eFootball PES 2020 Demo Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox)

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Emroth said:
Thank you.
What im aiming at is - in theory - ML is also E-football, right?
The whole Pes is E-football... so are we not overreacting saying its all online E sport focused? I mean... its a stupid name, and purple background with this logo during replays is even more annoying, but.. apart from that why are we angry?
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it is a stupid name. as far as I know I've been using electronics to play footy games since the 1980s.

When I tell people I people I play efootball, I am sure they will consider me retarded.
 
Bearwithit said:
This happens on a yearly basis where the guys invited to play test it hype it up, every single time so they will be asked to come again next year.
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This again. No doubt, people will remain civil and complimentary so as not to lose out on opportunities. But Chris, e.g., still gets invited to playtests after absolutely slating past editions. It's not how it works.

Really, there are several reasons the reports of gameplay these guys give doesn't match up to what you experience in the final product:

  • Very different build, things get changed
  • Very different expectations to what people on here expect
  • Very different playstyle and experience with offline game
  • Easily swept up with the excitement of a new game and being privileged to play it before others
  • Only playing for a limited time as opposed to the weeks and months during which the game will be scrutinised here by a whole community
  • Not being as good at spotting AI issues or reading the game with a tactical mind (not everyone can be Matt10!)
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
At least people are interested in watching someone play the actual football match and not click off the video once the pack openings are done.
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It's been fascinating to watch it develop from the sidelines. People really seem to value the streamers as hosts or curators of a public space, or an interest group. Fans of streamers interact with the streamer and others in the group, and they buy into norms sometimes quite unique to that group. Streamers also participate with each other and together the groups form a nexus of overlapping interests we better know as a community.

I've said it time and time again, but it isn't just our expectations for a footballing SIM that have aged; it's also our entire relationship to gaming and community. When people refer to the "PES community" now, they don't mean discrete forums like Evo-Web, WENB, PES-fan, etc. – they mean a group of people who interact across platforms (Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, to some extent Reddit) and unify around a common interest.

From the outside, it looks superficial. There's no doubt it lacks a certain charm – everything is enabled by corporations, profiting from "content", commoditising the interactions of the community. That's a far cry from forums and newsgroups and the like. But on the inside you can see that a lot of it is just people growing up amid changing technology, and the people in these groups definitely seem to feel a strong bond with each other and their common interest.

I'd like to think I wouldn't be a part of the eSport revolution if I was born 10 years later. But I'm not sure I'd be free not to. Culture has a way of consuming people. This is how you do games – eFootball PES 2020 included – now.
 
TheGoodOldDays said:
It's always good to see a PES5 video just to remind you that the desire for basic elements of realism is not "asking too much", especially when it was possible on game consoles with less power than today's phones.
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This comment explains the point perfectly.

We love the older games not because they were realistic, but because they were built under a set of rules that are consistent throughout. There is almost nothing 'realistic' about that clip. In real life, players don't sprint like they're on their own individual pentagon, hexagon, and octagon based railroad track dependant on how good they are at dribbling, but we loved it because everyone followed the same SIMPLE rules. It was predictable. It could be manipulated by the player as even the most minor of formation changes made a difference to a well trained eye, and from it's predictability it made seeing and attack 5 passes ahead, of defending that attack far, far better. It was, in essence, an arcade game.

Back to the topic - I've, personally, always found modern PES is at it's best when everyone is rated below 80, and that Palmeiras vs Flamengo game looked quality, to me at least.
 
I don't want so sound ungrateful, i am honestly happy about the return of the 2nd leagues in Spain and Italy.
BUT why don't they put at least fake leagues in for 3rd/4th english league and 1. and 2.Bundesliga. Just so that the modding community has an integrated template. It can't be that hard to create a bunch of randomly generated names right? And they obviously do know about all the modding/editing, right?
 
OBH said:
We love the older games not because they were realistic, but because they were built under a set of rules that are consistent throughout.
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Completely disagree. The realism is there in that you can't complete 100% of your passes with perfect accuracy, using your reserve midfielder. Realism is represented despite the technology. More so than it is now. It is nothing to do with being more "fun" or "consistent". Not to me, anyway.

OBH said:
In real life, players don't sprint like they're on their own individual pentagon, hexagon, and octagon based railroad track dependant on how good they are at dribbling
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You're looking at it at an incredibly technical level. No matter the technology constraints, realism was achieved by attributes having meaning.

Those technical constraints no longer exist (in the industry, CPU power is incredible now) AND YET basic constraints DO still exist in PES's modern engine - i.e. button presses are very obviously ignored in order to give the defender an opportunity to steal the ball.

They've not moved on - yet at the same time, with all players having the same accuracy levels in passing and shooting, it's regressed, in those terms and in terms of realism.

In other words...

The older games were completely ANTI-this:

MafiaMurderBag said:
That pass makes absolutely no sense in the context of his body shape or the direction he's facing in. I can't tell who that is but i'm assuming it's Rakitic, Who is right footed. So he's doing this first time pass to a player who is directly behind him, can't see, with his weak foot and it still has enough power to find it's target. That's what breaks the immersion for me in regards to passing. It just seems like no matter what situation the player is in, they'll always release a successful pass.
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OBH said:
Back to the topic - I've, personally, always found modern PES is at it's best when everyone is rated below 80, and that Palmeiras vs Flamengo game looked quality, to me at least.
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Yup. That's why most of my games are PvP online in a league where all our teams (each entirely unique) are comprised of people in mostly the 70-80 range. The game always shines better at that level.
Chris Davies said:
Completely disagree. The realism is there in that you can't complete 100% of your passes with perfect accuracy, using your reserve midfielder. Realism is represented despite the technology. More so than it is now. It is nothing to do with being more "fun" or "consistent". Not to me, anyway.
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It feels like you two aren't disagreeing that much. I've never been a fan of the arcade vs realistic/sim contrast. It's pretty clear that one way to achieve a sense of realism is by including the right arcadey elements in the right places.
 
Chris Davies said:
Completely disagree. The realism is there in that you can't complete 100% of your passes with perfect accuracy, using your reserve midfielder. Realism is represented despite the technology. More so than it is now. It is nothing to do with being more "fun" or "consistent". Not to me, anyway.


You're looking at it at an incredibly technical level. No matter the technology constraints, realism was achieved by attributes having meaning.

Those technical constraints no longer exist (in the industry, CPU power is incredible now) AND YET basic constraints DO still exist in PES's modern engine - i.e. button presses are very obviously ignored in order to give the defender an opportunity to steal the ball.

They've not moved on - yet at the same time, with all players having the same accuracy levels in passing and shooting, it's regressed, in those terms and in terms of realism.

In other words...

The older games were completely ANTI-this:
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Do You mean Pes 5 and 6 were realistic football games but with poor technology?
 
Rodchenko said:
Calm down, it was rhethorical obviously. And where did I allude to anything you said in the last sentence?
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Apologies - it wasn't entirely aimed at you. It just doesn't help anyone constantly comparing to the other game. It doesn't matter what EA do - and saying "I'd rather PES conferences were like they are, and not their aimed-at-kids rubbish" is a bit like saying "at least playing PES doesn't make your PS4 explode". It's not really a plus point, it's just a baseline expectation...!

Lons said:
Do You mean Pes 5 and 6 were realistic football games but with poor technology?
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That's a good way of putting it. What those games simulated in terms of realism was based on individuality, player attributes that would define what you could and couldn't do, and would broadly stop you making impossible passes (and therefore make you think about every move you make).

I don't think that's the case now. It's less "chess" and more... I don't know, what's the opposite of chess? :D

It might look better, the ball physics might be better - I would say that's a technical level - but the mechanics that achieved realism then, no longer exist.

If PES was exactly as it is now, warts and all, but there was just one major change - more passes going astray, or more difficulty advancing up the field (for both sides), or attributes having a much greater effect - you'd have the best of both worlds and the best PES game to date.
 
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Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I like how the ref's decision on a possible penalty/foul is seen from the playing view.. adds way more tension, when you have to wait, then suddenly you see the decision made (in this case for the defending team).. its at 16.45 of the video. Pretty sure this wasn't the case in previous versions, where instead you'd hear the whistle, then zoom into the referee for a decision. Forgive me if this does happen in pes2019, as I cannot remember seeing this.

 
Chris Davies said:
They've not moved on - yet at the same time, with all players having the same accuracy levels in passing and shooting, it's regressed, in those terms and in terms of realism.
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The sad thing is they clearly have the capability to do it. I saw a good example of context sensitive kicking (in the very first stream I believe) where Vidal shot too close to his body and completely fluffed it, that was great to see, but it's so rare as to have almost no effect on gameplay. And these are back of the box features. It's like they want to give a nod to the sim crowd by adding certain realism elements but make them so contextually rare in order to not overly bother the eFootballers.

P.S. one of the worst things that doesn't get mentioned often is regular aerial passes, they are so horrendously assisted that I can't remember the last time I saw a switch of play not come off or force a player to alter their movement. I remember back in the day you could very easily punt it out if you didn't take care with it. I facepalm every time I see it that perfectly precalculated path the ball takes to its target.

OBH said:
This comment explains the point perfectly.

We love the older games not because they were realistic, but because they were built under a set of rules that are consistent throughout. There is almost nothing 'realistic' about that clip. In real life, players don't sprint like they're on their own individual pentagon, hexagon, and octagon based railroad track dependant on how good they are at dribbling, but we loved it because everyone followed the same SIMPLE rules. It was predictable. It could be manipulated by the player as even the most minor of formation changes made a difference to a well trained eye, and from it's predictability it made seeing and attack 5 passes ahead, of defending that attack far, far better. It was, in essence, an arcade game.

Back to the topic - I've, personally, always found modern PES is at it's best when everyone is rated below 80, and that Palmeiras vs Flamengo game looked quality, to me at least.
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What it boils down to for me is risk versus reward. Everything is too sanitised in modern PES, you should be able to make yourself look like a muppet from time to time. I want to see a flowing move end with a scuffed shot bobbling towards the corner flag. I thought the double tap thing they added to FIFA was stupid but when I tried it and completely fluffed my lines it was glorious, and it made me want to try it again next time to see if I could pull one off. Not saying they should add anything like that, but this to me is where PES currently breaks down, there needs to be a wider spectrum of outcomes.
 
Thespeedster84 said:
Off topic.. let's see pes 6 passing..
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What shocks me is how that passing is truly identical to now, on a visual/technical level (i.e. laser-guided) - it hasn't moved on.

But I take the point you're obviously posting this to make, i.e. not many passes are going off-target. Can't argue with that, but I still say you wouldn't be able to make the same 180-spin no-look complexity of passing in those games that you can now.
 
aussiepesfan said:
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I like how the ref's decision on a possible penalty/foul is seen from the playing view.. adds way more tension, when you have to wait, then suddenly you see the decision made (in this case for the defending team).. its at 16.45 of the video. Pretty sure this wasn't the case in previous versions, where instead you'd hear the whistle, then zoom into the referee for a decision. Forgive me if this does happen in pes2019, as I cannot remember seeing this.

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I often look at the ref when a call gets made, but I don't remember there being so much delay in the decision.
 
TheGoodOldDays said:
P.S. one of the worst things that doesn't get mentioned often is regular aerial passes, they are so horrendously assisted that I can't remember the last time I saw a switch of play not come off or force a player to alter their movement. I remember back in the day you could very easily punt it out if you didn't take care with it. I facepalm every time I see it that perfectly precalculated path the ball takes to its target.
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This has been absolutely horrendous for many years now, especially when the AI is doing it. You constantly see an average AI defender, who is under pressure and with the back to the pitch, perform a clearance that finds a team mate like a heat sensitive missile. It's like the shooter solved some differential equations in the split second before he touched the ball. And, as you mentioned, the receiver doesn't even have to move an inch. Ball falls on his chest and he always - always - handles it perfectly.

Same goes for goalies and their downfield rockets after a back pass. It doesn't matter whether it's Neuer or a generic goalie from FC Xuiplmont, they always home in, they never go off bounds, or - heaven forbid - touch the ground without anyone close by to intercept it.
 
Chris Davies said:
Completely disagree. The realism is there in that you can't complete 100% of your passes with perfect accuracy, using your reserve midfielder. Realism is represented despite the technology. More so than it is now. It is nothing to do with being more "fun" or "consistent". Not to me, anyway.

You're looking at it at an incredibly technical level. No matter the technology constraints, realism was achieved by attributes having meaning.
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It's not looking at it on a technical level at all, it's looking at it from a point of view of what fundamentally makes a good video game. You absolutely must have a level of consistency and predictability in there - because this is a video game.

In PES5, if your mate was sprinting at you from midfield with, say, Gerrard, you KNEW you couldn't barge him off the ball, you KNEW how a player with that level of dribbling stats would move around the pitch. If he was to hold down sprint for the duration, you could physically trace the exact route he could take across the pitch in you wanted to. From a realism standpoint, that's a million miles away from being realistic. No one is ever going to say "oh wow, PES5 is the perfect representation of how a human being moves around" In fact, at times it's almost hilarious how rigid they are in their movements, but from a gameplay perspective - it was absolutely superb - You could predict when, and where, to slide tackle with real accuracy. Those games had some incredible last-ditch tackles not because it was 'realistic', but because you could see things developing and time tackles to absolute perfection. Consistency doesn't mean '100% of passes succeeding', it just means rules that are visible throughout, and can be learnt by the player.

PES's golden age wasn't more 'realistic' games. They were just built with simpler rules, simpler mechanics, consistent in their gameplay, and polished their simple mechanics to a near-perfect mirror shine.
 
janguv said:
Hopefully there are more mishit passes in the final build, and less like this:
q07oKVJ.gif
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Yes, being off balance doesn't effect the end result, for passing and shooting.
 
Bond!JamesBond! said:
Yes, being off balance doesn't effect the end result, for passing and shooting.
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He's using one of the high rated players in the game and one of the best players in the world today? How is that a fair benchmark?

Compare Barcelona players trying it to this guy. (not the best quality gif sorry, but the pass is rubbish)
giphy.gif
 
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Chris Davies said:
What shocks me is how that passing is truly identical to now, on a visual/technical level (i.e. laser-guided) - it hasn't moved on.

But I take the point you're obviously posting this to make, i.e. not many passes are going off-target. Can't argue with that, but I still say you wouldn't be able to make the same 180-spin no-look complexity of passing in those games that you can now.
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Yes, 180 passing accuracy now is annoying.
Regarding the normal pass.. is about power and trajectory. No matter what, It will at the end comes to the receiving players foot. That's unless it is out of play or intercepted. The latter is the one that makes it should be challenging to pass between high and low rating of passing attribute.

For example with the same duration pass button pressed/same pass bar, high rated player will produce exactly the speed of the ball intended especially for close angle but not with low rated player where the ball should travel slower. In this case we'll be more careful to pass with low rated one especially if he is closely near defender that easily intercepts that pass. Hence, we'll think to pass to more free player.

The impact of passing attributes that i think i (we) miss a lot.
 
If people is comparing PES 2020 with PES 5/6 instead of PES 2019, something is going well. Sure.

After 4 years in a row going to arcade more and more, this sudden turn to simulation is maravellous.
 
Chris Davies said:
That's a good way of putting it. What those games simulated in terms of realism was based on individuality, player attributes that would define what you could and couldn't do, and would broadly stop you making impossible passes (and therefore make you think about every move you make).
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I said something in the retro thread that applies here I think. In the older versions, "We made the decisions, the players carried it out according to their abilities or lack thereof."
 
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