eFootball PES 2020 Demo Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox)

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My memories of PES 2014 aren't so fond.
But I do remember loving how the AI moved defensively. It really made it very hard to attack. Specially if you intended to attack them down the center. They forced you to pass it to the sides and look for space.
I also loved the cloth physics (at the time). Something cosmetic and meaningless really, but Konami never payed attention to cloth physics ever again after that.
 
B-Man said:
I just watched this PES 2014 video
We all remember the crappy response times but everything else was on the right track.

-The tactical system
-the size of the pitch is smaller and not this huge pitch that we have today where the game just gives you artificial space on purpose
- The A.I. in attack and defense looks light years better than any A.I. we've seen in PES the past 5 years
- The player awareness and positioning is light years better than the past 5 years. notice how there aren't these huge gaps between the lines like we have had the past 3+ years
- The animations look phenomenal. they attempted some sort of foot planting, body balance and physicality
- very rarely do you see a slidey animation now all we have is slidey skatey animations
- the ball physics weren't bad either.

Go watch a PES 2019 video now from the other day after watching this video. The game looks like it has regressed so much.

If they would have stayed on track and built off of PES 2014 and figured out response times I think PES would be phenomenal right now. Instead we get a game that keeps changing the "on ball" stuff every year. The "on ball" stuff has not been the problem yet every year its something new. Go work on the off-ball stuff that gets passed over every year. How can you make changes to ML and expect people to play it if the A.I. sucks?

I digress
Click to expand...


I held 2014 in high regard - it was easily the PES that I know that actually improved its gameplay as time went on and that's why I'm fond of it - it was a sign that the devs cared about the game.

I had been put off going back to it after seeing Defoe was not in Master League (I could've sword he was a major player in my online team back then) but I think I got to accept this otherwise I am missing out.

I remember Forlan being in my team too.

PES 2014 was good. It made me happy. :)


.....And it was pre-MyClub too. you played games and got GP to build your squad. None of this heavy grinding that we see in MyClub.

....I really really really hope PES 2020 fails so that konami will go back to their roots.

....Sad to say but I think some folks need either sacking or changing around - feels like they're doing the job just because they've got a secure position (just like the guys throwing out fake 9/10 ratings) - some fresh input is desperately needed for proper innovation that delivers a fun experience to its players.

.... Perhaps once upon a time these guys thought they controlled the game and its direction. Its going to take someone with balls to look beyond monetisation and fix this mess. Until they do, my money is in my wallet.

But yeah.... PES 2014 was good and it made me happy.
 
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about pes 2014
it was the most advanced, innovative groundbreaking effort of making a football sim. i think it was more a tech demo of what fox engine can do.
Unfortunately, bad control implementation, and some mishits here and there, made it a struggle to play and have fun with it.
Yes, pes14 had slidey and chopped animations, that was more pronounced due to the overall smoothness and naturallity.
Yes player awareness was bad, players let the ball pass by their feet.
There was no explosion or nerve, everything was in a sluggish "zen" mode.
Passing was the most inconsistent thing in this game.
Ball physics was spot on, but lacked spin retention as in pes 19 or 20.
Graphics also was spot on, i think much more photorealistic than the following titles.

All in all, Pes 14 was a joy to watch, but a struggle to play.
Bad acceptance from the audience, made konami discard all of the top notch technology, and be back on the safe path of old school soccer gaming with pes 2015, which was an okeyish playable soccer, but after playing pes 14 felt extremely linear, obsolete and stale.
 
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Just watched the E3 trailer again. Has anyone seen any of the "new ways to defend" in the gameplay capture videos? Particularly the pull back foul you can see Vidal doing? Section starts at 1:47

 
Yes, 2014 was more " joy " to watch because the animations were with better transitions, after -without ball players movements was more natural.

Human eyes and brain really easy can recognize when something is not... natural. In PES 2019/2020 when players pass shot or lose the ball, he starts to make unnatural movements, shakes, or frame-animation skipping.

THAT is a huge difference between all this CGI fantastic-looking fake gameplays and PES game :
If we do not look at the graphics like lights, clothing physics and shadows, just look without and after passing ball, players animations-movements are with natural transitions, pace, logic and weight. That whats make ower brains to see this gameplay CGI like " real match".
 
flokiman said:
about pes 2014
it was the most advanced, innovative groundbreaking effort of making a football sim. i think it was more a tech demo of what fox engine can do.
Unfortunately, bad control implementation, and some mishits here and there, made it a struggle to play and have fun with it.
Yes, pes14 had slidey and chopped animations, that was more pronounced due to the overall smoothness and naturallity.
Yes player awareness was bad, players let the ball pass by their feet.
There was no explosion or nerve, everything was in a sluggish "zen" mode.
Passing was the most inconsistent thing in this game.
Ball physics was spot on, but lacked spin retention as in pes 19 or 20.
Graphics also was spot on, i think much more photorealistic than the following titles.

All in all, Pes 14 was a joy to watch, but a struggle to play.
Bad acceptance from the audience, made konami discard all of the top notch technology, and be back on the safe path of old school soccer gaming with pes 2015, which was an okeyish playable soccer, but after playing pes 14 felt extremely linear, obsolete and stale.
Click to expand...

PES 2014 was like a tech demo just like FIFA 07 was like a tech demo. Then FIFA 08 did some really nice things but had response time issues and then FIFA 09 came along and the rest is history.

That’s the difference. EA knew they were going to have bumps and bruises but the reward would be there in due time where as Konami introduced new tech and panicked cause it wasn’t perfect right away.

That was the beginning of the dumbing down A.I. gameplay cycle
 
There was no perfect PES yet, i would much prefer this combo of a game:

- PES2019: GK, physicality, dribbling system, ball physics
- PES5: foul system, cpu team tactical awerness (with changing formation depending on importance and scoreline, subbing a DF for CF and putting him up front, etc), stat system
- PES6: shooting mechanics, passing mechanics
- PES2013: dribbling ai
- FIFA17: team tactic and build up as its being the most realistic, you can set up tiki taka and counter play, long balls, anything. injury system
- FIFA19: career mode


Oh and i still dont see in the 2020 videos these type of dribbling

https://youtu.be/g6yojxFWJRY?t=682
https://youtu.be/g6yojxFWJRY?t=852
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=198
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=274
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=308
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=355

giphy.gif
 
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gabe.paul.logan said:
There was no perfect PES yet, i would much prefer this combo of a game:

- PES2019: GK, physicality, dribbling system, ball physics
- PES5: foul system, cpu team tactical awerness (with changing formation depending on importance and scoreline, subbing a DF for CF and putting him up front, etc), stat system
- PES6: shooting mechanics, passing mechanics
- PES2013: dribbling ai
- FIFA17: team tactic and build up as its being the most realistic, you can set up tiki taka and counter play, long balls, anything. injury system
- FIFA19: career mode


Oh and i still dont see in the 2020 videos these type of dribbling

https://youtu.be/g6yojxFWJRY?t=682
https://youtu.be/g6yojxFWJRY?t=852
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=198
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=274
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=308
https://youtu.be/1_XI3JN17Jo?t=355

giphy.gif
Click to expand...
that would be a hell of a monster (-football game)!!!!! :ROCK:

i'd call it "Zlatan - the game"! :LOL:
 
Lami said:
You know why you find some FIFA players on YouTube kinda impressed with PES? Because it tickles their arcade, free-flowing, seamless, nonstop gameplay they want. They want to play a football game and have mindless fun with it. When they crap on FIFA now and cheer for PES, you know why. When they don't find the arcade elements they always loved in FIFA and changes to something more realistic, they call it shit and unresponsive. They try PES and praise it, because it gives them what they're looking for.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's true.

Fifa fans dislike Pes so much that when it was offered free with Ps+ they absolutely raged. Saw many people saying:"won't play it even if free" and things like that.

Do you know what Fifa fans say about Pes? "Yes, after Fifa releases who plays Pes anymore?"

Pes is still firmly Pes, it's still distinguishable from Fifa, even if it has several elements coming from it.

There are some Fifa fans giving a try to Pes every year because they are tired with Fifa's stale gameplay but that's it. I think we shouldn't act like Fifa is the best and Pes is the worst because that's far from truth.

There is a reason why almost everyone is angry with the way EA develops its game but despite that most don't even give Pes a chance, some are attracted by it and try the demo but are quickly put off by its "slow and clunky" gameplay, that's what they say about Pes.

So, both are not at their best. Best Fifa age was Fifa 08-12. Best Pes age was Ps2 age. This generation has been so bad for football games, dominated by microtransactions.

Best case would be a third competitor like @B-Man said, but that won't happen as the videogame market as it is right now doesn't allow for something experimental, like it was in Ps1 and Ps2 days.
 
robbieryan said:
and what a terrible decision it is too! how is that a penalty :RANT:
Click to expand...
My #1 concern whenever I see that Konami have "listened" is that it's been implemented in a damaging way. If I see "more fouls" I think "please don't mean that every time you make physical contact with someone, the code 'tosses a coin' and awards a foul half the time". Same with "more penalties" - that's not a pen...

I instantly saw "miskicks" and thought "oh God, I bet it's not based on body-position or ball spin, I bet it's just that if you're a player whose OVR <80, you randomly miskick"... But looking at the pre-release vids I might be wrong here.

peterc10 said:
Don't think anything can top this...

Click to expand...
I really liked WLS, it felt like it had real potential to upset the big boys of football gaming at the time. But those cutscenes were hilarious. He couldn't have less conviction and motivation if he'd come into the studio on the morning that his dog had died and his wife had shit the bed.

You've seen the Michael Owen helicopter tour, right?

 
Chris Davies said:
Quick, someone give him a call - if it's named after him and heavily features him, he may pay for the entirety of its development!!
Click to expand...
yeah man! put him on the cover! let him take over...!!! :APPLAUD:

make him a legend in the game! scrap all other legends! make him a regen! create him multiple times as a legend (young, middle, old -aged)! make his hair cuts unlockable in a store (scrap boots)! add Zlatan style dialog system to ML (would be my fav feature i guess :LOL: )! make him a manager legend (yes he can)! make him a referee (he can do that too!)! make him a fan in the stands! let Zlatan do all Drury commentary! Make Sweden the best national team in the game! In celebration cutscenes: let Zlatan hand the trophy over to Zlatan! release a special edition with a "rubbing card" that smells like Zlantans swet! and there is more!!! :LMAO:

sorry for OT... i got caught in this a little.... :BYE:
 
B-Man said:
I just watched this PES 2014 video
We all remember the crappy response times but everything else was on the right track.

-The tactical system
-the size of the pitch is smaller and not this huge pitch that we have today where the game just gives you artificial space on purpose
- The A.I. in attack and defense looks light years better than any A.I. we've seen in PES the past 5 years
- The player awareness and positioning is light years better than the past 5 years. notice how there aren't these huge gaps between the lines like we have had the past 3+ years
- The animations look phenomenal. they attempted some sort of foot planting, body balance and physicality
- very rarely do you see a slidey animation now all we have is slidey skatey animations
- the ball physics weren't bad either.

Go watch a PES 2019 video now from the other day after watching this video. The game looks like it has regressed so much.

If they would have stayed on track and built off of PES 2014 and figured out response times I think PES would be phenomenal right now. Instead we get a game that keeps changing the "on ball" stuff every year. The "on ball" stuff has not been the problem yet every year its something new. Go work on the off-ball stuff that gets passed over every year. How can you make changes to ML and expect people to play it if the A.I. sucks?

I digress
Click to expand...

This!
When I have seen the first gameplay vids of PES 2014 I was amazed how fluid the animations looked.
Loved the body shifting and some other stuff they have implemented.
After a couple of months they even made it playable by patches.

That´s why I was looking forward to PES 2015, because I expected a fine tuned, ironed out PES 2014.
When I played the demo I was mad disappointed...it was a whole different game to me...the feeling I had with PES 2014 (even with all the flaws) was totally gone.

Can´t watch all those gameplay vids anymore.
It´s interesting to check out AI behaviour and new animations and visual stuff, but I can´t watch people playing anymore.
I´d probably check out a full manual game (hope someone will load it up), cause I can´t see that assisted stuff no more.
Plus, what really hurts my eyes is when people press the shoot button, even the player stands with the back to the goal. That turn and shot looks so off. Same with passing to the back quickly instead of getting the player in position.
 
egkboss said:
Just watched the E3 trailer again. Has anyone seen any of the "new ways to defend" in the gameplay capture videos? Particularly the pull back foul you can see Vidal doing? Section starts at 1:47

Click to expand...
I think that everyone's seen it mate. That was big news like a month ago
 
B-Man said:
I just watched this PES 2014 video

We all remember the crappy response times but everything else was on the right track.
Click to expand...

I posted these a while back in the Retro Thread. I revisited this a couple of months ago and i'm blown away by how realistic this game tried to be, the ambition and vision for PES 2014 and what the series could've been on Fox is a painful time capsule of could haves and should haves.

I like the comparison to FIFA 07, Yes PES 2014 was of course marketed and sold as a full price game, But it was really an unfinished product, Rushed out by corporate just like PES 6 & FIFA 06 RTWC on Xbox 360 was. But if we consider it a demonstration of the tech and vision Konami had for Football games, It really serves as a sad reminder of the series potential.

But due to backlash from an unfinished game from consumers and pressure from corporate, They did a 180 on this direction as they (perhaps correctly) assumed the majortiy of players didn't want pure realism and that they want fast and addictive fun. Hence PES 2015 being such a departure from simulation couple with the micro-transaction culture of gaming and the concept of eSports, we are where we are today.

I'll leave some more clips of little nuances that were in PES 2014 then removed.

Ivanovic wins a slide tackle and releases a pass while staying down. Think they removed this animation in games since?

Nice one handed save animation that doesn't have moon physics. I'm playing on -1 game speed here which explains why it looks a little slow.

Size doesn't always matter, Henderson coming across the bigger Yaya with enough momentum is always going to unbalance the larger opponent.

Nice glimpse of the games inertia and sense of weight.

Not to mention the animations, foot planting and inverse kinetics. If only more emphasis was placed in current PES on body momentum like they did here. They claim they've rebuilt dribbling in 2020 but it still doesn't come off as naturally as it does on PES 2014
 
Chuny said:
I think this one is new?

Click to expand...

The good and awful at 2.03, which is when I turned off. A through-ball ball deflects into Martial's path (which is quite nice to see) but then the goalie is rooted to the line and then Martial inexplicably does a falling over shot from 7 yards out. Who is programming this nonsense?

I've been recording a few 2019 moments recently and might upload a classic PES moment I had recently - A long distance pass back to the goalie from the CPU , dribbles slowly towards the keeper who has 25 yards of space in all directions. He does a sliding/falling over clearance for no reason that drops towards my striker (this is in BAL) who lashes a volley into the top corner from 25 yards! :D You would cry if you weren't so used to the absurdity!
 
orangebard said:
The good and awful at 2.03, which is when I turned off. A through-ball ball deflects into Martial's path (which is quite nice to see) but then the goalie is rooted to the line and then Martial inexplicably does a falling over shot from 7 yards out. Who is programming this nonsense?

I've been recording a few 2019 moments recently and might upload a classic PES moment I had recently - A long distance pass back to the goalie from the CPU , dribbles slowly towards the keeper who has 25 yards of space in all directions. He does a sliding/falling over clearance for no reason that drops towards my striker (this is in BAL) who lashes a volley into the top corner from 25 yards! :D You would cry if you weren't so used to the absurdity!
Click to expand...

I think sometimes animations take over common sense in PES.
I felt that way many times in PES 2019. It's like, the engine or the code or whatever goes "hey, this animation looks great... lets use this one even if the situation could be resolved with a simpler one". Which might be the case in that Martial sliding shot.
 
@MafiaMurderBag I think the fanbase lost faith and hope in PES 2014 because of the unresponsiveness and input lag (along with a really really poor Master League) and FIFA was doing everything right (for a long time).
So when you played FIFA 14, everything felt solid, responsive, with dozens of animations for every action, gameplay sliders, etc, etc, etc. It felt like "the real next gen". While PES had incredibly lifelike moves and collisions (something where FIFA was failing in back then, because players would get stuck, or their hips would sort of "break" and split apart) but it was stained with an "unfinished product" perfume. So Konami had to reinvent themselves rather quickly and get up before PES stopped existing. So they moved to a faster paced gameplay, prioritisation responsiveness over footplanting and transitions. Prioritising space for the human player to run freely, instead of a tight game full of midfield battles. Prioritising automatised on-target shots and passes over body positioning and innumeracy. ETC- But that was just a way to say "Hey please don't abandon us, we fixed the unresponsiveness and input lag, look!". When instead of maintaining that great foundation from 2014 and just work with it, they had to get rid of many things in order to make the game more responsive to compete with a super-reactive FIFA.

That's my POV.
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
I posted these a while back in the Retro Thread. I revisited this a couple of months ago and i'm blown away by how realistic this game tried to be, the ambition and vision for PES 2014 and what the series could've been on Fox is a painful time capsule of could haves and should haves.

I like the comparison to FIFA 07, Yes PES 2014 was of course marketed and sold as a full price game, But it was really an unfinished product, Rushed out by corporate just like PES 6 & FIFA 06 RTWC on Xbox 360 was. But if we consider it a demonstration of the tech and vision Konami had for Football games, It really serves as a sad reminder of the series potential.

But due to backlash from an unfinished game from consumers and pressure from corporate, They did a 180 on this direction as they (perhaps correctly) assumed the majortiy of players didn't want pure realism and that they want fast and addictive fun. Hence PES 2015 being such a departure from simulation couple with the micro-transaction culture of gaming and the concept of eSports, we are where we are today.

I'll leave some more clips of little nuances that were in PES 2014 then removed.

Ivanovic wins a slide tackle and releases a pass while staying down. Think they removed this animation in games since?

Nice one handed save animation that doesn't have moon physics. I'm playing on -1 game speed here which explains why it looks a little slow.

Size doesn't always matter, Henderson coming across the bigger Yaya with enough momentum is always going to unbalance the larger opponent.

Nice glimpse of the games inertia and sense of weight.

Not to mention the animations, foot planting and inverse kinetics. If only more emphasis was placed in current PES on body momentum like they did here. They claim they've rebuilt dribbling in 2020 but it still doesn't come off as naturally as it does on PES 2014
Click to expand...
My God.

I'm watching those with terrible wifi and when they play at a low-res, they very genuinely look like clips of real football. Whereas 2019, everything is so "perfect" and tiki-taka and fast, it's blatantly a game at any res.

I read a while ago that someone had modded 2014 to take away some of the sluggishness, I really need to get hold of that mod...

Imagine playing PES 2014 and giving the controller to someone who loves PES as it is now. They'd think we're mad. Bridging that gap (to communicate with the eSports guys) is really difficult, and given how laggy 2014 felt to play, I get why.
 
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