eFootball PES 2021 Discussion Thread (CONSOLES)

[rojofa]

Where I slightly differ is I actually like more micro management and less of the defending and player positioning done for me..Imo it adds and doesn’t detract..The less hand holding the better.Imo it’s more to think about and do and it actually takes thought and understanding of defending in different phases of play..I can’t understand how that’s perceived as weakening and is more a example of trying to evolve something into something more intelligent and skill based.

I could understand this approach from people who play as if they are e-sports pro gamers, not from people who want a realistic football simulation.

Player positioning, timing of runs, marking, spatial awareness etc are all vital aspects of player individuality, and part of the challenge of putting together a team of players with characteristics like this who complement the team's tactics. When every player acts like a braindead idiot unless they are under your direct control, you kill off all of these crucial aspects of player individuality and team tactics.

You don't directly control a single movement or kick of the ball in Football Manager, but based on the system you play, player attributes and instructions for each player you can vastly change their effectiveness as a team. The same should be true of the player selection and tactical options in PES/FIFA, this is where much of the challenge and depth of ML/Career modes should come from, not from performing controller gymnastics to stop yourself conceding goals by controlling 3 defenders at once into their correct positions to stop a simple ball over the top. The skill in defending shouldn't just be in micromanaging on the pitch, it should be in the management off the pitch as well.

Where do you even stop with the micromanagement... What if they started selling extra peripherals for analog sticks you control with your feet to control 4 players at once, maybe another 2 for your elbows to control 6 players... Switching between players on one controller is very a clunky way of doing it and you can't switch quickly or accurately enough to manage all player's positions accurately. Even when you do correct one player's position/direction to track someone, as soon as you switch away to another player they'll do something stupid anyway. Now you even have to pretty much tell your players when/where to run in attack, when in PS2 PES this was based on player attributes with no "trigger run" button.

If they do want braindead absent AI mode for elite online pro gamers, at least make it optional or a slider so that offline sim players can still have player individuality in positioning/movement and awareness. You should also be able to enjoy a somewhat realistic representation of football without requiring the dexterity or mental energy to control 3 or 4+ players at once. Older, handicapped or simply less skilled/knowledgable players shouldn't be locked out of a realistic football experience in all modes because they don't have e-sports level gaming skills.

 

[koningfrikandel]

Unfortunately when you take everything that I said and add everything that you said - it makes Pes20 a bad game.
Its simply not 2020 standards.

I didnt even touch scripting/cheating in Master League, I wanted to focus only on broken basics. And lets be honest - referees and player awareness are basics.

When you add to it this constant feeling of being cheated in Master League and very boring, one dimensional goals - whats left there? Not much.

You get the odd few minutes, where the game floats nicely and feels nice, but you are just waiting for some bullshit moment that will kill the entire match for you.

When you conceive goals - 9/10 times you feel that there was something shady about the whole situation. Its simply not enjoyable.

Whatever they did with the AI, whatever shortcut they took to make it challenging - its just causing frustration, not challenge.
AI has no individuality, its flat, boring and predictable. And then there are those moments where everything works for them and nothing works for you. Its fake and its cheap.

This is not me moaning about how difficult the game is, dont get me wrong. Its not difficulty, its just soul-less, fake challenge that annoys me. Even my own goals give zero satisfaction.

I have played ISS Pro Evo last few days, on ps1. Its clunky as fuck, but 20 year old game felt more authentic than this. Good players were standing out, AI was unpredictable, I had smart, sneaky fouls, clever passes and more variety in shots than Pes20.
This is not nostalgia speaking. These are facts. These games can still surprise you with elements that you simply wont find in Pes20. Because they put a lot of effort into how CPU controlled players should behave.

After Pes17, which was the last one where they spent some time on AI individuality, it all went downhill.
They focused on UserVsUser gameplay and it affected everything.
And all the issues we are having? They probably are connected to this one way or another.
We get player awareness issues, coz CPU controlled players are zombies.
You get one dimensional goals, coz CPU controlled players are all limited in a ways they make runs.
Its one big vicious circle of poo.
Until they realise that your team is one big organism, that has to "think" - we will always end up with the same, soul-less experience. Both offline and online.

Worded perfectly and encapsulates my thoughts to a tee.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

I could understand this approach from people who play as if they are e-sports pro gamers, not from people who want a realistic football simulation.

Player positioning, timing of runs, marking, spatial awareness etc are all vital aspects of player individuality, and part of the challenge of putting together a team of players with characteristics like this who complement the team's tactics. When every player acts like a braindead idiot unless they are under your direct control, you kill off all of these crucial aspects of player individuality and team tactics.

You don't directly control a single movement or kick of the ball in Football Manager, but based on the system you play, player attributes and instructions for each player you can vastly change their effectiveness as a team. The same should be true of the player selection and tactical options in PES/FIFA, this is where much of the challenge and depth of ML/Career modes should come from, not from performing controller gymnastics to stop yourself conceding goals by controlling 3 defenders at once into their correct positions to stop a simple ball over the top. The skill in defending shouldn't just be in micromanaging on the pitch, it should be in the management off the pitch as well.

Where do you even stop with the micromanagement... What if they started selling extra peripherals for analog sticks you control with your feet to control 4 players at once, maybe another 2 for your elbows to control 6 players... Switching between players on one controller is very a clunky way of doing it and you can't switch quickly or accurately enough to manage all player's positions accurately. Even when you do correct one player's position/direction to track someone, as soon as you switch away to another player they'll do something stupid anyway. Now you even have to pretty much tell your players when/where to run in attack, when in PS2 PES this was based on player attributes with no "trigger run" button.

If they do want braindead absent AI mode for elite online pro gamers, at least make it optional or a slider so that offline sim players can still have player individuality in positioning/movement and awareness. You should also be able to enjoy a somewhat realistic representation of football without requiring the dexterity or mental energy to control 3 or 4+ players at once. Older, handicapped or simply less skilled/knowledgable players shouldn't be locked out of a realistic football experience in all modes because they don't have e-sports level gaming skills.

I think me and you are going to get on like a house on fire....Beautifully worded and articulated post..Thankyou for explaining your rational...

I don’t think mine and your ideal is any different..I was talking up having two cursor options much like we have now..Allowing the user more direct control of tracking players back(keeping the cursor on that DM so your back four stays compact and goal side)or making micro adjustments to the back four rather then it being forced.I wasn’t suggesting players just shut off and just loose all position sense unless constantly managed.Both games offer this option now and it’s welcome imo.

Just about being able to switch to the next player near by to stop that defending you have no influence over being dragged towards the ball carrier or the ability to fill a gap quickly thats been left from a forward.Football is just as much about maintaining structural integrity as it is everything else.Having a greater control of that is never a bad thing imo.

 

[rojofa]

I think me and you are going to get on like a house on fire....Beautifully worded and articulated post..Thankyou for explaining your rational...

I don’t think mine and your ideal is any different..I was talking up having two cursor options much like we have now..Allowing the user more direct control of tracking players back(keeping the cursor on that DM so your back four stays compact and goal side)or making micro adjustments to the back four rather then it being forced.I wasn’t suggesting players just shut off and just loose all position sense unless constantly managed.Both games offer this option now and it’s welcome imo.

Just about being able to switch to the next player near by to stop that defending you have no influence over being dragged towards the ball carrier or the ability to fill a gap quickly thats been left from a forward.Football is just as much about maintaining structural integrity as it is everything else.Having a greater control of that is never a bad thing imo.

It seems like we agree on the principles of how a football game should work, but I struggle to see how you can make a statement like the one I bolded here, while also saying you like how it works in FIFA 20, because that statement is exactly how it works in FIFA 20. It's pretty much every offline player's #1 complaint with the game how only one player at a time isn't a braindead idiot. Even the single player CPU AI is programmed to suffer from this "1v1" mechanic where only one player actively participates in the match at a time. People have worked endlessly on gameplay mods and sliders to try to eradicate this mechanic and haven't managed to do so.

I can understand wanting the ability to directly control the action as much as possible to influence the game, I'm not saying the game should 99% play itself, but AI not performing even basic positioning, tracking and marking so it needs to be overridden to even act like a cohesive unit is not a good thing. We shouldn't advocate for worse/nonexistent AI just to give the user "more control".

Anyway this is way off-topic and I'm not going to break down or discuss FIFA 20 any more. I'm glad we seem to be on the same page otherwise though.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

It seems like we agree on the principles of how a football game should work, but I struggle to see how you can make a statement like the one I bolded here, while also saying you like how it works in FIFA 20, because that statement is exactly how it works in FIFA 20. It's pretty much every offline player's #1 complaint with the game how only one player at a time isn't a braindead idiot. Even the single player CPU AI is programmed to suffer from this "1v1" mechanic where only one player actively participates in the match at a time. People have worked endlessly on gameplay mods and sliders to try to eradicate this mechanic and haven't managed to do so.

I can understand wanting the ability to directly control the action as much as possible to influence the game, I'm not saying the game should 99% play itself, but AI not performing even basic positioning, tracking and marking so it needs to be overridden to even act like a cohesive unit is not a good thing. We shouldn't advocate for worse/nonexistent AI just to give the user "more control".

Anyway this is way off-topic and I'm not going to break down or discuss FIFA 20 any more. I'm glad we seem to be on the same page otherwise though.

I’ve only played fifa20 for a day..My experience with it so far has been positive(I only play fully manual).Coming off the back a lot of pes20 late last year pre-patch it’s felt like a breath of fresh air..Maybe it’s the freedom or the offensive play.I haven’t found the defensive side of the game particularly jarring or quite as lifeless as you state.More a challenge and something that at times requires a little more dexterity.

The game holds up well..I’m not able to just blast the ball forward and easily bypass the cpu back line or midfield.Pass and move is back and all the intelligent off the ball movement offensively is there.Manual passing requires the correct foot positioning and passing to players in a bad body position will just scuff or be very weak and wayward if hit first time,same for shooting(again manual )..I have to break teams down until space or teams open up.Then you have those fast counters and 1 on 1s..Having fast players makes a real difference to..Its pretty playable stuff.

Anyone back on topic and yes pes20 does use a very similiar system which I was referencing more then the one used in FIFA20..

 

[pellandi]

Ok. First i hear Pes 2021 will just be a season update. Teams in right league and players in teams. No actual difference in gameplay. Then i read it cost about 30-40 dollars?!!! How is that possible? Or have i missed something?

 

[Ameppe]

Have to report it because i read this but obviously i don't believe it at all:

Robbye Ron said that they improved the collision detections between players and referees.

 

[5_Gullit]

Just posting here new info, you choose to believe or not...

 

[gabe.paul.logan]

Just posting here new info, you choose to believe or not...

 

[fregen]

Just posting here new info, you choose to believe or not...

I hate Placebo, such a lousy band...

 

[5_Gullit]

Again, just posting the info, i'm not trying to make anyone to buy the game.
Looking what happened with 2020, even if the gameplay it's improved a lot, it does not garantee that will be good after the first Data Pack.

 

[fregen]

Again, just posting the info, i'm not trying to make anyone to buy the game.
Looking what happened with 2020, even if the gameplay it's improved a lot, it does not garantee that will be good after the first Data Pack.

I get it mate, sorry if you felt it was a dig at you.

 

[AntonyC_PESCustomFaces]

It seems like we agree on the principles of how a football game should work, but I struggle to see how you can make a statement like the one I bolded here, while also saying you like how it works in FIFA 20, because that statement is exactly how it works in FIFA 20. It's pretty much every offline player's #1 complaint with the game how only one player at a time isn't a braindead idiot. Even the single player CPU AI is programmed to suffer from this "1v1" mechanic where only one player actively participates in the match at a time. People have worked endlessly on gameplay mods and sliders to try to eradicate this mechanic and haven't managed to do so.

I can understand wanting the ability to directly control the action as much as possible to influence the game, I'm not saying the game should 99% play itself, but AI not performing even basic positioning, tracking and marking so it needs to be overridden to even act like a cohesive unit is not a good thing. We shouldn't advocate for worse/nonexistent AI just to give the user "more control".

Anyway this is way off-topic and I'm not going to break down or discuss FIFA 20 any more. I'm glad we seem to be on the same page otherwise though.

Sorry to chip in on your conversation. The AI acts completely differently if you play Fixed Cursor in an offline match. Very rarely do you see a miscontrolled pass. Never have I ever seen a 30 yard pass smack the receiving player in the nuts. Never have I seen a fast player suddenly lose pace.
Regular Cursor Settings is a completely different story! I really, really don't know what the Devs have done to this game when you're effectively just trying to play a "Normal" offline match.

And for the record... PES 2020 is the worst game for AI decision making I have ever experienced in the whole of the 20 years I've been playing PES.
I remember PS1,PS2 & PS3 versions of the game where very rarely would you have to summon a player to make a run into space. They just did it automatically! And it's then down to the passing ability of your controlled player which determines how good the pass is.
And in my opinion, there aren't any standout players in PES anymore. Even 92+ Rated players or Speed Demons can't help you out of a rut. Before, you invested heavily in great players or players with high abilities in certain areas, so when the chips are down, you have chance, you call upon those special players. Not any more!
I posted footage of Ogbonna who has Top Speed of 71 and Acceleration of 70, in a 1v1 foot race with Jamie Vardy (88 Top Speed, 89 Acceleration), Green Stamina. They literally started off on the same foot, same stance, almost side by side... Ogbonna was like Linford Christie chasing after the ice-cream van... The gap got wider, wider and wider!
PES2020 = DELETED

 

[StrangelyEnough]

There’s bound to be a little tweaking and further optimisation of 2020..I would expect the Gfx to also be slightly enhanced.

Not to sure whether they can completely stop the dead zoning that got worse with every patch(defenders/players not reacting freezing)The dead zoning for me has been a legacy of the fox engine that has in fairness got better with every iteration but is still there.

This may well turn out to be a good thing..Im don’t expect they would of thrown everything into polishing this..But they do have a sense of pride and I bet there’s a few people that have done some work on the gameplay.

Ultimetly we all may be surprised and the fact they have been so insular this year may demonstrate there better off being left to there own devices rather then the yearly demo and early feedback debarkel.There’s even a chance there’s been some enhancements to shooting.Work would of been done last year that never made the cut for release.Things you just can’t patch into a game that need to be hard-coded.

 

[slamsoze]

There’s bound to be a little tweaking and further optimisation of 2020..I would expect the Gfx to also be slightly enhanced.

Not to sure whether they can completely stop the dead zoning that got worse with every patch(defenders/players not reacting freezing)The dead zoning for me has been a legacy of the fox engine that has in fairness got better with every iteration but is still there.

This may well turn out to be a good thing..Im don’t expect they would of thrown everything into polishing this..But they do have a sense of pride and I bet there’s a few people that have done some work on the gameplay.

Ultimetly we all may be surprised and the fact they have been so insular this year may demonstrate there better off being left to there own devices rather then the yearly demo and early feedback debarkel.There’s even a chance there’s been some enhancements to shooting.Work would of been done last year that never made the cut for release.Things you just can’t patch into a game that need to be hard-coded.

Dead zoning is the legacy of fox engine? And it got better every new iteration?

Have you played Pes 2015-2016-2017-2018?
I have about 500~1000 hours in each of those and I do not remember a significant moment, where non-cursor player could not acknowledge where is the ball or the action.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

I wouldn’t argue with your playing time or passion..Your recall on those earlier games isn’t something I want to question.

When I say deadzoning I’m mean the teamate AI only being active when the ball is in there zone of play..Moving back into there predetermined zone even though there feet away from a dangerous phase of play.Forwards moving into the box off the ball yet seemingly oblivious to the passage of play.

With every iteration it’s got better and the teammate AI has become more reactive.

 

[slamsoze]

I wouldn’t argue with your playing time or passion..Your recall on those earlier games isn’t something I want to question.

When I say deadzoning I’m mean the teamate AI only being active when the ball is in there zone of play..Moving back into there predetermined zone even though there feet away from a dangerous phase of play.Forwards moving into the box off the ball yet seemingly oblivious to the passage of play.

With every iteration it’s got better and the teammate AI has become more reactive.

I don't have a problem, if you question my passion.
I just try to avoid a cherry picking debate.
And here I am I will cherry pick now
I will post a video of mine, check if you want from 5:35 to 6:02, focus on how my CF G. Pazzini moves off the ball and how he exploits the opponent DF setup, despite 2016 has weak defending.
I believe only 2016 & 2018 has so strong off the ball AI movement in attack.
And I find 2019 and 2020 very scarecrow, regarding teammates cpu controlled, both in attack and defense.
But that's just me. Sorry for the pop up.

 

[rojofa]

Sorry to chip in on your conversation. The AI acts completely differently if you play Fixed Cursor in an offline match. Very rarely do you see a miscontrolled pass. Never have I ever seen a 30 yard pass smack the receiving player in the nuts. Never have I seen a fast player suddenly lose pace.
Regular Cursor Settings is a completely different story! I really, really don't know what the Devs have done to this game when you're effectively just trying to play a "Normal" offline match.

And for the record... PES 2020 is the worst game for AI decision making I have ever experienced in the whole of the 20 years I've been playing PES.
I remember PS1,PS2 & PS3 versions of the game where very rarely would you have to summon a player to make a run into space. They just did it automatically! And it's then down to the passing ability of your controlled player which determines how good the pass is.
And in my opinion, there aren't any standout players in PES anymore. Even 92+ Rated players or Speed Demons can't help you out of a rut. Before, you invested heavily in great players or players with high abilities in certain areas, so when the chips are down, you have chance, you call upon those special players. Not any more!
I posted footage of Ogbonna who has Top Speed of 71 and Acceleration of 70, in a 1v1 foot race with Jamie Vardy (88 Top Speed, 89 Acceleration), Green Stamina. They literally started off on the same foot, same stance, almost side by side... Ogbonna was like Linford Christie chasing after the ice-cream van... The gap got wider, wider and wider!
PES2020 = DELETED

I hadn't tried fixed cursor mode in 2020, and sorry but I'm not reinstalling it to try now

It makes sense though if in fixed cursor mode you can't manually send other players on runs, I assume that's the case. If you're in a cursor setting where you're capable of making your players run, then the game leaves it up to you to do it.

Players off the ball only seem to try to sprint at full speed when either you send them on a run manually, or use super cancel when controlling them yourself. In normal gameplay they'll get outpaced like Vardy does there...

Agree about players not standing out, especially in terms of positioning/runs. In PES5 where you couldn't trigger runs manually, I remember players like Inzaghi and Solskjaer being really useful because of their ability to stay onside, and poaching in the box and generally just being in the right place at the right time. Now that kind of player isn't that useful in PES, you might as well just put a faster/stronger/technical player up front because the timing of their run is controlled by yourself.

 

[slamsoze]

And just to clarify my POV, regardless of hours playing, edition preferred, etc, I am the type of player that almost always do not skip the highlight replays in game, but I am watching them and try to analyze what better option could I do. So I pay a lot attention to how my CPU are moving, in order to see if they created a better position or possible path, in order to answer my self:
Was it good choice to shoot/dribble there, or I should pass to X/Y teammate?

This is kind of a ritual I am doing since highlight replays were introduced, in ps2 Era.

So I am noticing a lot the AI controlled teammates. What is my feeling from 2019 and 2020 teamates AI, is that they feel dumped down and moving more rigid straight forward, in such a degree, that if you place a chair in their path, they will crash on the chair.

 

[slamsoze]

Dzień dobry! Czy znajduje się konwerter dzięki któremu można przekonwertować stadiony że starszych edycji pesa do pes 2020?

...????

I understood only the djen dobry, it must be Good morning!!

 

[PRO_TOO]

...????

I understood only the djen dobry, it must be Good morning!!

Yeah. Got that part as well.

Something “special edition 2020” I can see too. “Converter for stadiums of the special edition”?!

Help us out here @Razok1209 , in English please. So we can help you, lad!


Btw: I totally lost the launch out of side. Been playing so many great games this year, been waiting for THPS and Mafia... I kinda wasnt focus towards launch date to much. Had a good match (ManUnited vs. PSG) last night with the vanilla sandbox (after nearly 2 weeks of no PES).
So only 2 weeks to go now...? That’s the first launch of a PES game I’m not super hyped for. Just saying.

 

[el niche]

Is there a brave soul that has this already preordered to see if there are actual changes? I really doubt the changes are going to warrant a buy though, seeing as there have been multiple data packs with gameplay changes but nothing gamechanger, even just making gameplay worse

 

[Razok1209]

And would there be people who would help to create a patch for the Polish Premier League, I am a specialist in this matter 😔

 

[Dennis_87]

Is there a brave soul that has this already preordered to see if there are actual changes?

Yes,i have.
When the alternative option is a looney tunes circus game then this is my only solution if i want to play a footy game that at least looks and feels kinda close to some degree to what i'm seeing in a real match in tv.And that's big enough for me.
Also except from offline,i also play online,and the bonuses that come for online with the preorder is a good deal for the 28 euros that i payed.

Personally speaking,the older games are too arcady for my liking and/or outdated as fuck in many departments,so for me it's not an option.

What is funny to me is that some of these arcady elements have improved/fixed and become more sim oriented and still almost no one here has anything good to say about it.But they were all very vocal in the previous years to point out the issues...
I remember the constant bashing about the very assisted ping pong passing,the constantly perfect AI backheels,the lack of physicality,the too quick and arcady rhythm/flow,the too perfect touches from all players etc...

These things have been better and more realistic in 20/21.PA1 is more free and has more error if you try to ping pong mindleslly all the time and the passing in general is slower which gives a more realistic and natural feel.Body positioning plays a massive role in anything you do.The AI doesn't spam perfect backheels all the time like robots and when they try it they're much more prone to making mistakes.Physicality is more evident than ever,and even if body collisions are not always great looking,it still gives a more natural feel with players battling for possesion where in previous versions it was almost nonexistent and felt like playing softball.The rhythm/flow of the game is the more natural and humanlike/realistic that has been probably since PES 14.The touches are also more natural with more error when in previous years every player no matter the stats had the touch of Zidane in every situation.

Why is no one ever mentioning anything positive about these improvements since this is a so sim-oriented forum afterall..?
Aren't they important enough..?Well you surely made them look important with your constant bashing through the last years..
So what is changed now?All of a sudden nothing of all of these matters anymore and our biggest problem became the referees..?
Yeah like we somehow had the best flawless referees of the world in the previous games and now it's completely the opposite and so game breaking that nothing else matters huh..?I mean c'mon people..

Yes there are issues with the game that surely must improve furthermore but there were always issues with the game in the past also and always will be in the future too.But some things have improved and became more realistic and i don't think that this game takes the props that it deserves in some departments around here...It seems like people forget too quickly..Do you actually remember the arcady shit that you were playing some years ago..?
And this right here is supposed to be the worst PES ever..?Lol..People acting like they were playing some secret flawless versions of the game from the depths of Tokyo or something in the past that i never heard of or played and now they can't stand this super inferior version..

By the way,i'm not responding directly personally to you @el niche lol.
It's a general comment.I just replied to you for the preorder comment and then some more things came to my mind..

 

[superleeds1]

And would there be people who would help to create a patch for the Polish Premier League, I am a specialist in this matter 😔

Please specialise in speaking English on this forum then.Previous two posts dumped.

 

[Matt10]

Yes,i have.
When the alternative option is a looney tunes circus game then this is my only solution if i want to play a footy game that at least looks and feels kinda close to some degree to what i'm seeing in a real match in tv.And that's big enough for me.
Also except from offline,i also play online,and the bonuses that comes for online with the preorder are a good deal for the 28 euros that i payed.

Personally speaking,the older games are too arcady for my liking and/or outdated as fuck in many departments,so for me it's not an option.

What is funny to me is that some of these arcady elements have improved/fixed and become more sim oriented and still almost no one here has anything good to say about it.But they were all very vocal in the previous years to point out the issues...
I remember the constant bashing about the very assisted ping pong passing,the constantly perfect AI backheels,the lack of physicality,the too quick and arcady rythm/flow,the too perfect touches from all players etc...

These things have been better and more realistic in 20/21.PA1 is more free and has more error if you try to ping pong mindleslly all the time and the passing in general is slower which gives a more realistic and natural feel.Body positioning plays a massive role in anything you do.The AI doesn't spam perfect backheels all the time like robots and when they try it they're much more prone to making mistakes.Physicality is more evident than ever,and even if body collisions are not always great looking,it still gives a more natural feel with players battling for possesion where in previous versions it was almost nonexistent and felt like playing softball.The rythm/flow of the game is the more natural and humanlike/realistic that has been probably since PES 14.The touches are also more natural with more error when in previous years every player no matter the stats had the touch of Zidane in every situation.

Why is no one ever mentioning anything positive about these improvements since this is a so sim-oriented forum afterall..?
Aren't they important enough..?Well you surely made them look important with your constant bashing through the last years..
So what is changed now?All of a sudden nothing of all of these matters anymore and our biggest problem became the referees..?
Yeah like we somehow had the best flawless referees of the world in the previous games and now it's completely the opposite and so game breaking that nothing else matters huh..?I mean c'mon people..

Yes there are issues with the game that surely must improve furthermore but there were always issues with the game in the past also and always will be in the future too.But some things have improved and became more realistic and i don't think that this game takes the props that it deserves in some departments around here...It seems like people forget too quickly..Do you actually remember the arcady shit that you were playing some years ago..?
And this right here is supposed to be the worst PES ever..?Lol..People acting like they were playing some secret flawless versions of the game from the depths of Tokyo or something in the past that i never heard of or played and now they can't stand this super inferior version..

By the way,i'm not responding directly personally to you @el niche lol.
It's a general comment.I just replied to you for the preorder comment and then some more things came to my mind..

For me, the biggest issue is the rigid tactics. Throughout the years, ever since the introduction, it's been an absolute chore to enjoy. Playing against a team with long ball + deep defensive line is just the worst experience. I'm just not optimistic in the possibility of PES 2021 reducing the effectiveness of that gameplay element.

In terms of positives, there are a lot. Unfortunately, the negatives are just so powerful, that it overwhelms the experience overall. I am curious about 21, so it may be a random buy to see what has changed, if anything.

 

[Chilleverest]

Any gameplay footage out there ?

 

[PRO_TOO]

Yes,i have.
When the alternative option is a looney tunes circus game then this is my only solution if i want to play a footy game that at least looks and feels kinda close to some degree to what i'm seeing in a real match in tv.And that's big enough for me.
Also except from offline,i also play online,and the bonuses that come for online with the preorder is a good deal for the 28 euros that i payed.

Personally speaking,the older games are too arcady for my liking and/or outdated as fuck in many departments,so for me it's not an option.

What is funny to me is that some of these arcady elements have improved/fixed and become more sim oriented and still almost no one here has anything good to say about it.But they were all very vocal in the previous years to point out the issues...
I remember the constant bashing about the very assisted ping pong passing,the constantly perfect AI backheels,the lack of physicality,the too quick and arcady rhythm/flow,the too perfect touches from all players etc...

These things have been better and more realistic in 20/21.PA1 is more free and has more error if you try to ping pong mindleslly all the time and the passing in general is slower which gives a more realistic and natural feel.Body positioning plays a massive role in anything you do.The AI doesn't spam perfect backheels all the time like robots and when they try it they're much more prone to making mistakes.Physicality is more evident than ever,and even if body collisions are not always great looking,it still gives a more natural feel with players battling for possesion where in previous versions it was almost nonexistent and felt like playing softball.The rhythm/flow of the game is the more natural and humanlike/realistic that has been probably since PES 14.The touches are also more natural with more error when in previous years every player no matter the stats had the touch of Zidane in every situation.

Why is no one ever mentioning anything positive about these improvements since this is a so sim-oriented forum afterall..?
Aren't they important enough..?Well you surely made them look important with your constant bashing through the last years..
So what is changed now?All of a sudden nothing of all of these matters anymore and our biggest problem became the referees..?
Yeah like we somehow had the best flawless referees of the world in the previous games and now it's completely the opposite and so game breaking that nothing else matters huh..?I mean c'mon people..

Yes there are issues with the game that surely must improve furthermore but there were always issues with the game in the past also and always will be in the future too.But some things have improved and became more realistic and i don't think that this game takes the props that it deserves in some departments around here...It seems like people forget too quickly..Do you actually remember the arcady shit that you were playing some years ago..?
And this right here is supposed to be the worst PES ever..?Lol..People acting like they were playing some secret flawless versions of the game from the depths of Tokyo or something in the past that i never heard of or played and now they can't stand this super inferior version..

By the way,i'm not responding directly personally to you @el niche lol.
It's a general comment.I just replied to you for the preorder comment and then some more things came to my mind..

SO THIS!!!!

It’s human nature, to some part/degree (and that’s no intended or any judgement from my side!!).

People forget or whatever to be thankful or acknowledging for/on the stuff that got fixed or ironed out.

We do hammer on the flaws constantly... the praise and moaning about stuff ain’t equal. There is so much good in the game by now... but still... ^^

I get it and i admitted to many times on the flaws, and it’s basic football stuff we’re talking about... but still...

Try that “judging scheme” on your girlfriend or wife (vice versa boyfriend or husband)! a lot of good stuff with your beloved one... right?!

 

[rojofa]

Yes,i have.
When the alternative option is a looney tunes circus game then this is my only solution if i want to play a footy game that at least looks and feels kinda close to some degree to what i'm seeing in a real match in tv.And that's big enough for me.
Also except from offline,i also play online,and the bonuses that come for online with the preorder is a good deal for the 28 euros that i payed.

Personally speaking,the older games are too arcady for my liking and/or outdated as fuck in many departments,so for me it's not an option.

What is funny to me is that some of these arcady elements have improved/fixed and become more sim oriented and still almost no one here has anything good to say about it.But they were all very vocal in the previous years to point out the issues...
I remember the constant bashing about the very assisted ping pong passing,the constantly perfect AI backheels,the lack of physicality,the too quick and arcady rhythm/flow,the too perfect touches from all players etc...

These things have been better and more realistic in 20/21.PA1 is more free and has more error if you try to ping pong mindleslly all the time and the passing in general is slower which gives a more realistic and natural feel.Body positioning plays a massive role in anything you do.The AI doesn't spam perfect backheels all the time like robots and when they try it they're much more prone to making mistakes.Physicality is more evident than ever,and even if body collisions are not always great looking,it still gives a more natural feel with players battling for possesion where in previous versions it was almost nonexistent and felt like playing softball.The rhythm/flow of the game is the more natural and humanlike/realistic that has been probably since PES 14.The touches are also more natural with more error when in previous years every player no matter the stats had the touch of Zidane in every situation.

Why is no one ever mentioning anything positive about these improvements since this is a so sim-oriented forum afterall..?
Aren't they important enough..?Well you surely made them look important with your constant bashing through the last years..
So what is changed now?All of a sudden nothing of all of these matters anymore and our biggest problem became the referees..?
Yeah like we somehow had the best flawless referees of the world in the previous games and now it's completely the opposite and so game breaking that nothing else matters huh..?I mean c'mon people..

Yes there are issues with the game that surely must improve furthermore but there were always issues with the game in the past also and always will be in the future too.But some things have improved and became more realistic and i don't think that this game takes the props that it deserves in some departments around here...It seems like people forget too quickly..Do you actually remember the arcady shit that you were playing some years ago..?
And this right here is supposed to be the worst PES ever..?Lol..People acting like they were playing some secret flawless versions of the game from the depths of Tokyo or something in the past that i never heard of or played and now they can't stand this super inferior version..

By the way,i'm not responding directly personally to you @el niche lol.
It's a general comment.I just replied to you for the preorder comment and then some more things came to my mind..

Top 10 reasons online play in 2020 (and therefore 2021) is terrible.

1. People can stick it on PA3 to almost negate the increased passing error despite PA1 being improved. Pass assistance matchmaking doesn't exist in all modes, neither does it stop PA1vPA3, it just means you could get PA0vPA0.
2. The lack of fouls and clunky dribbling (plus any input delay) makes online play a joke. People can just rugby tackle you off the ball. The 20 demo wasn't like this.
3. Online co-op cannot be limited to real football teams. You end up having to play against ridiculous 95+ rated MyClub teams every game.
4. Online co-op cannot be limited to actual human opponents. You end up being matched against some Billy No Mates from Argentina with his 2 CPU partners. You can't do anything with the 3 seconds of input lag while their CPU players do all the work (unaffected by lag of course).
5. I'm not interested in those online casino, lootbox filled, pay/grind-to-win online modes.
6. The balance of those modes is fucked anyway. Within one week in 20 without even playing a match I had a full 90+ team, this is even more exacerbated by pre-order bonuses. With such high rated players everywhere, the amount of pass/shot error is vastly diminished and the game pace is increased. Even beginners to the mode have a vastly superior team to any real team you can use to play against them in Online Co-op.
7. People online play fucking ridiculous anti-football formations/tactics like this. It's either the most boring time wasting "possession" in their back line and/or launching full power chipped through balls up to 99 speed forwards all match. I don't care if you can beat these players by playing a certain way, it's a trash football match even when you win.
8. Shooting is awful. I don't mean ineffective, just boring and predictable. Keepers being so scripted/animation based contributes to this feeling. This has been discussed here a lot. Goals are just meh.
9. Scripted ball physics. People praise this aspect of the game a lot but to me the physics are almost nonexistent. Each animation has a set ball trajectory it applies to a pass/shot and once you've played a few hours you just see the same ones over and over. They've tuned the trajectories to look fairly realistic, but it's not physics - this isn't what we should expect from a football game on this generation. This ties in to the last point about shooting - actual ball physics instead of scripted would result in better shooting.
10. Player awareness - Shit like players letting the ball roll past their feet when they can easily intercept it because no animation happens. Dodgy defensive positioning leaving players in 20 yards of space to receive the ball etc. Players just seem like they're not aware of the ball or opponents most of the time, just rigidly following a position.

Plus the offline CPU is too scripted/boring to play against with ridiculous default tactics set for teams and broken logic for cup games. Even after giving every team about the best tactics people seem to recommend (klashman tactics) it's hardly much better and the main mode (ML) is plagued with the TS mechanic. I can hardly make it to half time in any offline match before just wondering why I'm wasting my time on it.

Older games being worse or more arcadey in your opinion is not a worthwhile response to this, I'm not comparing to any other game here.

I wouldn't download or want to play the 21 season update even if it was free, let alone paying over 20 quid for it.

 

[Dennis_87]

For me, the biggest issue is the rigid tactics. Throughout the years, ever since the introduction, it's been an absolute chore to enjoy. Playing against a team with long ball + deep defensive line is just the worst experience. I'm just not optimistic in the possibility of PES 2021 reducing the effectiveness of that gameplay element.

In terms of positives, there are a lot. Unfortunately, the negatives are just so powerful, that it overwhelms the experience overall. I am curious about 21, so it may be a random buy to see what has changed, if anything.

I agree,but still there are some workarounds for at least some of the issues.
For example,like you're experimenting with sliders for Fifa to find a better gaming experience,in the same way you can go and edit the teams to not play long ball and deep defensive line before you start a ML or something.Yes it's annoying and time consuming,but you could say the same about trying to find the correct slider set all the time..

I just think that there are positives and improvements from the previous versions that don't get mentioned enough,if any..
As much ridiculous it is to not be critical with the game and only praising it,the same ridiculous it is to only bashing it and never say anything good about it's positives..Especially when they are positives that you supposedly wanted to see for all this time..

I understand that different aspects of the game can mean more for some and less for others,but the game has seen improvemets in areas that are supposed to be important for a more sim natural feel that everyone is supposed to care about...For me things like realistic natural flow,more error,realistic weighty feel of the players and the ball and physics and animations in general,are too important to be able to enjoy playing it.Even if it had the perfect AI and tactics but the things that i mentioned before were total shit and unrealistic then i wouldn't play it.You're controlling the players and the ball all the time when you play,that's the actual gameplay in other words..If this feels like shit then no amount of good AI or tactics can save it for me personally.That's why these things are so important for me and that's why even if there are AI issues i can still enjoy it because the things that i like balances it out.
For someone else all these may not be equally important,fair enough.But they seem important when everyone was asking about them some years ago.