eFootball PES 2021 Discussion Thread (CONSOLES)

This feedback About the problems of dribbling CPU in pes 2020 version. We hope that the dev-team of PLAYER ID will return the PES 2013 to the PES 2022. in PES 2013 Each player played like himself. AI was very similar to reality . Hope PES community Give more feedback and talk about artificial intelligence. I made this video and I hope it reaches the development PES team.

Suggestions For PES 2022 Artificial intelligence ( Player ID CPU )

 
Enlighten must remain at Unreal

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/enlighten-real-time-global-illumination-in-unreal-engine-4

Interview about Enlighten

https://cgworld.jp/interview/201810-Enlighten.html

There are three main advantages of introducing "Enlighten" in "Wile 2019". First, the dynamic range has expanded due to the effects of indirect light, and the gradation of light and shadow has become more realistic and richer. Also, "Enlighten"'s greatest advantage is the great benefit of dynamic changes on the light side at runtime. By dynamically changing both the light source and the object, it has evolved into a more complex and information-rich screen.
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Screenshot_2020-07-15-17-03-20-647_com.google.android.youtube.jpg
 
Ximelez said:
I would be shocked if you could find a relevant professional game that has ended with absolutely 0 fouls
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Challenge accepted!:


I'd concede fouls is a tricky situation. To condense 60 minutes (on average) of real football into 10-15 (by default) of simulated football, something has to give in order to create a disproportionate amount of goals (EPL average 2.7 per game) and goalscoring chances. You could argue fouls (EPL average 20.9 per game) could be one of those things.

And then you realise PES5 got the balance right 15 fucking years ago. :BOUNCE:
 
The "funny" thing about this fouls talk is that 2020 actually introduced intentional/professional fouls but I haven't seen the AI do it once.
The AI sometimes dive trying to draw a foul, but for whatever reason Konami didn't program the AI to make intentional fouls even in one on one situations with a defender right behind you.
 
Bonano said:
The "funny" thing about this fouls talk is that 2020 actually introduced intentional/professional fouls but I haven't seen the AI do it once.
The AI sometimes dive trying to draw a foul, but for whatever reason Konami didn't program the AI to make intentional fouls even in one on one situations with a defender right behind you.
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I always have to come back to this... 2017. ;)

There are intentional fouls as well! Only difference, they are not all awarded a yellow card every time. And that’s so much better!! They hold, wrestle, stumble into each other... but it’s not always yellow. And that’s how it’s supposed to be, imo.

A lot of praised 2020 features were already in the game!

Just love my 2017!! It’s all there. Fouls, pens, AI, variety, AI diving, ... :D
 
Bonano said:
The "funny" thing about this fouls talk is that 2020 actually introduced intentional/professional fouls but I haven't seen the AI do it once.
The AI sometimes dive trying to draw a foul, but for whatever reason Konami didn't program the AI to make intentional fouls even in one on one situations with a defender right behind you.
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I've managed to capture one single intentional foul by AI in a rival match months ago:
Was even pretty contextual. Never seen another one of course lol.
 
Bonano said:
for whatever reason Konami didn't program the AI to make intentional fouls even in one on one situations with a defender right behind you.
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And the thing that grids my gears is that the CPU used to hack you down back in the day as a last-ditch effort.
I'm replaying Champions League campaigns with older PES games (ended my PES 2009 one and halfway through my PES 2010 run) and I've seen the CPU being shown three red cards (two in PES 2009 and one in PES 2010) in 15 matches or so.
I've also been shown two red cards in the meantime (both to Martin Škrtel, he's a wonderful scapegoat when it comes to intentionally getting sent off for hacking an opponent down).

It's yet another thing they removed in order to make the game more online-oriented I guess (so the CPU players would just "support" with basic things, but the game is indeed thought to be played by a human against a human).
We're still lucky, though: with FIFA 20's out-of-the-box gameplay, defenders don't even track their man. You need to continuously switch back and forth between defenders to adjust their position. While this may be a "wise" choice for online (too many players would select a midfielder and let the CPU-controlled defenders do the human player's job when it was feasible), it's almost killing the offline experience.
 
Let's not beat around the bush. The situation in both games is pretty bad when it comes to fouls.

Can you imagine an e-sports final been decided by an AI controlled player giving away a penalty? There will be riots. That's why there are few fouls and defenders are little more than glorified training cones in modern football games.
 
Just out of curiosity I decided to re-download the pes2020 demo and low and behold he ai shows much more player Individuality. It boils my blood that year after year the ai in the demo is superior when it comes to player Id compared to the full game. PES2021 will undoubtedly have the same lacklustre ai system, which is why I won’t be bothering with it this year.
 
manmachine said:
Let's not beat around the bush. The situation in both games is pretty bad when it comes to fouls.

Can you imagine an e-sports final been decided by an AI controlled player giving away a penalty? There will be riots. That's why there are few fouls and defenders are little more than glorified training cones in modern football games.
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Oh I agree. But again, it's just that they don't want to cater to the offline crowd, not that they can't.

Older PES games had options that would allow you to choose...
  • Whether the CPU-controlled players of your team would auto-clear the ball or not, and...
  • If they could auto-tackle opponents in case of danger (heck, you could also choose between light and harsh tackles!).
If you allowed them to auto-tackle opponents, you knew you'd likely concede the silly penalty from time to time... It was your choice.
I usually keep those options set to "off", but it's not an excuse for my defenders to stop tracking their opponents (in those old games, they still properly track their men even if they're not allowed to hack opponents down unless it's me controlling them).

Is it too difficult to implement? I don't think so... It's just that they decided to go the "eSports/MyClub/FUT/online PvP" route and they're not willing to go back.
 
They removed all these elements of "CPU interference" in online PvP such as auto tackling/clearing and even basic positioning/tracking and yet you probably still have more complaints than ever about online "scripting" affecting the outcome of matches in both games.

Having the AI teammates actually participate doesn't mean that they do all the work for you - you still choose which formation and tactics to play, which team/player instructions to use, which players play in which positions and how all of that matches up with the opposition's setup. That would have it's own skill gap if the tactical options and player individuality were deep enough.

Spending a few minutes in tactical menus probably isn't what they want their "e-sports" events to look like though (top 0.001% playing as a full time job) so they ruin the game for everyone.

Would less people even buy football games or pay for microtransactions if they became more realistic? Everyone I know in real life who plays FIFA online seems to actively hate the gameplay/scripting anyway but they play it for all of the off-pitch FUT stuff like pack opening/squad building and just play it because their mates do and it's popular. None of that would change if AI defenders were made to actually take part in the match.
 
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manmachine said:
Let's not beat around the bush. The situation in both games is pretty bad when it comes to fouls.

Can you imagine an e-sports final been decided by an AI controlled player giving away a penalty? There will be riots. That's why there are few fouls and defenders are little more than glorified training cones in modern football games.
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This.

It’s also equally to not disrupt the “flow” and “action” of the esports games / finals.

The instant gratification and short attention span of the more “modern” and esports generation means that stopping the game every minute for a foul would put a lot of players off and that’s Konami’s target audience... The ones that want to ignore tactics, play to the games exploits and spam the pressure button. That’s their lifeblood these days. Not guys like most of us here.

For example, my friend who’s a modern day FIFA player came over and we played PES 5 and within the first 15 game minutes he must have given away 3 body contact fouls. His response was “That’s not a free kick”... “This game stops too much”... “There’s too many fouls”...

Completely ignorant of the fact that he didn’t take his thumb off of “X” when defending so his selected player was always just charging full pelt into the back Or side of my player without getting the ball. A foul that would be called 99% of the time in a professional game.
 
Madmac79 said:
I've managed to capture one single intentional foul by AI in a rival match months ago:
Was even pretty contextual. Never seen another one of course lol.
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Hmm I'm not really sure this is the kind of intentional foul they've introduced this year. If I do it myself by double tapping x with a player right behind the opponent, my player will pull his shirt, not tackle or push the other guy.

I've had it happen once in the demo, but never in the full game:


@PRO_TOO
I don't remember any shirt pulling in 2017 but there might have been last man tackles and such. Maybe I should revisit 2017 one day, but the thing is, I didn't really like that game. As I remember it, I was constantly switching between 0 and -1 speed never finding a speed that felt right. Besides that the dribbling was terrible IMO, and the passing and shooting (unless on manual) was a far cry from 2020.

@*aLe
It's an interesting perspective that it's removed to cater to online gamers, but the intentional fouls I'm talking about is only triggered on my team if I actively do it, and as showed with the demo clip the opposition AI was able to do it, but it's just completely absent from the final game.
 
Ximelez said:
I would be shocked if you could find a relevant professional game that has ended with absolutely 0 fouls
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Flipper the Priest said:
Challenge accepted!:


I'd concede fouls is a tricky situation. To condense 60 minutes (on average) of real football into 10-15 (by default) of simulated football, something has to give in order to create a disproportionate amount of goals (EPL average 2.7 per game) and goalscoring chances. You could argue fouls (EPL average 20.9 per game) could be one of those things.

And then you realise PES5 got the balance right 15 fucking years ago. :BOUNCE:
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Well this is from last year

https://www.90min.com/posts/6352094...-league-foul-record-in-0-0-draw-with-brighton
 
Well, it's an elbow to the back. Even by looking the animation of Pandev's fall it looked pretty like the intentional dynamic to me, but who knows ^^
 
Paynekiller said:
Just out of curiosity I decided to re-download the pes2020 demo
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Where from mate, and which platform? I was looking for it on PS4 a while back and couldn't find it in the PS store any more.

The PC demo had also been replaced by the free "lite" version, which seems to get all the gameplay updates unfortunately.
 
normazimuth said:
Where from mate, and which platform? I was looking for it on PS4 a while back and couldn't find it in the PS store any more.

The PC demo had also been replaced by the free "lite" version, which seems to get all the gameplay updates unfortunately.
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Thankfully it’s still in my Xbox library so I was able to re-download it but as for other formats like PS4 and PC looks like you’re out of luck.
 
Do you know where I thought we'd be with football games now? Seriously, after 25 years of PES (and FIFA for that matter)?

I was watching Match of the Day 2 the other day - the final one of the season. Because it's the last one, you get the "end credits". Here's a classic example:



Just imagine at the end of each Master League season, you get one of these - featuring highlights from all your games. Month by month, you see your best goals and your opponent's best goals, with the actual commentary that was used at the time - even mentioning your best stats (e.g. "1,104 minutes without conceding"). You see your manager avatar's reactions, the crowd's reactions, the managers who have been sacked, or retired - and their replacements. All set to music that reflects whether you've hit your targets or not (some sad acoustic guitar song if you're relegated etc.)...

If I've dedicated hours of my life to my Master League save, I'd love a look back at my season when it had finished. The penalty that got us through to the quarter-final of the FA Cup. The fingertip save that knocked us out of the semi. My star striker's final goal for the club, before he signed for Man United...

25 years is a fucking long time. Think about who you were 25 years ago and everything that's happened in that time - think of what you could have accomplished if you were given one job to do. The tech has moved on, and game development has moved on. Look at what 2K do with the NBA games etc...

So I was thinking that, by now, PES gameplay would be so top-tier, so realistic, so absolutely awesome, that we'd have totally frivilous shit like the above to enjoy, to add some extra emotion. I even had fantasies that AI speech tech would be able to drop your manager's name into the commentary.

I did not imagine for one second some of us would be playing the games from a decade or two ago, to get - in some areas - a better simulation (e.g. AI players actually using their attributes to play like their real-life counterparts instead of every player being identical under the AI's control).

Instead of having all the licenses, or hundreds of stadiums, or innovative controls, or a deep management mode with various staff roles, youth squads with their own league performance to worry about etc... This is where we are in 2020:



Look at the goals scored in PES6. Dribbling, long-range screamers... Whole pieces of football now pretty much absent.



I mean. What happened?

So, sure - happy 25th birthday, PES. You gave me some of my happiest memories, all those years ago. But not many since. Please get your shit together for the real football fans, and not just the myClub Pocket Money Club, for 2022.
 
Chris Davies said:
Do you know where I thought we'd be with football games now? Seriously, after 25 years of PES (and FIFA for that matter)?

Just imagine at the end of each Master League season, you get one of these - featuring highlights from all your games. Month by month, you see your best goals and your opponent's best goals, with the actual commentary that was used at the time - even mentioning your best stats (e.g. "1,104 minutes without conceding"). You see your manager avatar's reactions, the crowd's reactions, the managers who have been sacked, or retired - and their replacements. All set to music that reflects whether you've hit your targets or not (some sad acoustic guitar song if you're relegated etc.)...

If I've dedicated hours of my life to my Master League save, I'd love a look back at my season when it had finished. The penalty that got us through to the quarter-final of the FA Cup. The fingertip save that knocked us out of the semi. My star striker's final goal for the club, before he signed for Man United...

25 years is a fucking long time. Think about who you were 25 years ago and everything that's happened in that time - think of what you could have accomplished if you were given one job to do. The tech has moved on, and game development has moved on. Look at what 2K do with the NBA games etc...

So I was thinking that, by now, PES gameplay would be so top-tier, so realistic, so absolutely awesome, that we'd have totally frivilous shit like the above to enjoy, to add some extra emotion. I even had fantasies that AI speech tech would be able to drop your manager's name into the commentary.

I did not imagine for one second some of us would be playing the games from a decade or two ago, to get - in some areas - a better simulation (e.g. AI players actually using their attributes to play like their real-life counterparts instead of every player being identical under the AI's control).

Instead of having all the licenses, or hundreds of stadiums, or innovative controls, or a deep management mode with various staff roles, youth squads with their own league performance to worry about etc... This is where we are in 2020:



Look at the goals scored in PES6. Dribbling, long-range screamers... Whole pieces of football now pretty much absent.



I mean. What happened?

So, sure - happy 25th birthday, PES. You gave me some of my happiest memories, all those years ago. But not many since. Please get your shit together for the real football fans, and not just the myClub Pocket Money Club, for 2022.
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Some tasty ideas - the sort of things that would make you want to get you totally immersed in the game. It's a reminder to me of how much I've gradually, year on year, given up on this game with expectations each year being for next to zero development of off-pitch features and just hoping that they fix the glaring on-field issues with even the most basic elements of football.

I recall back in the PES 1-6 era relishing the idea of having features such as the ability to create you own custom league structures, with multiple divisions, promotion/relegation from non-league to premier league (ie. simply replicating real world structures). But 20 years on from that, I don't even bother thinking about such things anymore as I know each year the best we'll get is perhaps a 2nd division for a handful of leagues (and even then, no certainty that they'll still be included the following year) and the same tired old Master League.

And the sophistication of the AI (ie. lack of) and other glaring gameplay issues are such that I can't be bothered playing a league season, let alone waste time trying to get immersed in multiple season of the Master League, when player stats mean so little that there's no point looking for players to sign because the game will just over-ride their stats when it needs to because all that really matters is sitting it out until the momentum created by team spirit gets high enough.
 
Chris Davies said:
I mean. What happened?
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I saw it with other sports games in the past. I'd say football (just to clarify, not American football) is the only sport I'm truly passionate about, but I love sports in general (even if my interest in a specific sport outside of football ebbs and flows). Anyway, I remember the half-time show in say, NFL 2k5. 16-years ago! It's not perfect, but what the hell have developers been doing since then? This of course was the last NFL 2K ever because EA bought up the rights shortly after.

They also had a weekly recap with some of the games having actual highlights. Not to bring up FIFA in the PES thread, but FIFA still doesn't track statistics of players outside of the league you're participating in. In 2020.


Yet here we are.
 
Scottc17 said:
happy birthday PES! even though there is alot of problems with the game, we need to praise konami for making PES which is miles better than the other game/
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Both games are as bad as each other in their own unique ways, so claiming one is "miles betterthan the other" is just plain silly.
 
Redhat said:
I saw it with other sports games in the past. I'd say football (just to clarify, not American football) is the only sport I'm truly passionate about, but I love sports in general (even if my interest in a specific sport outside of football ebbs and flows). Anyway, I remember the half-time show in say, NFL 2k5. 16-years ago! It's not perfect, but what the hell have developers been doing since then? This of course was the last NFL 2K ever because EA bought up the rights shortly after.

They also had a weekly recap with some of the games having actual highlights. Not to bring up FIFA in the PES thread, but FIFA still doesn't track statistics of players outside of the league you're participating in. In 2020.


Yet here we are.
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A Ps2 game.

And all we have today are a bunch of bland of pre rendered cutscenes.

Un-fucking believable.

But of course it must be nostalgic rose tinted glasses, right :BOP:?
 
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