The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[Shikashi]

It's not pure rubbish actually, PS2 PES has better animation than any next-gen effort for 2 reasons:

• The first being that they string together better and the mo-cap is much more precise and reactive, even if the hit detection is based around canned animation;
• The second being that it pushed the PS2's hardware to a much larger degree than any next-gen PES has pushed the hardware it runs on;

So, yes, PS2 PES has better animation than next-gen PES. And the technology used is still loosely the same, which is ridiculous by itself.

Go look at any other game released this generation and the animation problems become glaring. You don't even need to look much further than other sports titles. NBA 2K and MLB: The Show serving as the yardstick.

PES just don't have the money to do the animations you want.

My question is why the hell you expect PES to cope with FIFA in animations and aesthetics. FIFA has fifty times the budget PES does, FIFA has tons and tones of licensees! It has a far bigger development team. I mean it's fine you prefer his game. Just why hammer PES for things it can't do?

Bullshit. Konami is the one who delayed the transition to a new engine as long as they could. When they have enough resources to create a completely new engine for MGS 4 and then ditch that same engine for any new Metal Gear games, or any other game on their portfolio, Konami doesn't seem to be hurting for money, they're spending it like kings. Do you have any idea how much that game cost them? $50-$60 million. What did they salvage from development? Absolutely nothing from a technical point of view. Do you know what the average game costs to make in a next-gen console? $18-$28 million. So don't talk to me about how poor and how much of an underdog Konami is. It's bullshit.
They have outdated technology because they felt that PES was so over with the football crowd that they could do no wrong and would get away with simply upscaling the PS2 game to HD. And they even failed to do that considering the amount of framerate issues that PES 2008 had.

Their problem is that they're run by idiots, not that they don't have enough resources. These people had some of the best selling franchises last gen, how exactly were they hurting for money 5 or 6 years ago? They weren't. They were simply too stubborn to do anything future-proof with PES, and now it backfired on them.

I hammer FIFA for it's generic build with it's first touch and lack of momentum and inertia which makes every player move so dam perfect so you have too much control and it's too easy and fantasy like. Not to mention the scripted sweetspot goals, the hundreds of bugs, far more than even PES which is very bad for bugs. Even when you use slider, it's still the same crap, just slow. Thing is EA could fix this if they want, PES just don't have the money to do the animations you want.

Generic build? No. You can play FIFA 12 however you want to. Teams don't play the same way unless you force them to.
Too much control is easy and fantasy like? This is a video game, it's not real life. You are supposed to have all the control you can manage. Next-gen PES supporters seem to completely disregard video game fundamentals in order to excuse PES.
Bugs are fixed through patches.
Scripted sweetspot? Never witnessed those. What you call "scripted sweetspots" are actually ball physics and realism coming into play. There are certain zones on the pitch where most goals are scored from. You think that's unrealistic?
Saying that the sliders do nothing is incorrect. They do plenty, unless everyone who creates and shares slider settings is on a placebo effect.

So don't tell me about how poor Konami is being outclassed by EA because of budget constraints.
Or how lack of player control is realistic in a video game.

If you like PES, fine. More power to you. I don't. I have explained in detail why that is.

 

[ccshopland]

Whilst I disagree with some points Shikashi, regarding the playability of PES, I can certainly see your points and very much agree with the core principles of such forums like Evo-Web that everyone is entitled to their opinion and you state your issues clearly and concisely.

Klash, Shikashi has outlined in great detail why he doesn't like the game, and he is not in the minority I don't think. I can get something out of the game, if played a certain way, but even I, a PES fanatic, cannot look over some glaringly bad faults with the game that Shik has touched upon.

Now the problem that this site is facing, much like WENB and the FIFA forums the last few years is that loyalists get so damn protective over their game that they simply cannot accept or see anybody else's logic or opinion. I have always hated the FIFA forums, hated them with a passion, and I have also held up the PES forums as a place for mature debate as most people 'PES' can talk the hind legs of a donkey. BUT, I really do fear this year that we in the PES community, are getting way, way too precious with OUR game and on the contrary, people on the FIFA forums for once are having a mature debate. I wouldn't hold FIFA up as this be all and end all of a game mind, as there is just as much hate for FIFA as there is for PES this year.

But what I will say is that anybody who has an anti-PES stance this year, even after giving their reasons, is still flamed for being some kind of Judas. I hate what WENB has become for example, some little Adam love-in where nothing bad can be said about PES - it's just pathetic. This site I love for it's diversity of people and opinion. And we must respect each others opinions that some people just don't like the game this year, may be even the vast majority of people.

 

[klashman69]

It's not pure rubbish actually, PS2 PES has better animation than any next-gen effort for 2 reasons:

• The first being that they string together better and the mo-cap is much more precise and reactive, even if the hit detection is based around canned animation;

• 
  
  They string together well on the PS1 also with ISS Evolution, then again they are running in 16 directions. they didn't have to bother with pressure sensitive dribbling either. Or all the little stat driven mechanics in the dribbling. Or the general movements.
  
  I mean if your talking PES 2012, fine, but in PES 2012. NO, I'm sorry, no. I mean I'm not saying it's brilliant but PES 2012 have moved on a lot since the PS2 totally on rails days.
  
  

  [*]The second being that it pushed the PS2's hardware to a much larger degree than any next-gen PES has pushed the hardware it runs on;

and how much cheaper was it to make PS2 game compared to PS3. Games nowadays cost as much as movies, no, REALLY the case back then was it?

Go look at any other game released this generation and the animation problems become glaring. You don't even need to look much further than other sports titles. NBA 2K and MLB: The Show serving as the yardstick.

All made with a far, far bigger budget than PES, not just that, look at Japanesee games in general. They simply don't have the money that Western companies like EA and 2K and Take Two have.

Bullshit. Konami is the one who delayed the transition to a new engine as long as they could. When they have enough resources to create a completely new engine for MGS 4 and then ditch that same engine for any new Metal Gear games, or any other game on their portfolio, Konami doesn't seem to be hurting for money, they're spending it like kings.

Do you have any idea how much that game cost them? $50-$60 million.

EXACTLY! For gods, sake! Dam the stupidity! Do you think they can spend that kind of money and more on every game like EA do?

No, I'm not defending Konami for the piss poor PES 6, 2008, 2009 and the broken 2010, but the fact they have been really trying with a modest budget the last two years an produced good games, yes, i think people should take some stock of what Konami are working with.

Now compare that to EA sports who created an whole new engine, not just for FIFA, but for ALL their sports titles back in 2005. They had the money to do that. How much money you think that cost, and look how many games that covered (FIFA, NBA, NHL, NFL, Tiger Woods,) hence why they created that engine?

How many other sports games do Konami have? Infact what other games do Konami have? Apart from MGS and Silent Hill?

And that's just EA Sports, not EA as an entire company. Konami don't have a subsidiary department, they are NOWHERE NEAR as big as EA, they are in different worlds in terms of spending power.

Can't you even see in the marketing of FIFA compared to PES? PES is lucky to have a week worth of adverts in England. FIFA i think have already had 3! Maybe four, lost count how much they throw out! They are on all year!

Absolutely no perspective whatsoever!

What did they salvage from development? Absolutely nothing from a technical point of view. Do you know what the average game costs to make in a next-gen console? $18-$28 million. So don't talk to me about how poor and how much of an underdog Konami is. It's bullshit.

They are an underdog, you need to accept it. They just do not have the money anymore to keep up with technology, the fact this game is still light years away from FIFA in terms of tactics, individuality and depth footballing wise for it's gameplay.

For all it's brilliant tech, however you play FIFA it's a very, very simple game. Simple arcade game (look for speetspots) Simple simulation game (manual makes looking for sweetspots a bit harder) PES in my opinion excels as an arcade game if you want to play it that way and as a tactical more sim game, if you want to play it that way or find your own balance. Despite the bugs, and there's a lot.

They have outdated technology because they felt that PES was so over with the football crowd that they could do no wrong and would get away with simply upscaling the PS2 game to HD. And they even failed to do that considering the amount of framerate issues that PES 2008 had.

No, they had, and i used the term HAD outdated tech for a long time and have only recently since 2010 updated to a decent level, not brilliant by any means. PES 6-2010 where HD PS2 games. 2011-2012 are anything but! If you think PES 2012 is PS2 tech worthy your just angry, simple!

Their problem is that they're run by idiots, not that they don't have enough resources. These people had some of the best selling franchises last gen, how exactly were they hurting for money 5 or 6 years ago? They weren't. They were simply too stubborn to do anything future-proof with PES, and now it backfired on them.

I'm sorry, do you think every company is run like Arsenal? Where the board is sucking the club dry? Konami aren't making loads of money and just not bothering to update their game, they don't have much money compared to FIFA and compared to most Western titles. Simple, this is obvious! You have a modest budget against EA's tech which is the most advanced in the business Sports wise, it's better than 2ks, even if NBA 2k is ten times the game FIFA is!

Generic build? No. You can play FIFA 12 however you want to. Teams don't play the same way unless you force them to.

No, they all do, i played FIFA 12 at my mates and tried every dam slider setting, i could still with ease dominate games with any average team i picked vs a top side because the AI DO NOT CLOSE YOU DOWN, unless you enter their area, the game is so broken in single player, it's laughable. EA do market their game well to mask their dire flaws.

Multiplayer is better, but boring and so dull the generic feel of every player. FIFA 08 showed momentum and inertia, it showed things FIFA 12, but they refuse to implement because kids wont be able to easily do skills past 6 players and score. It's a game for anyone who just wants to pick up and play with no fuss. It could be both this and tactical if EA pull their finger out, but oh no.

As someone who brought both FIFA and PES since 1996, FIFA 11 was the last straw. FIFA 12 is just insulting peoples intelligence, just like the elite who take away peoples freedoms with all sorts of bullshit laws to fight the invisible war against terrorism (Your statistically more likely to be killed by a bee, than a terrorist, look it up!)

Too much control is easy and fantasy like? This is a video game, it's not real life.

Too much control = Do whatever with whoever = no need for much tactics = arcadey style approach to the game

Sorry those type of games bore me. Too easy and repetitive.

The issue is that they show the capability of implementing inertia and momentum, plus a decent first touch mechanic back in 2008, but refuse to do it now. That's my problem. Not, like you hammer Konami for do things it can't i hammer EA for doing things it can do but doesn't want to.

This is my argument. Your wasting your time hating on PES for the game it's never going to be.

Yes it is a dam video game. You think it's acceptable the amount of money which goes into them? Look at Greece! Look at Africa, look at starving kids, but it's ok, for so much money to go into games?

If your going to hammer PES, hammer the CPU superman GOD at times, hammer the shooting, hammer, the crap crowd noise, hammer the presentation which is poor (Graphics, pitch elements, crowd) don't expect the animations to be on FIFA's level, i'm sorry that's true bullshit

Scripted sweetspot? Never witnessed those. What you call "scripted sweetspots" are actually ball physics and realism coming into play.

Finesee shot from 45 degrees like you scored with Ronaldinho in the GIF. This exploit has been there since 09, and shows no signs of being removed. I mean it's right there in front of your face. Defending on FIFA is about pushing the player to an angle where they are never going to score.

 

[klashman69]

Whilst I disagree with some points Shikashi, regarding the playability of PES, I can certainly see your points and very much agree with the core principles of such forums like Evo-Web that everyone is entitled to their opinion and you state your issues clearly and concisely.

Klash, Shikashi has outlined in great detail why he doesn't like the game, and he is not in the minority I don't think. I can get something out of the game, if played a certain way, but even I, a PES fanatic, cannot look over some glaringly bad faults with the game that Shik has touched upon.

Now the problem that this site is facing, much like WENB and the FIFA forums the last few years is that loyalists get so damn protective over their game that they simply cannot accept or see anybody else's logic or opinion. I have always hated the FIFA forums, hated them with a passion, and I have also held up the PES forums as a place for mature debate as most people 'PES' can talk the hind legs of a donkey. BUT, I really do fear this year that we in the PES community, are getting way, way too precious with OUR game and on the contrary, people on the FIFA forums for once are having a mature debate. I wouldn't hold FIFA up as this be all and end all of a game mind, as there is just as much hate for FIFA as there is for PES this year.

But what I will say is that anybody who has an anti-PES stance this year, even after giving their reasons, is still flamed for being some kind of Judas. I hate what WENB has become for example, some little Adam love-in where nothing bad can be said about PES - it's just pathetic. This site I love for it's diversity of people and opinion. And we must respect each others opinions that some people just don't like the game this year, may be even the vast majority of people.

As you can see, my point I'm raising here is a lesson in life.

NEVER LOSE PERSPECTIVE and DON'T BE NEGATIVE FOR THE SAKE OF IT!

I don't care for peoples opinion on PES, love it, hate it, don't matter. It really don't matter, it's just a video game! It won't save a dying child's life or cure somebody's cancer/diabetes.

What i think is a joke is people hate PES and love FIFA and moan about PES's animations and say they should be on FIFA's level. Yet EA spend 10 times more on their game, compared to Konami.

It's like saying Everton are shit because they can''t get Champions League, yet the teams getting into the champions league spend, what 50/100 Million more than they do?

I think most of Konami's budget is maxed out on scraping all the licensees they can get. Football games are BIG buisness, Konami can't cope financially with EA, they should be admired for still being around with EA's stranglehold.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

All made with a far, far bigger budget than PES, not just that, look at Japanesee games in general. They simply don't have the money that Western companies like EA and 2K and Take Two have.

Konami's baseball game on PS3... Good graphics, Good animations and Amazing sound.

YouTube - Field Play Intro & Tutorial - Pro Yakyuu Spirits 2011

YouTube - Pro Baseball Spirits 2011 - Spot TV Jap - PS3

Now not as good as MLB but not that far away and it's certainly on another level to Konami's football game.

 

[Shikashi]

They string together well on the PS1 also with ISS Evolution, then again they are running in 16 directions. they didn't have to bother with pressure sensitive dribbling either. Or all the little stat driven mechanics in the dribbling. Or the general movements.

I mean if your talking PES 2012, fine, but in PES 2012. NO, I'm sorry, no. I mean I'm not saying it's brilliant but PES 2012 have moved on a lot since the PS2 totally on rails days


and how much cheaper was it to make PS2 game compared to PS3. Games nowadays cost as much as movies, no, REALLY the case back then was it?



All made with a far, far bigger budget than PES, not just that, look at Japanesee games in general. They simply don't have the money that Western companies like EA and 2K and Take Two have.




EXACTLY! For gods, sake! Dam the stupidity! Do you think they can spend that kind of money and more on every game like EA do?

No, I'm not defending Konami for the piss poor PES 6, 2008, 2009 and the broken 2010, but the fact they have been really trying with a modest budget the last two years an produced good games, yes, i think people should take some stock of what Konami are working with.

Now compare that to EA sports who created an whole new engine, not just for FIFA, but for ALL their sports titles back in 2005. They had the money to do that. How much money you think that cost, and look how many games that covered (FIFA, NBA, NHL, NFL, Tiger Woods,) hence why they created that engine?

How many other sports games do Konami have? Infact what other games do Konami have? Apart from MGS and Silent Hill?

And that's just EA Sports, not EA as an entire company. Konami don't have a subsidiary department, they are NOWHERE NEAR as big as EA, they are in different worlds in terms of spending power.

Can't you even see in the marketing of FIFA compared to PES? PES is lucky to have a week worth of adverts in England. FIFA i think have already had 3! Maybe four, lost count how much they throw out! They are on all year!

Absolutely no perspective whatsoever!



They are an underdog, you need to accept it. They just do not have the money anymore to keep up with technology, the fact this game is still light years away from FIFA in terms of tactics, individuality and depth footballing wise for it's gameplay.

For all it's brilliant tech, however you play FIFA it's a very, very simple game. Simple arcade game (look for speetspots) Simple simulation game (manual makes looking for sweetspots a bit harder) PES in my opinion excels as an arcade game if you want to play it that way and as a tactical more sim game, if you want to play it that way or find your own balance. Despite the bugs, and there's a lot.



No, they had, and i used the term HAD outdated tech for a long time and have only recently since 2010 updated to a decent level, not brilliant by any means. PES 6-2010 where HD PS2 games. 2011-2012 are anything but! If you think PES 2012 is PS2 tech worthy your just angry, simple!



I'm sorry, do you think every company is run like Arsenal? Where the board is sucking the club dry? Konami aren't making loads of money and just not bothering to update their game, they don't have much money compared to FIFA and compared to most Western titles. Simple, this is obvious! You have a modest budget against EA's tech which is the most advanced in the business Sports wise, it's better than 2ks, even if NBA 2k is ten times the game FIFA is!



No, they all do, i played FIFA 12 at my mates and tried every dam slider setting, i could still with ease dominate games with any average team i picked vs a top side because the AI DO NOT CLOSE YOU DOWN, unless you enter their area, the game is so broken in single player, it's laughable. EA do market their game well to mask their dire flaws.

Multiplayer is better, but boring and so dull the generic feel of every player. FIFA 08 showed momentum and inertia, it showed things FIFA 12, but they refuse to implement because kids wont be able to easily do skills past 6 players and score. It's a game for anyone who just wants to pick up and play with no fuss. It could be both this and tactical if EA pull their finger out, but oh no.

As someone who brought both FIFA and PES since 1996, FIFA 11 was the last straw. FIFA 12 is just insulting peoples intelligence, just like the elite who take away peoples freedoms with all sorts of bullshit laws to fight the invisible war against terrorism (Your statistically more likely to be killed by a bee, than a terrorist, look it up!)



Too much control = Do whatever with whoever = no need for much tactics = arcadey style approach to the game

Sorry those type of games bore me. Too easy and repetitive.

The issue is that they show the capability of implementing inertia and momentum, plus a decent first touch mechanic back in 2008, but refuse to do it now. That's my problem. Not, like you hammer Konami for do things it can't i hammer EA for doing things it can do but doesn't want to.

This is my argument. Your wasting your time hating on PES for the game it's never going to be.

Yes it is a dam video game. You think it's acceptable the amount of money which goes into them? Look at Greece! Look at Africa, look at starving kids, but it's ok, for so much money to go into games?

If your going to hammer PES, hammer the CPU superman GOD at times, hammer the shooting, hammer, the crap crowd noise, hammer the presentation which is poor (Graphics, pitch elements, crowd) don't expect the animations to be on FIFA's level, i'm sorry that's true bullshit



Finesee shot from 45 degrees like you scored with Ronaldinho in the GIF. This exploit has been there since 09, and shows no signs of being removed. I mean it's right there in front of your face. Defending on FIFA is about pushing the player to an angle where they are never going to score.

We have different perspectives about this then, which is fine by me. I appreciate that you have taken the time to explain why you have your views. It's far better than the usual bickering about who hates what. By no means do I hate PES, it's because I have such fond memories of it that I care about the franchise even after all this time and the bitchslaps that Konami has given me for the past few years.

I still believe Konami took the easy way out and decided to hold out from creating a new engine for next-gen. It's short-sighted on their part, because if they had developed a proprietary animation engine, like EA did, they would have no problems implementing it on every single one of their games.
Using EA to exemplify, Battlefield 3 and all their sports titles share the same animation engine, ANT. Had Konami invested back in 2006, they could easily be doing the same thing. Because they didn't, they now need to use different engines for every game. Now the teams at Konami are being forced to paint on old, burned out canvas. They can be the best painters in the world, but the end result will always be bad. And I dare say that the animation team at the PES team is much more talented than FIFA's, but their old technology is holding them back.

Now the problem that this site is facing, much like WENB and the FIFA forums the last few years is that loyalists get so damn protective over their game that they simply cannot accept or see anybody else's logic or opinion. I have always hated the FIFA forums, hated them with a passion, and I have also held up the PES forums as a place for mature debate as most people 'PES' can talk the hind legs of a donkey. BUT, I really do fear this year that we in the PES community, are getting way, way too precious with OUR game and on the contrary, people on the FIFA forums for once are having a mature debate. I wouldn't hold FIFA up as this be all and end all of a game mind, as there is just as much hate for FIFA as there is for PES this year.

I have given up on both those places. FIFA forums are a joke. 13 year old kids discussing which cleats to include in the game instead of pointing out the flaws in the game and giving useful feedback. WENB is nothing but a circle jerk about how great PES will be next year.
I'd rather discuss thing over here, there are still some people who have some proper feedback and ideas for the games.

 

[ojejku]

Shikashi, I totally agree with you. This is also my view why the PES franchise has become what it is now over the years on the current gen. It's clear to me and I'm sure others also, from the time perspective that it was a bad decision. I mean the lack of 'big picture/vision' and investments. To be honest, I work as system engineer for about 6 years and I call that 'common sense' in the IT industry so I can't even understand why they made such decision, especially taking into account how long the are on the market (Game Industry). I don't think so that the money was 'the reason'. It's not even about the Game Industry, it's about the IT Industry as a whole which is evolving so quickly (hardware, software, revolutionary ideas etc), the 'IT' world does not stand still and if you want to 'stay' on the market and be competitive you have to invest and 'change the world'. I don't even mention things like the investments in the software engineers' creativity etc, I'm sure that all developers at Konami would love to make things that will 'change the world' rather than boring/not evolving amendments in the source code from the previous year game. Of course there are exceptions as in every single area in the world...

@ccshopland, great post too. There is a lot of truth there..

 

[Northzzz]

I don't think either Fifa or PES' animations are 'better' really. They both are pretty unrealistic but in very different ways. Fifa is simply too streamlined with a lot of its animations. You only have to look at how players turn on the ball to see that. Half the time it defies natural body movement and the players push the ball with too much ease and precision that i just cannot take the way they dribble seriously for the most part. Tone the speed down a bit and they'd be on to a winner but right now everybody moves with body balance and precision of Messi when on the ball. I acknowledge it's less of an issue with the look of the animations, but more of an issue with how they're used (i.e being too free and sped up). A lot of the time Fifa players don't feel rigid enough, instead feeling like they're flailing about like the whack waving inflatable arm waving tube man. That said that's mostly an issue i have with dribbling in Fifa. I think the 'push' animation to get it past a man is an example of a really good animation in Fifa. You can see it in 1 or 2 of the above gifs.

PES on the other hand is too static a lot of the time and i don't think the animations are dynamic enough. I think that's kind of evident to anybody who has played it. PES really has no push past a man animation like Fifa, i think it's a pretty necessary addition to make the game more dynamic. I think its shown in the last gif that the player doesn't react to the unique situation of trying to beat a man. He just dribbles as he would if he wasn't there. The only person reacting to that situation animation-wise is the defender who sticks a leg out.

That said i agree with Klash and think it's futile to compare the two because of the overbearing differences between the games at large. I think both games on their own make for interesting discussion about how to improve or better use the animations they currently have.

 

[romagnoli]

My issues with FIFA's animations is that they often seem to be curtailed too soon, in terms of passing especially. They also often seem too upright, and the game doesn't seem to have any animations to push off with the passing foot as soon as it plants, in the way PES does. So a player making a give and go pass will, rather than lean into the run, suddenly just start moving off in that direction. Usually pointing as well, which is overdone frankly. I'd rather players occasionally put their arms out to complain that they didn't get the pass - pointing is inelegant, as Dennis Bergkamp would say.

Oh, and also there isn't much of a snap to most of the passes. I think a certain amount of this is a sacrifice for the sake of better responsiveness with the passing power bar - the game decides which animation to use before you've fully decided how much power to put into the pass. But that's why such a slow power bar is a bad idea.

LTFC posted this vid recently in the FIFA 12 vid thread - hope you don't mind mate but most of the passes are particularly good at demonstrating what I mean:

YouTube - Ajax

The issues with PES's are obvious.

 

[Shikashi]

Oh, yeah. There are definitely some issues with FIFA's animation system. The saving grace is that you can somewhat control the animation that will be triggered if you have the right momentum and body shape. FIFA doesn't look like that when I play it, but that's because I try to avoid the game looking goofy as much as possible. The problem is that this causes my game to be restricted to what animation I want to trigger. It can produce some great results at times, very close to actual football, but if you want to play the game with as much freedom as you wish, then the animation system isn't going to very good.

Direction shifts being the worst offender. Which is why I always use RT or LB before I change direction. It's the only way to make it look realistic.

 

[lancers]

Konami's baseball game on PS3... Good graphics, Good animations and Amazing sound.

YouTube - Field Play Intro & Tutorial - Pro Yakyuu Spirits 2011

YouTube - Pro Baseball Spirits 2011 - Spot TV Jap - PS3

Now not as good as MLB but not that far away and it's certainly on another level to Konami's football game.

I had a Japanese BB game for my old Super Nintendo. Might have been Super Bases Loaded I think. Loved that game all you needed was the doohickey that slid into the game slot and the game fit into that. Can you play this game on a US PS3?

 

[Shikashi]

You can play any PS3 game on any PS3. It's region-free.

 

[lancers]

You can play any PS3 game on any PS3. It's region-free.

Nice to know. I guess a trip to eBay is in order. Any place I can find a translation for the manual?

 

[Shikashi]

Of the game? I doubt you'll have an easy time finding that.
I don't know if the game has an "Asia version" or if it's Japanese-only, but if it has an "Asia version", those games tend to be in English. Poor English, but English.

Maybe you can find some sort of help around here.

 

[lancers]

Of the game? I doubt you'll have an easy time finding that.
I don't know if the game has an "Asia version" or if it's Japanese-only, but if it has an "Asia version", those games tend to be in English. Poor English, but English.

Maybe you can find some sort of help around here.

Yeah been over there and found the appropriate forum for translation. Game looks good translation spotty but probably good enough to play the game. Thanks.

 

[trup2foryou]

Just 2 points as I've been reading intently over the past several pages.

1) I think in a weird sort of way, the fact that this thread is still chugging along this long after PES12 was released is a testament to the fact that this game had such a devoted following. Most of us WANT PES to be great again. While I respect JimmyG's posts and viewpoint, I just personally don't agree with them myself (my videos show in great detail where I'm coming from so I'll leave it at that). The very existence of this thread's activity is a testament to a longing for the feeling we used to have back in the PS2 days.

2) To Lami's (and others) point that "they enjoy many games with flaws" I have to wholeheartedly disagree and say that this is an apples/oranges comparison. IMO, a sports title is different from other genres. For example, I really love Skyrim which is a buggy, oftentimes broken affair. But seeing that I've never been a Nord battlemage in my life, nor have I seen or met one, the broken-ness of the game does not pull me out of an otherwise amazing, immersive and compelling world. When I play PES (or any sports games) this is not the case. I can't help but compare what I'm playing to what I actually see on the field on my tv every week. I can't help but compare the behavior of the players in PES (who at the end of the day are all professionals) to my behavior when I played the sport at a pretty decent level. If I have John Terry on my team, he should act LIKE John Terry in a general sort of way. I'm not saying he has to be an exact replica, but his positioning and reaction should generally be in the ballpark and not a large neon sign while I'm playing saying "LOOK AT ME, I'M NOTHING LIKE MY REAL LIFE COUNTERPART". Again, I detail these issues in my vids. While I agree with JimmyG that there are many levels of complexity for controlling things like shooting, passing, offensive movement, etc, I don't see how anything I can do changes the fact that my teammate defenders are complete idiots. I also have not found the magic button sequences that allow my 90 speed forward to gain any ground on any CPU defender regardless of how much slower he is. Unfortunately for me personally, these issues rear their heads to often for me. There are too many times when I pause the game to watch a replay because the way the CPU was able to penetrate my defense made no logical sense to my soccer brain. At the end, it's always terrible positioning, reaction and the CPU ability of inferior players to get past my supposed superior players (not just off a dribble, but to get wide open) that kills it for me.

 

[ccshopland]

Jesus, just had THE most frustrating game of PES ever, professional level, zero assists in Europa League. Man, sometimes the passing system is just so messed up. There were short passes going miles, long passes going two yards, Gerrard was like my nephew passing. It's games like these that give the hate crew all the ammunition they need.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jesus, just had THE most frustrating game of PES ever, professional level, zero assists in Europa League. Man, sometimes the passing system is just so messed up. There were short passes going miles, long passes going two yards, Gerrard was like my nephew passing. It's games like these that give the hate crew all the ammunition they need.

It's about time you learnt the Zero Assist game.

And trust me, once completely comfortable with it, those type of passes are very, very, very rare. I'm playing with a team with an Overall average of 75, and I no longer have any issues of which you speak. The passing system is anything but messed up, it just requires more skill, composure and control. Your paying the price for playing with 3-Bars on Superstar.

I've ordered a Component Cable for my PS3, so as of next week, I'll be able to record PES and the UFC 3 via PVR. I intend to capture one of my offline ML games and then upload for anyone that fancies a look. It's all Zero Assistance and it should give a decent understanding of what makes me love this game so much.

 

[Lons]

Look at this graph:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[ccshopland]

It's about time you learnt the Zero Assist game.

And trust me, once completely comfortable with it, those type of passes are very, very, very rare. I'm playing with a team with an Overall average of 75, and I no longer have an issues of which you speak. The passing system is anything but messed up, it just requires more skill, composure and control. Your paying the price for playing with 3-Bars on Superstar.

I've ordered a Component Cable for my PS3, so as of next week, I'll be able to record PES and the UFC 3 via PVR. I intend to capture one of my offline ML games and then upload for anyone that fancies a look. It's all Zero Assistance and it should give a decent understanding of what makes me love this game so much.

Now I've had a game, one bar assist where I was winning 2-1 to the 87th minute, then conceded three goals, to lose 4-2 lol, this game is a laugh a minute on the PS3.

The point is Jim a few weeks ago I did 'master' zero assists, but I had to put the game to 20 mins and it was a grind, this was on Superstar. The issue is the inconsistency of the passing. From game to game. You would not believe that last game I had, talk about scripting lol.

I have tried and tried and tried with the PS3, it's the game I want to play because of the ease of just switching the console on. It's just a scripted mess sometimes. Honestly. When you have the likes of Gerrard, with everything in place, from body position to team mate run etc etc, and you lightly tap through ball for a basic three yard pass and the ball rockets metres into touch. At times broken.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I've never played with a player as good stat-wise as Gerrard for any period of time, I would have assumed playing with that level of player would have been like using 2-Bars with any normal player.

 

[ccshopland]

I've never played with a player as good stat-wise as Gerrard for any period of time, I would have assumed playing with that level of player would have been like using 2-Bars with any normal player.

Exactly....and that's the point. In the context of THAT move, the pass was a simple quick hold of the through ball for a team mate who was already triggered to tun, and the pass goes way overpowered. It's this kind of inconsistency which really makes the game go bad very quickly.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Exactly....and that's the point. In the context of THAT move, the pass was a simple quick hold of the through ball for a team mate who was already triggered to tun, and the pass goes way overpowered. It's this kind of inconsistency which really makes the game go bad very quickly.

Ah ok. Just playing devils advocate here, but it is not possible that maybe Gerrard is, at times, able to get the weight of a pass wrong ? I appreciate where your coming from, but I'm not sure how realistic it is for players to get it right 100% of the time. I certainly wouldn't want to see that. A much higher level of consistency, yes. Perfect ? nope.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

Look at this graph:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is what happens when you churn out poor game after poor game, This is why PES 2013 needs to be amazing out of the box! Konami's shareholders must be wondering what Seabass and co have been doing the last 5 years.

If Konami keep holding off and holding off with making the game a better game who's to say Fifa is not going to keep getting stronger n stronger and picking up even more sales as PES fans will continue to leave the series.

 

[radha1]

Exactly....and that's the point. In the context of THAT move, the pass was a simple quick hold of the through ball for a team mate who was already triggered to tun, and the pass goes way overpowered. It's this kind of inconsistency which really makes the game go bad very quickly.

I really enjoy reading your comments. You seem both motivated and exasperated. We might be twins in that regard, with this game.

I guess I have three separate comments.

With regard to the inconsistent passing. So I use only unassisted passing (partly for the presumed freedom and partly in an effort to increase the CPU's possession time by my natural errors) and I do, three or four times a game get a completely absurd passing moment. I'm on the wing, my cb is overlapping wonderfully, I lay out a very gentle 3 or 4 yard through ball that ends up a smash into the crowd. I hear you, my brother. But on closer examination, sometimes the awful pass may actually be justified: it was the wrong foot, or it required the outside of the foot, he was just previously jostled by a defender; and of course, it was simply an aspect of the random nature of the universe. Things go wrong. I think all of us PES players can appreciate those very special random moments in the game that make us say our hail marys. When I send in a free kick that bounces of the defenders head, off the crossbar, onto my CFs head and into the net, I must bow to gods. I am therefore willing to accept moments of randomness in the passing. I don't know if that might make you feel better?

Second comment (unrelated): I'm on my second Master League. I stopped my first one midway through the second year because, unbelievably, I got bored (despite all its flaws, I played ML on 2011 through to 12 seasons!). So, I was still loving the transfers, the youth team, the training, and I certainly loved playing offense. When you are offense, this game is, I think, the finest of all the iterations. It is so hard, and at times so lovely, that I find myself smiling while I'm playing. But then, you have to play defense...this is the problem. Playing defense on 2012 is incredibly boring for a number of reasons. If you remember 2011, playing defense was an art: because of the realistic pace of the CPU build-up (remember when the CPU played backward and lateral passes--oh the days!) you had time to switch players and establish positions, you had time to notice CPU runs and switch to cut it off, you had time for god's sake to play defense. I loved it. But in 2012, there is just no time to play strategic or lovely defense. When the CPU gains possession in its own penalty box, their offensive move will be over in 5 or six passes. Heck, sometimes it will be over in just two passes: Keeper to Target man, header flick to AMF, shot on goal, or Keeper to SB, dribble, lobbed through ball to Target man, shot, or keeeper to CMF, pass to wing, lobbed cross to Target man, shot or flick, then shot. I stopped playing that first Master league because I once looked down at my controller and realized that (while I was on defense) my hands were at my sides. I wasn't playing defense! I want to stress that I am not saying that I think playing defense is hard. I really don't think it is, or at least, it doesn't bother me if it is hard. I lost a game last night as Ajax against Fenerbahce in the 88 minute after their AMF ghost dribbled through my DMF (who was marking him) and both my CBs. I can live with that. Heck, I thought it was a wonderful individual effort and after checking his stats, I think it was very possible (my DMF was exhausted, and both my CBs, unfortunately, have poor response and agility). The only problem I have is that the AMF received the ball from the CF, who received the ball from the SB, who received the ball from GK. Three passes. I know it was late in the game, I know they really wanted to score, I can accept losing, etc. But that happens all game. Come on! Because the play is just so absolutely direct and entirely foward, there is just hardly any beauty in playing defense (aside from the occasional intereception, etc.)

Last comment: (just in case it matters, btw, I am still playing the game, I'm in my second ML as Ajax, I just lost a derby to Feyenoord 4-2 and it was in many ways, a wicked, wonderful game. I sincerely felt that all the goals scored were entirely justified. All four of their goals were caused by my mistakes. Both of my goals were because of my skill, I felt. All's fair.) After the game I checked stats and of course the possession was out of whack. I've decided to forgive that a bit and basically, if I have 60 percent and the CPU has 40, I count 5-10 percent of that to my delay tactics and the inability of the CPU to pass backwards or hardly laterally at all, etc. and I just move on from this glaring flaw in the game. Note: in the 25 minute game, the CPU switch sides twice (I remember because I was shocked; it is so rare, they passed laterally and across the field!). Then I checked the player ratings and the individual stats. I know my passing stats will be disproportionately (sp?) higher than the CPU, but something else was troubling. While my three midfielders all passed the ball a minimum of 40 times (I think the highest was my DMF at 52), the CPUs three midfielders all passed the ball a minimum of 17 times (I think the highest was their CMF at 26). This, in a nutshell, is all I would want fixed in this game. I can live with all the other flaws (scripting, I don't care, crossing to effective, I don't care, ghost dribbling, I don't care) but I want midfield play, indirect passing, and time to enjoy playing defense. I want to enjoy me some defense!

Good day!

Update:

So I just lost 0-4 to FC Twente. I have no real complaints about the goals. I probably deserved every single one of them. Of course, it is odd that all goals were headers. Oh well. And that my CF Sigthorsson had three point blank headers straight into the keepers arms. Oh well.

But this, in my opinion, is what matters. In the 25 minute game, the CPU switched sides only once. All other offensive moves were directly forward with almost no lateral play except into the penalty box. The players stats are revealing in this regard. The CPU DMF attempted a total of 12 passes, the CMF a total of 19 passes, and the AMF a total of 24 passes. They played a 433 formation, possession tactic, with the DMF as the deep-lying distributor. Problem: no distribution from the circle. This is further revealed by the Ball Touches: the DMF only had 19, while the AMF had 40. In fact, amazingly, the CF had 28 ball touches (nine more than the DMF). On the other hand, my deep-lying DMF had 39 ball touches, while my CF only had 24. I know it's not quit right to compare the human stats to the CPU stats; possession is out of whack, I agree. But it points to a fundamental problem (in fact, the only problem I care about): no distribution from the circle, no midfield play.

It's instructive to note that the players with the most ball touches were the AMF and CF (this is absurd), the players with the most passes were the two WFs (also absurd) followed by the SBs. I can accept a scenario where distribution forward by strategy comes from the SBs, but I find it unusual (to say the least) that the most passes could come from the high wings and the most touches comes from the players highest up the pitch (in this case the AMF and CF).

Again, Good Day!

 

[ccshopland]

I really enjoy reading your comments. You seem both motivated and exasperated. We might be twins in that regard, with this game.

I guess I have three separate comments.

With regard to the inconsistent passing. So I use only unassisted passing (partly for the presumed freedom and partly in an effort to increase the CPU's possession time by my natural errors) and I do, three or four times a game get a completely absurd passing moment. I'm on the wing, my cb is overlapping wonderfully, I lay out a very gentle 3 or 4 yard through ball that ends up a smash into the crowd. I hear you, my brother. But on closer examination, sometimes the awful pass may actually be justified: it was the wrong foot, or it required the outside of the foot, he was just previously jostled by a defender; and of course, it was simply an aspect of the random nature of the universe. Things go wrong. I think all of us PES players can appreciate those very special random moments in the game that make us say our hail marys. When I send in a free kick that bounces of the defenders head, off the crossbar, onto my CFs head and into the net, I must bow to gods. I am therefore willing to accept moments of randomness in the passing. I don't know if that might make you feel better?

Second comment (unrelated): I'm on my second Master League. I stopped my first one midway through the second year because, unbelievably, I got bored (despite all its flaws, I played ML on 2011 through to 12 seasons!). So, I was still loving the transfers, the youth team, the training, and I certainly loved playing offense. When you are offense, this game is, I think, the finest of all the iterations. It is so hard, and at times so lovely, that I find myself smiling while I'm playing. But then, you have to play defense...this is the problem. Playing defense on 2012 is incredibly boring for a number of reasons. If you remember 2011, playing defense was an art: because of the realistic pace of the CPU build-up (remember when the CPU played backward and lateral passes--oh the days!) you had time to switch players and establish positions, you had time to notice CPU runs and switch to cut it off, you had time for god's sake to play defense. I loved it. But in 2012, there is just no time to play strategic or lovely defense. When the CPU gains possession in its own penalty box, their offensive move will be over in 5 or six passes. Heck, sometimes it will be over in just two passes: Keeper to Target man, header flick to AMF, shot on goal, or Keeper to SB, dribble, lobbed through ball to Target man, shot, or keeeper to CMF, pass to wing, lobbed cross to Target man, shot or flick, then shot. I stopped playing that first Master league because I once looked down at my controller and realized that (while I was on defense) my hands were at my sides. I wasn't playing defense! I want to stress that I am not saying that I think playing defense is hard. I really don't think it is, or at least, it doesn't bother me if it is hard. I lost a game last night as Ajax against Fenerbahce in the 88 minute after their AMF ghost dribbled through my DMF (who was marking him) and both my CBs. I can live with that. Heck, I thought it was a wonderful individual effort and after checking his stats, I think it was very possible (my DMF was exhausted, and both my CBs, unfortunately, have poor response and agility). The only problem I have is that the AMF received the ball from the CF, who received the ball from the SB, who received the ball from GK. Three passes. I know it was late in the game, I know they really wanted to score, I can accept losing, etc. But that happens all game. Come on! Because the play is just so absolutely direct and entirely foward, there is just hardly any beauty in playing defense (aside from the occasional intereception, etc.)

Last comment: (just in case it matters, btw, I am still playing the game, I'm in my second ML as Ajax, I just lost a derby to Feyenoord 4-2 and it was in many ways, a wicked, wonderful game. I sincerely felt that all the goals scored were entirely justified. All four of their goals were caused by my mistakes. Both of my goals were because of my skill, I felt. All's fair.) After the game I checked stats and of course the possession was out of whack. I've decided to forgive that a bit and basically, if I have 60 percent and the CPU has 40, I count 5-10 percent of that to my delay tactics and the inability of the CPU to pass backwards or hardly laterally at all, etc. and I just move on from this glaring flaw in the game. Note: in the 25 minute game, the CPU switch sides twice (I remember because I was shocked; it is so rare, they passed laterally and across the field!). Then I checked the player ratings and the individual stats. I know my passing stats will be disproportionately (sp?) higher than the CPU, but something else was troubling. While my three midfielders all passed the ball a minimum of 40 times (I think the highest was my DMF at 52), the CPUs three midfielders all passed the ball a minimum of 17 times (I think the highest was their CMF at 26). This, in a nutshell, is all I would want fixed in this game. I can live with all the other flaws (scripting, I don't care, crossing to effective, I don't care, ghost dribbling, I don't care) but I want midfield play, indirect passing, and time to enjoy playing defense. I want to enjoy me some defense!

Good day!

This...

It's been the golden chalice for me, to get the CPU to keep the effin ball!

What I want in a game is for both teams to resemble the principles of football well. If for example I have to build up play, be patient, create passing lanes etc etc, then so to should the CPU, the game would be much more immersive for me if the CPU actually worked me around the park as in real life.

You hit the nail on the head with your observations perfectly.

I'm stuck in a situation whereby I feel the game is short-changing me because instead of trying to beat the CPU, I'm more interested in creating ways for the CPU to keep possession, as they seem just dead keen on giving the ball away after three passes. And the problem? The CPU attacking AI is just way, way too direct, because it doesn't mirror the way the human player has to play.

In PES 2011 there were glimpses of the CPU actually passing the ball amongst its back four to work you forward and therefore create space in midfield. The problem with PES 2012 adopting this CPU direct attitude is that almost every game is now attack followed by counter attack. The CPU needs to have the same type of programming as the human player, and they should be passing the ball amongst the back and the midfield not for show, but rather as a means to an end and for a purpose.

It should be very very difficult, for both the CPU and the human player just to go from front to back in no time, unless you go long which is a tactic that is just overlooked in PES (and FIFA).

The trouble with PES as it stands is that zero assists is al over the shop and frustrating, whereas and other assists makes passing too easy. Why do professional footballers look to go long sometimes? Because they are under pressure to do so from effective defensive unit pressure. Why do back fours pass the ball to one another for up to two minutes at a time? To create space to exploit. Now I can quite clearly remember in PES 5/6 that the CPU actually passed the ball amongst it's backline if you attacked in units well enough, so where is this kind of defensive game nowadays? The main problem with PES, is that it is too easy to play football as the human controlled player and pass like Barce with almost any team, whilst the CPU has un-erring dribbling attacking accuracy. This makes for this type of game -

HUMAN PLAYER - keeps the ball for ages. Goals are dependant on how long you keep the ball. I can actually keep the ball forever, but I am always aware of the CPU counter threat. End result Human Player gets 60% possession minimum and sometimes up to 70%

CPU - defends with great efficiency, looks to break fast and decisively. CPU attackers are direct and look primarily to dribble.

I had a game earlier against Spurs, at Spurs, and they played counter attack. They were third and I was fourth, and I ended up with 70% possession from the first half. They kept the ball better second half and the overall total was 62% to me.

BUT - the underlying principle in this is that the CPU has different rules from the human player. Games of football between the top sides are never far away from 50-50% possession. So why can't KONAMI programme the God-damn CPU to work me round the pitch and keep hold of the ball?

It seems the programming is designed to beat the human player not by good football, but rather cheap dribbling tricks, altering your player positions and having silly scripts everywhere.

With all football releases near enough, it seems you have to try your absolute damndest to slow the horse down, and to literally MAKE it into a simulation where passing lanes are cut off, player positioning and defensive positioning (from front to back) is the key factor in stopping moves.

I am honestly getting to the stage where I'd rather have a midfield slug-fest with no shots on goals for the entire half than have 17 shots on goal and the ball careering from end to end, with virtually the entire midfield space resembling no-man's land!

Passing for the human has to be made harder, but the trade off is that the entire CPU programming has to be scrapped and made to play off an even keel against the human player; we both sing off the same hymn sheet with regards to player abilities, the only thing differentiating these players is the stats themselves. Why is Heskey like f'kin Maradona on every iteration of PES for example? The guy can't dribble, and can't score thunderbolts from thirty yards, so why is he doing it in PES? Now headers are a different kettle of fish. This is what the old games gave us; player individuality because you felt that both you and the CPU were on an even footing. I once bought Wallner on PES 6 for his heading ability alone, and he was a demon in the air. Now, I have God-dam Downing scoring two headers a game! When was the last time he scored a headed goal?!?

It's all this stuff that needs to be corrected in my book!

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

This...

It seems the programming is designed to beat the human player not by good football, but rather cheap dribbling tricks, altering your player positions and having silly scripts everywhere.

Passing for the human has to be made harder, but the trade off is that the entire CPU programming has to be scrapped and made to play off an even keel against the human player; we both sing

I agree with the first paragraph but I don't think human passing should be harder. It should be that passing error is more closely tied to body shape/position etc like it is for shooting. And for both humans and AI so that one touch super speed passing is not possible and not seen in gameplay.

 

[ccshopland]

I agree with the first paragraph but I don't think human passing should be harder. It should be that passing error is more closely tied to body shape/position etc like it is for shooting. And for both humans and AI so that one touch super speed passing is not possible and not seen in gameplay.

I went back to PES 2011 yesterday fella, re-bought it for the PS3. After the initial OMG shock of how robotic things felt, after 30 minutes I was hooked. It wasn't the fact that players were robotic at all, just the fact that I was trying to play the way I do on 2012, too fast, too quick and to direct and not taking player body positioning into account. Also the CPU held the ball and passed the ball around, sideways, backwards etc. It was a complete joy, and now I know, once again, why I played this game to death.

Also the problems that I thought I was experiencing before like cheating on TP and through balls have all vanished, I think my time on PES 2012 has given me one thing, and that's how to defend properly and not lunge in.

It was a wonderful experience last night and went to bed a t 2am this morning after playing it for four hours straight. Carragher felt like Carragher and Forlan felt quick and agile.

For me, PES 2011 is THE SIMULATION of football. Next to it, 2012 is a very good arcade game.

 

[P34SEMM]

I dont know why anyone would waste any more time with PES12.

 

[xPJRx]

Had a horrific session PES12 last night, whereby everything that is wrong with the game was on show in every match.

- Commentators yelling "He's curled it, its a goal to remember forever" when in fact it was a scrappy 2 yard tap in.
- CPU players, any player from any team, adopting a Messi-like dribbling ability and waltzing through my team
- CPU players being given free klicks for any tiny little challenge, even fair ones where i won the ball cleanly, despite the fact I dont get freekicks/penalties for fouls that are almost assault
- Piss poor defensive AI, where my CPU controlled defenders just wander away from or fail to react to danger balls
- CPU handicapping me when it plays lofted through balls over my defence, in that i will track the CPU runner with my defender, only for the CPU to momentarily stop my defender, turn him to face the wrong direction, then have him carry on his run, this gives the CPU attacker that 1 yard of space he needs to get a shot away.
- Despite the fact that my attacker is on a red form arrowm in loads of space, ball is out from under his feet, has good stats, not under pressure, is in the right contextual position and the ball is on his stronger foot, even from 6 yards out, the CPU will direct my shit straight at the keeper.
- Games often feel lesss responsive and sluggish during night matches.
- passing is inconsistent, passes fly 40 yards with a deft tap of the pass button, on unassisted or 1 bar assist
- My pacy wingers bomb down the flanks, yet the tiniest nudge from a slower defender will send my winger into a stumble, the only outcome being me losing posession, no inertia or momentum is taken into consideration
- Animations, horrible, especially the R2 control shot, where the balls looks as if its just teleporting away from the players foot.

This is my 12th season in ML on PES12, so im not just slating the game for the sake of it, but i dont know how much longer i can tolerate the above points and others.