eFootball PES 2021 Discussion Thread (CONSOLES)

[Madmac79]

Look, it's really simple. If you enjoy a game, you tend to dismiss the bad things. If you hate the game and you find it dull, boring and bland, you probably dismiss really easily the supposed good there is.

I recognize, for example, animations and player models are very good in 2020. But what sticks with me after a few hours of game is how boring scoring is, how terribly one dimensional and unrealistic is the cpu, how unfun and precanned physical duels feels and so on and so forth.

For somebody else it may worth it anyway, I'm not disputing that nor I think you shouldn't feel entitled to play this game I dislike with joy and fun, after all everyone tends to create his own personal football experience with the means they are given/choose, but at the same time I just don't feel obliged to point out good angles when everything I search for is such a shit show.

 

[el niche]

Yes,i have.


By the way,i'm not responding directly personally to you @el niche lol.
It's a general comment.I just replied to you for the preorder comment and then some more things came to my mind..

Lol cool beans! Looking forward to impressions....

 

[Anth James]

I agree,but still there are some workarounds for at least some of the issues.
For example,like you're experimenting with sliders for Fifa to find a better gaming experience,in the same way you can go and edit the teams to not play long ball and deep defensive line before you start a ML or something.Yes it's annoying and time consuming,but you could say the same about trying to find the correct slider set all the time..

It’s the fact that the tactics override everything else. The game has become very robotic and one dimensional because of this in my opinion. Players act according to the tactics before acting to a situation and it just doesn’t feel natural. I agree there are good elements to pes 2020, but as Matt said the negatives are too powerful.

When people talk about arcade vs sim, there are many interpretations about what this means. There are different factors for me, and the AI decision making is probably the biggest in making the distinction between arcade and sim. I don’t find the AI in pes 2020 to be ‘sim’ at all. I find the AI on much older pes games to be far more sim.

 

[Matt10]

I agree,but still there are some workarounds for at least some of the issues.
For example,like you're experimenting with sliders for Fifa to find a better gaming experience,in the same way you can go and edit the teams to not play long ball and deep defensive line before you start a ML or something.Yes it's annoying and time consuming,but you could say the same about trying to find the correct slider set all the time..

I just think that there are positives and improvements from the previous versions that don't get mentioned enough,if any..
As much ridiculous it is to not be critical with the game and only praising it,the same ridiculous it is to only bashing it and never say anything good about it's positives..Especially when they are positives that you supposedly wanted to see for all this time..

I understand that different aspects of the game can mean more for some and less for others,but the game has seen improvemets in areas that are supposed to be important for a more sim natural feel that everyone is supposed to care about...For me things like realistic natural flow,more error,realistic weighty feel of the players and the ball and physics and animations in general,are too important to be able to enjoy playing it.Even if it had the perfect AI and tactics but the things that i mentioned before were total shit and unrealistic then i wouldn't play it.You're controlling the players and the ball all the time when you play,that's the actual gameplay in other words..If this feels like shit then no amount of good AI or tactics can save it for me personally.That's why these things are so important for me and that's why even if there are AI issues i can still enjoy it because the things that i like balances it out.
For someone else all these may not be equally important,fair enough.But they seem important when everyone was asking about them some years ago.

I mean, yeah, I've done all that, mate. I haven't uploaded in a while, but my workload on PES in general can be seen here:

PES Playlist

In regards to PES 2020 specifically. PES 2020 was a lot different than 19, so it had to be relearned. However, the base concept of tactics creating its gameplay hasn't changed since PES 2016 unfortunately. The potential that 20 had over all of them was massive, so myself and @isureaper31 obsessed a bit over trying to make the game playable through the tools we were given - which is pretty much only tactical related. DP5 and DP6 came along and completely ruined things. Before uninstalling for good, I tried the latest and it's still the same. The game has no feel. If I don't play manual passing, I can complete 20 passes in a row, whether it's forward backwards or sideways. There's no midfield resistance - and the "tools" we used previously such a compressing the lines (5-second fix) and forced gegenpress, wouldn't work anymore because one of the DPs changed how the CPU's midfielder opted to drive the pass straight to the forward as their main go to option.

There were a lot of positives for PES 20. From defensive midfielder positioning, something I had wanted for so long. Good ball physics. Attention down sidelines and an advanced defensive line would meet the opposition head on versus backpedaling all the way to their set position. Shot variety, such as missed shots up close, finesse shots and some of the keeper saves looked natural.

Despite knowing the negatives and the positives, I'm still naive and willing to try 21. I know what I'm looking for and I know what I don't like. This series has gradually built itself into what it is now. I've written about this on pesuniverse about the priorities of PES being focused on tactics first, player ratings/stats second. We'll see what happens.

 

[fregen]

Top 10 reasons online play in 2020 (and therefore 2021) is terrible.

1. People can stick it on PA3 to almost negate the increased passing error despite PA1 being improved. Pass assistance matchmaking doesn't exist in all modes, neither does it stop PA1vPA3, it just means you could get PA0vPA0.
2. The lack of fouls and clunky dribbling (plus any input delay) makes online play a joke. People can just rugby tackle you off the ball. The 20 demo wasn't like this.
3. Online co-op cannot be limited to real football teams. You end up having to play against ridiculous 95+ rated MyClub teams every game.
4. Online co-op cannot be limited to actual human opponents. You end up being matched against some Billy No Mates from Argentina with his 2 CPU partners. You can't do anything with the 3 seconds of input lag while their CPU players do all the work (unaffected by lag of course).
5. I'm not interested in those online casino, lootbox filled, pay/grind-to-win online modes.
6. The balance of those modes is fucked anyway. Within one week in 20 without even playing a match I had a full 90+ team, this is even more exacerbated by pre-order bonuses. With such high rated players everywhere, the amount of pass/shot error is vastly diminished and the game pace is increased. Even beginners to the mode have a vastly superior team to any real team you can use to play against them in Online Co-op.
7. People online play fucking ridiculous anti-football formations/tactics like this. It's either the most boring time wasting "possession" in their back line and/or launching full power chipped through balls up to 99 speed forwards all match. I don't care if you can beat these players by playing a certain way, it's a trash football match even when you win.
8. Shooting is awful. I don't mean ineffective, just boring and predictable. Keepers being so scripted/animation based contributes to this feeling. This has been discussed here a lot. Goals are just meh.
9. Scripted ball physics. People praise this aspect of the game a lot but to me the physics are almost nonexistent. Each animation has a set ball trajectory it applies to a pass/shot and once you've played a few hours you just see the same ones over and over. They've tuned the trajectories to look fairly realistic, but it's not physics - this isn't what we should expect from a football game on this generation. This ties in to the last point about shooting - actual ball physics instead of scripted would result in better shooting.
10. Player awareness - Shit like players letting the ball roll past their feet when they can easily intercept it because no animation happens. Dodgy defensive positioning leaving players in 20 yards of space to receive the ball etc. Players just seem like they're not aware of the ball or opponents most of the time, just rigidly following a position.

Plus the offline CPU is too scripted/boring to play against with ridiculous default tactics set for teams and broken logic for cup games. Even after giving every team about the best tactics people seem to recommend (klashman tactics) it's hardly much better and the main mode (ML) is plagued with the TS mechanic. I can hardly make it to half time in any offline match before just wondering why I'm wasting my time on it.

Older games being worse or more arcadey in your opinion is not a worthwhile response to this, I'm not comparing to any other game here.

I wouldn't download or want to play the 21 season update even if it was free, let alone paying over 20 quid for it.

As a fellow online player I agree with exactly everything in this post.

 

[Dennis_87]

It’s the fact that the tactics override everything else. The game has become very robotic and one dimensional because of this in my opinion. Players act according to the tactics before acting to a situation and it just doesn’t feel natural. I agree there are good elements to pes 2020, but as Matt said the negatives are too powerful.

When people talk about arcade vs sim, there are many interpretations about what this means. There are different factors for me, and the AI decision making is probably the biggest in making the distinction between arcade and sim. I don’t find the AI in pes 2020 to be ‘sim’ at all. I find the AI on much older pes games to be far more sim.

Fair enough.Maybe my ''mistake'' is that i'm trying to be in the same boat and understanding the views of people(and expect them to understand mine..) with whom we're not playing the same things and we're not having the same experiences because of that.
Like i said i also play offline exhibition matches,but i mainly play online.
And when the game is played by two human opponents who try to play some football and not only exploiting shit all the time,then it can play a beautiful game without seeing so much bullshit as you would see in your offline ML for example.

Tactics are also important online,but because it's controlled by humans it doesn't feel as overriding to everything else because it's still up to you to move the players where you want,closing different lanes and gaps etc and just be more in control of things in general and knowing also that the opponent is also a human who can read your next move if he's experienced enough so you have to surprise him with something he don't expect etc.It's a totally different approach and feeling than playing against a soulless machine.You can feel their calmness or nervousness when playing and it's just something else lol.And things like player roles or characteristics stand out more because you have to keep your eyes open for every movement like tracking your opponents Griezmann for example who is a Hole Player and tries to get behind the defence many times with clever runs etc..

I'm kinda surprised actually that no more people here seem to play any PvP at all.I'm not talking about myClub necessarily.People could create rooms and play friendlies with each other or even create some mini tournaments for Evoweb or something.Maybe they would like the game more if they gave it a chance and played against other human opponents who try to play some decent football.

About the positives that i mentioned before though,i don't think that anyone can deny that the game improved and become more realistic in those specific departments that i mentioned like more realistic pace/rhythm/flow,more physicality,more realistic error in everything and correct body positioning playing an essential role and more humanlike touches without the ball feeling so perfect and glued to the feet like it was before.These are just facts and they are things that many people even here i remember them asking for all these things to improve and be more humanlike/realistic.

When i talk about something being more or less arcady,these are the first things that come to mind and if you asked 10 different random people i believe that's what they would said.Something more quicker in everything,more assisted in everything,with no error and with perfect touches is more arcady than something slower,more free and with more error.So yeah,for me the previous games are more arcady with that in mind.Which is not necessarily bad if someone prefers it like that,but for me the more realistic approach in these things is better and more enjoyable.

 

[Anth James]

Fair enough.Maybe my ''mistake'' is that i'm trying to be in the same boat and understanding the views of people(and expect them to understand mine..) with whom we're not playing the same things and we're not having the same experiences because of that.
Like i said i also play offline exhibition matches,but i mainly play online.
And when the game is played by two human opponents who try to play some football and not only exploiting shit all the time,then it can play a beautiful game without seeing so much bullshit as you would see in your offline ML for example.

Tactics are also important online,but because it's controlled by humans it doesn't feel as overriding to everything else because it's still up to you to move the players where you want,closing different lanes and gaps etc and just be more in control of things in general and knowing also that the opponent is also a human who can read your next move if his experienced enough so you have to surprise him with something he don't expect etc.It's a totally different approach and feeling than playing against a soulless machine.You can feel their calmness or nervousness when playing and it's just something else lol.And things like player roles or characteristics stand out more because you have to keep your eyes open for every movement like tracking your opponents Griezmann for example who is a Hole Player and tries to get behind the defence many times with clever runs etc..

I'm kinda surprised actually that no more people here seem to play any PvP at all.I'm not talking about myClub necessarily.People could create rooms and play friendlies with each other or even create some mini tournaments for Evoweb or something.Maybe they would like the game more if they gave it a chance and played against other human opponents who try to play some decent football.

About the positives that i mentioned before though,i don't think that anyone can deny that the game improved and become more realistic in those specific departments that i mentioned like more realistic pace/rhythm/flow,more physicality,more realistic error in everything and correct body positioning playing an essential role and more humanlike touches without the ball feeling so perfect and glued to the feet like it was before.These are just facts and they are things that many people even here i remember them asking for all these things to improve and be more humanlike/realistic.

When i talk about something being more or less arcady,these are the first things that come to mind and if you asked 10 different random people i believe that's what they would said.Something more quicker in everything,more assisted in everything,with no error and with perfect touches is more arcady than something slower,more free and with more error.So yeah,for me the previous games are more arcady with that in mind.Which is not necessarily bad if someone prefers it like that,but for me the more realistic approach in these things is better and more enjoyable.

I agree in terms of player v player (offline anyway). I’ve had some great all manual matches against friends and like you said it’s not the same soulless experience. Unfortunately the soulless experience is there when playing the AI.

 

[rojofa]

Fair enough.Maybe my ''mistake'' is that i'm trying to be in the same boat and understanding the views of people(and expect them to understand mine..) with whom we're not playing the same things and we're not having the same experiences because of that.
Like i said i also play offline exhibition matches,but i mainly play online.
And when the game is played by two human opponents who try to play some football and not only exploiting shit all the time,then it can play a beautiful game without seeing so much bullshit as you would see in your offline ML for example.

Tactics are also important online,but because it's controlled by humans it doesn't feel as overriding to everything else because it's still up to you to move the players where you want,closing different lanes and gaps etc and just be more in control of things in general and knowing also that the opponent is also a human who can read your next move if he's experienced enough so you have to surprise him with something he don't expect etc.It's a totally different approach and feeling than playing against a soulless machine.You can feel their calmness or nervousness when playing and it's just something else lol.And things like player roles or characteristics stand out more because you have to keep your eyes open for every movement like tracking your opponents Griezmann for example who is a Hole Player and tries to get behind the defence many times with clever runs etc..

I'm kinda surprised actually that no more people here seem to play any PvP at all.I'm not talking about myClub necessarily.People could create rooms and play friendlies with each other or even create some mini tournaments for Evoweb or something.Maybe they would like the game more if they gave it a chance and played against other human opponents who try to play some decent football.

About the positives that i mentioned before though,i don't think that anyone can deny that the game improved and become more realistic in those specific departments that i mentioned like more realistic pace/rhythm/flow,more physicality,more realistic error in everything and correct body positioning playing an essential role and more humanlike touches without the ball feeling so perfect and glued to the feet like it was before.These are just facts and they are things that many people even here i remember them asking for all these things to improve and be more humanlike/realistic.

When i talk about something being more or less arcady,these are the first things that come to mind and if you asked 10 different random people i believe that's what they would said.Something more quicker in everything,more assisted in everything,with no error and with perfect touches is more arcady than something slower,more free and with more error.So yeah,for me the previous games are more arcady with that in mind.Which is not necessarily bad if someone prefers it like that,but for me the more realistic approach in these things is better and more enjoyable.

So it's gone from talking generally about online play, to now talking about private friendly matches arranged with people you know.

I somewhat agree on that point - private games with people you know try to play decent football are about the only tolerable way to play the game. Plenty of the gameplay problems still persist, too many for me, but it probably is the best way to play the game.

What I don't really understand though is you said - "the bonuses that come for online with the preorder is a good deal for the 28 euros that i payed" - If you're advocating for playing private friendly matches and want realistic football, why would this be necessary or a good deal?... Especially if passing error, first touch error, shooting error and so on are of importance to you as you seem to suggest, why on earth would you choose to play the mode where there's the least of this in the entire game as the players are rated the highest? Adding more money for extra bonuses for even higher rated players would make this even more extreme...

If it's MyClub you would play, then how is buying the same game with the same gameplay again (Konami admit this) to wipe your team worth it?... Even with your "bonuses" you will end up with a worse lineup than you have right now in PES 2020. As you're using fantasy teams, why do the updated rosters and kits of the "Season Update" even matter?

Also if you're saying this stuff about the bonuses for MyClub, I can't see why this would be the mode you would want to arrange matches to play with other people who play "proper football" as a simulation in PA0 or PA1. Surely real teams without such ridiculously highly rated players would be better for this purpose due to the slower pace, increased error, and the fact they're actually a real life football team. Playing it against people you know isn't ideal either because one player could have paid/grinded more and have a significantly stronger team, surely you'd want a private match to be fair. If playing with custom squads online in a friendly is what you want, you can load a Master League team in a friendly lobby; there you can each choose whatever players you want without paying real money for them.

If you play MyClub to go up against random people online, most of my complaints on the previous page and just the general toxicity/cheesiness of online gaming apply and make it not appealing whatsoever. Plus the fact that if an opponent spends/grinds a lot more/less than you, you end up in an unbalanced, unfair match. Maybe you end up winning because you paid for the "bonuses" and they didn't. Is this where we're at, where paying to win more matches is regarded as good value for money - that's all the "bonuses" contribute to by giving you higher rated players and ingame currency.

Okay, you enjoy PES 2020 and see positives in it which is fine, of course I'm not going to say you're wrong to enjoy it. What I really don't get is how 28€ is a good deal considering all of the above.

The only situations I can think of where it may be worth it are if you don't own 2020, you're an offline player on Xbox, or want the updated teams for Online Divisions. For MyClub or PC/PS offline players it seems to make no sense to me as you can either update the teams with mods/OFs or you don't use real teams anyway, so why pay for an update.

 

[Matt10]

I agree in terms of player v player (offline anyway). I’ve had some great all manual matches against friends and like you said it’s not the same soulless experience. Unfortunately the soulless experience is there when playing the AI.

Yeah agree here too. Have played some quality matches with friends. That randomness that used to happen with the CPU has a higher chance of being experienced of course.

 

[Redhat]

I agree in terms of player v player (offline anyway). I’ve had some great all manual matches against friends and like you said it’s not the same soulless experience. Unfortunately the soulless experience is there when playing the AI.

Tough being a Yank. I'd be lucky to find anyone in my entire state that would be willing to do that, let alone anyone I personally know. At least not nowadays anyway.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

Imo pes20 regressed after the first update.Everything was better..From dribbling,touch,physicality,general consistency and balance.The scripting wasn’t as heavy and every thing just felt that little bit looser and more free.While the shooting felt hollow and limited both in its animation set and scope.With heading being non descript,inconsistent and in the main lacking any real power or logic.The weight,contact and feel with feet was descent.The manual passing and shooting imo is one of the real highlights and imo brilliantly executed.

Aside from the one dimensional tendency of the cpu AI to just want to park the bus,not shoot or dribble,pass back,build and just use about three different patterns of play.Games ebb and flowed with momentum and there was many more random moments that were user created not scripted.

I don’t think you need to be a genius to see what pes20 needs or needed..Patching was never going to do anything but makes things more muddied..Anything after version 1..Was just tweaks and adjustments to the same base..Everything else has to be hard coded.That would require a re-issue on disk or a huge update that would re-write any pre existing code.

This game needed/needs a lot more work and the stats to take more precedent.A drop in the heavy reliance on scripting..Let the end user create the script,because the code produced via version 1,produced these moments anyway.

 

[Chris Davies]

Imo pes20 regressed after the first update.Everything was better..From dribbling,touch,physicality,general consistency and balance.The scripting wasn’t as heavy and every thing just felt that little bit looser and more free.While the shooting felt hollow and limited both in its animation set and scope.With heading being non descript,inconsistent and in the main lacking any real power or logic.The weight,contact and feel with feet was descent.

I vividly remember playing the game on release, playing as Paris FC, and thinking "this is a decent PES" and having fun. But I also remember thinking "everything is still on rails, it's still 1,000x miles from feeling organic and free, and it feels like the game will never evolve into a 21st century product".

It's like playing the best version of Subbuteo you ever played - it's still just Subbuteo, in the era of next-gen technology.

That was my stronger feeling on release - the feeling of, I could play this game for a while, but I'm going to be disappointed (and wishing) every time.

Now bearing in mind that's the feeling I get every year - and that many of us have agreed even 2019 is the better game (even though it's not great)... The idea that we're all wallowing in being negative for the sake of it is, in my very frank opinion, an absolute joke. It is some kind of astonishing, wilful ignorance to me. There's a difference between having a positive attitude, and playing a game you acknowledge isn't as good as the older games "just because".

Unless, of course, you don't think that, and you love the game, and - as someone said far more eloquently recently - if you love 2020, I'm genuinely jealous, because here I am twiddling my thumbs and waiting to love a football game again. I've found I can't even go back and play "the classics" because I just find myself getting frustrated at not having tools that other modern games give you in terms of freedom of movement, AI variety etc...

...but anyway, to your original point - I'd say yes, the patches almost certainly made it progressively worse - but I also don't like the idea that it was an incredible game to begin with. Pretty much every PES and FIFA I can think of, was better in a demo or beta format (before animations etc. are "smoothed" and sped up in order to make it look better, and to satsify the kids). 2020 is no different. So I guess I'd say - so what... It's still Subbuteo...

(Also - this is why I'm more excited for PES 2022 than I have been about any previous game.)

 

[yasujiro]

I want to share my thoughts on the “scripting” of PES 2020 in the Master League mode.

I play Master League with the default team and full manual (0 Passing Assistance, Advance Through balls and Manual shooting).

Things that we call “scripting” make sense in Master League mode:

1) Playing FUMA is a different game from playing with PA Assistance. When we talk about the game in the forum is an important to know if we play FUMA or with some PA.

2) Stats are important on FUMA, we can make a pass or a shoot manually but the success of our actions depends on stats.

3) There are a important things that have influence on the gameplay, on the success of the actions we perform with the controller, not only the stats or the ability of the gamer:

Individual: Chemistry. This is the heat map around players. When there’s no heat around a player it finds difficult to pass correctly to the other players and also to receive passes of their mates. We call this scripting or bad AI. The way to improve Chemistry is to play a lot of matches with the same players. I find this is a realistic situation and reflects the real life.

Team: Team Spirit. This is similar to Chemistry but affects to the performance of all the team. We can improve team spirit lining up players with good chemistry and using players with playing style “Playmaker”. We can improve the team spirit when the Captain is a player with the “Playmaker” style.

Team: Tactics. Play with the same tactic a lot of matches. The players will adapt to the tactic and improve Team Spirit. If we change to a new tactic the team spirit drops since they have to adapt to the new tactic.

I like to have care of all these variables during my season and it makes sense since the bad AI or the scripting is the result of low chemistry or team spirit. Once you make the correct decisions the chemistry and team spirit improves and the team plays better, better AI, no clunkiness. I like to see how my team improves as the season progresses.

I think we call scripting or bad AI to a lot of actions that are the result of bad chemistry or lower team spirit.

 

[rojofa]

I vividly remember playing the game on release, playing as Paris FC, and thinking "this is a decent PES" and having fun. But I also remember thinking "everything is still on rails, it's still 1,000x miles from feeling organic and free, and it feels like the game will never evolve into a 21st century product".

It's like playing the best version of Subbuteo you ever played - it's still just Subbuteo, in the era of next-gen technology.

That was my stronger feeling on release - the feeling of, I could play this game for a while, but I'm going to be disappointed (and wishing) every time.

Now bearing in mind that's the feeling I get every year - and that many of us have agreed even 2019 is the better game (even though it's not great)... The idea that we're all wallowing in being negative for the sake of it is, in my very frank opinion, an absolute joke. It is some kind of astonishing, wilful ignorance to me. There's a difference between having a positive attitude, and playing a game you acknowledge isn't as good as the older games "just because".

Unless, of course, you don't think that, and you love the game, and - as someone said far more eloquently recently - if you love 2020, I'm genuinely jealous, because here I am twiddling my thumbs and waiting to love a football game again. I've found I can't even go back and play "the classics" because I just find myself getting frustrated at not having tools that other modern games give you in terms of freedom of movement, AI variety etc...

...but anyway, to your original point - I'd say yes, the patches almost certainly made it progressively worse - but I also don't like the idea that it was an incredible game to begin with. Pretty much every PES and FIFA I can think of, was better in a demo or beta format (before animations etc. are "smoothed" and sped up in order to make it look better, and to satsify the kids). 2020 is no different. So I guess I'd say - so what... It's still Subbuteo...

(Also - this is why I'm more excited for PES 2022 than I have been about any previous game.)

The comparison to Subbuteo is pretty accurate for me - that is the big reason that I totally disagree with anyone who thinks you can solve the problems we have in bad sports games with sliders, mods, or sending feedback on individual issues to the developers.

Sliders/mods is basically the equivalent of doing some DIY to change the weight of the ball, friction of the cloth or size of the players in Subbuteo. Chasing down developers in forums/beta to report feedback on specific issues is like sending an email to the Subbuteo manufacturers suggesting rule changes or different parts shipped in the box.

Both are only worthwhile/productive whatsoever if you still only want to play something resembling Subbuteo. That's not what I want, I want something new/different, hopefully PES 2022 will be that.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

I vividly remember playing the game on release, playing as Paris FC, and thinking "this is a decent PES" and having fun. But I also remember thinking "everything is still on rails, it's still 1,000x miles from feeling organic and free, and it feels like the game will never evolve into a 21st century product".

It's like playing the best version of Subbuteo you ever played - it's still just Subbuteo, in the era of next-gen consoles.

That was my stronger feeling on release - the feeling of, I could play this game for a while, but I'm going to be disappointed (and wishing) every time.

Now bearing in mind that's the feeling I get every year - and that many of us have agreed even 2019 is the better game (even though it's not great)... The idea that we're all wallowing in being negative for the sake of it is, in my very frank opinion, an absolute joke. It is some kind of astonishing, wilful ignorance to me. There's a difference between having a positive attitude, and playing a game you acknowledge isn't as good as the older games "just because".

Unless, of course, you don't think that, and you love the game, and - as someone said far more eloquently recently - if you love 2020, I'm genuinely jealous, because here I am twiddling my thumbs and waiting to love a football game again. I've found I can't even go back and play "the classics" because I just find myself getting frustrated at not having tools that other modern games give you in terms of freedom of movement, AI variety etc...

...but anyway, to your original point - I'd say yes, the patches almost certainly made it progressively worse - but I also don't like the idea that it was an incredible game to begin with. Pretty much every PES and FIFA I can think of, was better in a demo or beta format (before animations etc. are "smoothed" and sped up in order to make it look prettier, and to satsify the kids). 2020 is no different. So I guess I'd say - so what... It's still Subbuteo...

(Also - this is why I'm more excited for PES 2022 than I have been about any previous game.)

I’ve found myself in this really strange position of really liking FIFA 20 at the moment offline fully manual..I just didn’t think I would enjoy a FIFA like this and it takes me back in so many ways to the earlier ISS games by major A.I even really like the player modelling,faces and overall look of the game compared to other iterations..

Back to pes20..I’ve already heavily outlined what I think is good about this iteration back on release under the username DigitalByDesign...with posts videos and my viewpoint outlined in my earlier post today doesn’t differ..The rigidity of pes has been a big bugbear of mine for almost two generations,as has the lack of continuity or vision to build on one game,rather then just remixing or weakening core gameplay values.Its been a halfway house of near brilliance and pure mediocrity since 2006.

Opinions good,bad and indifferent are something I welcome..And I don’t think anybody’s critiques or opinions are wrong or unjustified..

 

[majuh]

Both PES and FIFA never regress after the demo. It's just that the flaws become more apparent over time.

 

[hitmanuk]

Both PES and FIFA never regress after the demo. It's just that the flaws become more apparent over time.

No this year PES has regressed since earlier patches (which made the game better) after release.

 

[Matt10]

The comparison to Subbuteo is pretty accurate for me - that is the big reason that I totally disagree with anyone who thinks you can solve the problems we have in bad sports games with sliders, mods, or sending feedback on individual issues to the developers.

Sliders/mods is basically the equivalent of doing some DIY to change the weight of the ball, friction of the cloth or size of the players in Subbuteo. Chasing down developers in forums/beta to report feedback on specific issues is like sending an email to the Subbuteo manufacturers suggesting rule changes or different parts shipped in the box.

Both are only worthwhile/productive whatsoever if you still only want to play something resembling Subbuteo. That's not what I want, I want something new/different, hopefully PES 2022 will be that.

I know you and I disagreed in the FIFA 21 thread, but man, you seem to be completely against anyone who tries to make the best out of what they're given. Now, it's also frowned upon by you that they reach out to developers on said issues?

Sorry I know you don't want me to quote you, but what other solutions do you propose for someone who's bought the game? To send it back and boycott?

Apologies if I'm confused.

 

[AntonyC_PESCustomFaces]

Top 10 reasons online play in 2020 (and therefore 2021) is terrible.

1. People can stick it on PA3 to almost negate the increased passing error despite PA1 being improved. Pass assistance matchmaking doesn't exist in all modes, neither does it stop PA1vPA3, it just means you could get PA0vPA0.
2. The lack of fouls and clunky dribbling (plus any input delay) makes online play a joke. People can just rugby tackle you off the ball. The 20 demo wasn't like this.
3. Online co-op cannot be limited to real football teams. You end up having to play against ridiculous 95+ rated MyClub teams every game.
4. Online co-op cannot be limited to actual human opponents. You end up being matched against some Billy No Mates from Argentina with his 2 CPU partners. You can't do anything with the 3 seconds of input lag while their CPU players do all the work (unaffected by lag of course).
5. I'm not interested in those online casino, lootbox filled, pay/grind-to-win online modes.
6. The balance of those modes is fucked anyway. Within one week in 20 without even playing a match I had a full 90+ team, this is even more exacerbated by pre-order bonuses. With such high rated players everywhere, the amount of pass/shot error is vastly diminished and the game pace is increased. Even beginners to the mode have a vastly superior team to any real team you can use to play against them in Online Co-op.
7. People online play fucking ridiculous anti-football formations/tactics like this. It's either the most boring time wasting "possession" in their back line and/or launching full power chipped through balls up to 99 speed forwards all match. I don't care if you can beat these players by playing a certain way, it's a trash football match even when you win.
8. Shooting is awful. I don't mean ineffective, just boring and predictable. Keepers being so scripted/animation based contributes to this feeling. This has been discussed here a lot. Goals are just meh.
9. Scripted ball physics. People praise this aspect of the game a lot but to me the physics are almost nonexistent. Each animation has a set ball trajectory it applies to a pass/shot and once you've played a few hours you just see the same ones over and over. They've tuned the trajectories to look fairly realistic, but it's not physics - this isn't what we should expect from a football game on this generation. This ties in to the last point about shooting - actual ball physics instead of scripted would result in better shooting.
10. Player awareness - Shit like players letting the ball roll past their feet when they can easily intercept it because no animation happens. Dodgy defensive positioning leaving players in 20 yards of space to receive the ball etc. Players just seem like they're not aware of the ball or opponents most of the time, just rigidly following a position.

Plus the offline CPU is too scripted/boring to play against with ridiculous default tactics set for teams and broken logic for cup games. Even after giving every team about the best tactics people seem to recommend (klashman tactics) it's hardly much better and the main mode (ML) is plagued with the TS mechanic. I can hardly make it to half time in any offline match before just wondering why I'm wasting my time on it.

Older games being worse or more arcadey in your opinion is not a worthwhile response to this, I'm not comparing to any other game here.

I wouldn't download or want to play the 21 season update even if it was free, let alone paying over 20 quid for it.

I’ve fixed PES 2020 (offline) gameplay.

fast players are now fast and will outpace a slower player to the ball.
There’s now more space to run into, there’s also more space for long shots.

I’ve played 12 games with this find in the last 24 hours, very rarely do I see a mistake being made by my own players. And 50/50 challenges work out in your favour as much as the AI’s favour.
OVERALL, the game feels much more balanced and fun. And is similar to PES 2017. I play on SUPERSTAR level. Previously, I was struggling with Professional level.

 

[AntonyC_PESCustomFaces]

(AND for the record... I hated PES 2020 and how awful it had become. A complete regression in the past 2-3 years.)
But I reinstalled the game after I had an idea, which took me 3 minutes to implement and a further 10 minutes to apply to every other team in a league.

 

[Dr Force]

(AND for the record... I hated PES 2020 and how awful it had become. A complete regression in the past 2-3 years.)
But I reinstalled the game after I had an idea, which took me 3 minutes to implement and a further 10 minutes to apply to every other team in a league.

I'm waiting for your YouTube video of you also walking on water........sorry to be a pessimistic old bugger, but how you can suddenly fix locked code in 5-10 minutes must mean you are some kind of messia!

 

[AntonyC_PESCustomFaces]

I'm waiting for your YouTube video of you also walking on water........sorry to be a pessimistic old bugger, but how you can suddenly fix locked code in 5-10 minutes must mean you are some kind of messia!

100% legit. I’m not the best PES 2020 player by a long shot.And on Superstar I still lose and have lost the last 4 matches I’d played.
But there’s a difference in losing via the AI cheating and losing in a tough yet enjoyable battle.

For the record, the “Fix” looks moronic on screen when making the changes, but, the game is so much more free flowing, and doesn’t feel anywhere near as Scrpted as it did!

I’m uploading a match now. I’ll post a link shortly.

 

[slamsoze]

100% legit. I’m not the best PES 2020 player by a long shot.And on Superstar I still lose and have lost the last 4 matches I’d played.
But there’s a difference in losing via the AI cheating and losing in a tough yet enjoyable battle.

For the record, the “Fix” looks moronic on screen when making the changes, but, the game is so much more free flowing, and doesn’t feel anywhere near as Scrpted as it did!

I’m uploading a match now. I’ll post a link shortly.

Will you post the "fix"? . Found your video from 17 hours ago, but it says, removed by user.

 

[Chris Davies]

I know you and I disagreed in the FIFA 21 thread, but man, you seem to be completely against anyone who tries to make the best out of what they're given. Now, it's also frowned upon by you that they reach out to developers on said issues?

Sorry I know you don't want me to quote you, but what other solutions do you propose for someone who's bought the game? To send it back and boycott?

I know @rojofa has said in the past that a boycott will be the only way for devs to really change the product. I certainly see his point, but I also think (as I said over in the FIFA thread) that a boycott wouldn't change the fact that the game is developed to appeal to three very different consumer types, who all want different things, over the course of 9 months of development time, alongside fixing the biggest issues and bugs... So as well as a boycott being unrealistic given how much people love football, personally I don't even think it would change their output.

But to respond to the bigger point here - I think what he's saying is that, making the kinds of changes we (the end users) have the power to make does not bring the game into the 21st century. Even the devs adding or fixing a thing or two, doesn't change the core product - and the core product is bad.

To put it simply, making the game a bit slower, or moving the defensive line a bit further forward, does not add 1,000's of lines of code to the AI's intelligence, or add 1,000's more outcomes to tackles thanks to better ball physics, or, in a nutshell, make the game into a 21st century game that's been developed as such (other games get 3-5 years of development - PES and FIFA get a creaking old engine with bolt-ons that don't feel organic).

That's what we're waiting for, and have been for a very long time. A game that's designed to take advantage of the latest technology and developments in tech. I know you are too, and you're making the best of a bad situation, but that doesn't get us any closer to a fully-developed, genre-defining game. As far as @rojofa is concerned - sorry to speak for you here, mate - the only thing that will get us there is if people stop buying the games, because they're sick of the lack of real change. Sadly, the majority just want the latest teams and kits.

He's mentioned before the Euphoria engine - removing the need for canned animations, and creating real, practically infinite variety in collisions. What does PES have? Bumper-car physics. Your players hit each other and bounce off each-other - or, even worse, your player locks into the same old stumble animation for (what feels like) 15 minutes while the AI steals the ball and runs through on goal.

The Euphoria technology has been out there since the PS3 / Xbox 360 days. We're moving into the PS5 / Xbox Series X era as of a couple of months' time... Frankly, it's absurd that we think PES 2020 is a full-price title. Konami put no investment into it - and continue to get a (comparitively) huge amount of sales out of it.

PES 2020 and, even more so, 2021, are the equivalent of putting a Bluetooth radio in a car from the 1990s and charging $30,000 for it. But we buy it because we have a "soft spot" for those cars from the 1990s, and nobody else is making anything like them...

However - as I've said before. The fact that Konami have openly said "PES 2021 will be called 'Season Update' and 2022 is a new game on a new engine, that we're spending all our dev time on from now until then"... That's huge, and very exciting, and completely unexpected. It's a real opportunity, and honestly, I think Konami deserve a little credit for that one.

EDIT: If it turns out PES 2022's gameplay is designed for the myClub / FUT players... Then I think the only hope guys like us have of ever getting the game we want, is a first-party publisher (e.g. Sony) deciding to take on the establishment (EA). Like Sony used to do with This is Football - but in the face of the fully-licensed FIFA, it bombed sales-wise. Once bitten, twice shy...

 

[rojofa]

I know you and I disagreed in the FIFA 21 thread, but man, you seem to be completely against anyone who tries to make the best out of what they're given. Now, it's also frowned upon by you that they reach out to developers on said issues?

Sorry I know you don't want me to quote you, but what other solutions do you propose for someone who's bought the game? To send it back and boycott?

Apologies if I'm confused.

Like I said - those things might be worth it if you actually want to play something still resembling Subbuteo, or FIFA, or Madden or whatever else the game ships as.

When the base of the game itself and the fundamental mechanics of how it works, the technology behind it is the outdated/tired/limiting thing that people like me (and I guess Moody) dislike, then no amount of small incremental adjustments by the developers, or changing of variables with sliders is going to go anywhere near resolving those problems.

If the fundamentals of the game are solid and it's just refining/expanding what's already excellent, then I'd be right there offering feedback to the developers and trying to improve the game with any of the tools available. When it's beyond that point and you want something completely different, then I would advise not purchasing the product. I won't be purchasing another football game until something significantly different is offered, which will hopefully be PES 2022.

I think you may be missing my point sometimes with the way you thought sliders "fixed" the technological differences Moody pointed out in the tackle physics and player logic between Madden and Backbreaker. I'm not saying Backbreaker is a better (American) football game, but the way it determined the outcomes of collisions is fundamentally different due to the Euphoria physics. That is the kind of change I want to see in football games.

If a football game releases with proper physics based fundamentals and animation technology like Backbreaker, I'll be right there offering as much feedback as possible to see it reach its potential.

 

[Matt10]

I know @rojofa has said in the past that a boycott will be the only way for devs to really change the product. I certainly see his point, but I also think (as I said over in the FIFA thread) that a boycott wouldn't change the fact that the game is developed to appeal to three very different consumer types, who all want different things, over the course of 9 months of development time, alongside fixing the biggest issues and bugs... So as well as a boycott being unrealistic given how much people love football, personally I don't even think it would change their output.

But to respond to the bigger point here - I think what he's saying is that, making the kinds of changes we (the end users) have the power to make (to PES or to FIFA) doesn't change the core game. To put it simply, making the game a bit slower, or moving the defensive line a bit further forward, does not add 1,000's of lines to the AI's intelligence, or add 1,000's more outcomes to tackles thanks to better ball physics, or, in a nutshell, make the game into a 21st century game that's been developed as such (other games get 3-5 years of development, we get a creaking old engine with bolt-ons that don't feel fluid and/or organic).

That's what we're waiting for, and have been for a very long time. A game that's designed to take advantage of the latest technology and developments in tech. I know you are too, and you're making the best of a bad situation, but that doesn't get us any closer to a fully-developed, genre-defining game. As far as @rojofa is concerned - sorry to speak for you here, mate - the only thing that will get us there is if people stop buying the games, because they're sick of the lack of real change.

He's mentioned before the Euphoria engine - removing the need for canned animations, and creating real, practically infinite variety in collisions. What does PES have? Bumper-car physics. Your players hit each other and bounce off each-other - or, even worse, your player locks into the same old stumble animation for (what feels like) 15 minutes while the AI steals the ball and runs through on goal.

The Euphoria technology has been out there since the PS3 / Xbox 360 days. We're moving into the PS5 / Xbox Series X era as of a couple of months' time... Frankly, it's absurd that we think PES 2020 is a full-price title. It's a scandal. Konami put no investment into it - and continue to get a (comparitively) huge amount of sales out of it.

PES 2020 and, even more so, 2021, are the equivalent of putting a Bluetooth radio in a car from the 1990s and charging $30,000 for it. But we buy it because we used to love those cars from the 1990s, and nobody else is making anything like them...

However - as I've said before. The fact that Konami have openly said "PES 2021 will be called 'Season Update' and 2022 is a new game on a new engine, that we're spending all our dev time on from now until then"... That's huge, and very exciting, and completely unexpected. It's a real opportunity, and honestly, I think Konami deserve a little credit for that one.

Thanks, Chris. You know I agree with everything you said. I also agree with what rojofa says for the most part. What I don't agree with is the attitude of "totally disagree with anyone who thinks you can solve the problems we have in bad sports games with sliders, mods, or sending feedback on individual issues to the developers."

Is this only an invalid direction because [all of the above] hasn't produce a "good" game?

Or could it be that we're facing times in which eSports has taken over and those who are professional in those video games now hold the developers accountable to their changes? Pair that up with online lootbox and gambling? More accountability. The side that has the least amount to hold the devs accountable, in terms of actual power, is the one-time consumer like the majority of us on this forum.

It is a bad situation, but the standards have been set. Boycotting the game won't happen - and never has. That is the most consistent fact in the history of sports video games, let alone footy video games. Unless someone very creatively misleads all those involved that by downloading the game you will get a virus in the same instant.

What we're seeing now though is that misleading the ratings of video games is actually hitting video game companies where it hurts - in their social media status. Madden is experiencing this with their 0.3 game rating. The irony is that the tag of #FixMaddenFranchise trending was the most genuine movement compared to the misleading user ratings. The dilemma now, do we accept this as a solution to get what we want as a community? That's the discussion brewing on simfballcritic (EA gamechanger) recent video. I don't necessarily approve, but I understand.

 

[Matt10]

Like I said - those things might be worth it if you actually want to play something still resembling Subbuteo, or FIFA, or Madden or whatever else the game ships as.

When the base of the game itself and the fundamental mechanics of how it works, the technology behind it is the outdated/tired/limiting thing that people like me (and I guess Moody) dislike, then no amount of small incremental adjustments by the developers, or changing of variables with sliders is going to go anywhere near resolving those problems.

If the fundamentals of the game are solid and it's just refining/expanding what's already excellent, then I'd be right there offering feedback to the developers and trying to improve the game with any of the tools available. When it's beyond that point and you want something completely different, then I would advise not purchasing the product. I won't be purchasing another football game until something significantly different is offered, which will hopefully be PES 2022.

I think you may be missing my point sometimes with the way you thought sliders "fixed" the technological differences Moody pointed out in the tackle physics and player logic between Madden and Backbreaker. I'm not saying Backbreaker is a better (American) football game, but the way it determined the outcomes of collisions is fundamentally different due to the Euphoria physics. That is the kind of change I want to see in football games.

If a football game releases with proper physics based fundamentals and animation technology like Backbreaker, I'll be right there offering as much feedback as possible to see it reach its potential.

It's not that I didn't understand, it's that you are talking about a game that hasn't been created yet, while I'm talking about the reality of the situation - and making the best of what is provided. The issue that I have with that attitude is that you set yourself up in a position to always win. You can play in make believe land of where we get the perfect representation of the sport - while those of us who are not creative enough are viewed as just eating the crap because we're not brave enough to boycott?

We may be constantly off the mark here, but as an engineer I look at flaws and try to fix them. That's my daily. I QA software all day long and what is good is left alone, and what is bad needs to be fixed. Our product is vast and massively layered - so I can't test everything. Without the feedback from our users, we'll never catch half of the issues. If our customers stop buying the product, we'll never know what specifically it was that was preventing a purchase. We'll then have to reverse engineer all the layers and take our own infrastructure down to do it.

If that's what Konami is doing, then great. More power to them, and I also can't wait to see the potential reached - or attempted to be reached.

 

[AntonyC_PESCustomFaces]

These tactics look absolutely ridiculous, I know!
The players don't play in these positions, let me tell you!

THESE TACTICS ARE TO BE APPLIED TO THE OPPOSITION TEAMS ONLY - Use your own tactics for your team.

What happen to the AI Team during a match:
The CBs are still relatively central until in possession, then they push out a bit wider. (NOTHING LIKE THE IMAGES BTW)
The Full Backs still defend as full backs, but they start off in a more advanced position, supporting the midfield and attack.
The CMFs are still dropping deep to receive and distribute passes and pushing up when in possession.
The CMFs when OUT of possession drop deep with the full backs to help defend.
Due to the "Front Line Pressure", the attackers push up or drop deep when out of possession.

You will notice a difference in lack of stupidity with regards to passes and mis-controlling the ball.
You will notice your own players who have high top speed pull away from players easier and quicker.
Your own players have more time to pass and receive passes including through balls (high and low).

There are still issues with the fouls. Personally, I feel sliding tackles are broken. Very rarely do you win the ball.
The standing tackles are still iffy too. Often get a yellow card for merely trying to defend. But, there is no way to fix these issues.

Personally, I believe the game is over-complicated and causes AI confusion for itself when trying to read and control 20 outfield players in a small area of the pitch resulting in weird scripted like actions. These tactics open the pitch right up.

I recommend playing Super Star, minimum of 10 mins.


Anyone who is massively frustrated with the gameplay of PES 2020, try this with One Team and play AGAINST them.
It works well in Master League, not sure about Exhibition Match - it might be too easy?

Anyone who enjoys PES 2020 the way it is, ignore this post.

 

[rojofa]

It's not that I didn't understand, it's that you are talking about a game that hasn't been created yet, while I'm talking about the reality of the situation - and making the best of what is provided. The issue that I have with that attitude is that you set yourself up in a position to always win. You can play in make believe land of where we get the perfect representation of the sport - while those of us who are not creative enough are viewed as just eating the crap because we're not brave enough to boycott?

We may be constantly off the mark here, but as an engineer I look at flaws and try to fix them. That's my daily. I QA software all day long and what is good is left alone, and what is bad needs to be fixed. Our product is vast and massively layered - so I can't test everything. Without the feedback from our users, we'll never catch half of the issues. If our customers stop buying the product, we'll never know what specifically it was that was preventing a purchase. We'll then have to reverse engineer all the layers and take our own infrastructure down to do it.

If that's what Konami is doing, then great. More power to them, and I also can't wait to see the potential reached - or attempted to be reached.

We're going to be buying like £500+ new consoles and the games will probably cost £50+, I think we should be having higher expectations than just buying the best of a bad bunch every year that makes no attempt to take advantage of that hardware (AI/physics like a PS2 game) then just "make the most of it".

There's enough great games out there that if they can't deliver something up to the standards, or even capable of reaching the standards I expect then I'll just play something else. It is "eating up the crap" really to put up with such uninspired sports games just because they're sports games - there's nothing wrong with that if playing sports games is a necessity for you, but come on, surely you can at least admit that they are poor quality video games lacking any innovation when you look at the rest of the industry, especially considering the finances backing EA/Konami.

I like playing good football games, that's why I'm here in the hopes that we'll receive one, but if not then I'm not about to spend hundreds of pounds and potentially the hundreds of hours over the years buying and compiling feedback on bad ones that will inevitably get ignored or not implemented anyway. It hasn't worked for the people like yourself that have tried and it seems unfeasible on a technical level anyway with the fundamentals they are built on.

We both want the same thing, good sports simulations, and probably both of our ideas of how/if we will get there are ineffective or impossible regardless.

 

[Matt10]

We're going to be buying like £500+ new consoles and the games will probably cost £50+, I think we should be having higher expectations than just buying the best of a bad bunch every year that makes no attempt to take advantage of that hardware (AI/physics like a PS2 game) then just "make the most of it".

There's enough great games out there that if they can't deliver something up to the standards, or even capable of reaching the standards I expect then I'll just play something else. It is "eating up the crap" really to put up with such uninspired sports games just because they're sports games - there's nothing wrong with that if playing sports games is a necessity for you, but come on, surely you can at least admit that they are poor quality video games lacking any innovation when you look at the rest of the industry, especially considering the finances backing EA/Konami.

I like playing good football games, that's why I'm here in the hopes that we'll receive one, but if not then I'm not about to spend hundreds of pounds and potentially the hundreds of hours over the years buying and compiling feedback on bad ones that will inevitably get ignored or not implemented anyway. It hasn't worked for the people like yourself that have tried and it seems unfeasible on a technical level anyway with the fundamentals they are built on.

We both want the same thing, good sports simulations, and probably both of our ideas of how/if we will get there are ineffective or impossible regardless.

Yes we do want the same things. However, just because we want the same things does not mean that the pursuit should be discouraged. Your pursuit is setting your expectations and making it known. That is completely fine, and not once have I discouraged your expectations.

All I ask is you stop discouraging those who have put in the effort to approach that pursuit in a different way than yours.