eFootball PES 2021 Discussion Thread (CONSOLES)

[Isslander]

I never play it but I suppose MyClub offline is kind of like original Master League? Wasn't that just about scoring points and filling the team with the best players? I am talking Playstation 1 Master League here.

 

[hitmanuk]

I never play it but I suppose MyClub offline is kind of like original Master League? Wasn't that just about scoring points and filling the team with the best players? I am talking Playstation 1 Master League here.

Yeah I think you could buy whoever if you had the right points

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Its really cool place when you hit proper subreddit (r/chelsea for me). Nice discussions, view exchanges etc. WEPES on the other hand its not exactly pleasant experience, it looks like you cant enjoy playing PES, whining on Konami and PES itself are their main goals. Do not even try to say anything nice about game and heaven help you if you mention that PES 2021 has fair price and you gonna buy it because ITS FUN.

For me /WEPES is shit because it's so MyClub heavy. Master League needs its own sub I think.

 

[Ameppe]

I never play it but I suppose MyClub offline is kind of like original Master League? Wasn't that just about scoring points and filling the team with the best players? I am talking Playstation 1 Master League here.

Most important difference: in Myclub who you can sign is completely random, so not really a good master league replacement.

 

[slamsoze]

For me /WEPES is shit because it's so MyClub heavy. Master League needs its own sub I think.

It does have one, but flies pretty low.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WEPESMasterLeague/

 

[preak]

For me /WEPES is shit because it's so MyClub heavy. Master League needs its own sub I think.

I'm was there for any news but some time ago I just realized that evo-web + twitter are much faster. WEPES is filled with frustrated people, I almost ended up eaten alive once just because I've mentioned that their (konami's) UI/UX stuck for years and its hard to read any news/changes posted on the main screen comparing to other games I play - Valorant, CSGO, R6 Siege or freaking Fall Guys. It's like negative level of community managers/developers transparency

 

[bubi1982]

You really think 20 looks better than 19?
With its yellow pitches?
And game play?
Please,20 is the worst Pes game in ages,utter shite!

I personally like the look of PES 20, especially the camera, the only thing I would like in 20 from 19 are those gray game graphic. It was perfect for me. I just dont like pink/purple from 20. That is why I bought pc version too.

I like how Euro 2020 looks. It would be great if we can use these match graphic in other mods.

As for yellow color, I always play my games at day time. That way I don't have yellow turf haha

 

[rockstrongo]

As for yellow color, I always play my games at day time. That way I don't have yellow turf haha

Life-Hack!

Yeah the cameras are great,I haven't played the Euro DLC (mainly because I hate this game)

I think lightning etc out of the box on this are way off,to much colour,to dark in the stands etc.
To me 19 is way better in those departments

 

[Emack32]

If you pre order a club edition, can you use the classic kit in-game?

 

[ozfootball]

If you pre order a club edition, can you use the classic kit in-game?

I would think so yes

 

[gabe.paul.logan]

Kinda in the same baot

 

[rojofa]

Kinda in the same baot

There's loads of videos about the latest Madden after the backlash and Metacritic review bombing, hashtags that were tranding (#FixMaddenFranchise, #NFLdropEA) etc.

They have some great community members/content creators regularly pointing out EA's nonsense, broken/neglected offline modes/gameplay and their videos are quite popular. They may be talking about American sports I don't follow or understand, but their views are almost a perfect reflection of the issues with football (or as they would say, soccer ) games anyway. We need more people like this in our communities for our sports games.

Here's a couple of channels I've enjoyed watching recently for that reason;
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf45JS_dhms2fPfxTiqDZ0w (SOFTDRINKTV)
https://www.youtube.com/c/RyanMoody21/

A video about the problem with sports games (and their consumers) generally, applies perfectly to our situation with modern PES/FIFA;

 

[Dennis_87]

They do, I agree.

If I told you I hate Dark Souls coz Im trying to play it like Witcher, hacking away hordes of enemies, you could tell me its not supposed to be played like this and I need a different approach.

But no approach will help if the basics like referees, player awareness, collisions and AI are broken. You'll be stepping into the same puddle of poo, just in different ways.

I think this is not @rockstrongo first rodeo.
He played enough PES titles to know that approach might need adjustments from title to title. And approach is not the issue here.

You're right,there are issues in the departments you're mentioning.In the end it all just comes to if it's game breaking enough for someone or not.For me there are other things that i like in the game and the positives outweigh the negatives so i'm still able to enjoy the game.And it's not that we have many options.It's either this or Fifa.So if you want to play a footy game you must choose and play it even with it's issues and try to enjoy it for whatever good things it may have.

My point was that this ''you're playing it wrong'' arguement is not always a ridiculous one as it sounds and it may be a valid point sometimes.By the way,i'm not saying that rockstrongo is playing it wrong or anything and that's why he doesn't like it lol.He may be just not liking the game's mechanics or whatever and that's fine.I'm speaking in general and from my experiences playing the game.

In 19 i had a more direct approach with many 1-2's etc as the game was faster and more arcady in everything.When i tried to play like this in 20 i realized after some matches that i can't be as much succsessful with this approach as the passes were slower and had more error in PA1 which i play and also touches are not so perfect anymore and body positioning plays a bigger role in whatever you want to do.So i had to change the approach to a more patient one where i must think more for every pass and control that i make and i liked that cause it gave me a more realistic feel overall.Also body shielding the ball correctly and knowing when to do it played a bigger part than previous years.

Another example is,if i play an opponent online and he knows how to correctly press me with using the second man press in the right way by closing passing lanes then he can do it effectively and causes me problems.But if he's just running mindlessly towards me with his player and never take his finger off the x button,then he can leave massive gaps behind which i can exploit.Now he could just sitting there and say ''oh i hate this game i can't defend it's so shit''..but if he had a mate there next to him he could say to him that ''man you're not playing this correctly..stop running everywhere like a headless chicken and try to be more patient and closing more passing lanes without leaving all these gaps behind''..and he would be correct.

Now i'm not saying that this is always the answer to all the problems and yes there are awareness and positioning issues,still not to a game breaking point in my opinion.But it always helps if you try to adapt to the different situations and think a step ahead of what may happen.It can save you even from a bad AI decision sometimes.

And i'm not only talking about online which i play the most.I also play offline 15 min matches many times when i want something more relaxing without being so much try hard as in an online match.Referees can be dodgy at times and give silly fouls or not give other obvious ones,but i'm not finding it any near game breaking.Most of their whistles are correct.Game breaking for me would be if 9 out of 10 decisions were not correct but this isn't the case.I'm seeing at least 4-5 fouls if not more in a 15 min match most of the times.It could be a bit better if they were 6-7 but fair enough.Personally i'm not so bothered if i don't get 2-3 more fouls.In Fifa you're lucky if you'll even get 1-2 from a 15 min match.There are other things more important for me.And like some guys say above yes,it helps if you're trying to keep the ball more to win some more fouls.If you get rid off the ball as soon as you get it and always playing tiki taka then it's normal that you won't get as many fouls if the opponents are never near you and they don't have the chance to marking you.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

You're right,there are issues in the departments you're mentioning.In the end it all just comes to if it's game breaking enough for someone or not.For me there are other things that i like in the game and the positives outweigh the negatives so i'm still able to enjoy the game.And it's not that we have many options.It's either this or Fifa.So if you want to play a footy game you must choose and play it even with it's issues and try to enjoy it for whatever good things it may have.

My point was that this ''you're playing it wrong'' arguement is not always a ridiculous one as it sounds and it may be a valid point sometimes.By the way,i'm not saying that rockstrongo is playing it wrong or anything and that's why he doesn't like it lol.He may be just not liking the game's mechanics or whatever and that's fine.I'm speaking in general and from my experiences playing the game.

In 19 i had a more direct approach with many 1-2's etc as the game was faster and more arcady in everything.When i tried to play like this in 20 i realized after some matches that i can't be as much succsessful with this approach as the passes were slower and had more error in PA1 which i play and also touches are not so perfect anymore and body positioning plays a bigger role in whatever you want to do.So i had to change the approach to a more patient one where i must think more for every pass and control that i make and i liked that cause it gave me a more realistic feel overall.Also body shielding the ball correctly and knowing when to do it played a bigger part than previous years.

Another example is,if i play an opponent online and he knows how to correctly press me with using the second man press in the right way by closing passing lanes then he can do it effectively and causes me problems.But if he's just running mindlessly towards me with his player and never take his finger off the x button,then he can leave massive gaps behind which i can exploit.Now he could just sitting there and say ''oh i hate this game i can't defend it's so shit''..but if he had a mate there next to him he could say to him that ''man you're not playing this correctly..stop running everywhere like a headless chicken and try to be more patient and closing more passing lanes without leaving all these gaps behind''..and he would be correct.

Now i'm not saying that this is always the answer to all the problems and yes there are awareness and positioning issues,still not to a game breaking point in my opinion.But it always helps if you try to adapt to the different situations and think a step ahead of what may happen.It can save you even from a bad AI decision sometimes.

And i'm not only talking about online which i play the most.I also play offline 15 min matches many times when i want something more relaxing without being so much try hard as in an online match.Referees can be dodgy at times and give silly fouls or not give other obvious ones,but i'm not finding it any near game breaking.Most of their whistles are correct.Game breaking for me would be if 9 out of 10 decisions were not correct but this isn't the case.I'm seeing at least 4-5 fouls if not more in a 15 min match most of the times.It could be a bit better if they were 6-7 but fair enough.Personally i'm not so bothered if i don't get 2-3 more fouls.In Fifa you're lucky if you'll even get 1-2 from a 15 min match.There are other things more important for me.And like some guys say above yes,it helps if you're trying to keep the ball more to win some more fouls.If you get rid off the ball as soon as you get it and always playing tiki taka then it's normal that you won't get as many fouls if the opponents are never near you and they don't have the chance to marking you.

Personally I don’t think pes20 is a bad game either.Well certainly not the base version 1.0..

It’s massively shackled by the technology that drives it but what it does do it does well..

Some of the main gripes were made worse by the patching..But you can’t argue the scripting and the way the game cheats isn’t frustrating and one of the biggest issues as it effects game balance.That said I’m of the believe the game is better when played without any assistance and that imo also applies to FIFA..One thing that also needs highlighting as its pretty much non existent in pes20.Is the ability to really outrun a defender with pace when you have a fast player or really hurt teams on the counter attack..It all still feels to rubber banded and contrived.The game still forces outcomes and at time’s negates forward play to control score lines.

Onto pes2021,there is the possibility although this fundamentally is the same game.That there has been some adjustments to the gameplay,almost like a final edition..Trouble is can the developent team fix the players freezing and not reacting to the ball..The stop delay on through balls when your player is making a run..It’s all these little things that add up and destroy all the good things the game does..Lots of small incremental problems that break the immersion for the player and are just plain frustrating..It’s bad and lazy game design.

Let’s also bare in mind how limited the shooting is and how light interms of variety
Pes is now in all facets of play(they have had 8 years on this engine)..Gets to samey real quick and lacks the individuality of the earlier ps2 games because of stat boosting and the way the script cripples your players ability to even run or make a basic clearance/pass because your winning.

Old pes had momentum shifts,it scripted for you and against you,and it had AI for the time that was arresting and varied/challenging to play against.Now everything is to predefined,your forced to play by the games rules and dare I say it limitations..

 

[Emroth]

Personally I don’t think pes20 is a bad game either.Well certainly not the base version 1.0..

It’s massively shackled by the technology that drives it but what it does do it does well..

Some of the main gripes were made worse by the patching..But you can’t argue the scripting and the way the game cheats isn’t frustrating and one of the biggest issues as it effects game balance.That said I’m of the believe the game is better when played without any assistance and that imo also applies to FIFA..One thing that also needs highlighting as its pretty much non existent in pes20.Is the ability to really outrun a defender with pace when you have a fast player or really hurt teams on the counter attack..It all still feels to rubber banded and contrived.The game still forces outcomes and at time’s negates forward play to control score lines.

Onto pes2021,there is the possibility although this fundamentally is the same game.That there has been some adjustments to the gameplay,almost like a final edition..Trouble is can the developent team fix the players freezing and not reacting to the ball..The stop delay on through balls when your player is making a run..It’s all these little things that add up and destroy all the good things the game does..Lots of small incremental problems that break the immersion for the player and are just plain frustrating..It’s bad and lazy game design.

Let’s also bare in mind how limited the shooting is and how light interms of variety
Pes is now in all facets of play(they have had 8 years on this engine)..

Unfortunately when you take everything that I said and add everything that you said - it makes Pes20 a bad game.
Its simply not 2020 standards.

I didnt even touch scripting/cheating in Master League, I wanted to focus only on broken basics. And lets be honest - referees and player awareness are basics.

When you add to it this constant feeling of being cheated in Master League and very boring, one dimensional goals - whats left there? Not much.

You get the odd few minutes, where the game floats nicely and feels nice, but you are just waiting for some bullshit moment that will kill the entire match for you.

When you conceive goals - 9/10 times you feel that there was something shady about the whole situation. Its simply not enjoyable.

Whatever they did with the AI, whatever shortcut they took to make it challenging - its just causing frustration, not challenge.
AI has no individuality, its flat, boring and predictable. And then there are those moments where everything works for them and nothing works for you. Its fake and its cheap.

This is not me moaning about how difficult the game is, dont get me wrong. Its not difficulty, its just soul-less, fake challenge that annoys me. Even my own goals give zero satisfaction.

I have played ISS Pro Evo last few days, on ps1. Its clunky as fuck, but 20 year old game felt more authentic than this. Good players were standing out, AI was unpredictable, I had smart, sneaky fouls, clever passes and more variety in shots than Pes20.
This is not nostalgia speaking. These are facts. These games can still surprise you with elements that you simply wont find in Pes20. Because they put a lot of effort into how CPU controlled players should behave.

After Pes17, which was the last one where they spent some time on AI individuality, it all went downhill.
They focused on UserVsUser gameplay and it affected everything.
And all the issues we are having? They probably are connected to this one way or another.
We get player awareness issues, coz CPU controlled players are zombies.
You get one dimensional goals, coz CPU controlled players are all limited in a ways they make runs.
Its one big vicious circle of poo.
Until they realise that your team is one big organism, that has to "think" - we will always end up with the same, soul-less experience. Both offline and online.

 

[Ameppe]

They focused on UserVsUser gameplay and it affected everything.

That's the key part.

 

[Anth James]

I have played ISS Pro Evo last few days, on ps1. Its clunky as fuck, but 20 year old game felt more authentic than this. Good players were standing out, AI was unpredictable, I had smart, sneaky fouls, clever passes and more variety in shots than Pes20.
This is not nostalgia speaking. These are facts. These games can still surprise you with elements that you simply wont find in Pes20. Because they put a lot of effort into how CPU controlled players should behave.

I haven’t gone as far back to ISS, but I’ve recently been playing Pes 5, 2013 and 2014 and all of this still applies. They’re all much smarter and more enjoyable than 2020, not even close. It really lost its way in recent years. The tactics system taking over I think has contributed to the downfall too. It just doesn’t feel organic anymore.

I said on another thread as well, it had been so long that I forgot how good the series actually was!

 

[rojofa]

Nearly every goal I've actually enjoyed scoring in PES since like 2013 is simply a result of the build-up play it came from, usually a nice manual pass or cross that came out as I visualised it. The shooting itself, which should be the most thrilling part of the game, is the most boring predictable shite that just makes every attack/goal anticlimactic.

It makes the rest of the gameplay almost irrelevant, when you know it's just building up towards a shot and save animation you will have already seen 10,000 times. The rest of the gameplay isn't even that good anyway, though it has some decent moments.

In 2020 we should expect far, far more from both games. The whole XB1/PS4 generation has been absolutely shite for football games - even if you liked how a game played on this gen, there's been no actual progress made to gameplay/AI/physics whatsoever like what happened when going from PS1 to PS2 to PS3. Some people may even disagree there was improvement from PS2 to PS3, but at least they added 360 degree movement and manual passing. What could anyone even argue was a major gameplay innovation in football games from PS3>PS4? I can't even think of a single one.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

Nearly every goal I've actually enjoyed scoring in PES since like 2013 is simply a result of the build-up play it came from, usually a nice manual pass or cross that came out as I visualised it. The shooting itself, which should be the most thrilling part of the game, is the most boring predictable shite that just makes every attack/goal anticlimactic.

It makes the rest of the gameplay almost irrelevant, when you know it's just building up towards a shot and save animation you will have already seen 10,000 times. The rest of the gameplay isn't even that good anyway, though it has some decent moments.

In 2020 we should expect far, far more from both games. The whole XB1/PS4 generation has been absolutely shite for football games - even if you liked how a game played on this gen, there's been no actual progress made to gameplay/AI/physics whatsoever like what happened when going from PS1 to PS2 to PS3. Some people may even disagree there was improvement from PS2 to PS3, but at least they added 360 degree movement and manual passing. What could anyone even argue was a major gameplay innovation in football games from PS3>PS4? I can't even think of a single one.

Nail on the head with the first two paragraphs(thumbs up)..That said I’m of the believe that fifa20 is one of the better footie games of this generation and personally offline thinks it’s the best FIFA.Technologically it feels and now looks ten years ahead of pes currently.That’s another subject though for another thread.

A new engine would help..But it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the answer or a remedy for poor game design and a legacy of half baked games that just flip-flop between near brilliance and mediacracy.There has been no continuity for two generations.It’s all to easy to blame the technology..

Its a shame..The talents there,as is the expertise and knowledge pool from almost 30 years of coding..

 

[Emroth]

That said I’m of the believe that fifa20 is one of the better footie games of this generation and personally offline thinks it’s the best FIFA.Technologically it feels and now looks ten years ahead of pes currently.

Agree and disagree at the same time.
It does have elements that are light years ahead of Konami. But it suffers due to same element that Pes is suffering - dumbed down AI. I wont say more here, coz its not FIFA thread.
Bottom line is - both games are nowhere near where they should be, because developers discovered the pot of gold hidden in online microtransactions and put all the efforts into USER controlled gameplay.

 

[StrangelyEnough]

T

Agree and disagree at the same time.
It does have elements that are light years ahead of Konami. But it suffers due to same element that Pes is suffering - dumbed down AI. I wont say more here, coz its not FIFA thread.
Bottom line is - both games are nowhere near where they should be, because developers discovered the pot of gold hidden in online microtransactions and put all the efforts into USER controlled gameplay.

I think any real innovation now is going to be more physics and animation based then it is AI..Great AI has been around for generations it’s always been the geometry and animation part of game design that has restricted that..We learnt years ago that it’s very easy to program AI that can easily think faster and outwit even the sharpest human.Thats mathematics.Its been more a case of dumbing it down to appear more human or get it to work within the limited playing field or environment your creating.


Going as far back as ISS you had AI that felt near human and when it came to teammate AI,I never remember a lack of desire,in-ability to read danger or teammates totally lacking any sense of what’s happening around them.Games felt dynamic,alive and great play,holding the ball meant the rub or momentum went in your favour..When confidence was low you felt that nervesness in touch and had to claw and fight to get the rub of the green..This stuff wasn’t placebo,mind trickery..It was little touches to the AI that gave those games personality and a soul.

 

[Madmac79]

Nearly every goal I've actually enjoyed scoring in PES since like 2013 is simply a result of the build-up play it came from, usually a nice manual pass or cross that came out as I visualised it. The shooting itself, which should be the most thrilling part of the game, is the most boring predictable shite that just makes every attack/goal anticlimactic.

It makes the rest of the gameplay almost irrelevant, when you know it's just building up towards a shot and save animation you will have already seen 10,000 times. The rest of the gameplay isn't even that good anyway, though it has some decent moments.

Yeah, I completely agree. At least for the last two iterations, where I personally felt the problem the most.

Shooting is one of the first things I truly, truly hope they'll completely revamp, especially in relationship with the keepers. If the fundamental feels indeed quite dull in itself, keepers is where I find most of the boredom comes.. TTB said time ago in his final considerations on 2020 that keepers reach the corners of the goal far too easily and he can't be more right. They feel so robotic and samey, bot in behaviour and in animations.. the surprise element when I shoot it's just so minimal I can't feel any reward in scoring.

They need to find a different kind of balance and most of all they should start fucking characterize them in a decent manner. There are a loads of nuances between keepers styles and efficiency, I don't pretend to see them all, but to have at least more than just keepers tied to the line/keepers capable of coming out the goal should be reasonable enough to ask.

 

[rojofa]

T


I think any real innovation now is going to be more physics and animation based then it is AI..Great AI has been around for generations it’s always been the geometry and animation part of game design that has restricted that..We learnt years ago that it’s very easy to program AI that can easily think faster and outwit even the sharpest human.Thats mathematics.Its been more a case of dumbing it down to appear more human or get it to work within the limited playing field or environment your creating.


Going as far back as ISS you had AI that felt near human and when it came to teammate AI,I never remember a lack of desire,in-ability to read danger or teammates totally lacking any sense of what’s happening around them.Games felt dynamic,alive and great play,holding the ball meant the rub or momentum went in your favour..When confidence was low you felt that nervesness in touch and had to claw and fight to get the rub of the green..This stuff wasn’t placebo,mind trickery..It was little touches to the AI that gave those games personality and a soul.

AI in football games has never been very complex or demanding, and is still pretty much using the same methods as PS1 games. Some older games may have been tuned in a way that makes it more challenging or varied, but it's not really "intelligence" as much as well configured variables that allow a finite state machine to return a convincing action from as many situations as possible. Offline gaming is not as much of a priority these days so they don't even take the time to tune the variables so the AI's actions make sense to their ability to do many things effectively or convincingly (e.g. last year when the AI wouldn't shoot when through on goal, keepers not coming out, low cross spam etc.). We're even getting to the point where some people want less AI in the game, so braindead defenders not covering danger areas or attackers not exploiting space is a feature, not a bug, because... Screw AI, micromanage it yourself, move your own players off the ball in attack and defence because that's an extra e-sports pro gamer skill gap.

Both technically and in terms of the intention of both companies we are still miles away from playing against an AI in a football game that actually seems understand the whole game and responds similarly to a human with the same limitations like reaction times, or simulating the decision making process for positioning/actions of individual players etc.

There is a lot of research into developing intelligent AI for games, usually RTS/MOBA games like Dota/Starcraft, but EA/Konami have no reason to bother pursuing that kind of thing thanks to online/microtransactions.

 

[Emroth]

Some older games may have been tuned in a way that makes it more challenging or varied, but it's not really "intelligence" as much as well configured variables that allow a finite state machine to return a convincing action from as many situations as possible.

Well, if you look at the definition, or perception of intelligence, a lot of points relate to what we used to have in football games

"the capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, critical thinking, and problem-solving."

Now we dont have any of that. Now its all been dumbed down to a bare minimum. "Cant pass to A, pass to B" type of "thinking".

I have a question to all those who still enjoy Pes20. I dont need yall to reply here, but just think about it and be honest.

When was the last time when you thought - "Oh, shit - I didnt see that coming!"

When was the last time when AI player would stop and assess the situation?
Ok, Human backed away to cover passing lane to my team mate and left me some space. Instead of pass - ill just gonna run and dribble..

I honestly cant remember a single time where AI in modern games would surprise me in any way.

And, like you said, the sad part is that EA had money, resources and even will to develop proper AI, but player base doesnt want it.
So we are dealing with two different reasons for Why do we have dumb AI, but both come down to microtransactions and money.
Konami chose to focus online and dumb down AI, EA was kinda forced to do it by money making people.

 

[elloco]

For me the main problem are the keepers, they are so predictable and boring.


The game is pretty nice in build up until the box, shooting has no variety and is boring but for me the thrill in pro evo was always that you don't know what happened and nice crazy moment's.

The animation, the reaction, the positioning, are totally wrong and boring, I can shoot from nearly any position outside or inside the box and I know what will happen, it's hard to watch when you hit a streamer from 12meters the keeper had the reaction to catch the Ball. They nearly don't stand and watch back... That kills all the fun of the series in older days...

If they get with 2021 the keepers in the right direction I will buy it.

 

[rojofa]

Well, if you look at the definition, or perception of intelligence, a lot of points relate to what we used to have in football games

"the capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, critical thinking, and problem-solving."

Now we dont have any of that. Now its all been dumbed down to a bare minimum. "Cant pass to A, pass to B" type of "thinking".

I have a question to all those who still enjoy Pes20. I dont need yall to reply here, but just think about it and be honest.

When was the last time when you thought - "Oh, shit - I didnt see that coming!"

When was the last time when AI player would stop and assess the situation?
Ok, Human backed away to cover passing lane to my team mate and left me some space. Instead of pass - ill just gonna run and dribble..

I honestly cant remember a single time where AI in modern games would surprise me in any way.

And, like you said, the sad part is that EA had money, resources and even will to develop proper AI, but player base doesnt want it.
So we are dealing with two different reasons for Why do we have dumb AI, but both come down to microtransactions and money.
Konami chose to focus online and dumb down AI, EA was kinda forced to do it by money making people.

I agree that the CPU in older games was often better and seemed to show those characteristics, but it still only emulated them through a smart combination of game design and variables. Here's diagram to show a basic game "AI" logic in an adventure game;

It's an oversimplification with only a few variables, but this is basically how a football game AI works - for each situation accounted for they are given some actions/behaviours to respond with. They're not creatively solving problems so much as following the developer's instructions for the scenarios they have prepared them for. Modern sports game developers barely seem to bother preparing them for the full range of situations that can emerge in the game and/or enough variety to not see the same attempted solution every time.

Actual AI that can problem solve and learn to play games autonomously is progressing rapidly, but could be another generation away yet in video games. This is one interesting example of the creative tactics an AI learned to attack and defend in a simple hide and seek game;

 

[StrangelyEnough]

AI in football games has never been very complex or demanding, and is still pretty much using the same methods as PS1 games. Some older games may have been tuned in a way that makes it more challenging or varied, but it's not really "intelligence" as much as well configured variables that allow a finite state machine to return a convincing action from as many situations as possible. Offline gaming is not as much of a priority these days so they don't even take the time to tune the variables so the AI's actions make sense to their ability to do many things effectively or convincingly (e.g. last year when the AI wouldn't shoot when through on goal, keepers not coming out, low cross spam etc.). We're even getting to the point where some people want less AI in the game, so braindead defenders not covering danger areas or attackers not exploiting space is a feature, not a bug, because... Screw AI, micromanage it yourself, move your own players off the ball in attack and defence because that's an extra e-sports pro gamer skill gap.

Both technically and in terms of the intention of both companies we are still miles away from playing against an AI in a football game that actually seems understand the whole game and responds similarly to a human with the same limitations like reaction times, or simulating the decision making process for positioning/actions of individual players etc.

There is a lot of research into developing intelligent AI for games, usually RTS/MOBA games like Dota/Starcraft, but EA/Konami have no reason to bother pursuing that kind of thing thanks to online/microtransactions.

Your not wrong and make some very valid points..But don’t forget you have to have the physics and animation to facilitate the AI..

This is why football games need to shift more towards outcomes based on ball physics that are generated in real time..Animation also needs to be completely uncanned..

Where I slightly differ is I actually like more micro management and less of the defending and player positioning done for me..Imo it adds and doesn’t detract..The less hand holding the better.Imo it’s more to think about and do and it actually takes thought and understanding of defending in different phases of play..I can’t understand how that’s perceived as weakening and is more a example of trying to evolve something into something more intelligent and skill based.

 

[Emroth]

I love it! And the happy faces on them when they discover some new move!

Unfortunately, what are the chances that developers even attempt to create something along these lines, if they cant even provide enough variables to make the 2020 game fun?

We will most likely get super awesome boots and faces, along with same type of dum-dums we are dealing with now..

 

[Tom]

Hi all....

DigitalByDesign here..Had to re-register as I was unable to access my original gmail account and reset the password..(sorry mods in advance)..

Couldn’t resist the banter and all things PES/FIFA..Naturally I’ve been reading and following all threads throughout the year.

I never personally updated pes20 from version 1 and will be purchasing a disc copy of pes21..Cautiously optimistic there may be a few tweaks and a little visual enhancement.I don’t believe pes21 will be based on the last data pack of pes20.

Certainly of the believe the waters got muddied last year with to much tweaking.

Just hit me up if you'd like that old account of yours back.

 

[rojofa]

Your not wrong and make some very valid points..But don’t forget you have to have the physics and animation to facilitate the AI..

This is why football games need to shift more towards outcomes based on ball physics that are generated in real time..Animation also needs to be completely uncanned..

I agree 100% and posted at length about this kind of thing a few weeks ago, and it probably bores people to death talking about academic research into animation technology and AI . Essentially, I think AI and physics combined are the solution to create completely uncanned and physics based animation for sports games - using ragdoll physics where AI learns which joints/muscles to actuate to produce the motions to physically manipulate their movement and the ball, with the ball simply being a physics object not bound to any animation or trajectory. I really think this technology is within reach for the PS5/XBSX generation.

Here's some links for a couple of the most promising technologies I've seen that could achieve this from DeepMotion/Ubisoft with a quick summary and if you want to read more you can .


https://blog.deepmotion.com/2018/08/07/deepdribble-simulating-basketball-with-ai/
https://www.wired.com/story/artificial-intelligence-basketball-dribbling/

“The difficulty in current videogames in creating realistic basketball movement is there's no physics in their simulation,” says DeepMotion chief scientist Libin Liu, who helped develop the system. “The current state-of-the-art technique is we record a lot of motions, or possibly ask an animator to fix ball trajectory, and then this ball trajectory and movement will be coupled.”

This sometimes imperfect marriage leads to quirks like the basketball sticking in an avatar's hands, or not quite lining up with a player’s grasp. This avatar, on the other hand, is more grounded in the physical laws of the universe. “Because we are using a physics simulation to generate motions, all the motions are automatic,” says Liu. “That means the ball can't stick on the characters hand because there's no glue on his hand.”

https://montreal.ubisoft.com/en/drecon-data-driven-responsive-control-of-physics-based-characters/

We also kept the unique constraints of games in mind, ensuring our method has a very low runtime cost in order to make it viable to fit the performance budgets of real games on today’s hardware. DReCon is unique in that it maintains a high level of responsiveness to user input while also keeping the simulated movement of the characters as natural looking as possible.