rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
yeah its not there,luckily i chosed 14
The Retro-PES Corner
- Thread starter miguelfcp
- Start date
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Im listening to 5 hrs podcast on San Lorenzo, and very interesting story on Boedo, and then moved to a really bad area and back to Boedo.@rockstrongo yeah, not many people know this, but Viggo grew up in Argentina, which explains his hardcore support.
San Lorenzo are cool, and they have an interesting story. They recovered their stadium and placed it in their historical Boedo neighborhood. The Argentiniean league is very passionate for sure! Los Cuervos are one of the big-five in Argentina, and they won their first Libertadores I believe in 2015, so you'll have a good team to work with!
just started a ML but im going to restart it and do some position editing, i have way to many AMF which im not using in my 433.
so far the PC version is superior to the 5fps version on ps3/xbox 360.
love Argentinian terrace culture, not the organized crime syndicate at some Barra Bravas though
millossobek
The 3-Stars Cup
@rockstrongo South American stadium culture is quite passionate generally speaking. Too bad that sometimes you get those "Barra Bravas" "Ultras" bullshit incidents though, gives a bad name to the whole fanbase unfortunately.
The good thing about PES is that we can focus on the peaceful supporters side and ignore those other elements!
The good thing about PES is that we can focus on the peaceful supporters side and ignore those other elements!
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MKC
Garra! Força! Tradição!
I think I've found my ideal settings for PES2018 now...
Difficulty: Professional
Time: 10min
Controls: FUMA
Speed: -1
Camera: Pitch Side
I can't play any other difficulty besides Professional or Top Player, anything below is way too simple, while anything above these feels way too robotic and frenetic. I keep going back and forth between the couple of settings I can play, but ultimately chose Professional simply because it feels more human, there's more CPU error, which not only makes matches feel more realistic, but also more random and interesting. Another thing that made me give up on Top Player is that the rhythm of it all is just too much, it feels like I can't let go of R1 and, even when I predict the passes, it's so difficult to ever intercept them because my players don't cover passing lanes and the CPU can do first touch passing no matter how they receive the ball, too many back heels and it feels so robotic, how the CPU goes past the midfield every time and does the same play every time... Professional can be too easy at times, but it actually plays like football.
10min is ideal due to me playing on Professional, because anything less is just not enough to play football in a considerate pace, while anything more gives me too much time to score, and I eventually will. 15min is my ideal setting on Top Player, but because I chose Professional over that, then 10min it is for me.
FUMA is a must if I want to play on a setting lower that Superstar or Legend, so it was a simple choice to make really... but not only that, I'd choose to play it regardless of difficulty at this point, while I got into FUMA to make up for lower difficulty settings, I now play on it because it's the most realistic and fun to me.
When it comes to FOX Engine PES, they've always had a good and reasonable pace, quite realistic, but out of all of them PES2018 always felt the most end to end and fast overall, to make up for that I went with -1, as it feels realistic, without it being too slow and cumbersome to play, it's just a perfect setting here.
At last there's the camera, and for the most part I'd play with Custom (0 Zoom; 5 Height; 0 Angle) and it'd work quite well, but recently I switched to my old favorite from PES2012, Pitch Side, and it's lovely. I can see less, which makes it a little harder and helps to balance the difficulty, but I can still see enough to make my FUMA plays, and overall it just looks appealing/aesthetic to me. I'd go as far as saying that it reminds me a lot of some old arcade football video games and their cameras, this style of a low camera with some zoom to make up for it, where you can see the whole pitch when you're closer to the screen, but can't see as much on the other end of the pitch, it's similar to something like Super Sidekicks 2, though the turfs there were better and I'm not even joking when I say that. I wish I could play with something like FIFA08's Tele, but I don't play on PC, so what I have is what PES2018 came with, so I went with this.
Difficulty: Professional
Time: 10min
Controls: FUMA
Speed: -1
Camera: Pitch Side
I can't play any other difficulty besides Professional or Top Player, anything below is way too simple, while anything above these feels way too robotic and frenetic. I keep going back and forth between the couple of settings I can play, but ultimately chose Professional simply because it feels more human, there's more CPU error, which not only makes matches feel more realistic, but also more random and interesting. Another thing that made me give up on Top Player is that the rhythm of it all is just too much, it feels like I can't let go of R1 and, even when I predict the passes, it's so difficult to ever intercept them because my players don't cover passing lanes and the CPU can do first touch passing no matter how they receive the ball, too many back heels and it feels so robotic, how the CPU goes past the midfield every time and does the same play every time... Professional can be too easy at times, but it actually plays like football.
10min is ideal due to me playing on Professional, because anything less is just not enough to play football in a considerate pace, while anything more gives me too much time to score, and I eventually will. 15min is my ideal setting on Top Player, but because I chose Professional over that, then 10min it is for me.
FUMA is a must if I want to play on a setting lower that Superstar or Legend, so it was a simple choice to make really... but not only that, I'd choose to play it regardless of difficulty at this point, while I got into FUMA to make up for lower difficulty settings, I now play on it because it's the most realistic and fun to me.
When it comes to FOX Engine PES, they've always had a good and reasonable pace, quite realistic, but out of all of them PES2018 always felt the most end to end and fast overall, to make up for that I went with -1, as it feels realistic, without it being too slow and cumbersome to play, it's just a perfect setting here.
At last there's the camera, and for the most part I'd play with Custom (0 Zoom; 5 Height; 0 Angle) and it'd work quite well, but recently I switched to my old favorite from PES2012, Pitch Side, and it's lovely. I can see less, which makes it a little harder and helps to balance the difficulty, but I can still see enough to make my FUMA plays, and overall it just looks appealing/aesthetic to me. I'd go as far as saying that it reminds me a lot of some old arcade football video games and their cameras, this style of a low camera with some zoom to make up for it, where you can see the whole pitch when you're closer to the screen, but can't see as much on the other end of the pitch, it's similar to something like Super Sidekicks 2, though the turfs there were better and I'm not even joking when I say that. I wish I could play with something like FIFA08's Tele, but I don't play on PC, so what I have is what PES2018 came with, so I went with this.
Chenghis.Khan
WE9LE
- 1 August 2009
also, im close to finish the formations part
@Chenghis.Khan i ask you, do you have any suggestion for this part that you would like to improve from pes fan editor?
well it does work fine in the editor.
if i could wish for something it would be two things:
- edit player positioning (like you do in the video) via arrow keys (like ingame)
- fit all the team settings on one page, so i can take just a single screenshot and get everything. currently you need to decide between the team settings (A/A/B/B etc.) and strategies (r./l. side attack etc.) or take two screens and edit them in paint...
marqisspes6
International
- 16 January 2012
can be done, i thought people prefer drag n drop, but easily when you clic and move with the key arrows you'll be able to move the dot too
can be done too, this includes each formation stots? strategy A and B ? also i can add a function to export/ import the data so everyone can import formations with copy and paste
also this is the format i decided to follow for now (picture from pes2008 editor)
question, its useful having the players at your left? or should i remove it? or only put the first eleven?
thanks for your words
Chenghis.Khan
WE9LE
- 1 August 2009
can be done, i thought people prefer drag n drop, but easily when you clic and move with the key arrows you'll be able to move the dot too
can be done too, this includes each formation stots? strategy A and B ? also i can add a function to export/ import the data so everyone can import formations with copy and paste
also this is the format i decided to follow for now (picture from pes2008 editor)
View attachment 195678
question, its useful having the players at your left? or should i remove it? or only put the first eleven?
thanks for your words
first off, thanks for doing this
i never use formation A/B, because the AI cannot use it. so honestly, i don't care about them. so either way is fine for me.
export/import would be very nice indeed
definitely keep the player list. the 1st 11 is most important but i'd keep the whole squad. two reasons:
1 - you can identify who is who on the pitch if you have a list with names & numbers (& player roles but ideally the roles would be shown in the pitch window).
2 - if you wanted to create a tactic and share a screenshot (
) you'd want a list of the whole squad included.i assume for pes5/we9 there will be the A/B/C settings for zone press & counter attack in addition to back line & offside trap?
i have one big issue with the 2008 version:
in pes fan editor you can see all the arrows and defensive dots for all players all at the same time. with the 2008 editor i can't. if it stayed that way i'd keep using pes fan editor.
also to me the pitch screen in pes fan looks more aesthetically pleasing. in the screen above the players are way too big compared to the pitch. it looks fine in the video you posted earlier tho.
i think pes fan editor does all i need very elegantly, except for the two things i mentioned.
edit: if you want to save some screen space you can leave off the reigstered player roles in the squad list, the one in parantheses next to the player name. nice but not too important.
is the autosort function the same algorithm as ingame? if so then thats amazing and i'd probably use it often to test which players the cpu would line up.
oh and one more thing. if it had a screenshot button that would capture the entire editor window (either to clipboard or directly save as jpg/png) that would be gravy. not important just very comfortable.
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
First game PES 2014 in a long time, i really enjoyed it, much more thinking in this game than most other modern ones, plus what i did on 17-18-19-20 doesn't work here.
Obvious flaws here and there but Vs every other pes games (modern) they're livable.
Obvious flaws here and there but Vs every other pes games (modern) they're livable.
millossobek
The 3-Stars Cup
@rockstrongo nice! Against Estudiantes de la Plata, no less! (I believe this was the last year they had Revon, sorry, Veron?) 
Glad to hear you're enjoying PES 2014, an underappreciated installment!
@MKC I'm not sure if you play PC or Console PES 2018.. If it's on PC, I recommend you try this gameplay mod. (courtesy of @nesa24)
I like playing PA1 because of stats weight and other preferences. However, this gameplay mod should work with any pass setting! I am playing it with Top Player, 16 minutes, and having a blast with it! One thing I love about this mod is that it completely fixes the defensive issue, where players in the vanilla game take too long to close down space. I'm finding it a challenge in TP (I've heard Superstar is a bit too much momentum-based), and the gameplay is playing very realistically.
Glad to hear you're enjoying PES 2014, an underappreciated installment!@MKC I'm not sure if you play PC or Console PES 2018.. If it's on PC, I recommend you try this gameplay mod. (courtesy of @nesa24)
I like playing PA1 because of stats weight and other preferences. However, this gameplay mod should work with any pass setting!
I am playing it with Top Player, 16 minutes, and having a blast with it! One thing I love about this mod is that it completely fixes the defensive issue, where players in the vanilla game take too long to close down space. I'm finding it a challenge in TP (I've heard Superstar is a bit too much momentum-based), and the gameplay is playing very realistically.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Did enjoy it, felt very different from most pes ive played@rockstrongo nice! Against Estudiantes de la Plata, no less! (I believe this was the last year they had Revon, sorry, Veron?)
@MKC I'm not sure if you play PC or Console PES 2018.. If it's on PC, I recommend you try this gameplay mod. (courtesy of @nesa24)
I like playing PA1 because of stats weight and other preferences. However, this gameplay mod should work with any pass setting!
MKC
Garra! Força! Tradição!
I appreciate the tip, sadly I play on PS4 though. I hope to build a PC in the future that can actually handle things from 2003 and above, sadly I'm using hardware that can at best run video games that are 20 years old, without having issues that is. I'm preparing for the time I can build my dream PC though, already downloaded the PES2011 camera tool just in case the download links ever stop working, PES2011's cameras weren't my cup of tea to be honest.@MKC I'm not sure if you play PC or Console PES 2018.. If it's on PC, I recommend you try this gameplay mod. (courtesy of @nesa24)
Heisenberg
Conference
Marvelous!can be done, i thought people prefer drag n drop, but easily when you clic and move with the key arrows you'll be able to move the dot too
can be done too, this includes each formation stots? strategy A and B ? also i can add a function to export/ import the data so everyone can import formations with copy and paste
also this is the format i decided to follow for now (picture from pes2008 editor)
View attachment 195678
question, its useful having the players at your left? or should i remove it? or only put the first eleven?
thanks for your words
By the way, will it be possible to copy the training data from a Pes 6 Option file?
marqisspes6
International
- 16 January 2012
export/import would be very nice indeed
Perfect, its gonna be part of the tool
definitely keep the player list. the 1st 11 is most important but i'd keep the whole squad. two reasons:
1 - you can identify who is who on the pitch if you have a list with names & numbers (& player roles but ideally the roles would be shown in the pitch window).
2 - if you wanted to create a tactic and share a screenshot (
Get it, that's fine, but only thing i can't give you for now because is out of my range of knowledge/is a pain in the ass to get it done and may cause too many unwanted bugs is drag and drop from that list of players, example replace the goalkeeper, you have to go back into the main screen
yes, all data that you can manipulate from PES Editor will be there
I know, in fact i was burning my head trying to fix that part, but maybe what i can give you is a button to switch between DORSAL NUMBER/ROLE/OFFENSIVE/DEFENSIVE ARROWS displays on pitch, as for now i can only offer the first two but im working on the last four on screen, i couldn't properly get it working with the four together, i know pes editor use some dots for defensive but i wanted to replicate the pes formation internal setting and use arrows depending on the lenght of each will be a type of defense, low normal high, also the setting for this wont be a dot, will be more a combobox, but i could use something like 3 option buttons (i know is a little tech term but google them and you'll get it), what do you think of this?
as for the pitch, it will be the one from the video it covers the basic needs and is not that bad for the eyes, oh and also will include limitations by position/role, last time i was working on that in fact
good to know this too
I dont think i can implement this, unless you or someone knows how does it works in game or any other alternative it aint a bad idea, but it won't be a priority for now as i wanna cover the basic needs
I could try to do that, never did but sounds like something that could be implemented easily or i could try to trigger shift + win + s key combo
I know the one from pes editor handles pretty good the formation setting, but not gonna lie some stuff get hard to do it or redo, but i promise i'll try to get as close as pes fan editor gets, but on my approach too
you can still use both or only one, mostly asking you since you're the expert on the formation window and if i can improve something that is not perfect i will
does this data stores on the option file? or it has a separated file? separated files from the game have another priority for me as i wanna do some kind of master league save editor for pes5/we9/le but i need to study better the file first
Thanks for This OF. I played a few matches in JLWE9AC and I can say that it is a beautiful game. For me in the top 3 of all time. Next to WE7Ij and JLWE2008. Fighting in midfield, first touch, lots of fouls, AI. Better than WE9LE for me. I have the feeling that PS2 games look more solid, although maybe it's Placebo.If anyone is interested in an option file for J.League Winning Eleven 9 Asia Championship, here is one made by Adrian Ferrari that he uploaded a couple of months ago but the link has expired so I have reuploaded it here.
Here is a link to his original video on YouTube:
It's a dream for such games to receive an OF update for the current season.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Quick question.
i want to update my PES 2014 ,ive dl DLC 1-7 (BIN CPK FILES)
do i just copy paste them in?
one by one?
or does 7 cover all previous ones?
i want to update my PES 2014 ,ive dl DLC 1-7 (BIN CPK FILES)
do i just copy paste them in?
one by one?
or does 7 cover all previous ones?
Ozymandiaz1920
Non-League
- 31 May 2022
Tried installing it but when I click on save config it says only no DVD exe supported.
Chenghis.Khan
WE9LE
- 1 August 2009
no problem. drag & drop in main screen is fine
for me personally it's extremely important to be able to capture the whole thing in a single screenshot. if i had to switch across display modes to get all the information i would honestly just keep using pes fan editor. i might be the only person with this specific requirement tho.
is it very important to you to display the defensive arrows as actual arrows?
you could instead color the player symbol in of 3 colors indicating the defensive setting for example. so a circle colored in either black/white/lightblue/darkblue and the number and or role written inside and the usual attacking arrows in white on the outside?
like this:
or maybe make the grey one white or whatever.
or this:
inside arrow color or text color depending on defensive setting.
edit: last idea:
borders around the circle in color of defensive setting. just use much thicker borders. my paint skills have limits.
that's nice.
you just made me think of something.
just a crazy idea.
do you think it could be possible to allow positioning a striker or defender role in the midfield area? for example in the default pes 5 OF, konami placed barca's ronaldinho as SS in the midfield zone, a few clicks deeper than allowed for forwards. something that you can't do ingame or in pes fan editor.
not sure if i would actually use this often but i'm curious.
I dont think i can implement this, unless you or someone knows how does it works in game or any other alternative it aint a bad idea, but it won't be a priority for now as i wanna cover the basic needs
yes it's not important at all.
i have no idea how the algorithm works.
I know the one from pes editor handles pretty good the formation setting, but not gonna lie some stuff get hard to do it or redo, but i promise i'll try to get as close as pes fan editor gets, but on my approach too
you can still use both or only one, mostly asking you since you're the expert on the formation window and if i can improve something that is not perfect i will
you're doing great work man!
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marqisspes6
International
- 16 January 2012
Love the whole idea! I will try to find a solution for offensive arrows i have an idea, i hope it doesnt make the movement of players too slow
no problem. drag & drop in main screen is fine
sadly... drag n drop is actually an issue to implement, not gonna lie to you, so i solve that using buttons, to release, to transfer, to swap selected players and to swap all players in team, in fact im developing this for pes11-14 on ps2, psp and 3ds so far is what they got
I mean, i could just not put limits for position more than the pitch limits, putting only colours as reference, so yeah you can do it, i manage to do it via cheat engine with a few players, putting a CBT in the AMF zone, i didnt notice any crash, only crash that i notice? putting all offensive arrows in a players hahaha i haven't check the limit if im honest i was mostly playing around
Chenghis.Khan
WE9LE
- 1 August 2009
more than two arrows also sounds very interesting!
if it is not a problem then removing the positioning limits would be nice. maybe use a toggle button to enforce/remove limits.
i could imagine a new solution for replicating Messi or Totti as F9 by giving them the AM role but placing them inside the box or something like that.
Or Beckenbauer in line with the CBs but as CM....
marqisspes6
International
- 16 January 2012
more than two arrows also sounds very interesting!
after some stable release i will give it a try
we can force this changes, but probably the game will erase them if we enter to update those changes from the in game editor, that's the only thing to keep in mind
inter-x27
RB at ML United
- 26 June 2020
- Marseille // FC Barcelona
random question : what is your favourite PES/ISS/WE in terms of user interface (menus, aesthetic, etc..) ?
MKC
Garra! Força! Tradição!
As someone that loves graphic design and UIs in general, I could go on for a while talking about this.
I'm not really into the first few Winning Eleven installments, as they have that 90's arcade styled UI, it works, but to me that's about all it does.
PES3 is where I start to really like it, the style they went for, a sort of futuristic computer vibe from old films, is well made and consistent, the OST helps too.
PES4, PES5 and PES6 didn't really do it for me, it felt like they went back into the sort of style from early Winning Eleven installments, which works, but still.
PES2008 looked stunning, very sophisticated and with a color scheme that was easy on the eyes, also loved seeing the bench in the pause menu.
PES2009 and PES2010 went with a hip vibe, graffiti and stuff, not really my thing, some of my least favorite, though they functioned well enough.
PES2011 is the best one and it's not even close... elegant and sophisticated, without sacrificing functionality, it's just perfect and feels modern even today,
PES2012 was not as good to me, but the core was the same, so it's a close 2nd, not only in looks, but function, like the game plan screen introduced earlier.
PES2013 was fine, but a downgrade in every way, and it's here that menus started turning a bit more uninspired.
PES2014 doesn't look that bad, besides the main menu, but it runs so poorly that it left a bad taste in my mouth, I don't like looking at it.
PES2015 and PES2016 both had almost the same menu and it looked good, worked good, but nothing more than that.
PES2017 had huge square boxes with very little text, a lot of empty space, don't like it.
PES2018 is better, but still not good.
PES2019 had a bright look, big images that fit the whole box, a nice styling... I like it, just wish it was consistent, to many things still have square corners.
PES2020 and PES2021 were a downgrade in my eyes, the issues were still there, but the best parts were gone, I don't like it much.
eFootball2022 and eFootball2023 have decent ideas, but the execution hurts my eyes, especially the color scheme and fonts, it's such a waste...
vialli82
International
- 4 September 2005
- Juventus
Well the big difference is that when they switched on WE7 to a new engine, they did them themselve and it was more about graphisms/animations but their mojo was all around ball physics. The changes wasn't that gigant for example like a pitch 15% bigger, or 360 degree or even thing that force them completely to change the game.
They accumulated experience and the engine didn't got any secret for them. I ain't neither a fan of WE9LE, i found it faster than PES 5 which was already faster than WE9. PES 5 got the right balance, and especially regarding fault (WE9 was my favourite version but after retrying... There's way too much fault for nothing. Got almost 35-40 fault in 2 games)
Well i like PES 2008 PS2 too (also the PS3 version with the recoil we got : it's a very deep game in fact.. Just not what we expected on 2007).
Then i tried WE 2008 : it's a bit like JL2008CC but with NT. To me those PS2 2008 version are the most balanced regarding fun, action, scoring, fault, variety, they did. Even PES 2008 which is a bit faster is still balanced by others type of errors > i noticed more miss in shooting for example.
When they add things, they often miss the spot like for PES 6 then they correct it quickly and with ease on the "final evolution" version.
The big thing with 2008 version is they didn't added special things in comparison to PES 6.
And to me, the fact that PES 5 era games was so different than the others was about the control when you dribble : the automatic "outside foot" push to avoid an opponent was very game changing. I won't lie : it's something that i loved in the past but when you relativise : you lost the simple turn "forward, down" and i believe it's better to have it as an option with R2 like on others versions... But it's really fun to dribble that way, you lost one thing but you gain another one.
@MKC : one thing about presentation i hated on PES was about the names over the head and forced to play like this, i don't like neither having no bar with names above. I hated it, visual pollution to me. I don't care when it's around the pitch like score, bar names, and i often look at the radar, but that thing...
I was like "finally..." with a breath of despair when they restored it for PES 2015.
The issue is there's no mods to change it. And the cursor alone act weirdly, it moves around the players head.
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
anyone with a good patch fpr PES 2017, on PC.
Dont need much kits and badges corrected mainly
im on 1.00
Dont need much kits and badges corrected mainly
im on 1.00
Here is link for JLWE9C english patch. Just apply widescreen patch and is normal game without bugs.
https://sharemods.com/ivt4xy0e4yyr/WE9JLACENG.rar.html
I love your commitment to retro pes/we. May more people share your enthusiasm and the world of retro pes/we will be better. Thanks to you and others I fell in love with this series again and I just enjoy playing the game. Thank you.
Like you, I think there was a little more automatism in the game from previous years, but it was combined with our actions on the pitch that created this PES/WE honey that dripped from the TV. Now everyone wants to be responsible for every move and every centimeter of the pitch and that's not possible in my opinion. This game is supposed to be fun, not super realism. It's just my opinion.
vialli82
International
- 4 September 2005
- Juventus
Firstly, thanks @picaaa for your kind words mate.
I wasn't retro during a moment, but i share all i learned during the time i edited players-transfers and "studying" stats and the rest since PES 2 (Before, i just renammed players, it was the only possibility)
I have a question about Option File through : i don't see the change between a "decrypted" and "encrypted" O.F., here on PES 2014.
No idea for what purpose there's decryption. I still can do what i want with encrypted O.F.
I wasn't retro during a moment, but i share all i learned during the time i edited players-transfers and "studying" stats and the rest since PES 2 (Before, i just renammed players, it was the only possibility)
I have a question about Option File through : i don't see the change between a "decrypted" and "encrypted" O.F., here on PES 2014.
No idea for what purpose there's decryption. I still can do what i want with encrypted O.F.
Marlon Anthony
Purist
I love this post, I feel like the menu's don't get enough credit and scrutiny in the series. The sights and sounds of each menu experience in the series is just as special and as unique as the experience on the pitch in each version too.
PES 1-3 feel much of their time going for that near future look/techno look and feel with the synths and industrial electro that was present in most PS2 games and menu's in the early 2000's.
I loved the menu music that was produced in house around the period of PES 4 to 6, repetitive at the time; sure.... But now it's iconic amongst retro PES fans, The 7 minute "Edit Mode Funk Jam" is now synonymous with the heyday of ingame editing before the convenience of option files became more well known.
From then on they went on to use licensed music with less known underground bands which much like FIFA, introduced me to artists I'd never even heard of that I listen to now and once Konami's budget got bigger, they started incorporating mainstream pop music into it's menus'. Can't blame them but in someway, it's almost symbolic as the turning point in Konami selling out against the game's original core values and selling virtual currency and neglecting everything else about the game to the point the games image & commercial appeal was a priority and everything else was an afterthought.
And while we're on the subject of menus' and it's aesthetic, it's mind boggling how even when you want to make money and in order to do that, you've got to be eye catching, they've gone for the most offensive looking GUI of all time and it just makes no sense.
Anyway, my own 2 cents... Favourite menu is that classy PES 2011 menu. It's just so slick.
I also loved the 3D render menus' of PES 2015 to 2017, until they cluttered all of that up with an unnecessary tile for just about everything. What the absolute heck.