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eFootball PES 2020 Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox One)

Chris Davies said:
Given how little focus goes into the single-player-control side of things, I do wonder if perhaps TS might be broken in that instance.
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Wouldn't surprise me if that's an aspect that has been completely overlooked; how TS might impact AI behavior. Because I don't before TS is present in BAL.

Chris Davies said:
When it's the AI making all the passes, would TS even come into it?
Click to expand...

I'd say it does. My team does play better when it's in the 90s than when it was in the 70s. But I'm genuinely curious about what exactly it does in match. Just another one of those ambiguous mystery features I guess.
 
Two not unrelated questions:

a) does anyone actually enjoy playing Super Star?

b) does anyone know how not be endlessly frustrated on Super Star?

I seem to be at the right level for Super Star with assisted controls. I win more than lose. I don’t concede many. The results are broadly in line.

But I just find the whole thing so frustrating. It’s just endless cheating by the CPU that fouls with impunity and then rubs it in by winning free kicks for nothing.

My flowing attacks are ruined by a completely unnecessary misplaced pass in completely the wrong direction.

The game will randomly slow down to delay and frustrate my attacks for no reason.

Nothing ever feels “complete”. A nice move that finishes with a nice finish. There’s constant interruptions and frustrations in each phase of play as it feels like I’m wrestling for control of the game.

The problem with World Class is that it feels like everything I do comes off. The problem with Super Star is it feels like nothing I do comes off, and I just sort of muddle through to a win or have a disappointing draw or defeat.

There’s no joy. Wins and defeats both feel undeserved.

Anyone else fee this?
 
MyNoFoot said:
Anyone else fee this?
Click to expand...
Same reason i abandoned Superstar despite, i was winning 7/10 matches. Every game i won was a 1-0, with the same moves. LB plays the 1-2 with the DMF, LB, plays the 1-2 with the AMF, LB plays the 1-2 with the LWF, LB turns a 360 cycle, LB passes through to the LWF, LWF crosses or does a cut back pass, CF shoots! IF goal then time waste tiki-taka with :x: . If not goal, then rinse and repeat!
Any other try to play something different will be wasted by CPU by being delayed for no reason.
Every match was this same sequence. On Top Player, AI is far more passive and less cynical, but at least it is played much more pretty and variable football inside the pitch.
 
Since switching to auto switch player superstar is much more even , won 2 in 2 on group stages. Defensively it feels better as players are marked properly and attacking it's far more switched on reacting to loose balls
 
Does anyone got hope for the future after the launch fiasco of PES2020? We will never get a mildly difficulty, realistic, competitive gameplay ever. Whenever its a bit slower, its a bit difficult to work your way to the goal, its harder to tackle or to score...the loudest people will bombard Konami until the gameplay is broken to an arcade fest yet again.

Just hope we will get a playable, semi-sim V1.0 without bugs which we can preserve for the rest of the year.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
Does anyone got hope for the future after the launch fiasco of PES2020? We will never get a mildly difficulty, realistic, competitive gameplay ever. Whenever its a bit slower, its a bit difficult to work your way to the goal, its harder to tackle or to score...the loudest people will bombard Konami until the gameplay is broken to an arcade fest yet again.

Just hope we will get a playable, semi-sim V1.0 without bugs which we can preserve for the rest of the year.
Click to expand...
For as long as the eSports and FUT / myClub guys shout the loudest, the game will be geared towards "creating a skill gap" where AI players behave like cardboard cutouts, because they're not under your control, and having the opponent's £80m defender position himself properly without you having to do it for him is "so unfair", "cheating" etc... So I think we're doomed on all fronts, to be honest.

Maybe banning microtransactions will help, maybe then gameplay has to be good to sell more copies. But "good" to us is "bad" to that online market, and there are more of them than us.

Maybe splitting the game into an offline and online package could help. But Konami don't even have a big enough dev team to make one game - hence why they're effectively taking a year off this year (which is a good thing - as long as their focus isn't just "how do we keep selling to FIFA's core audience").
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
Does anyone got hope for the future after the launch fiasco of PES2020? We will never get a mildly difficulty, realistic, competitive gameplay ever. Whenever its a bit slower, its a bit difficult to work your way to the goal, its harder to tackle or to score...the loudest people will bombard Konami until the gameplay is broken to an arcade fest yet again.

Just hope we will get a playable, semi-sim V1.0 without bugs which we can preserve for the rest of the year.
Click to expand...
I prefer a slower game of football overall but I found 2020 much snappier and better to play on +1.
2017 I do play on -1. Both are nearly the same, speed wise, when set up like this.

Edit: -2 in 2017 is to slow for my liking.
the AI making the biggest difference for both titles, imo!
 
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Chris Davies said:
Maybe splitting the game into an offline and online package could help.
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I think this is really the only way we’ll get what we want...or at least it’ll start moving in the right direction. Until they acknowledge that what we want is different to online in terms of gameplay experience we’re fighting a losing battle. I know it’s controversial to some, but sliders would at least give us the opportunity to tweak aspects of the gameplay even marginally in our favour. Those of us playing 10 min+ halves can’t possibly have a ‘realistic’ experience if the AI is essentially designed for a much, much shorter game.
 
Chris Davies said:
For as long as the eSports and FUT / myClub guys shout the loudest, the game will be geared towards "creating a skill gap" where AI players behave like cardboard cutouts, because they're not under your control, and having the opponent's £80m defender position himself properly without you having to do it for him is "so unfair", "cheating" etc... So I think we're doomed on all fronts, to be honest.

Maybe banning microtransactions will help, maybe then gameplay has to be good to sell more copies. But "good" to us is "bad" to that online market, and there are more of them than us.

Maybe splitting the game into an offline and online package could help. But Konami don't even have a big enough dev team to make one game - hence why they're effectively taking a year off this year (which is a good thing - as long as their focus isn't just "how do we keep selling to FIFA's core audience").
Click to expand...

Never understood this skill gap thing in football games meanwhile people are obsessed too in the same game mode getting high rated player cards. The two idea just clashses.
At efootball official competitions just play Barca v Barca, same line up, no subs, same form arrows.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
Never understood this skill gap thing in football games meanwhile people are obsessed too in the same game mode getting high rated player cards. The two idea just clashses.
At efootball official competitions just play Barca v Barca, same line up, no subs, same form arrows.
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I think in esports competitions, all players are also leveled around same overall, around 85, while only pace really differs. At least that's what the description says.
Which is the crappiest fansrevice of history, trying to keep pleased two categories of video game players.
 
Chris Davies said:
For as long as the eSports and FUT / myClub guys shout the loudest, the game will be geared towards "creating a skill gap" where AI players behave like cardboard cutouts, because they're not under your control, and having the opponent's £80m defender position himself properly without you having to do it for him is "so unfair", "cheating" etc... So I think we're doomed on all fronts, to be honest.

Maybe banning microtransactions will help, maybe then gameplay has to be good to sell more copies. But "good" to us is "bad" to that online market, and there are more of them than us.

Maybe splitting the game into an offline and online package could help. But Konami don't even have a big enough dev team to make one game - hence why they're effectively taking a year off this year (which is a good thing - as long as their focus isn't just "how do we keep selling to FIFA's core audience").
Click to expand...

I can't disagree tbf. Especially on the size of the dev team.

gabe.paul.logan said:
Never understood this skill gap thing in football games meanwhile people are obsessed too in the same game mode getting high rated player cards. The two idea just clashses.
At efootball official competitions just play Barca v Barca, same line up, no subs, same form arrows.
Click to expand...


If you're playing another human, you want to be able to differentiate your ability from theirs and win with said difference.

In fact theoretically speaking playing the same team as yours is the best way to see who the better player is given there are fewer variables. Can't complain if you lost to Barça if you were also using Barça etc.

Problem is when you start tailoring to that need and start making the AI behave the same, you kill the offline experience.

I get why people want a skill gap in multiplayer. You want to be rewarded for being a better player. Unfortunately there aren't enough hours in the day to tailor the AI to work ideally in all modes.
 
MyNoFoot said:
Anyone else fee this?
Click to expand...

Superstar is very frustrating to me, even if i win 7/10 of the matches as well.
It is not satisfactory at all, i end up playing the same way every match and most of the goals i score are the same: receive the ball with CF sidestep and quick shoot, or a cross or a FK. Rarely i score from a corner or a counter, and i have scored more penalties (1) than chipped goals this season in ML.

Top Player, on the other hand, is very easy. Rarely you get the AI in demon mode, other than that, you can easily win 4-0 almost every match.
I just can't find the sweet spot with this game.

Lucky that TLOU2 is available this weekend, i'll be off PES for at least a cople of weeks.
 
slamsoze said:
I think in esports competitions, all players are also leveled around same overall, around 85, while only pace really differs. At least that's what the description says.
Which is the crappiest fansrevice of history, trying to keep pleased two categories of video game players.
Click to expand...

I was going add to my other comment about this; I think this is the weakest form of creating a competitive balance but Konami have put themselves in this position by creating a game that is remarkably hard to balance given the way attributes and the tactical system(s).

Styles make matchups; competitive should be balanced so people can play different styles and still be able to compete of they're good enough. I don't think that's possible in PES in its current form.
 
I tried the latest data patch a few times and I can't get into. Back to my PS2 Winning Eleven glory days I guess. In my ML I beat City 7-1 on Top Player and lost to Bristol City in the FA Cup 3-2. Bristol City played like Man City and Man City played like a team desperate to score a 90th minute equalizer the entire match which allowed me to crush them the counter. I tried superstar but it just feels like a chore and more frustrating than enjoyable even though the added difficulty was welcomed.

It's a shame because there are things to like offline at least: ball physics, physicality/auto shield (when it's not glitching), player ID ( bought Haaland in my ML and if you watch him play and play with him in PES it felt really good like PS2 days individuality good), play styles, player skills but after that the A.I. and tactical system just ruin the entire experience. The only thing that would make the PES 2021 season update even remotely worth it is if the dev team spent the entire time up until launch re-writing A.I. code and changing the tactical system. Bar that, no additions like new animations, teams, leagues, modes etc. will make me want to play this game again.

As someone who loves national team competitions I never even completed the Euro mode I just wasn't interested in playing it anymore :(
 
aderow said:
Styles make matchups; competitive should be balanced so people can play different styles and still be able to compete of they're good enough. I don't think that's possible in PES in its current form.
Click to expand...
Amen.

I'm going to tell a long (possibly boring) story now, that relates to this - and to @gabe.paul.logan's question, "will PES ever be good again".

I've told this story before, but ten years ago I was lucky enough to be invited out to Vancouver to meet the FIFA team. We'd just arrived at their complex and were being given a tour of the place, when the producer of their Euro and World Cup games, Simon Humber, emerged from nowhere looking for "the guy from Evo-Web". (David Rutter was the main FIFA producer at the time, another good guy. Seabass was still working on PES.)

(Important note - a year or two before this point, Simon joined Evo-Web to do a bit of undercover research. He wanted to gather feedback, but specifically feedback from PES players, because he was trying to build a game that was more realistic and that gave PES fans a reason to try FIFA. Can you imagine a gameplay producer of a PES or a FIFA ever doing that again, given what we experience trying to get "sim" feedback through to the devs nowadays? His username was lemondoctor, check it out for a blast from the past.)

He came over to me, shook my hand and we got chatting. But he asked me, "if I walk away now and I was to start making your perfect football game, what would it be like" - and I said "a game where the guy who wins the match is the guy with the better knowledge of football and the players on the pitch, not the guy who knows the game's exploits, or even has the better reflexes - because sometimes you should need to play a long-ball game to win, and sometimes you should need to play a possession game to win".

Honestly, his face lit up, and he said "that's exactly what I'm trying to do" - and I was really excited. I still think the 2010 World Cup game he produced is one of the best EA football games ever made, and it's a pretty deep game in terms of its gameplay for the time.

David Rutter was integral in getting EA to invest money into the gameplay and (as far as the board was concerned) take a huge risk by developing the "Ignite" engine and freeing the ball from the players for the first time ("but what if the long-term fans hate it")... and they made the best FIFAs ever as a result. Simon sadly passed away in 2015 - and David was given a higher-level job around the same time. Since then (and the move to Frostbite)... Well. Sales are great. Critical reception, not so much.

If anything, I'd say PES and FIFA are now more "play one way to win, play any other way and you'll lose" than ever - and I don't feel like guys like Seabass, Simon and David are ever going to have the freedom to tear things up again and make a game that football lovers want.

BUT.

Konami have decided they need to take a year off from "full" PES development, to make something that they hope will be mindblowing. This is an absolute first. The producer (who according to the PES 2020 credits is Manorito Hosada - who was the Marketing Manager for PES 2014 incidentally, what a strange career progression!) has managed to convince the company to take a huge risk, not unlike Rutter did (even though Konami don't depend on PES for cash like EA depends on FIFA - which, incidentally, may never really change as a result).

If there's a chance of football games getting good again, PES 2022 will be the moment, I think.
If it isn't - then I don't think it'll ever happen.
 
Chris Davies said:
Amen.

I'm going to tell a long (possibly boring) story now, that relates to this - and to @gabe.paul.logan's question, "will PES ever be good again".

I've told this story before, but ten years ago I was lucky enough to be invited out to Vancouver to meet the FIFA team. We'd just arrived at their complex and were being given a tour of the place, when the producer of their Euro and World Cup games, Simon Humber, emerged from nowhere looking for "the guy from Evo-Web". (David Rutter was the main FIFA producer at the time, another good guy. Seabass was still working on PES.)

(Important note - a year or two before this point, Simon joined Evo-Web to do a bit of undercover research. He wanted to gather feedback, but specifically feedback from PES players, because he was trying to build a game that was more realistic and that gave PES fans a reason to try FIFA. Can you imagine a gameplay producer of a PES or a FIFA ever doing that again, given what we experience trying to get "sim" feedback through to the devs nowadays? His username was lemondoctor, check it out for a blast from the past.)

He came over to me, shook my hand and we got chatting. But he asked me, "if I walk away now and I was to start making your perfect football game, what would it be like" - and I said "a game where the guy who wins the match is the guy with the better knowledge of football and the players on the pitch, not the guy who knows the game's exploits, or even has the better reflexes - because sometimes you should need to play a long-ball game to win, and sometimes you should need to play a possession game to win".

Honestly, his face lit up, and he said "that's exactly what I'm trying to do" - and I was really excited. I still think the 2010 World Cup game he produced is one of the best EA football games ever made, and it's a pretty deep game in terms of its gameplay for the time.

David Rutter was integral in getting EA to invest money into the gameplay and (as far as the board was concerned) take a huge risk by developing the "Ignite" engine and freeing the ball from the players for the first time ("but what if the long-term fans hate it")... and they made the best FIFAs ever as a result. Simon sadly passed away in 2015 - and David was given a higher-level job around the same time. Since then (and the move to Frostbite)... Well. Sales are great. Critical reception, not so much.

If anything, I'd say PES and FIFA are now more "play one way to win, play any other way and you'll lose" than ever - and I don't feel like guys like Seabass, Simon and David are ever going to have the freedom to tear things up again and make a game that football lovers want.

BUT.

Konami have decided they need to take a year off from "full" PES development, to make something that they hope will be mindblowing. This is an absolute first. The producer (who according to the PES 2020 credits is Manorito Hosada - who was the Marketing Manager for PES 2014 incidentally, what a strange career progression!) has managed to convince the company to take a huge risk, not unlike Rutter did (even though Konami don't depend on PES for cash like EA depends on FIFA - which, incidentally, may never really change as a result).

If there's a chance of football games getting good again, PES 2022 will be the moment, I think.
If it isn't - then I don't think it'll ever happen.
Click to expand...
I heard that story before and it is still interesting to reread and still touching.
Going through Simon’s comments from back then leaves a weird feeling in my stomach.
I remember reading a lot of articles on the web after you first time told that story.
Thanks for sharing again!!
 
Chris Davies said:
Amen.

I'm going to tell a long (possibly boring) story now, that relates to this - and to @gabe.paul.logan's question, "will PES ever be good again".

I've told this story before, but ten years ago I was lucky enough to be invited out to Vancouver to meet the FIFA team. We'd just arrived at their complex and were being given a tour of the place, when the producer of their Euro and World Cup games, Simon Humber, emerged from nowhere looking for "the guy from Evo-Web". (David Rutter was the main FIFA producer at the time, another good guy. Seabass was still working on PES.)

(Important note - a year or two before this point, Simon joined Evo-Web to do a bit of undercover research. He wanted to gather feedback, but specifically feedback from PES players, because he was trying to build a game that was more realistic and that gave PES fans a reason to try FIFA. Can you imagine a gameplay producer of a PES or a FIFA ever doing that again, given what we experience trying to get "sim" feedback through to the devs nowadays? His username was lemondoctor, check it out for a blast from the past.)

He came over to me, shook my hand and we got chatting. But he asked me, "if I walk away now and I was to start making your perfect football game, what would it be like" - and I said "a game where the guy who wins the match is the guy with the better knowledge of football and the players on the pitch, not the guy who knows the game's exploits, or even has the better reflexes - because sometimes you should need to play a long-ball game to win, and sometimes you should need to play a possession game to win".

Honestly, his face lit up, and he said "that's exactly what I'm trying to do" - and I was really excited. I still think the 2010 World Cup game he produced is one of the best EA football games ever made, and it's a pretty deep game in terms of its gameplay for the time.

David Rutter was integral in getting EA to invest money into the gameplay and (as far as the board was concerned) take a huge risk by developing the "Ignite" engine and freeing the ball from the players for the first time ("but what if the long-term fans hate it")... and they made the best FIFAs ever as a result. Simon sadly passed away in 2015 - and David was given a higher-level job around the same time. Since then (and the move to Frostbite)... Well. Sales are great. Critical reception, not so much.

If anything, I'd say PES and FIFA are now more "play one way to win, play any other way and you'll lose" than ever - and I don't feel like guys like Seabass, Simon and David are ever going to have the freedom to tear things up again and make a game that football lovers want.

BUT.

Konami have decided they need to take a year off from "full" PES development, to make something that they hope will be mindblowing. This is an absolute first. The producer (who according to the PES 2020 credits is Manorito Hosada - who was the Marketing Manager for PES 2014 incidentally, what a strange career progression!) has managed to convince the company to take a huge risk, not unlike Rutter did (even though Konami don't depend on PES for cash like EA depends on FIFA - which, incidentally, may never really change as a result).

If there's a chance of football games getting good again, PES 2022 will be the moment, I think.
If it isn't - then I don't think it'll ever happen.
Click to expand...

Chris I will always be down for story time cheers

You mentioned something that I've said from time to time; if the actual development team had the freedom to make the football game they wanted to make, I think we'd be in a different place. But unfortunately they don't have the final say.

So who knows what will happen with this next 'cycle' and ultimately what direction PES will take going into the new console generation.
 
That was a very sentimental & inspirational post and @PRO_TOO put it best, Touching.

I will never forget you telling me that story in our interview and i was incredibly inspired and even more respect for the man. Sadly FIFA WC 2010 is such a niche title that only football game connaisseurs ecognise it's significance as well as it's influence on the franchise for that period that it's a bit of a shame it doesn't get any more recognition.

Despite never knowing the man personally of course there's still a sense of bitter sweetness on the rare occasion i boot up WC 2010. Because of his passion for the sport and the direction we all want it to go in personified in the game, It's like playing something left my a ghost. The game has his fingerprints all over it, a true shame he was gone way before his time.

It's just astonishing out drastically the games, their direction & the industry has changed in those 10 years.

The fact that with what's archaic technology by today standards and how close they we're to truly recreating football with the limited resources one would salivate at the thought of where we could be in another 5 years, Just had to hold a little longer but it was sadly the beginning of the end for the respect for the fundementals of football.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I played three seasons in World Class with 14 min games and I was finding it a little two easy. The shorter game times at least gave me pressure to score but the CPU refused to score against me even when it was through.

I was regularly going 10 games without conceding and there’s only so many times you can beat Buffon’s record.

At the end of last season I went back to Super Star just to try and concede a goal! I did and I kept it on to give myself a challenging finish.

With three back to back titles under my belt I thought now is a good time to try a whole season on Super Star and I was happy to aim for a top 4 finish. But it’s just so horrible.

Last night I beat Atalanta 5:2 but conceded a goal from my own thrown in when my players ran into each other. I lost 1:0 to Bari and Brescia in two of the most frustrating experiences of my life with countless misplaced passes and missed 1v1s. I then had a disappointingly easy win against Liverpool.

I’m thinking of dropping back to World Class but editing my players’ stats down especially my GK. This might make it a little bit challenging. I can then go back to Super Star if I want a silly experience.

At least on World Class I could enjoy myself.
 
MyNoFoot said:
Thanks for the replies.

I played three seasons in World Class with 14 min games and I was finding it a little two easy. The shorter game times at least gave me pressure to score but the CPU refused to score against me even when it was through.

I was regularly going 10 games without conceding and there’s only so many times you can beat Buffon’s record.

At the end of last season I went back to Super Star just to try and concede a goal! I did and I kept it on to give myself a challenging finish.

With three back to back titles under my belt I thought now is a good time to try a whole season on Super Star and I was happy to aim for a top 4 finish. But it’s just so horrible.

Last night I beat Atalanta 5:2 but conceded a goal from my own thrown in when my players ran into each other. I lost 1:0 to Bari and Brescia in two of the most frustrating experiences of my life with countless misplaced passes and missed 1v1s. I then had a disappointingly easy win against Liverpool.

I’m thinking of dropping back to World Class but editing my players’ stats down especially my GK. This might make it a little bit challenging. I can then go back to Super Star if I want a silly experience.

At least on World Class I could enjoy myself.
Click to expand...
World Class = Top player? Am i right?
 
PRO_TOO said:
Yeah, it’s all very paradox!! :P
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Jokes aside, the official company themselves, should come with an official statement, since the rumors are being spread the last 2 weeks.
I think it is very harmless to just say "We go for an UPDATE 2021, or e-Update 2021, or eFootball Update 2021, or whatever, or on the other hand to just say
"We come with a full game but more on this latter". I find it very odd, to keep silence both with rumors and theories.
 
slamsoze said:
Jokes aside, the official company themselves, should come with an official statement, since the rumors are being spread the last 2 weeks.
I think it is very harmless to just say "We go for an UPDATE 2021, or e-Update 2021, or eFootball Update 2021, or whatever, or on the other hand to just say
"We come with a full game but more on this latter". I find it very odd, to keep silence both with rumors and theories.
Click to expand...
fully agree dude! you started it! :P

the sources are telling the announcement is 2 days overdue now! :LOL: ;)
yeah, i wish theyd say something, whatever it is. just some official word from konami!
 
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