Why are PES 5 & 6 so highly regarded?

Are we allowed to talk about devices such as R36S? I feel this could be the new home to PES 5/6 along with other games that special to me in ISS Pro Evolution 1 & 2. These games should live forever on handheld devices you can enjoy on the go,

PES 6 is for me the last Konami game they made which was a complete 9/10 package at the time with everything, not just gameplay but so many modes, challenges, editing capabilities and early online content. PES since then was either poor gameplay with good content or good gameplay with questionable or poor content and now...... efootball...eh.

One thing for sure is that I agree 100% in games aren't made with the same love we used to see back in this era.
 
Classic PES has something that most games lack. The indescribable quality that gives you the dopamine hit when you play a good through ball, score a free kick or finish your goal chance right in the corner. Modern games deal these things out as a given. E.g I’ve played FC 24 and if you’re through on goal (which happens a lot) 90% of the time you know it’s going in the back of the net.
With Classic PES these things aren’t a given and I personally think that when your vision plays out on PES as you want it to it’s so rewarding and satisfying.
Anyway, that’s what I think!

I think one part has to do with the keepers. Its a challenge to beat them 1on1 as they rush out the goal and you dont have the super fast responses from the input like in fifa to react quickly. Plus with the PES keepers you never know if it will be a save or even a human mistake. Its a great part of the satisfaction feeling.
 
I think PES 6 has its status because not enough players are aware of PES/WE 2008 (PS2 version). :P

Don't get me wrong, PES 6 is great, it's just that 2008 (PS2) improved it where needed.

Too bad the PC version is the PS3 version instead of the PS2.

PES 5 is a different beast though. I'd not say better or worse than 2008, just different.

This :TU:
 
Absolutely bizarre moment today - I'm not sure if any Guardian writers are on this forum... but the premise of this thread was essentially one of today's articles!

Check this out:

The Guardian: Jude Bellingham's late stunner reminded me why Pro Evolution Soccer hit the target

“These games felt like authentic football,” says Ben Wilson who was editor of Official PlayStation at the time. “There was genuine joy to be had in grinding out a 1-0 win. Modern football games have as much in common with basketball as football – you shoot, I shoot, you shoot, I shoot, final score 6-4.”

To see the words "basketball" and in-particular "you shoot, I shoot", which is all FIFA / EAFC has been to me since around FIFA 20, is somewhat of a relief frankly. We're not alone in feeling this way; we're not complaining for the sake of it; we're not trolling. (I remember playing the EAFC beta, running from box-to-box with defenders, and feeling so genuinely heartbroken at the thought of another ~10 years without a football game I could truly love.)

Again, I think it all comes down to (PES and) a lack of control over your players, having to "Southgate" a draw if your players weren't good enough (otherwise you'd run into opponents and watch helplessly as they counter-attacked you and cut you wide open), versus (EAFC and) so much control - plus zero defensive assistance - that every game is essentially the same game of pinball.
 
Absolutely bizarre moment today - I'm not sure if any Guardian writers are on this forum... but the premise of this thread was essentially one of today's articles!

Check this out:

The Guardian: Jude Bellingham's late stunner reminded me why Pro Evolution Soccer hit the target



To see the words "basketball" and in-particular "you shoot, I shoot", which is all FIFA / EAFC has been to me since around FIFA 20, is somewhat of a relief frankly. We're not alone in feeling this way; we're not complaining for the sake of it; we're not trolling. (I remember playing the EAFC beta, running from box-to-box with defenders, and feeling so genuinely heartbroken at the thought of another ~10 years without a football game I could truly love.)

Again, I think it all comes down to (PES and) a lack of control over your players, having to "Southgate" a draw if your players weren't good enough (otherwise you'd run into opponents and watch helplessly as they counter-attacked you and cut you wide open), versus (EAFC and) so much control - plus zero defensive assistance - that every game is essentially the same game of pinball.

I mean, it doesn't surprise me at all to see nowadays an article about why football games in the past had that risk/reward achievement in them, or that were so consumer friendly, or about being a complete overall methodical package in comparison to what we've got nowadays.

In some regards I think the digitalization played a big part and changed almost everything in our culture including the entire art, entertainment, or the monetization aspect of both. We get year by year more expensive games with less or sliced content hidden as dlcs, or f2p games with some form of virtual monetization in them, or even both combined. We don't own games anymore, consoles are just a mirage now coz' everything is on cloud and accessed by subscription models...

That said, especially in football games was a plain transformation during the last two decades: from lots of titles to just two main companies producing them, from offline enclined produced games to a more "social interaction" focused games, from main consoles and pc advanced development to a more accesible mobile versions of them, from physical hand crafted products to digital automated or AI lazy development to cut expenses, from annually monetization releases to bare bones monthly patched 100 times versions of them with marketed virtual stores, where you buy nothing material and you'll need always to be connected.

Personally I think this will never change in our time (besides an asteroid) or could get even worse, so hand crafting as it was in art is mostly gone especially regarding v1.0 titles (except few studios) , the classic method to own a complete product is out, and that long lost demand for them doesn't exist anymore.

We're very lucky that we had that privilege to experience all those great titles from the past, but at least we could enjoy keeping them alive here with mods and content knowing them even better. Except indies, I don't think will get anything similar soon as complete products with free unlockables where the main protagonist is a themed methodical football gameplay, but as you've mentioned: is good to see as a moment of relief that some mainstream media gives credit where is needed...
 
Rewatching some Seria A matches from 2004-2005 season, and comparing them to Pes5 i can cleary see how much good was Pes5 football's depiction.
Football changed a lot (for the worst in my opinion), and now Pes5 flows don't match much reality where teams are no more long as in past, vertical game is just a old mirage and physical battles are way more soft...
In my opinion old Pes (expecially 5 and 2008 PS2) are so fun even cause they try to simulate a kind of football which is more fun even in reality in comparision than nowdays iteration.

Well...blast out defensive A.i from FIFA isn't a good idea,and of course this is the main problem on EA title.
 
Nostalgia - that's it - amazing games for their time - but when people compare them to where PES 2021 is right now - NO - PES 2021 with mods is just on a different planet
Exactly my thought. Nostalgia makes everything incredible. A great example is 2000's F1. The drivers, the cars, the noise. But I can remember most races were like 10-15 overtakes and Ferrari usually miles ahead at the front. I will say old PES has some redeeming features, as I mentioned on page 1, but it agree that nostalgia is a big factor. If FC 25 came out, and it was basically PES 5.5 in gameplay (with modern things like 360 dribbling perhaps), I wonder how people would genuinely rate it
 
Exactly my thought. Nostalgia makes everything incredible. A great example is 2000's F1. The drivers, the cars, the noise. But I can remember most races were like 10-15 overtakes and Ferrari usually miles ahead at the front. I will say old PES has some redeeming features, as I mentioned on page 1, but it agree that nostalgia is a big factor. If FC 25 came out, and it was basically PES 5.5 in gameplay (with modern things like 360 dribbling perhaps), I wonder how people would genuinely rate it

In fact Ferrari only dominated 3 seasons.

2000 was a rough season with great races and a superb duel Schumacher vs. Hakkinen.

2001 and 2002 were indeed dominated by Ferrari.

2003 was a very tough season for Ferrari. McLaren had a better car and Williams - BMW was as good as the Ferrari.

2004 was totally dominated by Ferrari.

I cherish F1 from mid/late 90s to late 2000's not for Nostalgia. Indeed, there were less overtakes but they were real overakes (no DRS). Just look at Mika's one over Schumacher at Spa on 2000.

Also, even if no overtake you still had some amazing races. Think about Hungary where Schumacher won with 3 stops and by running only qualifying laps to pass Coulthard !

In mid 90's, Williams at a car miles ahead.
Same for McLaren in 98. McLaren also had the best car in 99 and even maybe in 2000.

F1 always had dominating cars (from what I remember) but it was until DRS appeared something genuine.

From my perspective, introducting DRS ruined it as it lost its genuine aspect imho.

I can't explain but I also felt that the PS2 era of PES games had that genuine feeling that got lost with the latest releases. To me it's not only nostalgia.
 
I rememeber playing the old iss series on ps1 when in my late teens and it was amazing , winning eleven on the ps2 was another level completely. Such good games for their day and burning CDs with English commentary on and English text so you could read the menus. That said Pes21 modded is still far the best for me
 
In fact Ferrari only dominated 3 seasons.

2000 was a rough season with great races and a superb duel Schumacher vs. Hakkinen.

2001 and 2002 were indeed dominated by Ferrari.

2003 was a very tough season for Ferrari. McLaren had a better car and Williams - BMW was as good as the Ferrari.

2004 was totally dominated by Ferrari.

I cherish F1 from mid/late 90s to late 2000's not for Nostalgia. Indeed, there were less overtakes but they were real overakes (no DRS). Just look at Mika's one over Schumacher at Spa on 2000.

Also, even if no overtake you still had some amazing races. Think about Hungary where Schumacher won with 3 stops and by running only qualifying laps to pass Coulthard !

In mid 90's, Williams at a car miles ahead.
Same for McLaren in 98. McLaren also had the best car in 99 and even maybe in 2000.

F1 always had dominating cars (from what I remember) but it was until DRS appeared something genuine.

From my perspective, introducting DRS ruined it as it lost its genuine aspect imho.

I can't explain but I also felt that the PS2 era of PES games had that genuine feeling that got lost with the latest releases. To me it's not only nostalgia.
Yet with all that, I remember races like France 2003, where nothing happened. I get the genuine spectacle, and wish they'd get rid of DRS (bring on 2026). Maybe it was better then, just like PES 5 & 6. But I feel all that is nostalgic isn't quite what the truth is
 
Like @Flipper the Priest said, the nostalgia argument doesn’t come into it for many on here especially the modders and patchmakers. I spend about 15 hours a week keeping PES 2008 PS2 version up to date with the latest squads. If it was because of nostalgia, I would just pop the vanilla version into the PS2 and play for an hour or so.

One thing I regret was spending a couple of years trying to enjoy the newer games, whether that be PES or FIFA, spending hours teaching myself how to use the stick rather than the D-Pad, spending time going from assisted to manual to assisted to manual, then asking why there are hardly any fouls in the matches. Yep it took me about 2 years to come to terms with the fact that the newer games are crap compared to the older versions.

When I play PES2008 or PES 5 do I get that nostalgic feeling? Maybe a little, but above all I get that feeling of realism, because I get 0-0’s, i get 5-4’s, I get fouls, penalties, free kicks, I get slow build up, fast build, easy to forward cut scenes (don’t get me started on that), but most importantly I get a good game of football.
 
Like @Flipper the Priest said, the nostalgia argument doesn’t come into it for many on here especially the modders and patchmakers. I spend about 15 hours a week keeping PES 2008 PS2 version up to date with the latest squads. If it was because of nostalgia, I would just pop the vanilla version into the PS2 and play for an hour or so.

Different opinions - personally - I just cannot see how anyone could compare PES 2021 to PES 2008 on ps2 and think PES 2008 is anywhere near (I had pes 2008 both next gen xbox 360 version AND Ps2 version)

Master League in PES 2021 is just light years ahead

PES 2021 there are like 10 different ways to take a free kick! - Let alone all the different ways to score a goal, Different styles (genenpress vs tiki taka) - I dunno - I just don't get it

PES 2021 modded is more than just updating rosters, it's everything, pace of play, shot accuracy, shot power, ai pressure , you have control of more things than in any other version of PES ever made

But as long as you are happy thats the main thing.
 
Different opinions - personally - I just cannot see how anyone could compare PES 2021 to PES 2008 on ps2 and think PES 2008 is anywhere near (I had pes 2008 both next gen xbox 360 version AND Ps2 version)

Master League in PES 2021 is just light years ahead

PES 2021 there are like 10 different ways to take a free kick! - Let alone all the different ways to score a goal, Different styles (genenpress vs tiki taka) - I dunno - I just don't get it

PES 2021 modded is more than just updating rosters, it's everything, pace of play, shot accuracy, shot power, ai pressure , you have control of more things than in any other version of PES ever made

But as long as you are happy thats the main thing.

That’s all good, I have no issues with those that love the new games. My issue is with those that say we only love the old games for nostalgic reasons. It’s a disrespect for all the hours we put into keeping the old games updated ;)
 
Different opinions - personally - I just cannot see how anyone could compare PES 2021 to PES 2008 on ps2 and think PES 2008 is anywhere near (I had pes 2008 both next gen xbox 360 version AND Ps2 version)

Master League in PES 2021 is just light years ahead

PES 2021 there are like 10 different ways to take a free kick! - Let alone all the different ways to score a goal, Different styles (genenpress vs tiki taka) - I dunno - I just don't get it

PES 2021 modded is more than just updating rosters, it's everything, pace of play, shot accuracy, shot power, ai pressure , you have control of more things than in any other version of PES ever made

But as long as you are happy thats the main thing.
It's simple,but It is just my opinion: pes2021 is more advanced in terms of controls (manuale or semi, 360 degree dribbling) and animation, but lacks in several things compared to Pes 5 and 2008 PS2.
A.i is way better on old games.. pes2008 PS2 one is very good on both defense and attack, while Pes5 lacks on attack but is good at defending. Both games have a great midfield positioning, while Pes2021 one is just a joke where players don't cover passing lanes properly.
Talking about physicalty, Pes5 is probably the best game at rapresenting It...there are a lot of physics challenges and fouls count is amazing. You can actually fight for possession, while on pes2021 physicalty is more on/off with the player who lose balance and can't react to It.
Pes5 and 2008, despite their limitations on controls are way more varied and there are more random moments. I think this is due a better A.i, more responsive controls and way better impact on the pitch of players stats. Pes2021 is very monodimensional in the way you have to play... monodimensional like the shooting,where old titles do a better job and by far.
This is my opinions ,about PS4 version that I actually loved and play a lot on single player and co-op tournament. After see that I used to score always in the same way,build up and play always the same way... when i went back to Pes5 and 2008 it was a joy.
 
I wish PES 5 was open sourced. I would play the heck out of a PES 5 remake with custom career mode.

Thats something i have in my list to do actually, I have started digging how people does this reverse engineering of the whole game into files i believe one day i will get there i have found some interesting functions with ghidra and was able to rewrite some of them
 
In fact Ferrari only dominated 3 seasons.

2000 was a rough season with great races and a superb duel Schumacher vs. Hakkinen.

2001 and 2002 were indeed dominated by Ferrari.

2003 was a very tough season for Ferrari. McLaren had a better car and Williams - BMW was as good as the Ferrari.

2004 was totally dominated by Ferrari.

I cherish F1 from mid/late 90s to late 2000's not for Nostalgia. Indeed, there were less overtakes but they were real overakes (no DRS). Just look at Mika's one over Schumacher at Spa on 2000.

Also, even if no overtake you still had some amazing races. Think about Hungary where Schumacher won with 3 stops and by running only qualifying laps to pass Coulthard !

In mid 90's, Williams at a car miles ahead.
Same for McLaren in 98. McLaren also had the best car in 99 and even maybe in 2000.

F1 always had dominating cars (from what I remember) but it was until DRS appeared something genuine.

From my perspective, introducting DRS ruined it as it lost its genuine aspect imho.

I can't explain but I also felt that the PS2 era of PES games had that genuine feeling that got lost with the latest releases. To me it's not only nostalgia.

Spot on with your F1 history back in the 90's early 2000's

You forgot to add Hungary 1997, Jerez 1997, Malaysia 1999, Canada, 1999, France 1999, Japan 2000, Indianapolis 2000

Nurburgring 1999!!!!

and the notorious! Spa 1998. ;)

I miss that era too. Some things are better now, some things like DRS I agree are worse, I think they are better off with the new sexed up 'KERS' overtake battery thing is all that's needed imo.
 
I've always found the nostalgia, or rose tinted glasses, or whatever you want to call it argument, to fall flat when people play entire seasons of this or that game for a very long time span.

I mean, I think I already said it, I'll say it again.. I have nostalgia of so many old games, yet I can only play them for a couple minute max. Fifa 98 came out in the most magical football moment for me, I played it countless of hours as a kid.. today? I'll get warm feelings if I saw videos, or images of it, but there is no way I'm playing a whole season on it (or, heck, probably even a single match to be completely honest). And that's true for countless other games of other genres too.

The simple, most obvious truth when you have a community so dedicated to this day, is that those Pes are still fun to play. End of story, there really isn't much more to say.
 
Spot on with your F1 history back in the 90's early 2000's

You forgot to add Hungary 1997, Jerez 1997, Malaysia 1999, Canada, 1999, France 1999, Japan 2000, Indianapolis 2000

Nurburgring 1999!!!!

and the notorious! Spa 1998. ;)

I miss that era too. Some things are better now, some things like DRS I agree are worse, I think they are better off with the new sexed up 'KERS' overtake battery thing is all that's needed imo.

Hungary 1997, is it that one where Villeneuve did a crazy pass on Hill who finished 2nd with the Arrows Yamaha ?

Canada 1999 with the "wall of champions".

Spa 98 where Coulthard ruined Schumacher first title with the Ferrari.

In Nurburgring '99, is it where Stewart got their first son with Herbert ? And where Badoer felt in tears because an engine failure denied him from scoring his first points for Minardi ?

These are all epic races mate !
 
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Hungary 1997, is it that one where Villeneuve did a crazy pass on Hill who finished 2nd with the Arrows Yamaha ?

Canada 1999 with the "wall of champions".

Spa 98 where Coulthard ruined Schumacher first title with the Ferrari.

In Nurburgring '99, is it where Stewart got their first son with Herbert ? And where Badoer felt in tears because an engine failure denied him from scoring his first points for Minardi ?

These are all epic races mate !
I would say though, 9 races from about 68 (97-2000)?

Question for everyone, how big a factor is Seabass in the thread question?
 
It's simple,but It is just my opinion: pes2021 is more advanced in terms of controls (manuale or semi, 360 degree dribbling) and animation, but lacks in several things compared to Pes 5 and 2008 PS2.
A.i is way better on old games.. pes2008 PS2 one is very good on both defense and attack, while Pes5 lacks on attack but is good at defending. Both games have a great midfield positioning, while Pes2021 one is just a joke where players don't cover passing lanes properly.
Talking about physicalty, Pes5 is probably the best game at rapresenting It...there are a lot of physics challenges and fouls count is amazing. You can actually fight for possession, while on pes2021 physicalty is more on/off with the player who lose balance and can't react to It.
Pes5 and 2008, despite their limitations on controls are way more varied and there are more random moments. I think this is due a better A.i, more responsive controls and way better impact on the pitch of players stats. Pes2021 is very monodimensional in the way you have to play... monodimensional like the shooting,where old titles do a better job and by far.
This is my opinions ,about PS4 version that I actually loved and play a lot on single player and co-op tournament. After see that I used to score always in the same way,build up and play always the same way... when i went back to Pes5 and 2008 it was a joy.
Exactly what I wanted to say, just with more detail than I.

You can mod PES21 all you want with best camera angles, best faces, best stadiums etc, but I don't care. All that really matters is are the AI interesting to play against in defence and attack? That matters above anything else.
 
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