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eFootball (All Platforms)

janguv said:
Btw, a side point and I don't want to dredge up the full discussion again – but I noticed @The_Knight say (in eFootball's favour) that they've scrapped the need for PS+ now. That's false: you already didn't need it to play the Lite version for some time now. I'm less confident about it, but I think also maybe you didn't even need it for PES full version in the last couple of years.

So it's not something we can lump into the "Konami are being nice actually" box.
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Someone on reddit told me that wasn't the case, that they needed PS+ and this is a big deal.
 
The_Knight said:
Someone on reddit told me that wasn't the case, that they needed PS+ and this is a big deal.
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It's possible it was just for the 2019 year and I assumed it carried on. But yeah, the reason eFootball is playable w/o PS+ seems to be because that is now the norm for games properly titled as F2P.
 
It's a shame that the game looks so poor that any reasons for optimism, and I mean any reason, must now be looked on critically.

And to be absolutely clear, that's not a criticism of anyone in this thread. Not even remotely so.

I simultaneously see reasons for optimism ( game looks notionally more free, although not meaningfully so, the game shape looks good, the graphics apart from the pitch look not bad, and for some twisted, shameful reason, I quite like the graphic design, it reminds me of a 90's sports programme for some reason and invokes a level of nostalgia that pes menus never have, except maybe pes 3 or 11)... and extreme pessimism, that this game is the product of truly toxic attitudes from both company and customer alike, and quite possibly portends the end of civilisation as we know it.

Or at least supercancel.

In my darkest moments, I cant stop wondering what this thread will look like come Jan '22.
 
FShas said:
It's a shame that the game looks so poor that any reasons for optimism, and I mean any reason, must now be looked on critically.

And to be absolutely clear, that's not a criticism of anyone in this thread. Not even remotely so.

I simultaneously see reasons for optimism ( game looks notionally more free, although not meaningfully so, the game shape looks good, the graphics apart from the pitch look not bad, and for some twisted, shameful reason, I quite like the graphic design, it reminds me of a 90's sports programme for some reason and invokes a level of nostalgia that pes menus never have, except maybe pes 3 or 11)... and extreme pessimism, that this game is the product of truly toxic attitudes from both company and customer alike, and quite possibly portends the end of civilisation as we know it.

Or at least supercancel.

In my darkest moments, I cant stop wondering what this thread will look like come Jan '22.
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It'll be quiet in Jan, but then we'll come out of hibernation around July for the build up to the release of eFootball 23.... Oh wait
 
janguv said:
I predominantly picked up on his reasons for saying that the game was not actually dumbed down (which are bad reasons, per my arguments – and it turns out, rely entirely on Kimura's promotional interviews, not even footage),
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Again, sorry for saying something positive about the new gameplay changes, but:

Evidence of it not being dumbed down:

1) Defending is much harder and more deliberate now. It is less assisted and rewards player skill. Do we know that for a fact? Of course not we didn't play the game. What did the leaked footage tell us? Not much. Maybe they couldn't defend because it was harder, or maybe they couldn't because they really couldn't play. That said, defending last year was way more dumbed down.

2) Shooting Dippers and Risers, and long lofted passes: Seems like we'll need to press R2 and the power bar will fill slower. Sounds like an extra challenge. Again, do we know that for sure? No. We haven't played the game. What did the footage tell us? Not much, the feature wasn't out yet and won't be out on launch.

3) Weaker evidence: Ball seems more loose and less assisted on assisted passing. Not verified but multiple reports mentioned that and it can be seen in the leaked footage.

4) Can't bring in second defender (debatable, I personally mean it means less assistance)

Evidence of it being dumbed down:

1) No longer able to select players to run

2) No second defender pressure (debatable)

I think that the evidence of it being dumbed down does not outweigh the evidence of it moving towards less assists and more control to the players. Sue me 😎
 
The_Knight said:
I think that the evidence of it being dumbed down does not outweigh the evidence of it moving towards less assists and more control to the players. Sue me 😎
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You missed out removal of right stick player switching, also greatly simplified tactical settings. Your number 3) shouldn't be there until it's confirmed, it can't be "seen in the leaked footage" because there is a clear indicator that something else is causing the inaccuracy (the blue power bar). The reality is probably somewhere in between, in typical Konami fashion it's muddled and confused, without a clearly identifiable strategy. Some things are about giving more control while other things are about removing control and enforcing Kimura's vision of 1v1 battles all over the pitch. Also a lot of what contributes to this loosely defined idea of being "dumbed down" is not necessarily about user control in the first place. For instance substantial AI improvements resulting in more tactical matches would result in a more thoughtful game, and conversely a more primitive AI would completely negate any new features like "sharp kicks", so I think it's impossible to say until the game is released and we can see how far it has progressed from the NFG build, which don't forget was more or less universally panned from a gameplay perspective.

Also you predicted we'd be "blown away" by the visuals at Gamescom, so let's hope your predictions about gameplay are slightly better.
 
The_Knight said:
Again, sorry for saying something positive about the new gameplay changes, but:

Evidence of it not being dumbed down:

1) Defending is much harder and more deliberate now. It is less assisted and rewards player skill. Do we know that for a fact? Of course not we didn't play the game. What did the leaked footage tell us? Not much. Maybe they couldn't defend because it was harder, or maybe they couldn't because they really couldn't play. That said, defending last year was way more dumbed down.

2) Shooting Dippers and Risers, and long lofted passes: Seems like we'll need to press R2 and the power bar will fill slower. Sounds like an extra challenge. Again, do we know that for sure? No. We haven't played the game. What did the footage tell us? Not much, the feature wasn't out yet and won't be out on launch.

3) Weaker evidence: Ball seems more loose and less assisted on assisted passing. Not verified but multiple reports mentioned that and it can be seen in the leaked footage.

4) Can't bring in second defender (debatable, I personally mean it means less assistance)

Evidence of it being dumbed down:

1) No longer able to select players to run

2) No second defender pressure (debatable)

I think that the evidence of it being dumbed down does not outweigh the evidence of it moving towards less assists and more control to the players. Sue me 😎
Click to expand...
(1) At the risk of repeating myself for a third or fourth time: you're conflating "easy" and "dumbed down". Things can get harder because they've been simplified in some way. In this case, defending in the NFG was notably tricky because you couldn't use essential tools in order to defend, such as RS switching – a mainstay of the series for years now and something that you simply must do to cover lanes and anticipate runs. The ONLY way you could remove something like that, and still have a team that can press intelligently is if: (i) you have very competent and reactive AI and (ii) you have detailed tactical options that the AI can carry out or (iii) the selection logic is perfect. We have none of those things, and we had none in the NFG, and as a result, the net effect is dumbed down. It's the sort of scenario where everyone suffers because those who wouldn't use more advanced skills (manual switching) or execute a better understanding of the game (through tactical changes) are put on a level playing field with those who do posses those skills and insight.* That's a dumbing down. A change of defensive controls so you can't barge with X is not sufficient to change this net effect; far from it.

*there, I'm portraying it as PvP, which is how the NFG games were of course, but it carries over to single-player – you can be a more skilful player than I am vs the COM along those metrics: playing skill and tactical awareness.

(2) I think the effect of longer power bars is muted when you consider how much more difficult defending is (because dumbed down!). We'll see. But I don't think this is a very new feature anyway. Anyone who plays PES 2021 11v11 FUMA (because so much more congested in the midfield) is intimately aware of how different skill traits, attribute levels, and playing styles can affect the use of lofted through balls (of different kinds) – when you have a millisecond to pull something off, you'll often go for an X pass as the only thing that doesn't have much animation wind-up, depending on your player. I'm very much unconvinced Konami are adding anything new to the game with "sharp kicks". We'll see.

(3) I think 3 is very weak. It's reminiscent of the infamous "free as a bird". Staffan mentioned the blue bar, which is definitely something that puzzled me on the footage. I would have to really study it to see if the ball was actually more free and what conditions favour it. I didn't feel so playing FUMA on NFG – if anything, I felt it was a tad more assisted, though someone else here wrote the opposite. The other thing, though, is that with the player selection logic being considerably worse in the NFG, and AI being dumb, there was often acres of space around players. (At first – it makes me laugh to remember – I thought we finally had a midfield game in PES, but it was actually just the duel cam zooming in so close I couldn't really perceive properly!) So naturally some balls will be loose and land in the empty spaces. Kimura loves his empty spaces after all! Those beautiful 5 metres around the ball 😍

(4) If you used 2nd man press in automated/mindless fashion in PES 2021, you were generally at a disadvantage. You were better off overriding it to make the tackle manually. I also think it's odd how people regard it as assisted, but not letting the AI sit in tight low blocks, as became an online meta. If you just harass the ballcarrier with an active player and leave the AI to cut out balls, that is overall a very assisted way of playing when you think about it. If, however, you're using manual switching to select defenders, bringing them across to block lanes, simultaneously holding second man press to close down space, then switching to that player or to another to bring across – all of this in a cycle (that's how I defend to smother space and goad the opponent into certain zones), it's incredibly hands-on. It's not "assisted" just because part of the defensive cycle involves holding a button where the COM player approaches the ball. It's certainly no more assisted than letting COM players sit in a block never leaving any space in behind. You're making the decision to bring in a player and how far to bring him in, rather than letting the AI logic determine what happens with that player.
 
The_Knight said:
Evidence of it not being dumbed down:

1) Defending is much harder and more deliberate now. It is less assisted and rewards player skill. Do we know that for a fact? Of course not we didn't play the game. What did the leaked footage tell us? Not much. Maybe they couldn't defend because it was harder, or maybe they couldn't because they really couldn't play. That said, defending last year was way more dumbed down.
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Maybe you're a secret FUT fan but this is the exact thing they are saying about defending. We all know how that turned out. Or maybe you don't understand that it's team sport and you can't change something in defence and not affect attack.

The reality is that this change dumbs down attacking. They are copying Fifa to appeal to children who don't know how to score goals.
 
manmachine said:
Maybe you're a secret FUT fan but this is the exact thing they are saying about defending. We all know how that turned out. Or maybe you don't understand that it's team sport and you can't change something in defence and not affect attack.

The reality is that this change dumbs down attacking. They are copying Fifa to appeal to children who don't know how to score goals.
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You have a point in how making defending harder, makes attacking easier. However, this is true in FIFA where dribbling --not even agile dribbling-- is way, way, way more OP than in PES, as are the role of skills etc. This is why Physical Defending has a much better chance of working in PES, than it had in FIFA.

And no I'm not a secret FUT fan; FUT gameplay is a particularly horrible brand of garbage, even more trashy than FIFA's default gameplay.
 
The_Knight said:
And no I'm not a secret FUT fan; FUT gameplay is a particularly horrible brand of garbage, even more trashy than FIFA's default gameplay.
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It is, so there's nothing good to come out of copying it. Also I thought you were all about realism? How would you say does it affect realism to take out of the game stuff that's part of the sport? I fully expect you to start using FUT terms like "skill gap" now...
 
RexBanner said:
Crazy how PES 2022 being shit led to me find out that I can play most of the old PES classics on my non gaming PC. Just started playing PES 2013 and it runs smooth as butter.
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Although I still have my PS3 and copy of PES 13, I assume my HP laptop with a Pentium gold processor is a bit too low spec wise?! Always wanted to try a modded pc version of a PES!
 
The_Knight said:
Again, sorry for saying something positive about the new gameplay changes, but:
....
Click to expand...

The_Knight said:
I think that the evidence of it being dumbed down does not outweigh the evidence of it moving towards less assists and more control to the players. Sue me 😎
Click to expand...

You are losing your composure & being condescending now, because people aren't blindly agreeing with you.

You are using your energy & influence to criticize your peers, and defend malpractice. It's as simple as that. Go on write another useless paragraph about feeling in control..
 
janguv said:
(1) At the risk of repeating myself for a third or fourth time: you're conflating "easy" and "dumbed down". Things can get harder because they've been simplified in some way. In this case, defending in the NFG was notably tricky because you couldn't use essential tools in order to defend, such as RS switching – a mainstay of the series for years now and something that you simply must do to cover lanes and anticipate runs. The ONLY way you could remove something like that, and still have a team that can press intelligently is if: (i) you have very competent and reactive AI and (ii) you have detailed tactical options that the AI can carry out or (iii) the selection logic is perfect. We have none of those things, and we had none in the NFG, and as a result, the net effect is dumbed down. It's the sort of scenario where everyone suffers because those who wouldn't use more advanced skills (manual switching) or execute a better understanding of the game (through tactical changes) are put on a level playing field with those who do posses those skills and insight.* That's a dumbing down. A change of defensive controls so you can't barge with X is not sufficient to change this net effect; far from it.

*there, I'm portraying it as PvP, which is how the NFG games were of course, but it carries over to single-player – you can be a more skilful player than I am vs the COM along those metrics: playing skill and tactical awareness.

(2) I think the effect of longer power bars is muted when you consider how much more difficult defending is (because dumbed down!). We'll see. But I don't think this is a very new feature anyway. Anyone who plays PES 2021 11v11 FUMA (because so much more congested in the midfield) is intimately aware of how different skill traits, attribute levels, and playing styles can affect the use of lofted through balls (of different kinds) – when you have a millisecond to pull something off, you'll often go for an X pass as the only thing that doesn't have much animation wind-up, depending on your player. I'm very much unconvinced Konami are adding anything new to the game with "sharp kicks". We'll see.

(3) I think 3 is very weak. It's reminiscent of the infamous "free as a bird". Staffan mentioned the blue bar, which is definitely something that puzzled me on the footage. I would have to really study it to see if the ball was actually more free and what conditions favour it. I didn't feel so playing FUMA on NFG – if anything, I felt it was a tad more assisted, though someone else here wrote the opposite. The other thing, though, is that with the player selection logic being considerably worse in the NFG, and AI being dumb, there was often acres of space around players. (At first – it makes me laugh to remember – I thought we finally had a midfield game in PES, but it was actually just the duel cam zooming in so close I couldn't really perceive properly!) So naturally some balls will be loose and land in the empty spaces. Kimura loves his empty spaces after all! Those beautiful 5 metres around the ball 😍

(4) If you used 2nd man press in automated/mindless fashion in PES 2021, you were generally at a disadvantage. You were better off overriding it to make the tackle manually. I also think it's odd how people regard it as assisted, but not letting the AI sit in tight low blocks, as became an online meta. If you just harass the ballcarrier with an active player and leave the AI to cut out balls, that is overall a very assisted way of playing when you think about it. If, however, you're using manual switching to select defenders, bringing them across to block lanes, simultaneously holding second man press to close down space, then switching to that player or to another to bring across – all of this in a cycle (that's how I defend to smother space and goad the opponent into certain zones), it's incredibly hands-on. It's not "assisted" just because part of the defensive cycle involves holding a button where the COM player approaches the ball. It's certainly no more assisted than letting COM players sit in a block never leaving any space in behind. You're making the decision to bring in a player and how far to bring him in, rather than letting the AI logic determine what happens with that player.
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I wish I could remember what colour the passing and shooting bar was when I played the beta. I was on manual and it definitely was a different colour to what others played on. I'm pretty sure it was yellow/gold though, but I can't say for certain. Maybe the blue we saw shows a level of the PA assistance? Maybe blue for low level of assistance for example, then green for fully assisted? That's just a guess, not something I can verify as I didn't fully pay attention to it or play any beta games with any assisted passing options.

Talking of freeness again, the ball did bounce off players legs and bodies more randomly due to poor ball control or possibly poor physics. I wouldn't say it was a good thing though. It was like a delayed reaction from them to a ball coming their way for the most part. The ball went out of play a lot more too. All part of that clunky feeling of the beta.
 
Superhoop said:
I wish I could remember what colour the passing and shooting bar was when I played the beta. I was on manual and it definitely was a different colour to what others played on. I'm pretty sure it was yellow/gold though, but I can't say for certain. Maybe the blue we saw shows a level of the PA assistance? Maybe blue for low level of assistance for example, then green for fully assisted? That's just a guess, not something I can verify as I didn't fully pay attention to it or play any beta games with any assisted passing options.

Talking of freeness again, the ball did bounce off players legs and bodies more randomly due to poor ball control or possibly poor physics. I wouldn't say it was a good thing though. It was like a delayed reaction from them to a ball coming their way for the most part. The ball went out of play a lot more too. All part of that clunky feeling of the beta.
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Early konami demos always had a feeling of freedom, but it was never intentional, it was simply that they hadnt tightened their game yet. Passes would go astray not because of built in error but because of the game being unfinished. I'd expect it to be the same now unfortunately.
 
It's funny whenever I watch a mate play on manual passing for the first time after playing against him when he's been using assisted passing. Their passes go nowhere near a player of theirs and it's like, "what direction were you pushing when you were playing assisted?"
 
Joga said:
You are losing your composure & being condescending now, because people aren't blindly agreeing with you.

You are using your energy & influence to criticize your peers, and defend malpractice. It's as simple as that. Go on write another useless paragraph about feeling in control..
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In the same way that You are ?

I have read enough fuckery now in this thread to last Me out of 2021.

Suggest some of You back off the personal stuff and just talk about the game, and not each others opinions.

Opinion is an entitlement around here.

Because as per usual, it will all heat up and kick off , just don't .
 
Superhoop said:
It's funny whenever I watch a mate play on manual passing for the first time after playing against him when he's been using assisted passing. Their passes go nowhere near a player of theirs and it's like, "what direction were you pushing when you were playing assisted?"
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I have wondered this too. I wonder if the knowledge that passing is now manual, with the margin for error now multiplied, simply freaks people out. They weren't all that accurate before, but now the stakes are higher, they're even less so.
 
Was thinking about the removal of the 2nd man press, and some problems just went through my head based on PES 21 gameplay. How will we do when we are playing against someone who is winning by one and just keep the ball back there passing the ball in their defense, without a 2nd man press? Many people already did this in some games online, even with second man press, but now i guess it should be even easier.

I don´t mind that they had removed the fully automatic "press pass button to match and steal", that is a good thing but, how will you defend if you can control just one player at a time, knowing how bad the AI as been, and how the script may affect that in an even worse way, since you cant even cut pass lanes while you have another man at leat bothering the player with the ball? We will have to relly on the "not so good" player switch of PES. So they give us more control in one thing, the standing tackle, but then dont balance the rest of it.

The trigger run with the right stick has been removed to? Can´t remember when i played the NFG. If it still is there, we will had another problem, which is we are not going to be able to select the correct player to track that man, since AI almost never did it correctly. Anyone who plays online, probably knows the exploit of the kick of lobbed through pass to the CF. Without the right stick player selection it will be almost impossible to defend, since we are not going to be able to select the CB just to cover that run immediattly.


Ah for those that were questioning about full manual on the NFG, i saw some videos on youtube, of some people that state they are paying in FUMA and the bar is Orange. I did not manage yet to see the blue bar, maybe they changed it from orange to blue since the gree one is maintained.
 
h3li0 said:
Was thinking about the removal of the 2nd man press, and some problems just went through my head based on PES 21 gameplay. How will we do when we are playing against someone who is winning by one and just keep the ball back there passing the ball in their defense, without a 2nd man press? Many people already did this in some games online, even with second man press, but now i guess it should be even easier.

I don´t mind that they had removed the fully automatic "press pass button to match and steal", that is a good thing but, how will you defend if you can control just one player at a time, knowing how bad the AI as been, and how the script may affect that in an even worse way, since you cant even cut pass lanes while you have another man at leat bothering the player with the ball? We will have to relly on the "not so good" player switch of PES. So they give us more control in one thing, the standing tackle, but then dont balance the rest of it.

The trigger run with the right stick has been removed to? Can´t remember when i played the NFG. If it still is there, we will had another problem, which is we are not going to be able to select the correct player to track that man, since AI almost never did it correctly. Anyone who plays online, probably knows the exploit of the kick of lobbed through pass to the CF. Without the right stick player selection it will be almost impossible to defend, since we are not going to be able to select the CB just to cover that run immediattly.


Ah for those that were questioning about full manual on the NFG, i saw some videos on youtube, of some people that state they are paying in FUMA and the bar is Orange. I did not manage yet to see the blue bar, maybe they changed it from orange to blue since the gree one is maintained.
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Great point about online players just knocking the ball around at the back and not being able to press them with multiple ai players. Maybe they can be brought back in, but I'd like to know why they removed it in the first place/didn't include it as part of the gameplay development for unreal.
 
robozaoGOAT said:
im toxic playing offline aswell

f**king AI thinking they can beat me :RANT:
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I had a friend that used to open the PS2 disc tray while the game was still running, take the game out & spit on the disc in a rage & put it back in the PlayStation & carry on playing to send the AI a message whenever he felt like it was cheating against him.
 
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