Chelsea Thread

[beachryan]

Good post - I totally agree on the unpredictability of leagues making them fun. I've just moved to the US and am loving the sports here. We never know who is going to win NFL matchups each week (and almost every game is close!), baseball playoffs are now between the 'powerhouses' Detroit and St. Louis/San Francisco. It's great. That's what the prem should be.

I'm obviously biased with regards to Manchester United, as I grew up following them, but I'm not sure they've ever 'done a La Liga' and taken more than their fair share of TV revenue. I actually believe the premier league has a pretty good allocation of TV money - though I'd like to see it made progressive (bottom teams get the most). All United did was whore itself out to the rest of the world and brought home the commercial bacon, so to speak. Liverpool really should have done this better - they had the history, the glamour and the name - but didn't manage it.

For me as a fan of the sport, however, I'd gladly give up 10 of our titles to have a balanced, unpredictable premier league.

It'll be interseting with regards to the russian leagues. It's a harder product to sell to the world and players, so thatll be challenging. I think it's more likely the uber-rich will keep buying up clubs in popular leagues, and distorting them that way, rather than trying to move teams to their own backyards.

I just wish I could get hte Championship on tv over here - that's always an amazing league.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Gerd that day will never happen, Real Madrid and Barcelona will never be underdogs, they'll both continue to remain the top two, Russia might become an equal to the Premier League in 20 years but I don't think much can stop the Spanish two from being top dogs, their appeal is too big.

 

[gerd]

Well younggun ,as i see it, currently Real Madrid and Barcelona are digging their own grave. In Spain the there is a colossal difference between the TV-money both giants get and the money the other teams get.
In the long run, this will kill La Liga and it will also hurt both giant clubs. I know Sevilla's president is leading something of a rebellion against what is happening. What i would do is the following: i would forfeit all the away matches against both big clubs. This would hurt them enormously. Of course in order to do that there has to be solidarity, and there is no solidarity in football. Ever year in the beginning of the season we see encouraging signs from other teams: last year Levante where top of the table in the beginning of the season and this year Atletico are joint leaders. The problem is that those teams never last (and i would love to see Atletico win it, but they simply haven't got the slightest chance to do so, oh and most of all i want Falcao to stay with Atletico, let there be no doubt about that).

About England: i agree with beach's idea to give bottom clubs most of the television money and i think United are not to blame about the way the division is now. If i remember well that was handled by David Dein and someone from the Everton board...at the time Everton the EPL started Everton was still among the big clubs...

 

[Topaz]

Why RDM playing Torres? He's a shit.

 

[Benni]

he's not 'shit' just clearly out of form and has been for long time

 

[Godotelli]

Giving the biggest prize money to the lowest teams is insane. You're rewarding and encouraging failure. It's hard to think of a new rule which would do more harm to the game.

With regards Russians overtaking Real and Barca etc.
The only way such a thing could ever happen is if the nation of Spain suffered a huge collapse of some kind.

 

[beachryan]

Giving the biggest prize money to the lowest teams is insane. You're rewarding and encouraging failure. It's hard to think of a new rule which would do more harm to the game.

With regards Russians overtaking Real and Barca etc.
The only way such a thing could ever happen is if the nation of Spain suffered a huge collapse of some kind.

Yes. So crazy that baseball, American Football and Hockey do it in the US.

You're not rewarding failure. You're giving teams at the bottom of the league the means to try and draw themselves up towards the top of the league.

Put it another way. Without re-distributing funds into the game, how would City have gone from relegation scraps to mid-table, to Europe, to top 4 to the title? Should the only answer be the sugar daddy lottery?

 

[gerd]

Giving the biggest prize money to the lowest teams is insane. You're rewarding and encouraging failure. It's hard to think of a new rule which would do more harm to the game.

With regards Russians overtaking Real and Barca etc.
The only way such a thing could ever happen is if the nation of Spain suffered a huge collapse of some kind.

What a reaction..."failure" for an EPL team...every single team in the EPL is far from failure.
How were you thinking about Man City in the third division? You weren't too bothered because at the time you supported United?

And who ever was speaking here about Russians taking over Real Madrid and Barcelona?

Speaking about failure: right when i'm writing this Moisander scores....failure.... Will City get through the group stage? Massive failure???

Sorry for the schadenfreude, it might only last a couple of minutes, but god i'm enjoying it...

 

[Godotelli]

What a reaction..."failure" for an EPL team...every single team in the EPL is far from failure.

Err... what?

How were you thinking about Man City in the third division? You weren't too bothered because at the time you supported United?

Didn't take long for the City trolling to kickoff.

And who ever was speaking here about Russians taking over Real Madrid and Barcelona?

Someone in this thread.

You, it would seem.

Concerning te future: Russian clubs will dominate European football until the richest Asian clubs will participate in the CL and then the CL will be won by Chinese, Russian and Gulf teams. Every now and then underdogs like Real Madrid, Barcelona and the odd English team will win it, but they will immediately loose all their best players...

Speaking about failure: right when i'm writing this Moisander scores....failure.... Will City get through the group stage? Massive failure???

Sorry for the schadenfreude, it might only last a couple of minutes, but god i'm enjoying it...

Yes, failing to keep the opposition from getting the ball over your goalline is ...a failure. (as is not comprehending the words you read)

When it becomes more advantageous for a club to lose a game than it is for them to win a game, that is when football truly is dead.

 

[gerd]

Ok, i will do you the courtesy to reply to your post.

1. In that quote i never said that the Russians will take over Barcelona and Real Madrid. I was talking about them as underdogs. I'm not a native spreaker so i'm not 100% sure but to my knowledge i never said what you think i said. To be 100% sure of what i say is accurate, we might continue our conversation in my native language which is Dutch. I suppose your Dutch is much better than my English?

2. I never intended to "troll" City, my schadenfreude/gloating was directed at you personally, not your club. I rather like City.

3. Schadenfreude or gloating is not a nice thing to do. I'm well awear of this. But then you deserved it for one of the most shortsighted posts i've read on this forum. It's your right to have your own opinion, but IMO sports is not only about winning, it's about winning with class and not being arrogant about it. I can't say that City as a club come over as arrogant, but you could show a litle bit of respect and fair-play. Calling other, lesser clubs failures is classless and dumb. Of course there are clubs who are underachieving for years now (like my favourite club, Spurs, that is even what attracts me to them), but others are punching above their weight year after year. I'm talking about clubs like Wigan Athletic, Swansea, Fulham, WBA and others like Everton. Give them the financial backing of Man City and they are equally succesfull.

4. Like beach pointed out, it seems you have forgotten that basically Man City were also massive under achievers until the Arab Santa Claus' arrival. The fact that man City is where it is now is purely coïncidental, it has nothing to do with merits of the club. If Mansour would have been attracted to Wigan Athletic, Wigan would now be champions...So maybe the fans of Man City have even more reason to be a litle bit modest.

5. With your failure-reaction about the division of money you show a lack of understanding of the basics of sports and certainly of the succes of football. Why do you think football is (arguably) the most popular game in the world? Because in football the probability that the underdog can win is rather big. if you compare that to sportsd like athletics or cycling, the difference is huge. In those sports the best competer (or the best doped athlete) will win with 9/10 ratio. What has happened the last 20 years (with the division of the television moeny and also with the sugar daddies) is that bigger clubs have shaped conditions where it becomes more and more difficult to win for the underdogs. Football is undermining the very real reason of it's success. People here tend to laugh with Scottish league where only two clubs had a realistic chance to win. Now one of both has gone temporarily, do you think this is good for Scottish football? Look at their national team. Of course you will point out Spain, twice world champions and Eupean champions...That is an undeniable fact, but believe me in the long term Spanish football will suffer from the duopoly.

6. If you feel i've treated with disrespect, you're right. That wasn't nice, but i treated you in exactly the same way you treated me after our discussion about GK's and Joe Hart. It wouldn't be the first time that i'm totally wrong about something and i really don't care. I just didn't like the way you treated me during that discussion. I deleted my first reply because i don't want to start a stupid internet feud, but i decided to treat you in a similar way when the first occasion presented itself. We are even now, no hard feelings and i hope you can enjoy your football with City and that they might play the same attractive football that made them the deserved champions last season. Rant over.


Ps: you might start to change your signature...

 

[Benni]

How were you thinking about Man City in the third division? You weren't too bothered because at the time you supported United?

 

[Godotelli]

Ok, i will do you the courtesy to reply to your post.

1. In that quote i never said that the Russians will take over Barcelona and Real Madrid. I was talking about them as underdogs. I'm not a native spreaker so i'm not 100% sure but to my knowledge i never said what you think i said. To be 100% sure of what i say is accurate, we might continue our conversation in my native language which is Dutch. I suppose your Dutch is much better than my English?

2. I never intended to "troll" City, my schadenfreude/gloating was directed at you personally, not your club. I rather like City.

3. Schadenfreude or gloating is not a nice thing to do. I'm well awear of this. But then you deserved it for one of the most shortsighted posts i've read on this forum. It's your right to have your own opinion, but IMO sports is not only about winning, it's about winning with class and not being arrogant about it. I can't say that City as a club come over as arrogant, but you could show a litle bit of respect and fair-play. Calling other, lesser clubs failures is classless and dumb. Of course there are clubs who are underachieving for years now (like my favourite club, Spurs, that is even what attracts me to them), but others are punching above their weight year after year. I'm talking about clubs like Wigan Athletic, Swansea, Fulham, WBA and others like Everton. Give them the financial backing of Man City and they are equally succesfull.

4. Like beach pointed out, it seems you have forgotten that basically Man City were also massive under achievers until the Arab Santa Claus' arrival. The fact that man City is where it is now is purely coïncidental, it has nothing to do with merits of the club. If Mansour would have been attracted to Wigan Athletic, Wigan would now be champions...So maybe the fans of Man City have even more reason to be a litle bit modest.

5. With your failure-reaction about the division of money you show a lack of understanding of the basics of sports and certainly of the succes of football. Why do you think football is (arguably) the most popular game in the world? Because in football the probability that the underdog can win is rather big. if you compare that to sportsd like athletics or cycling, the difference is huge. In those sports the best competer (or the best doped athlete) will win with 9/10 ratio. What has happened the last 20 years (with the division of the television moeny and also with the sugar daddies) is that bigger clubs have shaped conditions where it becomes more and more difficult to win for the underdogs. Football is undermining the very real reason of it's success. People here tend to laugh with Scottish league where only two clubs had a realistic chance to win. Now one of both has gone temporarily, do you think this is good for Scottish football? Look at their national team. Of course you will point out Spain, twice world champions and Eupean champions...That is an undeniable fact, but believe me in the long term Spanish football will suffer from the duopoly.

6. If you feel i've treated with disrespect, you're right. That wasn't nice, but i treated you in exactly the same way you treated me after our discussion about GK's and Joe Hart. It wouldn't be the first time that i'm totally wrong about something and i really don't care. I just didn't like the way you treated me during that discussion. I deleted my first reply because i don't want to start a stupid internet feud, but i decided to treat you in a similar way when the first occasion presented itself. We are even now, no hard feelings and i hope you can enjoy your football with City and that they might play the same attractive football that made them the deserved champions last season. Rant over.


Ps: you might start to change your signature...

I could reply to each of your points here but there's no point since your rants directed towards me are a result of you misunderstanding my initial point with regards prize money.

With regards the Russians and Barca/Real, I was not talking of rich Russians taking control of Barca/Real. I was referring to Russian teams overtaking Barca/Real in footballing terms.

 

[gerd]

I can't see how i could misunderstood your initial point about prize moeny (and IMO Beach meant television money), you were talking about encouraging failure and i'm not the only one who understood that the same way, every other reaction clearly understood it the same way.

With regards to Russians and the Spanish teams, i was wrong, i did misunderstand you and i'm sorry for the confusion. IMO it is very likely that Russian teams will become better than Real and Barcelona...

What i didn't like about your post about "failure" is the fact that basically once Man City went from a poor underachieving club to a mega rich succesfully club, you want to close the door for other clubs. Man City already have an unfair advantage (which is a reaction to other unfair advantages and which i therefore understand and don't condemn), but it seems you would want to keep the (relatvely) poor clubs poor...that is even more unfair.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

With regards Russians overtaking Real and Barca etc.
The only way such a thing could ever happen is if the nation of Spain suffered a huge collapse of some kind.

Well, economically, that is a possibility. Certainly Spain's national debt is of a worryingly high level. If the Northern European tax-payers get disgruntled with the prospect of bailing out the weak economies then the Euro currency could collapse and Spain would be in big, big trouble.

 

[Godotelli]

I can't see how i could misunderstood your initial point about prize moeny (and IMO Beach meant television money), you were talking about encouraging failure and i'm not the only one who understood that the same way, every other reaction clearly understood it the same way.

With regards to Russians and the Spanish teams, i was wrong, i did misunderstand you and i'm sorry for the confusion. IMO it is very likely that Russian teams will become better than Real and Barcelona...

What i didn't like about your post about "failure" is the fact that basically once Man City went from a poor underachieving club to a mega rich succesfully club, you want to close the door for other clubs. Man City already have an unfair advantage (which is a reaction to other unfair advantages and which i therefore understand and don't condemn), but it seems you would want to keep the (relatvely) poor clubs poor...that is even more unfair.

It looks pretty clear that you took offense to me saying that lower finishing teams are failures.
That was not my point and I think that was blatant.

This has nothing at all to do with City or my support of them. As I said, if you receive more money the lower you finish then the game is fucked. The trust in a match is severely undermined.

'If we lose this game then we will gain Xmillion pounds which we can use to give our best player the contract he wants as well as sign Eidur Gudfootballer'

Perhaps the game would be better served if money was divided up differently but it certainly shouldn't be divided up 'progressively'

 

[gerd]

'If we lose this game then we will gain Xmillion pounds which we can use to give our best player the contract he wants as well as sign Eidur Gudfootballer'

You are overestimating that effect. Football players want to win and managers too...

 

[bebo]

Mata- sublime player! PFA material

 

[gerd]

What shocking display from the ref...i'm not sure about the first red card (could have been a red card, but hard to see what happened). For the sake of argument: it was a red card.

But Torres definitely didn't dive and Chicarito's goal was off-side...Poor Chelsea. Wasn't it a Man Utd fan who claimed Chelsea always was advantaged by the refs...well not today.

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

I think Chelsea can take a lot of positives from the match. They had a horrendous first 15 mins but that may be due to playing a defensive line that was less tried and tested. Once they got into their stride the midfield trio of Oscar, Mata and Hazard looked superb and were very hard to deal with. Ramirez was also very good at shutting down the opposition. Even with only 8 outfield players, and really pressing for a third goal they didn't look that exposed at the back. They could really do with a world class striker though as Torres doesn't look quite the level he was 3-4 years ago.

For me this game was a bit like Man City last year losing 3-2 at home to Man Utd in the cup they were down to 10 men but the performance shown by the team with less players was almost worth as much as a win in terms of morale

 

[beachryan]

When Chelsea eventually woke up they were really very good. That triumvirate of sheer class with Ramires and Mikel providing legs is an immense midfield. I'm actually excited to see it against top European competition. Once Chelsea got going United couldn't handle it - which is hardly surprising given the inexplicable lack of midfield class from United.

At 2-2 we had a really good match ahead, but if we're objective then Ivanovic had to go. And credit to Fergie, that red card/ scoring chance happened completely down to his counter-attack tactics. Had Young not been taken out he would have likely scored, but I could easily have seen Chelsea come back again.

Torres sending off was just wrong, I don't think a single United fan would deny that. United fan's don't like Clattenburg either. He's a bit of a peacock on the middle. On Torres - he was generally poor imo, and should have been sent off for studding Cleverley at chest height. How is that not a red, but being 3 inches off the ground with studs up is? Very strange.

And Hernadez's goal was a very hard call, especially as Cahill fell over towards goal as he shot. So when the linesman's eyes went from Rafael's shot to Hernandez, I can totally see how it looked onside. Certainly not a ridiculous call in any way.

Anyway, not only is it early in the season, but lest we forget Chelsea are still top of the league. And as that 3 gain more understanding they're only going to improve.

And who knows, maybe Santa Abramovich will give you another £50m to buy a class forward, then you'll be all set.

 

[gerd]

IMO Torres is the weak link in that Chelsea team.
Ramirez is immense, but IMO they could another player instead of Mikel (what about Auriol Romeu and i don't understand why Meireles was transferred).

Clattenburg robbed us of a fantastic second half, no matter who would have won...

 

[beachryan]

Interesting, obviously hard to comment until the full report comes out, but apparently the two 'inapppropriate' comments from Clattenburg were:

1. He called Mata a 'Spanish tw*t'
2. He called Mikel a 'monkey'

Obviously the latter is far more serious than the former. For example, calling Wayne Rooney an English tw*t is not only kinda true but not really that offensive (though I don't believe a ref should say it, despite undoubtedly him being called the same by the players).

However, what puzzles me is that neither Mata nor Mikel have made these claims. They've been made by David Luiz and Ramires. I admit to never having heard Ramires speak English,but I know David Luiz's is shaky at absolute best.

I'm also leaning towards Occam's razor here. Clattenberg is a high-profile English referee. I cannot for a moment imagine that he'd choose this moment to say something like Monkey towards a black player. If true, he'll be rightly kicked out of the sport. But I can't help but feel this feels like Anders Frisk/ Graham Poll accusations.

 

[Shazam!]

I'm also leaning towards Occam's razor here. Clattenberg is a high-profile English referee. I cannot for a moment imagine that he'd choose this moment to say something like Monkey towards a black player. If true, he'll be rightly kicked out of the sport. But I can't help but feel this feels like Anders Frisk/ Graham Poll accusations.

Is Clattenberg a Northerner? Maybe he called him a cheeky monkey ; )

 

[beachryan]

Is Clattenberg a Northerner? Maybe he called him a cheeky monkey ; )

That would be a really interesting case. But again, surely Clattenberg is not that stupid?

What will really piss me off is if it turns out this is all about being called a 'tw*t'. Because I guarantee that Clattenberg has never refereed a match where he hasn't been called worse, but now - because of two decisions he made - Chelsea are suddenly offended? That would seriously do my head in.

Also, if the reports are true that Mikel threatened to break Clattenberg's legs while confronting him in the referee's changing room - he should get a very, very long suspension.

 

[gerd]

I agree with you about Mikel, he's an idiot, your typical professional football player.

About twatgate: it's not the end of the world, but imo it is an offense for a ref. Refs should be above all this. God knows how they do it (i would be the worst ref ever), but 99% of the refs manage it. So Clattenburg should do the same...

A ref like him should have a feeling for the match...you can't really blame him for the mistakes (it happens to everyone, a very bad day at the office) but in a match like that, he should try to calm players. Calling somebody a Spanish twat is not in order to calm players. That is incompetence.

 

[beachryan]

Just reading up on the aftermath of the Chelsea accusations - apparently the media/fans are camped outside Clattenberg's house, and are disturbing him all day - which is peachy as he has a baby to take care of.

Further, there is now some back-tracking from Chelsea, apparently they haven't even yet decided to pursue the allegations. If they step down, I will be utterly disgusted at the club. This will not convince the idiot fans. It will not convince the media. It will have ruined Clattenberg's career - and he's only 37. Because Chelsea are a club that in the past has been shown - and admitted - to lying about this type of thing before (see Terry v. Poll) and also were just found to have materially doctored the evidence (Cole and Terry's testimony in the Terry v Anton case).

If it comes out that they've made this up, I believe that they HAVE to be punished.

 

[gerd]

Beach, there is a saying in Dutch that translates as: only idiots nver change their mind.
That they made the allegations would then be a mistake, but backtracking (if done properly, with an apology) would be a very nice and honest gesture.
Let's not judge too early in matters like this (remember all the fuss about Suarez/Evra, everybody judged too soon, me included).

 

[Topaz]

Chelsea sinked United. That's what happens without referee.

 

[Benni]

Chelsea sinked United. That's what happens without referee.

there wasnt a referee for the league cup game? Interesting, I wonder if the FA will experiment on this more.

 

[gerd]

Chelsea sinked United. That's what happens without referee.

You tend to forget that Chelsea gave United a 0-2 lead by giving awau two very cheap goals... Clattenburg didn't exactly help, but IMO Chelsea's defense is as much to blame as the ref. Saying that United won because of Clattenburg is self-delusion.