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Why are PES 5 & 6 so highly regarded?

Madmac79 said:
I've always found the nostalgia, or rose tinted glasses, or whatever you want to call it argument, to fall flat when people play entire seasons of this or that game for a very long time span.

I mean, I think I already said it, I'll say it again.. I have nostalgia of so many old games, yet I can only play them for a couple minute max. Fifa 98 came out in the most magical football moment for me, I played it countless of hours as a kid.. today? I'll get warm feelings if I saw videos, or images of it, but there is no way I'm playing a whole season on it (or, heck, probably even a single match to be completely honest). And that's true for countless other games of other genres too.

The simple, most obvious truth when you have a community so dedicated to this day, is that those Pes are still fun to play. End of story, there really isn't much more to say.
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I've played ISS Pro Evo 1 and 2 on PS1 and PES 2,3,5, 6, 2008 on PS2 recently, they are all still fantastic and I'd happily play a whole Master League on any of them and be very happy. No interest at all doing same on PES21.
 
FC Bayern said:
I would say though, 9 races from about 68 (97-2000)?

Question for everyone, how big a factor is Seabass in the thread question?
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There are way more. Maybe not all epic but great races. Quickly coming to my mind Argentina 1998, Monza 1999 or Hockenheim 2000.

Also, these cars could race on wet. Now as soon as it rains, safety car is out. That's also a big difference with today's F1.

There was less GP / season but more interesting tracks where any error could lead to a DNF with the sand outside the track.

In last 68 races, I can't hardly find one that could qualify as epic (imho).

What I wanted to show here is that there much more than nostalgia as a reason why a lot of fans see F1 going in the wrong direction. I was myself a die-hard F1 fan (waking up early for the qualifications and GPs in Australia or Japan) but I completely stopped watching now.

I even stated to follow NASCAR (Jeff Gordon and Danica Patrick fan) but then stopped watching after the introduction of the new format (races split in segments).
 
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100% agree with @Madmac79. Personally, I don't quite subscribe to the nostalgia glasses either. I believe a game is either enjoyable or not, on its own.

For example, when I play Contra Alien Wars or Super Mario World, I'm quite sure I'm not enjoying them because of nostalgia. I truly have a great time playing these games. Sure, the fact that I grew up playing them brings back great memories of my childhood, but I can really say that I enjoy these games more than 99% of modern games.

Same can be said about PES 5 or 6. Even though I enjoy PES 2017-21 a great deal (and won't get into a debate as to which ones I like better, as for me both generations are different, but both great, experiences), when I pick up PES 5 and 6, I can honestly say that I enjoy them for what they are. An important note: I came into PES late (my first PES was 2017), and never played PES 5 or 6 when they came out, so when I play them now I'm quite sure it's with a fresh perspective. They're just great, balanced, classic, unpredictable and most importantly, FUN representations of football.
 
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Madmac79 said:
I've always found the nostalgia, or rose tinted glasses, or whatever you want to call it argument, to fall flat when people play entire seasons of this or that game for a very long time span.

I mean, I think I already said it, I'll say it again.. I have nostalgia of so many old games, yet I can only play them for a couple minute max. Fifa 98 came out in the most magical football moment for me, I played it countless of hours as a kid.. today? I'll get warm feelings if I saw videos, or images of it, but there is no way I'm playing a whole season on it (or, heck, probably even a single match to be completely honest). And that's true for countless other games of other genres too.

The simple, most obvious truth when you have a community so dedicated to this day, is that those Pes are still fun to play. End of story, there really isn't much more to say.
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Pagi84 said:
I've played ISS Pro Evo 1 and 2 on PS1 and PES 2,3,5, 6, 2008 on PS2 recently, they are all still fantastic and I'd happily play a whole Master League on any of them and be very happy. No interest at all doing same on PES21.
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millossobek said:
100% agree with @Madmac79. Personally, I don't quite subscribe to the nostalgia glasses either. I believe a game is either enjoyable or not, on its own.

For example, when I play Contra Alien Wars or Super Mario World, I'm quite sure I'm not enjoying them because of nostalgia. I truly have a great time playing these games. Sure, the fact that I grew up playing them brings back great memories of my childhood, but I can honestly say that I enjoy these games more than 99% of modern games.

Same can be said about PES 5 or 6. Even though I enjoy PES 2017-21 a great deal (and won't get into a debate as to which ones I like better, as for me both generations are different, but both great, experiences), when I pick up PES 5 and 6, I can honestly say that I enjoy them for what they are. An important note: I came into PES late (my first PES was 2017), and never played PES 5 or 6 when they came out, so when I play them now I'm quite sure it's with a fresh perspective. They're just great, balanced, classic, unpredictable and most importantly, FUN representations of football.
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Totally agree here. Now, to the latest news also to just demonstrate that's not nostalgia after all:

Who wanna play some authentic PES 6 EURO 2024 mini patch? @Karlo Cizma is working hard on it and from his estimations, will be done this weekend... :...

https://evoweb.uk/threads/uefa-euro-2024-patch-work-in-progress.97599/

So excited, like I'm waiting for a new EURO 2024 football game... :RSCARF:
 
FC Bayern said:
I would say though, 9 races from about 68 (97-2000)?

Question for everyone, how big a factor is Seabass in the thread question?
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No football match, not even the 2022 WC final could compare to races like:

2018 & 2019 German Grand Prix's
2008 Brazilian Grand Prix.
2011 Canadian Grand Prix.
2005 Japanesee Grand Prix.
1998 Belgian Grand Prix.

Like football. You go through loads of boring 0-0s, turgid 1-0s, disappointing one sided thrashings till you get the odd unforgettable match.

In F1 its like that too but x10. You have 5-6 boring precesion races then a great race, but when you wait around for a Canada 2011, Brazil 2008, cheesier than cheesy hollywood movie like races its all worth it.

Football maybe a better sport for more people than F1 however there is no better sporting spectacle than a exciting F1 race.
 
Flipper the Priest said:
Disagree there. Its simplicity makes it easy to pick up; but cracking those games is no more straightforward than with any subsequent release. Less frustrating too, as later games relied as much on handicapping as they did improvements on AI.
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One simple thing... On Pes 2021 It's not uncommon dominate a game, and then lose for something really stupid,against a player is cleary less skilled.

On old Pes,if skills level between players were not small...well, the good player wins mostly times..

In 2007 I won a small local Pes6 tournament here, dominating all matches, won 4-0 at final.
Level was not high,but I was the best player with some margin...so i won all matches without problems.
Responsive controls,A.i balancing and awarness let you play good.
Pes2021 with its unresponsive controls and bad A.i kill the skill gap
 
simogto90 said:
One simple thing... On Pes 2021 It's not uncommon dominate a game, and then lose for something really stupid,against a player is cleary less skilled.

On old Pes,if skills level between players were not small...well, the good player wins mostly times..

In 2007 I won a small local Pes6 tournament here, dominating all matches, won 4-0 at final.
Level was not high,but I was the best player with some margin...so i won all matches without problems.
Responsive controls,A.i balancing and awarness let you play good.
Pes2021 with its unresponsive controls and bad A.i kill the skill gap
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I am very thankful that my brother and me are at about the same skill level when it comes to PES 2008.

That means that when we play against each other we can really concentrate on how good or bad the team is that we are controlling rather than the person we are playing against. That also means that one of us can dominate a game, but not because we are the better player but because we are controlling the better team, and then lose to something really stupid, maybe too much confidence in our team that it will win.
 
Man... that patch looks cool, but I remember 6 (and 4) being too 'end to end' compared to 3, 5 and 2008 even. Really lacking midfield play and defense/tackling. It was like you could pass it around so easily and the AI didn't 'play the passing lanes' good at all. We always had higher scoring games when we played those and maybe if you played shorter games that might work better, but we liked more a more realistic balance of offense and defense with 20 minute games.

It's been a while, as I avoided 6 for many years because of that, but maybe there's been tweeks/adjustments/ect..since then, as I've seen a lot more activity around these classics, as opposed to a decade or so ago. (guess the newshit isn't delivering)

Also, can anyone link me a PES 6 editor I can load this Euro 24 PES 6 patch up in ? The link for this Majin Editor on this page appears to be dead. https://evoweb.uk/threads/applicati...iting-questions-thread-links-on-1-page.63165/
 
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Simply put, both games found the balance between arcade and realism. They were designed to be games first and foremost, and to reflect 90mins action in 10-15mins, to give you all the ebbs and flows of a football match in a condensed time frame.

The lack of "freedom" also allowed the devs to create a game where outcomes can be determined but influenced heavily by situational variables. This created an illusion of variety whilst keeping the game refined. The 16 directions and "on rails" passing allowed much greater influence from stats, body position etc because the ball can only exist or travel in a limited number of ways. Now there are so many variables and the ball/players are detached as entities, the whole system becomes infinitely more difficult to manage.

The focus has moved away from creating the feel and emotion of a football match as a whole, to creating control and realism in "moments". You can now create individual moments that look and feel like real football but they are all completely detached from the entire match itself.

The biggest complaint back on these forums in 2005/6 was scripting and lack of freedom in passing/dribbling. Unfortunately, both of those things were central to the balance of the game and reflecting player attributes through manageable numbers of pre-determined outcomes. Sometimes less is more.

Edit: even animations are easier to manage when the ball trajectory etc has limited outcomes. No more weird looking or half skipped animations to fill a gap.
 
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bussinrounds said:
Man... that patch looks cool, but I remember 6 (and 4) being too 'end to end' compared to 3, 5 and 2008 even. Really lacking midfield play and defense/tackling. It was like you could pass it around so easily and the AI didn't 'play the passing lanes' good at all. We always had higher scoring games when we played those and maybe if you played shorter games that might work better, but we liked more a more realistic balance of offense and defense with 20 minute games.

It's been a while, as I avoided 6 for many years because of that, but maybe there's been tweeks/adjustments/ect..since then, as I've seen a lot more activity around these classics, as opposed to a decade or so ago. (guess the newshit isn't delivering)

Also, can anyone link me a PES 6 editor I can load this Euro 24 PES 6 patch up in ? The link for this Majin Editor on this page appears to be dead. https://evoweb.uk/threads/applicati...iting-questions-thread-links-on-1-page.63165/
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I agree with what you say, I remember getting PES 6 and after a couple of weeks I gave it to my best mate’s son. I found it too end to end, the shots overpowered, and not as many free kicks as PES 5. Also, I found that I always won headers from goal kicks whether that was from me or the CPU kicking it out. So it meant that I could win possession quite easily.

I know that PES 6 does get a lot of love and I think that has a lot to do with the amount of patches that there are rather than the actual gameplay itself. ;)
 
geeeeee said:
I agree with what you say, I remember getting PES 6 and after a couple of weeks I gave it to my best mate’s son. I found it too end to end, the shots overpowered, and not as many free kicks as PES 5. Also, I found that I always won headers from goal kicks whether that was from me or the CPU kicking it out. So it meant that I could win possession quite easily.

I know that PES 6 does get a lot of love and I think that has a lot to do with the amount of patches that there are rather than the actual gameplay itself. ;)
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I could see 1 big reason why they like 6 more than 5 from a gameplay standpoint. The players touch on the ball. In 5 it feels a lot more sloppy and harder to control your man when he's on the ball, which I'm not in love with. That's why I do think 2008 on PS2 is kinda like a good compromise of the 2. It has the better player control of 6 but doesn't seem quite as end to end and offensive either. I have only played vs the cpu in 2008 and never an actual person, so that's another factor also. I use to play a lot of 3, 4, 5, 6 with friends back when they came out.

How is 2008 when you play head to head vs your bro ? Can you have realistic games from an offense/defense standpoint like in 5. or is it like in 6 where shots are flying hot and heavy..left and right and there's basically no midfield play ?
 
Despite the obvious simplicity that comes with games that are about two decades old, what these games absolutely nailed was an appropriate level of separation between player and ball.

Not only does the ball ‘feel’ like it can go anywhere, players exercise an appropriate level of ball control without this sticky low key magnetism feeling that the newer titles have….misplaced passes feel organic and not the result of some error setting you’ve added in somehow.

It makes these games *feel* far more alive than the limited direction of player movement gives them any right to be.

For me it’s what developers of the new games should really be focussing on trying to get back to.

Sigh… they won’t, though. Imagine the outcry from some YouTube ‘FUT content creator’ when one of their players takes a heavy touch or they place a pass just behind a player run. The histrionic meltdown would be monstrous.
 
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OleCiro said:
Despite the obvious simplicity that comes with games that are about two decades old, what these games absolutely nailed was an appropriate level of separation between player and ball.

Not only does the ball ‘feel’ like it can go anywhere, players exercise an appropriate level of ball control without this sticky low key magnetism feeling that the newer titles have….misplaced passes feel organic and not the result of some error setting you’ve added in somehow.

It makes these games *feel* far more alive than the limited direction of player movement gives them any right to be.

For me it’s what developers of the new games should really be focussing on trying to get back to.

Sigh… they won’t, though. Imagine the outcry from some YouTube ‘FUT content creator’ when one of their players takes a heavy touch or they place a pass just behind a player run. The histrionic meltdown would be monstrous.
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Im not sure I agree with this. I always felt the the ball was very much on rails and if I wanted to to go where I needed I had to make sure I accounted for all the things which could affect the outcome. Passing stats, especially for more difficult balls. Is it the strong foot? Is their body shape right for the pass? Are they under pressure? Are they tired etc. all of these things had to be taken into account, especially if the players passing stats were lower. And that’s what made good passers feel so unique. The ball didn’t feel separate but I knew with pirlo for example, i could make a pass which I couldn’t with Gilberto, even if he was a bit off balance or being rushed.

Same happened for shooting, tackling etc.

Unless I used manual passing with right stick (?) I felt the options were limited though.
 
Bravez said:
Im not sure I agree with this. I always felt the the ball was very much on rails and if I wanted to to go where I needed I had to make sure I accounted for all the things which could affect the outcome. Passing stats, especially for more difficult balls. Is it the strong foot? Is their body shape right for the pass? Are they under pressure? Are they tired etc. all of these things had to be taken into account, especially if the players passing stats were lower. And that’s what made good passers feel so unique. The ball didn’t feel separate but I knew with pirlo for example, i could make a pass which I couldn’t with Gilberto, even if he was a bit off balance or being rushed.

Same happened for shooting, tackling etc.

Unless I used manual passing with right stick (?) I felt the options were limited though.
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Yeah, I get that. You got the same with shooting too, i played Pes 6 the ther day and scored some great long rang strikes with Totti and De-Rossi playing as Roma...while other lads would end up absolutely balloning it over the bar, especially with the wrong foot.

It brought variety, though. Which doesn't feel,at least, is present in the newer games.
 
Bravez said:
Im not sure I agree with this. I always felt the the ball was very much on rails and if I wanted to to go where I needed I had to make sure I accounted for all the things which could affect the outcome. Passing stats, especially for more difficult balls. Is it the strong foot? Is their body shape right for the pass? Are they under pressure? Are they tired etc. all of these things had to be taken into account, especially if the players passing stats were lower. And that’s what made good passers feel so unique. The ball didn’t feel separate but I knew with pirlo for example, i could make a pass which I couldn’t with Gilberto, even if he was a bit off balance or being rushed.

Same happened for shooting, tackling etc.

Unless I used manual passing with right stick (?) I felt the options were limited though.
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Because the ball was on rails, right analog manual passing was literally game breaking as it derails everything and opens up the game so much. Some of the old PES 6 manual passing videos on YT were just spectacular to watch
https://www.youtube.com/@elgrounto/videos
 
bussinrounds said:
I could see 1 big reason why they like 6 more than 5 from a gameplay standpoint. The players touch on the ball. In 5 it feels a lot more sloppy and harder to control your man when he's on the ball, which I'm not in love with. That's why I do think 2008 on PS2 is kinda like a good compromise of the 2. It has the better player control of 6 but doesn't seem quite as end to end and offensive either. I have only played vs the cpu in 2008 and never an actual person, so that's another factor also. I use to play a lot of 3, 4, 5, 6 with friends back when they came out.

How is 2008 when you play head to head vs your bro ? Can you have realistic games from an offense/defense standpoint like in 5. or is it like in 6 where shots are flying hot and heavy..left and right and there's basically no midfield play ?
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2008 has the best dribbling on PS2 era.
What it miss from Pes5 is first touch and physical challenges..as consequences we have less fouls too.
 
simogto90 said:
2008 has the best dribbling on PS2 era.
What it miss from Pes5 is first touch and physical challenges..as consequences we have less fouls too.
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I wish it was a bit toned down for the cpu in 2008. I like this one, but playing vs the cpu is a bit hard for me and infuriating.....even on normal/regular. :BRICK:This is def the game to play if you got too good vs the cpu in the other ones. Unfortunately that isn't me....yet anyway. I have been playing for like 20 years or so, so that is a bit discouraging. At least it hasn't been consistently though ;))
 
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bussinrounds said:
I wish it was a bit toned down for the cpu in 2008. I like this one, but playing vs the cpu is a bit hard for me and infuriating.....even on normal/regular. :BRICK:This is def the game to play if you got too good vs the cpu in the other ones. Unfortunately that isn't me....yet anyway. I have been playing for like 20 years or so, so that is a bit discouraging. At least it hasn't been consistently though ;))
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It is indeed the one with the best CPU on PS2 era.
I played some matches today,and what a game it is! It Is really hard choose between 2008 and 5 for the best one.
 
bussinrounds said:
I wish it was a bit toned down for the cpu in 2008. I like this one, but playing vs the cpu is a bit hard for me and infuriating.....even on normal/regular. :BRICK:This is def the game to play if you got too good vs the cpu in the other ones. Unfortunately that isn't me....yet anyway. I have been playing for like 20 years or so, so that is a bit discouraging. At least it hasn't been consistently though ;))
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Yeh it is really difficult to defend, but once you master it it is really rewarding.

Have a read of this thread from many years ago. It has some good tips on defending.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/940561-pro-evolution-soccer-2008/42428264?page=1

Thinking about it I know you play with the unadjusted stats file, for me I cannot play the game like that because it is too fast so that would make it almost impossible to defend against the CPU. In fact if it wasn't for the adjusted stats I would probably still be playing PES5. ;)

Also, it could depend on the camera view, I have mine on wide view so that I can see the pitch better.

Finally, I don’t play cup games as much now so that could make it more difficult because play stats stay the same. Whereas in ML it is really hard to begin with but once I start training my players and increasing their Defence and Balance, along with that, their Team Work increases. It means that the game gets much better and easier (although still difficult) because your players awareness on the pitch has improved.

ML is really quite excellent because once the Team Work improves for each player they start to run into better positions and defend better. :D
 
geeeeee said:
Yeh it is really difficult to defend, but once you master it it is really rewarding.

Have a read of this thread from many years ago. It has some good tips on defending.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/940561-pro-evolution-soccer-2008/42428264?page=1

Thinking about it I know you play with the unadjusted stats file, for me I cannot play the game like that because it is too fast so that would make it almost impossible to defend against the CPU. In fact if it wasn't for the adjusted stats I would probably still be playing PES5. ;)

Also, it could depend on the camera view, I have mine on wide view so that I can see the pitch better.

Finally, I don’t play cup games as much now so that could make it more difficult because play stats stay the same. Whereas in ML it is really hard to begin with but once I start training my players and increasing their Defence and Balance, along with that, their Team Work increases. It means that the game gets much better and easier (although still difficult) because your players awareness on the pitch has improved.

ML is really quite excellent because once the Team Work improves for each player they start to run into better positions and defend better. :D
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Hi geeeee. Is this stats files avaible on PS2 too?
 
geeeeee said:
Yeh it is really difficult to defend, but once you master it it is really rewarding.

Have a read of this thread from many years ago. It has some good tips on defending.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/940561-pro-evolution-soccer-2008/42428264?page=1

Thinking about it I know you play with the unadjusted stats file, for me I cannot play the game like that because it is too fast so that would make it almost impossible to defend against the CPU. In fact if it wasn't for the adjusted stats I would probably still be playing PES5. ;)

Also, it could depend on the camera view, I have mine on wide view so that I can see the pitch better.

Finally, I don’t play cup games as much now so that could make it more difficult because play stats stay the same. Whereas in ML it is really hard to begin with but once I start training my players and increasing their Defence and Balance, along with that, their Team Work increases. It means that the game gets much better and easier (although still difficult) because your players awareness on the pitch has improved.

ML is really quite excellent because once the Team Work improves for each player they start to run into better positions and defend better. :D
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No, I play with the global edits/adjusted stats, but I use the vertical long cam (seems like not many ppl do?) and I play on an actual PS2 and CRT TV with no widescreen, so prob do need to rely on the radar a bit more, making it tougher even. But after all these years it just feels wrong to me controlling the players going side to side, so that's why I play on vertical cam.

Maybe playing through the emulator would be a better option, so I can get widescreen and be able to see more of the pitch, without having to rely on the radar as much ? I do have an older PC and figured it wouldn't even play as smoothly as it does on actual hardware, so I never really pursued that.

Thanks for that link, btw...gonna read thru it. :TU:
 
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I love the ball and animations in the old-gen games. It feels like you're running with the ball , there's no button lag and it's just beautiful. It’s the same admiration I feel when playing Wave Race 64 and its wave physics or Mario 64 and its perfect handling.

However, PES6's AI is awful and that seems to be a problem with most older games. The players just stand around, with the closest one making a predictable run to get the ball and when attacking there is no such as build up or planning 2-3 moves in advance. The players just follow the same stale simple rules every time. Its mind numbingly boring stuff.
 
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As for me, I've always liked the pass weight and stats influence in PES 5/6 with default settings.

Love the different outcomes of the shots and passes, the waywardness or accuracy affected by the players' stats, in my opinion it really creates a lot of enjoyable variety between players. :TU:

I think PES 5/6 are some of the best editions in terms of reflecting real stat-based differences. You can really feel it.
 
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bussinrounds said:
No, I play with the global edits/adjusted stats, but I use the vertical long cam (seems like not many ppl do?) and I play on an actual PS2 and CRT TV with no widescreen, so prob do need to rely on the radar a bit more, making it tougher even. But after all these years it just feels wrong to me controlling the players going side to side, so that's why I play on vertical cam.

Maybe playing through the emulator would be a better option, so I can get widescreen and be able to see more of the pitch, without having to rely on the radar as much ? I do have an older PC and figured it wouldn't even play as smoothly as it does on actual hardware, so I never really pursued that.

Thanks for that link, btw...gonna read thru it. :TU:
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Yep I guess the vertical cam may have something to do with it.

I also play 15mins games which may slow the CPU a bit when attacking :THINK:
 
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