Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)
Looking forward to the podcast mate.
Although I still don't agree with ya on the speed issue.
I would say that mostly everyone who argues that the game is too fast simply mean that the player animations are too quick and longballs are too fast to reach their destinations, to resemble real life football. When I say the game is "too fast" I don't in any way base that on the camera angle. It's not like I would say "now the speed is not too fast" if I moved another 3m away from the TV (sicne that would have the same effect as pushing the camera back, making the players smaller and making the distances between them slower. It's still too fast, because the players do stuff way faster than real players (my fixed point of comparison is how real players behave, and not how quickly I need to move my eyes to keep up with the players moving on the screen). When I refer to the speed of the game (for example the speed of running of a player), I refer to the players speed in relation to the pitch, not in relation to the area of the pitch I see on the screen.
Your argument would much better be stated by saying that the wide camera "makes the player run a shorter distance on the screen since the camera is farther away". Because it is only relative to the camera (and the amount of the pitch visible) the speed has changed, not in any other respect. So that's why I think it seems kind of weird saying "the game is slower" because for most of us that would mean that the game "moves" slower and such.
I always judge the speed with a "fixed" comparison, that of a "realistic speed" (obviously it's not fixed, but it is one that most people are familiar with and can relate to in some way), and it seems kind of backwards to me to have only the camera's view as a referencepoint when stating "the game is slower". It moves slower on the screen because the camera is farther away and thus everyhting is smaller yes, but it doesn't actually move slower, it's just an illusion.
To make an example that might suit better in this case;
If I see Carl Lewis running 100 meters with a far camera, and then from another viewpoint, maybe a tracking camera that moves alongside him, saying to a friend "Wow, Carl Lewis is running much faster now" will most likely have your friend rather confused, because he knows that Lewis ran 100m in 9:85, and thus the speed of Carl Lewis' race is a fixed value.
You are definitely not wrong when you say it moves slower, I just think that you are using an unusual reference point that I would wager leaves most people confused because they think that "the game is slower than the demo" means that, with all factors the same, PES runs slower. They aren't automatically going to assume that you are referring to the difference of Normal and Wide camera, because you didn't mention the camera. They think that the only difference you are talking about is the Demo vs. Current version, not far vs. normal camera (Because then it would be more natural to simply just say "the game is slower with wide camera").
I just feel that when you say "the game is slower than the demo", you are making a comparison, and unless you state the differing factors involved in the comparison (such as cameras etc) people are going to assume that none of those factors exist (in other words, that the cameras in the comparison were the same for both subjects, thus meaning that the players run a certain distance slower on the new version than the Demo).
This was a very long post for something that really isn't such a big deal, but I've read some reports of slower gameplay and gotten my hopes up, only to realize it is the camera that is the only difference, not the actual game (players, ball etc) being slower in pace (again, if Carl lewis runs 100m at a certain time, his "speed" is that time, and saying he was slower just because of a different camera makes no sense to me, because someone being slower to me will always mean he ran 100m at a slower time, and has nothing to do with what vantage point you have when watching it. A speed of 100 km/h is 100km/h regardless if you are near or far).
Also whenever you ewant to make comparisons between stuff, it just doesn't work to involve the vantage point (cameras etc) in the equation.
For example, most seem to agree that FIFA08 plays slower than PES2008, right? But if you change camera in FFIA to one really close, can you then suddenly state that FIFA all of a sudden is faster and more "arcade than PES? Try that on a forum and you are going to see some really confused people, because they don't compare the speed of the games by the perceived speed, they compare the absolute speeds (how long does it take to run 20m, how long does it take to execute a similar turning animation in the games, etc). Involving camera angles and vantage points when talking about a concept as "speed" which is very absolute is going to confuse alot of people. Ronaldinho's TopSpeed didn't increase just because i moved my head closer to the TV (his pereived speed did (his speed in relation to my eyes), but that is a pretty pointless thing to say when announcing that to people all around the world who all have different TV's, distances they sit from the TV etc etc.
Because not everyone uses the same camera, has the same size TV, sits the same distance from the TV, everyones perceived speed will be different, and thus it is not a good base for a comparison. Absolute speeds will always be absolute whatever camera setting or TV you have, and thus those are valid in all cases, which is preferable since you can make comparisons between for example FIFA08 and PES2008 regardless of what cameras people are using or other circumstances.
In any comparison, you want to keep the variables to a minimum. If you are going to compare "speed", then the only desired variable is "speed".
Again, this is really long, but I wanted to make sure that I really explained myself so as not to appear just argumentative and bitchy.
Really, I could have written this in like 4 sentences, but I seem to have a knack of writing perhaps 30 lines just to make sure I have covered all my bases and given some examples to further give some perspective to what I am on about. Sorry.
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