eFootball (All Platforms)

*aLe said:
Old school gamers.
The ones that played PES (and ISS, before that) during its PS1 and PS2 days (well, that was easy) and that backed it and supported it during the PS3 days (now that's a feat).
It's discouraging to see that Konami just waved them (us?) goodbye because they found a new audience, more willing to play quick one-off online matches and get instant gratification instead of committing to the grind of a properly done Master League.
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Yes most of the crowd who enjoyed pes from the beginning are now 'old' generation. I estimate most of us are now 30+
The new crowd I think Konami is talking about are around 14 - 25 years old.
Most of them never played on a ps2 i'm guessing. All they know is the pes and fifa games we think are crap. And if all you know is crap even crap can be wonderful.
 
Dillion said:
Yes most of the crowd who enjoyed pes from the beginning are now 'old' generation. I estimate most of us are now 30+
The new crowd I think Konami is talking about are around 14 - 25 years old.
Most of them never played on a ps2 i'm guessing. All they know is the pes and fifa games we think are crap. And if all you know is crap even crap can be wonderful.
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Yeah, and their definition of football is "Ronaldo new haircut, and Messi new boots".

Combine that with pay-to-win online gaming which is what they do, and I wonder how traditional video games (with some story or gameplay) even exist (and I am not talking about sport games).
 
Paynekiller said:
Didn't he slam PES myclub as gambling and told his subscribers to stay away from it only to then backtrack after Konami sponsored him? On the subject of backtracking Spoony and TTB who both have a vested interest in the PES/eFootball franchise are no longer critsizing the footage of efootball. What a surprise eh?
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Both those claims seem pretty odd to me. What do you mean by "sponsored"? There's not been any statement to that effect by any party, so it sounds like conjecture on your end. In which case, it can't support the conclusion you want to make of it. Incidentally, I'm not sure what you mean by backtracking here. I'm not aware of him in particular defending gambling in games. Perhaps you can point it out. It wouldn't be good if he did.

Second bit: "no longer criticizing the footage" – you mean the leaked footage that he wrote a comment about to say: won't be talking about it, as I'll have something better to talk about next week; i.e., the actual game he'll be playing? If so, that's not refraining from criticism. It's waiting to play something.

I guess we'll see from how he talks about his impressions how far the effect of being given early playtest code has influenced his ability to be objective. But I don't see the point of predicting that ahead of time. (In the past, though, I've thought Barry/PES Universe have been pretty weak when it comes to talking about playtest builds they've had early access to; it's always a worry that people don't want to criticise some party who gives them things early access, even subliminally.)

Mikhail said:
Spoony Pizzas uses his YouTube platform to both promote PES and make money from it. He monetises his videos and also gets pissy with anyone in the comments who offer the option file to someone else.

He’s out for himself, to make money and shill hard for Konami so he gets early access to stuff etc - again, this will bring in views which equals money.

PES was always about community, kit makers doing it for their love of the game, everyone helping each other find the best option files, comparing Master League journeys and…you know all of this because you’re also a lover of PES.

PES Universe don’t even have the ‘Bronze’ section on their site anymore. No free option files. You pay them or get out of town, they will talk to you like shit. I’ve witnessed it on several occasions. TTB and Spoony Pizzas can fuck off and I’ve got no problem saying it.

The biggest issue I have is the hypocrisy of it all. They complain that people download their option file for free (one guy will buy it and then upload it to his Google Drive for everyone to use) yet PES Universe pay NO royalties to any of the businesses, organisations etc for using their logos, kit designs etc. They don’t even get permission from any of the clubs or companies. Which is fine - but don’t complain when others refuse to pay you for something which has always been community driven and available for the love of football gaming, NOT profit.
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First claim: I'm not a big fan of revenue from advertising on YouTube in general. But practically all "content creators" do it, and I don't think it's worth singling out any of them in particular for it, unless the ad breaks are especially common and egregiously placed. Fwiw, that's not simply "making money from [PES]" – it's making money by playing PES and doing something with it (tips videos, reviews, master league series, whatever it is that people tune into his channel for).

Re "getting pissy" – look, it's a long debate and I don't really think the issue of paid OFs is simple and easy to break down. I think I come at it from the other side to Spoony Pizzas, but the arguments he probably believes in (probably something like: "people who put time and effort into something deserve remuneration") are at least intelligible, and don't represent some craven bastardised money-grabbing logic. If a person already thinks paid OFs are fine and piracy is bad, even though I would likely disagree (especially re piracy point), it's a natural consequence that such a person would get pissy about (in effect) piracy requests in the comments of their videos. It's not some special vice, at that point.

Re "out for himself/shill hard" – oh come on, hardly! He's regularly critical of Konami, both in terms of their marketing/approach and the gameplay of games, builds, patches, demos, etc. The cynicism here is just lazy and unwarranted.

Re PES Universe having no free files any more – didn't know that, and I don't particularly care. I've never given them a dime anyway, and I won't be.

Re "PES Universe pay NO royalties..." to companies and brands – lol what? Is this now an argument in favour of copyright bollocks? You say it's about hypocrisy, but that argument then becomes fallacious (somebody's doing X may be wrong because it's unjustified, but not because that same person elsewhere says X is wrong). It's a neither-here-nor-there point. Moreover, nobody who gave them money in exchange for an OF would for a second have thought that money from the sale goes towards remunerating companies, etc. It's just not part of the implicit contract here.

The stronger point you alluded to there is that it's wrong to sell OFs for profit, and goes against the community-driven values of OFs in the past before anybody charged anything. But that includes a premise you've assumed (that they profit, instead of putting the money into site maintenance, remunerating editors, getting designs for their "content" done, etc.). I don't really know, myself, where the money goes and how it's spent (do you?), but I can imagine it's not a lot really, and a good bulk of it goes to site maintenance.

Aside from that problem, you can bring up community-driven traditions and values, but you have to be very selective about who is part of "the community" in that case. Realistically, there are many different sets of interlocking communities that make up the PES audience, and some of those see nothing wrong at all with paying for OFs; even see it as a good thing. Besides, it's an older practice than PES Universe (didn't Daymos charge before?), and a lot of people simply see a small payment as a thank you to someone for improving their playing experience. It is not, in that case, a practice steeped in the inherently exploitative logic of capitalism, which is where I think much of the hoo-hah around this topic borrows its rhetoric from.

In other words, suppose Konami now withhold the kits from players of the game and start selling them as DLC add-ons – that would be a fundamentally different kind of charge, and one that's genuinely exploitative and worth getting up in arms about.
 
Airbag said:
It looks truly truly awful. The animations are terrible, the ball is so the rails, the way it zips around looks awful. The game has been dumbed down to a souless mobile entity so much.

I can't believe Konami are actually doing this.
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Fwiw: isn't the video being shared there as new gameplay footage actually just footage from the NFG beta we all played? The UI elements are the same.

I am still doubtful the "final" product* will be that much different to the NFGOPT we played. But in terms of judging the latest stuff we see, I don't think you can go by that clip.

*I scare-quote the word "final" because with live service bollocks, nothing is final, and quality defects are always rebranded as simply changes yet to be delivered. The rhetoric is even more foul when you consider the F2P environment, in which whenever a player brings up complaints about the quality, they are met with ripostes of "well, it's free, and changes are coming later in the roadmap". Cue: me puking in my own mouth.
 
janguv said:
Both those claims seem pretty odd to me. What do you mean by "sponsored"? There's not been any statement to that effect by any party, so it sounds like conjecture on your end. In which case, it can't support the conclusion you want to make of it. Incidentally, I'm not sure what you mean by backtracking here. I'm not aware of him in particular defending gambling in games. Perhaps you can point it out. It wouldn't be good if he did.

Second bit: "no longer criticizing the footage" – you mean the leaked footage that he wrote a comment about to say: won't be talking about it, as I'll have something better to talk about next week; i.e., the actual game he'll be playing? If so, that's not refraining from criticism. It's waiting to play something.

I guess we'll see from how he talks about his impressions how far the effect of being given early playtest code has influenced his ability to be objective. But I don't see the point of predicting that ahead of time. (In the past, though, I've thought Barry/PES Universe have been pretty weak when it comes to talking about playtest builds they've had early access to; it's always a worry that people don't want to criticise some party who gives them things early access, even subliminally.)


First claim: I'm not a big fan of revenue from advertising on YouTube in general. But practically all "content creators" do it, and I don't think it's worth singling out any of them in particular for it, unless the ad breaks are especially common and egregiously placed. Fwiw, that's not simply "making money from [PES]" – it's making money by playing PES and doing something with it (tips videos, reviews, master league series, whatever it is that people tune into his channel for).

Re "getting pissy" – look, it's a long debate and I don't really think the issue of paid OFs is simple and easy to break down. I think I come at it from the other side to Spoony Pizzas, but the arguments he probably believes in (probably something like: "people who put time and effort into something deserve remuneration") are at least intelligible, and don't represent some craven bastardised money-grabbing logic. If a person already thinks paid OFs are fine and piracy is bad, even though I would likely disagree (especially re piracy point), it's a natural consequence that such a person would get pissy about (in effect) piracy requests in the comments of their videos. It's not some special vice, at that point.

Re "out for himself/shill hard" – oh come on, hardly! He's regularly critical of Konami, both in terms of their marketing/approach and the gameplay of games, builds, patches, demos, etc. The cynicism here is just lazy and unwarranted.

Re PES Universe having no free files any more – didn't know that, and I don't particularly care. I've never given them a dime anyway, and I won't be.

Re "PES Universe pay NO royalties..." to companies and brands – lol what? Is this now an argument in favour of copyright bollocks? You say it's about hypocrisy, but that argument then becomes fallacious (somebody's doing X may be wrong because it's unjustified, but not because that same person elsewhere says X is wrong). It's a neither-here-nor-there point. Moreover, nobody who gave them money in exchange for an OF would for a second have thought that money from the sale goes towards remunerating companies, etc. It's just not part of the implicit contract here.

The stronger point you alluded to there is that it's wrong to sell OFs for profit, and goes against the community-driven values of OFs in the past before anybody charged anything. But that includes a premise you've assumed (that they profit, instead of putting the money into site maintenance, remunerating editors, getting designs for their "content" done, etc.). I don't really know, myself, where the money goes and how it's spent (do you?), but I can imagine it's not a lot really, and a good bulk of it goes to site maintenance.

Aside from that problem, you can bring up community-driven traditions and values, but you have to be very selective about who is part of "the community" in that case. Realistically, there are many different sets of interlocking communities that make up the PES audience, and some of those see nothing wrong at all with paying for OFs; even see it as a good thing. Besides, it's an older practice than PES Universe (didn't Daymos charge before?), and a lot of people simply see a small payment as a thank you to someone for improving their playing experience. It is not, in that case, a practice steeped in the inherently exploitative logic of capitalism, which is where I think much of the hoo-hah around this topic borrows its rhetoric from.

In other words, suppose Konami now withhold the kits from players of the game and start selling them as DLC add-ons – that would be a fundamentally different kind of charge, and one that's genuinely exploitative and worth getting up in arms about.
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You completely missed my point. But we’re going round in circles. PES Universe are hypocrites, basically.
 
TommyC0ckles said:
I’m not going to point fingers and lambast the model too much, but I only had one experience with the PES Universe site.

I signed up to membership the first year out of good will, never received any files by mail throughout the entire year cycle. I chased them up several times after every update to no reply both on Twitter and email and ended up getting my stuff from PES World which was of a brilliant standard and free. My opinion of PES Universe was formed from that.
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See, that's a genuine reason to take issue with them. Sounds like they were at best incompetent. (I always preferred the quality of PES World kits too btw.)
 
Mikhail said:
You completely missed my point. But we’re going round in circles. PES Universe are hypocrites, basically.
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"missed" your point lol. You made at least 6 points, to which I responded in turn.

Re hypocrisy – I highlighted that. I think it's a weak argument. If what they do is wrong, it's because it's wrong, not because it's hypocritical. People can, and do, do right or permissible things all the time, while disavowing those things. Hypocrisy is not a sign of wrongness, just inconsistency.

So the point about paid OFs being wrong can't devolve to a point about hypocrisy. For the argument to have any merit, it has to be about other things – like an issue with profit, exploitation, community values, fraud, and so on.
 
janguv said:
"missed" your point lol. You made at least 6 points, to which I responded in turn.

Re hypocrisy – I highlighted that. I think it's a weak argument. If what they do is wrong, it's because it's wrong, not because it's hypocritical. People can, and do, do right or permissible things all the time, while disavowing those things. Hypocrisy is not a sign of wrongness, just inconsistency.

So the point about paid OFs being wrong can't devolve to a point about hypocrisy. For the argument to have any merit, it has to be about other things – like an issue with profit, exploitation, community values, fraud, and so on.
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You’re being argumentative for the sake of it now.

I don’t like Spoony Pizzas and TTB, your replies don’t change that - and many other people feel the same.
 
Mikhail said:
You’re being argumentative for the sake of it now.

I don’t like Spoony Pizzas and TTB, your replies don’t change that - and many other people feel the same.
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It's fine to dislike them, of course. Or to dislike PES Universe on grounds of apparent hypocrisy.

But when you pierce beneath and ask for reasons as to why people dislike paid OFs or particular YouTubers, then you get a pile of reasons like:
  • They're a shill/are sponsored by Konami
  • They defend gambling in games
  • They make profit from exploiting people
  • They encourage people to buy OFs (and that's always wrong)
  • They discourage people from pirating OFs
  • And so on...
I think several of those claims are dodgy, and if people are going to make them, then there's nothing wrong with pointing out why they seem dodgy or when employed in arguments have holes in them.

Tomorrow/Weds we'll find out what those with early access to the latest build think about the gameplay. If any of them are positive, the responses will be plentiful and scathing: they're shills, they are trying to get more goodies from Konami, etc. Mark my words, that will be the default response from many on here.

And yet other explanations will be available and probably make more sense – e.g. that they value some aspects of gameplay that most people here don't, or that they don't sufficiently weight the concerns people have here in what makes a good football game. Or that they have indeed held back on criticism, but not out of a greedy and conscious desire not to bite the hand that feeds them, but as a very common subconscious and human response to those that give you some privilege or other. Or because the fanfare and excitement of playing something early, let alone playing something new, influences how you experience something, and anyway it often takes weeks to really expose all the problems with something.

Or even still, those same people getting derided here might yet be critical of the game, and it will escape comment by those formerly labelling them shills and crooks.
 
janguv said:
Both those claims seem pretty odd to me. What do you mean by "sponsored"? There's not been any statement to that effect by any party, so it sounds like conjecture on your end. In which case, it can't support the conclusion you want to make of it. Incidentally, I'm not sure what you mean by backtracking here. I'm not aware of him in particular defending gambling in games. Perhaps you can point it out. It wouldn't be good if he did.
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I thought it was common knowledge that he was sponsored to promote PES? Don't just take my word for it, Janguv.
 

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Paynekiller said:
I thought it was common knowledge that he was sponsored to promote PES? Don't just take my word for it, Janguv.
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Interesting. Thanks for the share. I doubt that's any kind of formal sponsorship – didn't see any notice about that from anybody? If the best indication is that exchange, it's probably a slightly awkwardly put way of referring to this tweet (also 4 months back):

Screenshot 2021-09-13 at 15.52.09.png

...And that tweet, while cringe as fuck, is not sponsorship.

He's certainly slated the beta gameplay since then, which would be a very strange thing to do if there was actually some sponsorship partnership. I think the above is much more likely what's being referred to.
 
Chilleverest said:
Yeah dont know what the point is, guy just needs to stop, its just sad at this point.
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The point is quite clear. I think what's really sad is when people throw around accusations of shilling or being on the take in some way, normally without evidence, the moment any YouTuber of note in the broader PES ecosystem doesn't slate the game.

As I said above, this will happen tomorrow/Weds, if the feedback from anyone who's played it is positive. It's sad and predictable. I am hoping for critical and objective feedback myself. If I don't see it, there could be many reasons; "shilling" won't be the reason I'll jump to.
 
Dillion said:
Yes most of the crowd who enjoyed pes from the beginning are now 'old' generation. I estimate most of us are now 30+
The new crowd I think Konami is talking about are around 14 - 25 years old.
Most of them never played on a ps2 i'm guessing. All they know is the pes and fifa games we think are crap. And if all you know is crap even crap can be wonderful.
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nah, I'm 22 and old enough to play the PS2 era pes and fifa games [ps1 era fifa games as well].

Even for "young" people's standards, PES 22 I mean eFootball 22 looks like dogshit.
 
janguv said:
The point is quite clear. I think what's really sad is when people throw around accusations of shilling or being on the take in some way, normally without evidence, the moment any YouTuber of note in the broader PES ecosystem doesn't slate the game.

As I said above, this will happen tomorrow/Weds, if the feedback from anyone who's played it is positive. It's sad and predictable. I am hoping for critical and objective feedback myself. If I don't see it, there could be many reasons; "shilling" won't be the reason I'll jump to.
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I don't think it's shilling in a literal way, but instead it's a subjective favoritism what those guys do, and their opinion is fake towards what should be pointed out and criticize when we are talking especially about the shady part on which this game it's developed and presented. It's like your posible friend invites you to try his product, you do, and you know it's shit, but he invites you to eat for free or gives you a small attention behind the scene to promote his product as good to influence costumers, like a win win situation. People could be bribed, and by that doesn't need to be 100 percent financial, could be everything considered as an advantage, even fame or an early access to something that could influence indirectly your bias towards one subjective...
 
janguv said:
Interesting. Thanks for the share. I doubt that's any kind of formal sponsorship – didn't see any notice about that from anybody? If the best indication is that exchange, it's probably a slightly awkwardly put way of referring to this tweet (also 4 months back):

View attachment 120552

...And that tweet, while cringe as fuck, is not sponsorship.

He's certainly slated the beta gameplay since then, which would be a very strange thing to do if there was actually some sponsorship partnership. I think the above is much more likely what's being referred to.
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@Paynekiller – I owe you an apology. I managed to search around and find the video from which your screenshot is taken:

I do think that's a formal sponsorship deal. And I think it's a massive shame. To refer to that as a "career highlight" is all kinds of stupid. It definitely brings into question his feedback subsequent to that deal, even if the sponsorship arrangement is for particular videos.

It will be interesting to see how critical he is this week, regardless. Perhaps even more interesting, knowing that.
 
etb10dmk said:
I don't think it's shilling in a literal way, but instead it's a subjective favoritism what those guys do, and their opinion is fake towards what should be pointed out and criticize when we are talking especially about the shady part on which this game it's developed and presented. It's like your posible friend invites you to try his product, you do, and you know it's shit, but he invites you to eat for free or gives you a small attention behind the scene to promote his product as good to influence costumers, like a win win situation. People could be bribed, and by that doesn't need to be 100 percent financial, could be everything considered as an advantage, even fame or an early access to something that could influence indirectly your bias towards one subjective...
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Yeah I think in general that's how people get sweetened and end up having bias that they sometimes aren't even aware of themselves. The way you're talking about it here makes more sense to me.
 
janguv said:
It will be interesting to see how critical he is this week, regardless. Perhaps even more interesting, knowing that.
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I don’t think even Spoony Pizza will force himself to pretend eFootball is any good. Unless it IS actually a fine game (which it won’t be).

IF eFootball is actually going to be a very good football game, it will leave egg on a lot of our faces (especially mine) and will be the biggest trolling manoeuvre from Konami to date. A tiny part of me thinks that they have something up their sleeve.
 
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