Arsenal Thread

Clockender said:
Oh dear, more generalisation without any actual facts. Gerrard has played virtually every game this season so how do you work that out?
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Gerrard wasn't the reason we have kept clean sheets for one - which has been a problem for us before ;)

Gerrard has been the driving force - when you have a player of that calibre, you have to place some reliance on him. But some of our play lately has not involved Gerrard as the fulcrum - that is not to say that we will play brilliantly without him....just that we are starting to play more effectively as a team :)
 
ninjabreakz said:
Every team has their talisman - ours is Rooney, Arsenal's is Henry and Chelsea's is Lampard and Gerrard at L'pool. BUT:

Without Rooney we can still turn out performances against the best of teams. Chelsea will do so withough Lampard. A year ago L'pool couldn't even score without Gerrard let alone win but have turned the tables. But all 3 teams have a plan B. Arsenal without Henry? Not the same team, they don't even look top 6 team in my opinion. He adds that extra dimension that Arsenal need - because the way they play their game. Wenger has never had a Plan B, so when Arsenal go 1-0 down without Henry, Plan A is all they have and without the Frenchman it doesn't happen - WITH him on the pitch you see the way he drops back and fills in passes or runs at the defence, or simply shoots. No other player at Arsenal does this.
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In general, I agree with you. Arsenal do rely a lot on Henry, probably more than is healthy.

But the performances of Van Persie, Hleb, Adebayor and particularly Fabregas shows that the much heralded plan B is at least on the way.
 
You must be talking out of your mouth, RuneEdge......Like you always do. Arsenal has played many games without Henry and still performed creditably. Robin van Persie played in his stead exceptionally last year, and I remember one FA Cup Final, mmmm when was that? Oh last year and Im sure u remember what happened. People dont realise that Arsenal have always had a large pie of midfield scoring. Henry seems to be Arsenals only dangerous player this term only because, aside fro RVP's injuries, the entire framework of the team has changed to the point where midfielders like Pires, Reyes, Ljungberg, Fabregas have not been afforded scoring oportunities simply because of the injures at the back. With a replaced defence lacking the likes of Ash Cole, Campbell, Lauren, Cygan (ok, ok), the onus fell on the entire team to not be so attack-minded. That is why Arsenal still have one of the meanest defences in the league; third behind Chelsea(19), Liverpool(22), Arsenal(23). ManU and the Scum are tied with 29 goals conceded. That is also why Henry is even more involved than ever beofre. With mos of the midfielders defensively involved he needs to play from deep in order to spring quicker attacks (admittedly it took him a while to realise this). Pires was third in the league in scoring last season with 14 goals, and Freddie Ljungberg is usually a double digit scorer. He's been knackered most of the season, Reyes has been preferred to Pires for defesive reasons this term. Van Persie is as dangerous as Rooney and will surely score as many goals if he played as many games as Rooney did. Infact so would Adebayor (3 goals in 7).

To sum up the argument: aside from this season where emergency measueres have had to be put in place, Arsenal usually score the most goals, with Henry being the topscorer in the team and oftentimes in the league. If there were no other 'dangerous players' in the team we would not have been as successful as we have been.

Every team plays within a system, and just as we moved away from a system where we relied on Vieira, we can easily move away from a system that seemingly relies on Henry, Just as with time ManU moved away from Roy Keane's influence. With time everyone realises that Fabregas within aparticular system can replace Vieira and his system. Its simply a matter of necessity and choice.
 
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Anyway, I said it before and I'll say it again: Arsenal were fantastic last night. Electric night at Highbury.
 
Clockender said:
Oh dear, more generalisation without any actual facts. Gerrard has played virtually every game this season so how do you work that out?
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Which is why I said they are STARTING to show they can play without Gerrard.
 
lucasetor said:
You must be talking out of your mouth, RuneEdge......Like you always do. Arsenal has played many games without Henry and still performed creditably. Robin van Persie played in his stead exceptionally last year, and I remember one FA Cup Final, mmmm when was that? Oh last year and Im sure u remember what happened. People dont realise that Arsenal have always had a large pie of midfield scoring. Henry seems to be Arsenals only dangerous player this term only because, aside fro RVP's injuries, the entire framework of the team has changed to the point where midfielders like Pires, Reyes, Ljungberg, Fabregas have not been afforded scoring oportunities simply because of the injures at the back. With a replaced defence lacking the likes of Ash Cole, Campbell, Lauren, Cygan (ok, ok), the onus fell on the entire team to not be so attack-minded. That is why Arsenal still have one of the meanest defences in the league; third behind Chelsea(19), Liverpool(22), Arsenal(23). ManU and the Scum are tied with 29 goals conceded. That is also why Henry is even more involved than ever beofre. With mos of the midfielders defensively involved he needs to play from deep in order to spring quicker attacks (admittedly it took him a while to realise this). Pires was third in the league in scoring last season with 14 goals, and Freddie Ljungberg is usually a double digit scorer. He's been knackered most of the season, Reyes has been preferred to Pires for defesive reasons this term. Van Persie is as dangerous as Rooney and will surely score as many goals if he played as many games as Rooney did. Infact so would Adebayor (3 goals in 7).

To sum up the argument: aside from this season where emergency measueres have had to be put in place, Arsenal usually score the most goals, with Henry being the topscorer in the team and oftentimes in the league. If there were no other 'dangerous players' in the team we would not have been as successful as we have been.

Every team plays within a system, and just as we moved away from a system where we relied on Vieira, we can easily move away from a system that seemingly relies on Henry, Just as with time ManU moved away from Roy Keane's influence. With time everyone realises that Fabregas within aparticular system can replace Vieira and his system. Its simply a matter of necessity and choice.
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Talking out of my mouth? Unless you know any other ways, thats the only method we all use. And there are many people that agree that you arent the same team without any one of your key players. All your points were kinda dumb.
Firstly, why bring up the FA Cup final in a debate about performances? Its pretty obvious which team put on the better performance and it wasnt the team that won.
Secondly, you blame the reason why Henry is the only dangerous player on the amount of injuries you have or how the shape of the team has changed. Well NEWS FLASH, no one cares about your excuses.
Thirdly, dont even try to compare Van Persie or even Adebayor to Rooney. Thats just dumb.
And finally, all your points talk about LAST season. Last season you were a different team. If we went back in time, we wouldnt be having this discussion cuz you obviously had a better season than us and even looked like a title contender for most of the season. Things are different now. Players are about to leave the team, some are getting older, the replacements are just raw talent but dont have the experience or maturity (like Rooney for example) that the real top players do. The only man that keeps this whole team together like the skeleton of the body, is Henry.

To sum it up. A lot of teams are transitioning at the moment. Chelsea have almost reached greatness. But they still lack that target man who can terrify the opposition. Liverpool are still transitioning and are slowly becoming a better team. Man Utd have a few holes in their squad that need fixing.
But it seems that Arsenal are transitioning a lot later than the rest. The other teams kinda feel they're nearly there but at Arsenal, you look at all the young players and think this is just the begining for them. They still have a much longer way to go before reaching the point they were at a couple of seasons ago.
Will they make it? That remains to be seen but at the moment, they still rely on individuals to win them their games.
 
RuneEdge said:
Talking out of my mouth? Unless you know any other ways, thats the only method we all use. And there are many people that agree that you arent the same team without any one of your key players. All your points were kinda dumb.
Firstly, why bring up the FA Cup final in a debate about performances? Its pretty obvious which team put on the better performance and it wasnt the team that won.
Secondly, you blame the reason why Henry is the only dangerous player on the amount of injuries you have or how the shape of the team has changed. Well NEWS FLASH, no one cares about your excuses.
Thirdly, dont even try to compare Van Persie or even Adebayor to Rooney. Thats just dumb.
And finally, all your points talk about LAST season. Last season you were a different team. If we went back in time, we wouldnt be having this discussion cuz you obviously had a better season than us and even looked like a title contender for most of the season. Things are different now. Players are about to leave the team, some are getting older, the replacements are just raw talent but dont have the experience or maturity (like Rooney for example) that the real top players do. The only man that keeps this whole team together like the skeleton of the body, is Henry.

To sum it up. A lot of teams are transitioning at the moment. Chelsea have almost reached greatness. But they still lack that target man who can terrify the opposition. Liverpool are still transitioning and are slowly becoming a better team. Man Utd have a few holes in their squad that need fixing.
But it seems that Arsenal are transitioning a lot later than the rest. The other teams kinda feel they're nearly there but at Arsenal, you look at all the young players and think this is just the begining for them. They still have a much longer way to go before reaching the point they were at a couple of seasons ago.
Will they make it? That remains to be seen but at the moment, they still rely on individuals to win them their games.
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What a complete load of shite. We really on individuals to win game's? What about last night? And if this is just the beginning of this side then you should be worried, we are solid in defence and still have qualities going forward. We beat arguably one of the best and most efficient teams around last night, and made mince meat of them in the process.

I think we are beginning to show some of the ambition that Thierry was asking for, so I'm more confident that he will sign now. We look commited as a team, and hungry to prove ourselves.
 
So now you make your judgements based on one game? :roll:

Heres an example of what I'm talking about.
http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=actimTop100
Check out the Actim Player Rankings (if you have in doubts in them, read the faqs) for this season. The highest Arsenal player is Henry at 4th and you dont see another player until Fabregas who's in at 27. But if you look between that, Chelsea, Man Utd and Liverpool all have many players who are in the top 30. The next player after Fabregas is in at number 49. See the difference in the quality of your players?
This is because the responsibilty in the other teams that I mentioned are shared more between their players compared to how its shared around at Arsenal.
 
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Why the hell should I not compare Van Persie to Rooney. Goals per game wise he is equally effective. I dont care if Rooney's a better player. Van Persie is equally dangerous because he will bang in as many as Rooney would in equally given time. As far as I am concerned Rooney is a better player than most people who finish above him in the scoring charts, but they are ultimately more dangerous than him.

Dont give me all that wash water nonsense about ManU performing better in the FA Cup. Plus, why shouldn't I bring it up. It was simply an example of a game where Henry didn't play, in a big game, and yet we WON. WON, I said not outplayed. Outplaying doesn't win medals, winning does. Wins merit points and points.........Glory.

Of course you would consider my arguments as excuses but they are not. What am I making excuses for? Nothing. I am, infact boasting about the fact that inspite of our employment of a makeshift defense we are the third best team in terms of defence.

You imply that CHelsea, ManUtd and Liverpool are in transition: To sum it up. A lot of teams are transitioning at the moment.

:::Chelsea have almost reached greatness. But they still lack that target man who can terrify the opposition. Liverpool are still transitioning and are slowly becoming a better team. Man Utd have a few holes in their squad that need fixing.:::

It is statements like this that make me wish you would talk with something other than your mouth at times.

Chelsea, ManUtd in transition? Dont make me laugh. Now who is making excuses? What the feck do u mean by Arsenal are transitioning a lot later than the rest? I mean what does than mean in logic terms?

Bottom-line is, dude, that levels of danger posed by Henry, Pires, Van Persie, Fabregas, Ljungberg, Reyes, Hleb are as dangerous as any other team's collection in descending order. Case closed.
 
RuneEdge said:
So now you make your judgements based on one game? :roll:

Heres an example of what I'm talking about.
http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=actimTop100
Check out the Actim Player Rankings (if you have in doubts in them, read the faqs) for this season. The highest Arsenal player is Henry at 4th and you dont see another player until Fabregas who's in at 27. But if you look between that, Chelsea, Man Utd and Liverpool all have many players who are in the top 30. The next player after Fabregas is in at number 49. See the difference in the quality of your players?
This is because the responsibilty in the other teams that I mentioned are shared more between their players compared to how its shared around at Arsenal.
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Well, thats for the season, of course, we're having a bad season similar to what ManUtd went through last season and I'm sure we had more players up there in the index than we do now. I dont suppose you wrote off Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Wes Brown, Silvestre, Park, Ronaldo last season as not being able to boost a team when they were being as shite as Pires and Ljungberg this season. No you didn't. In effect, you guys were in the same position as us last season, with only Rooney offering some sort of "danger" as u call it. He was ur top scorer with 11 goals followed by Scholes with 9. Im sure we had more players on the index than u did. Did that automatically mean that everyone else was past it? No, dude. Ljungberg is 27-28 years old if he can get past the injury bug he'll be banging them in, Pires has a lot to offer, he's just not doing it at the moment. For these reasons, it appears Henry is holding everything together, although many can argue that Fabregas is as important now, if not more. However, it would not seem like a one-man team if everybody else was doing what they are capable of doing. ManYoo stunk last year because of the same problem and we do now for the same reasons. But your argument still does not hold because players can/will regain form.
 
lucasetor said:
I dont care if Rooney's a better player.
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:lmao: I think the case was closed right there.
If being a better player doesnt mean anything, what does? We're talking about performances here. Not who wins or loses.
I think we'll leave it at that cuz your posts are only gonna get dumber after this.
 
IceMan_Bergkamp said:
i'm still chuffed! what a game. what a c*nt Camorenesi is!! blowing kisses at the crowd. Capello looked like he was gonna thump him!!!
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damn right ice i hope he, zebina and viera got their taxis back to turin they were shit! man i almost broke run off to highbury to smack zebina!

juve looked like crap i cannot believe, how brilliant they have been in serie "A" and then they freeze at higbury, its almost too late 3 goal maybe possible but arsenal might nick one at delle alpi!


capello call fergie or mourinho there is light at the end of the tunnel :mrgreen:


on the other cesc wow wot a player, i reckon barca would be back sooner than later for him,

reyes has magnificent first touch and tends to get over fouled that must suck but some times he can be a bit of a prat with his easy diving!

could arsenal make it all the way! well to the gooners good luck to juve, 90 minutes is still a lot of time!
 
RuneEdge said:
:lmao: I think the case was closed right there.
If being a better player doesnt mean anything, what does? We're talking about performances here. Not who wins or loses.
I think we'll leave it at that cuz your posts are only gonna get dumber after this.
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Getting the job done means more than being a better player. Thats the dumbest question I've heard in a while. Being a better player doesn't always translate into better performance. If that was the case Michael Owen would have remained at Madrid. A lot of players are more productive than their reputation claims. What the hell is the use of a good performance from a player if he didn't provide the cutting edge to tip a game towards a win. Your inept statement that we're talking about performance not who wins or loses shows your warped grasp of the game. Ill take a match-winner over a great performer anytime, son.
 
I thought the case was closed but I guess you're desperate to prove how dumb you are.
Being a better player doesn't always translate into better performance?
Its being able to put on good performances that make you a good player in the first place. Great performers ARE match winners. :roll:

Can we move on now or do you have more to say?
 
pk9 said:
reyes has magnificent first touch and tends to get over fouled that must suck but some times he can be a bit of a prat with his easy diving!
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yes blud! i clapped when he dived at the bernabeu then rolled back on the pitch! LOL!

But he is getting on my nerves. he's tonked up in the gym since moving here, and there is no reason to keep collapsing like he does. Henry should have a word! But boy.. is Reyes fast over 10metres.. he's lightening!
 
Clockender said:
gooner0002.jpg


gooner0003.jpg


We have seats!!
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looking more and more like the Da Luz :D which i like!
 
I have read all the comments on this argument, and Rune you do have some valid points. We are in transistion this season, I don't think thats in doubt. I remember Tony Admas once saying he doesn't like the word "transistion" as it almost means you are giving yourself a season off to prepare for the next one. He wanted to fight for trophies every season regardless of the state of the squad. Thats exactly what we are doing this season. We are having a half decent stab at the only trophy we have never won.

RuneEdge said:
Things are different now. Players are about to leave the team, some are getting older, the replacements are just raw talent but dont have the experience or maturity (like Rooney for example) that the real top players do. The only man that keeps this whole team together like the skeleton of the body, is Henry.
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This quote above though is total nonesense. I wouldn't expect you to watch every Arsenal game but its clear from this that you don't watch any.

Over our last 3 games in the CL we have played with togetherness, a high tempo, one touch passing and a great TEAM ethic. Every player was playing for each other. Most pundits have agreed that the football we played the other night was sublime, you can't have 1 player (Henry) playing sublime football without the other 10 contributing something!! Henry is our most dangerous player but he doesn't hold the team together. Thats doing a great disservice to the likes of Lehmann, Toure, Eboue, Fabregas, Hleb, Pires.

Everyone talks about Henry being this unbelievable player, but take it from me he can sometimes have a detrimental effect on the team. He can be lazy, sometimes he can look disinterested. On other occasions he can sulk and he might as well not be on the pitch as its like playing with 10 men. When he is on fire though we do rely on him to provide the firepower, what team wouldn't when you have a player you provides and scores more goals than anyone else?

At the end of the day we will keep plugging away at this season and see what happens, you know that realistically the Carling cup is your only success this season. Our season, although in "transistion" could well turn out to be much more successful than yours.
 
Clockender said:
This quote above though is total nonesense. I wouldn't expect you to watch every Arsenal game but its clear from this that you don't watch any.

Over our last 3 games in the CL we have played with togetherness, a high tempo, one touch passing and a great TEAM ethic. Every player was playing for each other. Most pundits have agreed that the football we played the other night was sublime, you can't have 1 player (Henry) playing sublime football without the other 10 contributing something!! Henry is our most dangerous player but he doesn't hold the team together. Thats doing a great disservice to the likes of Lehmann, Toure, Eboue, Fabregas, Hleb, Pires.
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Obviously you're only judging this on the CL games alone. If you played like that in the other competitions too, you have been ahead of Chelsea right now. But to me (and this is just my personal opinion), if you had to judge a team from one competition, it would have to be their domestic league. Unlike other competitions, the league is more of a endurance test.
It easy to win a series of games like in a FA Cup or something cuz there are rest breaks in between, all the talk about who is in form is thrown out of the window, anything could happen on the night and in some cases like a 2 leg game, you only need to win one of the games by a required margin to go through. In the league however, its non stop football every week, your fitness is put to the test, your mentality is put to the test, etc. Its a whole different ball game when you're playing for points in a league. Sometimes it can make you complacent when you know you can still leave with a point in a draw or you know you have a game in hand. Sometimes when the games come thick and fast, the quality of your squad is really put to the test. This IMO makes a league a much tougher challenge compared to the CL. Of course theres the arguement that the quality of oppositions in the CL is much tougher but small decisions can turn a whole game around. For example, look at what happened when the ref wrongly gave Liverpool the goal against Chelsea in the CL (Debate this somewhere else. Sky Sports used a computer sim to prove it). The next game, Liverpool knew they didnt need to score if they kept a clean sheet.
Now with Arsenal, it was the same at Madrid. They scored in the first game, and to be honest, the game wasnt too bad to watch. The next game, it was a lot more boring cuz you just knew at some point that Arsenal's first priority is to simply defend. Its sad but true that teams only really have a good go in the first leg.
SPOILERS USED CUZ ITS JUST ME RAMBLING ON AND ON ABOUT A SMALL POINT. LOL
In the league however, you have to go out there and treat every game as a must win game and Arsenal cant do that. We were like this last season too and look where that left us. Now this season its your turn and when you have one of "those" games where you feel its just not gonna be your day, its times like this that a player like Henry grabs the team by the collar and lifts the team up again with killer passes or a magical run.
Although Gerrard used to do that, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd dont need that from any one player.
Another clear statistic you can look at is who are the goal scorers from each club. The goals are shared out a lot more evenly at the other clubs compared to Arsenal. And I'm not talking about goals shared between the starting XI but the whole squad. Arsenal only have one main striker, midfielder, winger, etc who scores their goals or makes the assists. Man Utd for example have more than just one striker or winger who they can get goals or assists from. If you take Ruud out of our team, we just bring in someone like Saha or Rooney. But if you take Henry out of Arsenal, who else can you rely on? No one else is even gonna come close to his 19 goals this season.
 
RuneEdge said:
Now with Arsenal, it was the same at Madrid. They scored in the first game, and to be honest, the game wasnt too bad to watch. The next game, it was a lot more boring cuz you just knew at some point that Arsenal's first priority is to simply defend. Its sad but true that teams only really have a good go in the first leg.
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You have just proved that you don't watch our games, the 2nd leg against Madrid was heralded by most as one of the best 0-0 draws ever with both teams going for the win.

As for your comment about teams only having a good go in the first leg :shock:

I doubt supporters of Benfica, Barcelona, Lyon and Milan will agree with you.
 
I think I explained that wrong. I meant teams only have a go in the first leg but in the second leg they dont if they dont have to. Of course the losing team is gonna go all out on attack. But if you were 1-0 or 2-0 up in the first leg and the second leg is 0-0 with 30 mins to play, you're not gonna push all your men up cuz you'll settle for the draw. In a league, you're expected to kill off every team in every game.

As much as I hate Chelsea, I really admire how they manage to step out onto the pitch EVERY week with the machine-like mentality where they think they MUST win the game at all costs. They can recieve all the bad press people throw at them but to be able to put that aside and play so consistantly just amazes me. Man Utd and Liverpool are almost on the same track but Arsenal dont seem to be able to play like that. If every player (or atleast most of them) were reliable as each other, then it would work.
 
bradley1886 said:
No, we all remember when Chelsea were skint and shite.
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aaah the good old days... santa claus as the chairman, a beach for a pitch, jody morris as a starter, the whole chelsea village fiasco... lucky ambramovich came when he did, otherwise they'd be playing in the championship with Leeds!
 
marukomu said:
hate the cheats but you've got to admire their will to win at all costs
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RuneEdge said:
Not sure if I'm the only one but I dont think thats something you should be admiring. It was special last season cuz they havent won the the league in 50 years but now its just getting annoying.
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RuneEdge said:
As much as I hate Chelsea, I really admire how they manage to step out onto the pitch EVERY week with the machine-like mentality where they think they MUST win the game at all costs. QUOTE]


make your mind up ;)
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RuneEdge said:
I thought the case was closed but I guess you're desperate to prove how dumb you are.
Being a better player doesn't always translate into better performance?
Its being able to put on good performances that make you a good player in the first place. Great performers ARE match winners. :roll:

Can we move on now or do you have more to say?
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Just got back and realised you're still playing the stupid one around here.
 
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