just tend to notice certain things while completely missing the positives or negatives pointed out by others, even if i try looking for them. In addition, our overall attitude to a game will have a huge impact on how objectively we assess the impact of a patch. If we are tired of pes, if we just think its stale as hell, subtle changes wont register as we'll be bored of it within seconds. That's happened to me pretty much since February.

Simply dismissing something as placebo, especially if its subjective, rather than objectively measurable things like the number of fouls, catchup bug, ability to wrong foot the AI using right stick, probably reveals more about ourselves than the person seeing whatever they're seeing.
 
PeterC10 said:
Was going to say the same, last couple of pages have been an uncomfortable read.
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FShas said:
I thought maybe I was being overly sensitive, glad it's not just me.

Generally, evo web is an incredibly kind place, especially compared to the rest of the internet.
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No, You're not alone, I felt like it was a bit of a ganging up on him too, Bit of a shame because we're normally more respectful about someone's thoughts here than other places. People should be more than welcome to voice their opinion's on a game whether we disagree or not, that's the sanctum of a forum.

We shouldn't be ridiculing someone and telling them they're wrong for feeling a certain way about a game they enjoyed.
 
I'm upset I am going to have to start my ML all over again lol :((

My current ML squad:

Strikers: Haaland, Ibra
Wingers: Pulisic, Sancho, Brandt, Pedrinho
AMF: Isco, Odegaard
CM: De Jong, Foden, Winks
DMF: Witzel, Camavinga
RB: Alexander-Arnold, Aurier
CB: M. Sarr, Sanchez, Kamara, Foyth
LB: Angelino, Davies
GK: Lloris, Gazzaniga
 
FShas said:
As someone who really went off pes in a big way early this year, or even in november after downloading patches, I certainly have no real desire or excitement about pes 2021, and doubt I'll go anywhere near it. I think pes is stale and has virtually no tech in it, bar some nice animations, for.players and the ball. In fact, at times, I feel a certain level of contempt for how mediocre it is and wonder how anyone can enjoy it, but...

I do find the nature of the questioning of strangelyenough a bit much. Some of the sarcasm directed his way is a bit tedious, especially the tired old placebo allegations.

Placebo seems to be used as a catch all attack on anyone who sees something they do like, dont like, or sees something that is now better or worse. In my experience, pes 2020 changed quite wildly at times between data packs, mostly in a way I didnt like. The idea that those changes were simply placebo is a dubious contention, suggesting that i, or anyone else, was actively looking for a data pack to spoil positive aspects of pes 20, and even though it didnt, i or anyone else simply invented those changes for ourselves. Presumably, because I was looking for pes to become worse so I could stop having fun with a game I paid for.

One thing that needs to be considered, and its uncomfortable for us all, is that some of us are more sensitive to changes than others. I dont consider myself particular sensitive to them, I just tend to notice certain things while completely missing the positives or negatives pointed out by others, even if i try looking for them. In addition, our overall attitude to a game will have a huge impact on how objectively we assess the impact of a patch. If we are tired of pes, if we just think its stale as hell, subtle changes wont register as we'll be bored of it within seconds. That's happened to me pretty much since February.

Simply dismissing something as placebo, especially if its subjective, rather than objectively measurable things like the number of fouls, catchup bug, ability to wrong foot the AI using right stick, probably reveals more about ourselves than the person seeing whatever they're seeing.
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I do agree that we throw around the word placebo too easily and for Pes 2020 lifecycle patches it is objectively out of place. Game in the first patches with all his flaws had a completely different feel compared with what we got in the end.

However, I also think it's particularly hard to convince somebody who hated last months Pes that it feels better pad in hand just by words. All the improvements of 2021 will most certainly be akin to a corpulent in between patch- so balance in responsiveness and that kind of things that it's really hard to catch in video.
 
B-Man said:
I'm upset I am going to have to start my ML all over again lol :((

My current ML squad:

Strikers: Haaland, Ibra
Wingers: Pulisic, Sancho, Brandt, Pedrinho
AMF: Isco, Odegaard
CM: De Jong, Foden, Winks
DMF: Witzel, Camavinga
RB: Alexander-Arnold, Aurier
CB: M. Sarr, Sanchez, Kamara, Foyth
LB: Angelino, Davies
GK: Lloris, Gazzaniga
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That reminds me,La Liga starts tmw,and I get to see Martin Ødegaard Play amazing football again
 
B-Man said:
I'm upset I am going to have to start my ML all over again lol :((

My current ML squad:

Strikers: Haaland, Ibra
Wingers: Pulisic, Sancho, Brandt, Pedrinho
AMF: Isco, Odegaard
CM: De Jong, Foden, Winks
DMF: Witzel, Camavinga
RB: Alexander-Arnold, Aurier
CB: M. Sarr, Sanchez, Kamara, Foyth
LB: Angelino, Davies
GK: Lloris, Gazzaniga
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So unrealistic. I know you're trying to turn Stoke City into Man City and all...but still. :PP
 
Somebody was streaming this earlier on PS4.. I've got bad news if you're not a fan of 2020's AI in competitive games.. it's exactly the same!

Deep Defensive Line all over the place - check
AI defendrs racing back to the edge of the box asap - check
Far too easy to pass to the strikers feet, turn and shoot - check
Virtually no fouls committed by AI - check
AI losing and not upping the attack/ defence level - check

Could go on (& on!) but it's pointless, it's the same game with all the same underlying problems that make it boring to play after a week. Save your 25 $€£.
 
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