eFootball PES 2020 Demo Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox)

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@Chris Davies

For what it's worth, here is a video testing the AI with more average teams (Newcastle vs Watford). Played it on the PC, Superstar, PA1, basic shooting, 12 minutes. Not sure how much the time extension influences the results and mileage might vary on consoles, of course. Then there is always the difference between playing and watching it.

Tried to shorten it as much as possible, but keep it in its entirety. I accelerated some parts, still 14 minutes in length. I think watching only the second half gives enough of an impression (but you'll miss my nice header goal right after kick-off ;)


You be the judge. One could argue that it doesn't feel much like a Premiership game but compared to the AI of last year this is night and day imo. They play long balls, they play build-up, they dribble slowly with the ball and weigh their options, they play sideways and back, there are first touch errors and passes not finding their target. There are some moments that you mentioned you are afraid of, but they can be explained with the context (they concede early and need to step it up). AI goals are slightly sketchy but probably due to my not mastering controls yet. And they are much nicer than the low-cross/top corner bullshit we had last year

And, of course, I lost again.. 1-2.
 
OBH said:
I think the idea of team tactics is a completely flawed idea anyway, and should just be removed entirely.

Teams tactics don't actually exist on their own, they're the combination of the players own individual instructions.

Counter attacking football doesn't just happen, it's because each player is told not to engage the opposition and let them come into your half, it's because the defenders are told to get the ball to the best deep lying passer in the team ASAP. It's because the passer is told to pass the ball up the pitch immediately if the pass is on, because the wingers are told to run into spaces the moment their team receives the ball. Etc, etc, etc.

Yes, by all means PES can still include ' possession', 'counter attacking' and whatever other styles they wish, but rather than just a broad instruction to the whole team, it should instead be a pre set of individual instructions that together creates counter attacking football which you could then tweak to your hearts content. Essentially, if you picked 'counter attacking' these kind of individual instructions all change to create that style of football.
View attachment 18214

The other problem is that there is no visual representation of what certain things will do, take the 'defensive line' slider for example -

If I set up my team using either of these two settings, could you tell me just by looking at them how the defenders are going to act on the pitch? (Besides from concede a lot of goals!)
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The game shows where the defensive line will be, but how does that differ depending on where you place the players positionally? There's no correlation between the settings you choose and the position of the players. You're just left with nothing but guesswork and trial and error.

It can be summed up pretty easily with a 4 lettered word, that starts with S, ends in T, and it isn't 'soot'.
Click to expand...

I've always wondered what would happen if my player positioning and my team tactics clashed, never bothered experimenting with it tho. Always left the tactics to the team tactics and tried to position my players in more "neutral" positions (Not too high, not to low, not too center, not too wide...). The first time you boot up any of the recent PES games, they ask if you want to use a "basic game plan", it would be a good place to implement the current gameplan and have the new one you suggested as standard.
 
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The_Knight said:
Hey guys, I released a review for the demo... Can't wait for the full game:

Click to expand...

Hey man! Nice review as always, you know how to mount and comment your works very well. I haven't enjoyed that much 2019 and 2018, but I remember your realism videos to be a very good watch all the same. We are on the same page about 2020 demo tho :D
 
Rodchenko said:
@Chris Davies

For what it's worth, here is a video testing the AI with more average teams (Newcastle vs Watford). Played it on the PC, Superstar, PA1, basic shooting, 12 minutes. Not sure how much the time extension influences the results and mileage might vary on consoles, of course. Then there is always the difference between playing and watching it.

Tried to shorten it as much as possible, but keep it in its entirety. I accelerated some parts, still 14 minutes in length. I think watching only the second half gives enough of an impression (but you'll miss my nice header goal right after kick-off ;)


You be the judge. One could argue that it doesn't feel much like a Premiership game but compared to the AI of last year this is night and day imo. They play long balls, they play build-up, they dribble slowly with the ball and weigh their options, they play sideways and back, there are first touch errors and passes not finding their target. There are some moments that you mentioned you are afraid of, but they can be explained with the context (they concede early and need to step it up). AI goals are slightly sketchy but probably due to my not mastering controls yet. And they are much nicer than the low-cross/top corner bullshit we had last year

And, of course, I lost again.. 1-2.
Click to expand...
You're a star, seriously - thanks so much for recording this and putting it up. It's great to see, and without you doing this none of us would be able to imagine what games like these will look like.

There are loads of little touches when it comes to the ball physics, and misplaced passes, that I love.

My problem is that every time Watford get possession here - except for kick-off after your goal (nice header) - it's like the players in the middle don't exist.

It's easier to demonstrate with clips, so I'll timestamp them below.

This is a complete list of the AI's time on the ball EXCLUDING A) a couple of very obvious counter attacking opportunities where passing straight forwards is vital, B) goalkeeping smashes upfield to the striker (four times) and C) three times (e.g. 8:25) where they do seemingly pass it around for about five seconds.

All other possession is below. It all fits the same pattern. The centre of the field may as well not exist. They just want to get the ball to the furthest guy forward, most of the time.

2:35-2:56 (so many opportunities to build up the play in the middle!!!)

4:59-5:10 (just straight-line passes forwards, ignoring every free pass)

5:43-5:46 (even as a counter attack, everybody in the middle is completely free!!!)

6:57-7:09 (the CBs and CM are just begging for a simple pass, completely free)

7:43-7:47 (get the ball, smash it forwards - completely free pass targets in the middle)

8:44-8:50 (ruler-straight passes forwards to get to the striker ASAP)

9:40-9:45 (regain possession, lay off, hump it forwards)

10:00-10:07 (so many options in the middle, but they just get the ball to the furthest forward player)

10:27-10:30 (hump forward to the furthest forward player)

10:37-10:40 (hump forward to the furthest forward player)

12:04-12:09 (OMG PASS THE BALL so many free targets, but just runs into you instead!!! And why? Because... No interest in passing to the middle, only forwards, and no straight-line forward pass was on!!!)

EVEN A THROW-IN, 12:15-12:21 (two unmarked pass targets, and he just throws it as far as he can, and it would have ended with conceding possession if not for the foul)

13:47-13:54 (guy in the middle free, nope, straight pass forwards)

...

On the ball, it feels fantastic. But the AI, and the tactical side of the game, is just cripplingly basic. (In my opinion!)
 
I absolutely hate the tactics screens. Makes no sense to me at all and I've never really gone through the required trial and error to figure out the cryptic meanings/effects of all the options and put my own tactics together.

Does anyone has any advice for guides/videos which make it easy to understand each aspect of the tactical options? Any specific to 2020?

Some of the AI in isolation is very intelligent despite the poor tactics system - I liked the way my wide player here made a diagonal run;


(click for HD)
 
rojofa said:
I absolutely hate the tactics screens. Makes no sense to me at all and I've never really gone through the required trial and error to figure out the cryptic meanings/effects of all the options and put my own tactics together.

Does anyone has any advice for guides/videos which make it easy to understand each aspect of the tactical options? Any specific to 2020?

Some of the AI in isolation is very intelligent despite the poor tactics system - I liked the way my wide player here made a diagonal run;


(click for HD)
Click to expand...

Talking about cryptic I've only just seen 2019's definition of Track back trait. I'd always assumed it meant an attacking player would retreat faster if loss of possession occurred.

According to konami 2019 ML Track back is "enables an offensive player to actively pressure the opposition player who is on the ball to try to win it back."

Baffling.

Maybe calling it "win it back" trait would be better? ... just not "track back"
 
Yeah, obviously the AI needs improvement.
And I still feel there should be a bigger battle for midfield. Less space.
That doesn't mean there should be more pressure. I like the way the AI pressures now.
But the lines should be closer, tighter, less space, less gaps.

I know this as a choice, and not a lack of.
They want the game to have space so you can run with the ball and use skill moves and feel free.
Just a liiitle bit more battle and tighter lines would make this so much better.
 
Chris Davies said:
You're a star, seriously - thanks so much for recording this and putting it up. It's great to see, and without you doing this none of us would be able to imagine what games like these will look like.

My problem is that every time Watford get possession here - except for kick-off after your goal (nice header) - it's like the players in the middle don't exist.

It's easier to demonstrate with clips, so I'll timestamp them below.

This is a complete list of the AI's time on the ball EXCLUDING A) a couple of very obvious counter attacking opportunities where passing straight forwards is vital, B) goalkeeping smashes upfield to the striker (four times) and C) three times (e.g. 8:25) where they do seemingly pass it around for about five seconds.

All other possession is below. It all fits the same pattern. The centre of the field may as well not exist. They just want to get the ball to the furthest guy forward, most of the time.

2:35-2:56 (so many opportunities to build up the play in the middle!!!)

4:59-5:10 (just straight-line passes forwards, ignoring every free pass)

5:43-5:46 (even as a counter attack, everybody in the middle is completely free!!!)

6:57-7:09 (the CBs and CM are just begging for a simple pass, completely free)

7:43-7:47 (get the ball, smash it forwards - completely free pass targets in the middle)

8:44-8:50 (ruler-straight passes forwards to get to the striker ASAP)

9:40-9:45 (regain possession, lay off, hump it forwards)

10:00-10:07 (so many options in the middle, but they just get the ball to the furthest forward player)

10:27-10:30 (hump forward to the furthest forward player)

10:37-10:40 (hump forward to the furthest forward player)

12:04-12:09 (OMG PASS THE BALL so many free targets, but just runs into you instead!!! And why? Because... No interest in passing to the middle, only forwards, and no straight-line forward pass was on!!!)

EVEN A THROW-IN, 12:15-12:21 (two unmarked pass targets, and he just throws it as far as he can, and it would have ended with conceding possession if not for the foul)

13:47-13:54 (guy in the middle free, nope, straight pass forwards)

...

On the ball, it feels fantastic. But the AI, and the tactical side of the game, is just cripplingly basic. (In my opinion!)
Click to expand...

Appreciate the time you took with analyzing this. My feeling is (without double checking this due to the late hour) that you are right on all accounts. Keep in mind, though, that I switched to blue defensive level right after the early goal which essentially handed them midfield. My team also turned to shit after the first goal and I probably stayed to far away from the ball carrier due to still struggling with mechanics, particularly in defence.

In the end it was more meant to be a comparison with 2019. And you will probably agree that the AI patterns of 2020 are much more developed. I never saw an AI player slowly dribble into pockets of space in 2019. They were, for the most part, playing ice hockey, with uber-precise first touch passes and mathematical downfield rockets from the keepers.

What I was missing much more from this than tactical finesse was the potential to explode and play high speed football EPL style - not for all of the match, mind, but for certain phases. Like I said, it didn’t feel like a premier league game, more like a casual pre-season encounter.
 
Chris Davies said:
You're a star, seriously - thanks so much for recording this and putting it up. It's great to see, and without you doing this none of us would be able to imagine what games like these will look like.

There are loads of little touches when it comes to the ball physics, and misplaced passes, that I love.

My problem is that every time Watford get possession here - except for kick-off after your goal (nice header) - it's like the players in the middle don't exist.

It's easier to demonstrate with clips, so I'll timestamp them below.

This is a complete list of the AI's time on the ball EXCLUDING A) a couple of very obvious counter attacking opportunities where passing straight forwards is vital, B) goalkeeping smashes upfield to the striker (four times) and C) three times (e.g. 8:25) where they do seemingly pass it around for about five seconds.

All other possession is below. It all fits the same pattern. The centre of the field may as well not exist. They just want to get the ball to the furthest guy forward, most of the time.

2:35-2:56 (so many opportunities to build up the play in the middle!!!)

4:59-5:10 (just straight-line passes forwards, ignoring every free pass)

5:43-5:46 (even as a counter attack, everybody in the middle is completely free!!!)

6:57-7:09 (the CBs and CM are just begging for a simple pass, completely free)

7:43-7:47 (get the ball, smash it forwards - completely free pass targets in the middle)

8:44-8:50 (ruler-straight passes forwards to get to the striker ASAP)

9:40-9:45 (regain possession, lay off, hump it forwards)

10:00-10:07 (so many options in the middle, but they just get the ball to the furthest forward player)

10:27-10:30 (hump forward to the furthest forward player)

10:37-10:40 (hump forward to the furthest forward player)

12:04-12:09 (OMG PASS THE BALL so many free targets, but just runs into you instead!!! And why? Because... No interest in passing to the middle, only forwards, and no straight-line forward pass was on!!!)

EVEN A THROW-IN, 12:15-12:21 (two unmarked pass targets, and he just throws it as far as he can, and it would have ended with conceding possession if not for the foul)

13:47-13:54 (guy in the middle free, nope, straight pass forwards)

...

On the ball, it feels fantastic. But the AI, and the tactical side of the game, is just cripplingly basic. (In my opinion!)
Click to expand...

This demo shows a big improvement on Pes 2019 thanks to the removal of unrealistic offensive plays and CPU players respecting their stats and not morphing into top players just because the difficulty is set at Superstar level, but yeah if you know where to look there are someexamples of the same rigid tactic system that is in Pes since lots of years now.

At 4:06 the Watford player intercepts the ball but it rebounds a little further from him. Normally a real life football player would go for that ball and regain possession, but since he is in a rigid defensive tactic he completely disregards the ball and goes back to mark the Newcastle player. It doesn't make sense.

I would say this year they have done their best to improve AI with this limited tactics system, but they definitely need to overhaul it for the next years.
 
Simcut said:
I wish Konami would be brave and tell the people complaining about fouls so much to stop mashing the X button and then link them to the defending tutorial :D
Click to expand...

True... man I feel like defending finally takes a bit of skill. Although I'm sure the "ePros" and the myclub crowd will be pissed that they cant just hold X and barge over their opponent. I really hope Konami shows a little backbone and keeps the fundamentals in place of what they have now... not saying it's perfect (perhaps AI fouls vs. User need a slight slight tweak) but the more I play the demo the more I appreciate the nuances of defending.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong regarding a bit more tactical defending and most likely pissed off myclub crowd.
Isn't FIFA Ultimate team Tactical defending only?
Which means that crowd can't just spam a button to defend,I see no reason for Konami to change this for the online ping pong guys?
 
rockstrongo said:
Correct me if I'm wrong regarding a bit more tactical defending and most likely pissed off myclub crowd.
Isn't FIFA Ultimate team Tactical defending only?
Which means that crowd can't just spam a button to defend,I see no reason for Konami to change this for the online ping pong guys?
Click to expand...

This is correct. Though manual defending in FIFA has been broken for several years now (hence the overhaul this year) and so people just relied on the AI to defend, which many argue was OP.

So you're right, but there still was exploits. But PES in general is so much more assisted than FIFA that 1-to-1 comparisons of the defensive mechanics are tough.
 
I see all the issues and I dont deny them, but I have to say - Im honestly in love with this game.. cant really judge AI until we play Master League, but gameplay, in general, is so fucking solid..
I know it takes a lot of frustration and time to learn manual (shit, I only started with Pes19, so old dog new tricks...) but this game on manual is unbelievable. Dont remember last football game that gave me so much joy (especially online).
If you get an opponnent that wants to play football and is not one of those FUMA Terminators - you wish match wouldnt end.
It all seems like Hype City, but physicality, ball physics, shot variety, pace and all little animations are pure joy to watch.

If, having such a good base, they still manage to fuck it up for release - I think ill hang my virtual football boots and just play fucking bingo...
 
mfmaxpower said:
This is correct. Though manual defending in FIFA has been broken for several years now (hence the overhaul this year) and so people just relied on the AI to defend, which many argue was OP.

So you're right, but there still was exploits. But PES in general is so much more assisted than FIFA that 1-to-1 comparisons of the defensive mechanics are tough.
Click to expand...
I usually let the Ai defend and I track runs or/and position myself for through balls/crosses.
I really like the defending in this one,defending and scoring should be the hardest in a game/IRL
 
On one hand I love how crossing looks and feels in this game. On the other, the physics of heading the ball are absolutely horrendous and I cannot believe Konami still gets this so wrong. I think it's gotta be the worse thing in the game. So tired of setting up my strikers for great headers and the result is almost always these terrible floaty shots. Ugh.
 
mfmaxpower said:
On one hand I love how crossing looks and feels in this game. On the other, the physics of heading the ball are absolutely horrendous and I cannot believe Konami still gets this so wrong. I think it's gotta be the worse thing in the game. So tired of setting up my strikers for great headers and the result is almost always these terrible floaty shots. Ugh.
Click to expand...

Agree on that. For all of the improvements there are certain glaringly obvious poor areas they seem to have completely ignored.

Bullet headers don't seem to exist. Every header seems to float over the bar.
 
Mikhail said:
If it’s faster on final release I’ll just drop it down to -1, not an issue.

You’re PES Universe right? Can you give @official PES twitter account feedback and tell them that the diehards love this demo and not to f**k around with it too much? We’d really appreciate it :)

It’s the first PES since PES 2013 that myself and others are very excited about.
Click to expand...

Way ahead of you my friend. I have already received great feedback from konami that the game has been received well and people like the changes.

PES 2020 is broken in regards to responsiveness but its clicked for me. I can now use R2 the same way as before in conjunction with the right stick.
 
What is the agility stat now? Was explosive power before but that's gone?

Also can they PLEASE just give them all normal names? Unwavering balance, explosive power etc. last year just sounds ridiculous and some of them are needlessly more complicated and confusing than they should be.
 
NathW90 said:
What is the agility stat now? Was explosive power before but that's gone?

Also can they PLEASE just give them all normal names? Unwavering balance, explosive power etc. last year just sounds ridiculous and some of them are needlessly more complicated and confusing than they should be.
Click to expand...

Thats what they did and thats why you cannot find Explosive Power anymore hahaha!

Attacking Prowess -> Offensive Awareness
Swerve -> Curl
Explosive Power -> Acceleration
Unwavering Balance -> Balance
Defensive Prowess -> Defensive Awareness
Goalkeeping -> GK Awarness
GK Catch -> GK Catching
Clearing -> GK Clearing
Reflexes -> GK Reflexes
Coverage -> GK Reach

Malicia -> Gamesmanship
 
This is the camera angle I referred to in a previous post: Zoom 8, height 4 and Angle 10.

https://xboxclips.com/CalcioCalabrese/7dd28209-260e-49af-9662-fa72a2e96cd3

Regarding headers, I saw Ronaldo controlled by the AI do a floaty header last night so it's not just human players lol. But Mandzukic has done a couple of nice ones, headed down into the pitch and Lukaku has done a couple of decent ones for me. I wonder if the pass assistance settings dictate the distance between oncoming ball and header speed.
 
mfmaxpower said:
On one hand I love how crossing looks and feels in this game. On the other, the physics of heading the ball are absolutely horrendous and I cannot believe Konami still gets this so wrong. I think it's gotta be the worse thing in the game. So tired of setting up my strikers for great headers and the result is almost always these terrible floaty shots. Ugh.
Click to expand...

Strange, I only played with manual shooting thus far and havent got any problems regarding headers, lots of power and lots of variety. Maybe not the best example seeing as in this case the attacker extends the ball, but still:

 
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