Yup, you're bang on with these comments. I don't care how much anyone claims PES recreates, say, fundamentals of body positioning when shooting, or any technical recreations of ball control etc. I don't care because beyond this the fundamentals of how real football is played out between two teams is totally wrong. Matches in PES2012 are one dimensional, they do play out the same no matter your opponent, be it Barcelona or Stoke, and this is where, for me, any pretentions of PES being a sim or replication of the game fall down quite spectacularly. The game utterly fails on all levels to replicate a CPU opponent that has any sense of variety or play as they would in real life. I don't expect miracles from a game but I do expect, in 2012, that Konami should by now be able to see a CPU Barcelona dominate me in terms of possession. Instead, I could play as Wigan and still have 60% of the play every time, with the only difference being how hard the CPU presses you with defenders and how devastating they are on the counter attack. Totally unrealistic, no matter what other aspects the game might get right.
FIFA12 on the other hand has taken giant strides this year and continues to astonish me how well the CPU opposition replicates CPU possession and periods of pressure in games that ebb and flow. I lost a game today at Arsenal where I took an early lead, got heavily pressured, then pegged back, before the game swung each way in periods of pressure before the final 20 minutes seeing Arsenal slowly wind up the pressure so I could barely get out of my half before buckling and conceding a winner late on.
Despite losing, I loved the match itself because it played out exactly how a tough trip to Arsenal would play out, with me narrowly failing to hold on to a slow start by Arsenal and the CPU ended up finishing on 57% of the ball over the 90 minutes. This, I never see in PES, ever. For me there's the core difference between the two, why I think FIFA12 is the more realistic. If I'd have played the same fixture in PES2012 I'd have dominated the ball, with the only difference between Arsensl and a lesser team being that Arsenal would pressure faster and stronger, and they'd have still sat back and caught me on the break a couple of times. It's old and boring.
I appreciate FIFA needs tightening up in certain areas such as ball control but overall its reputation this year is unjust and tempered by older versions of rhe game, from FIFA11 down, which were indeed horrible arcadey messes. This year EA have done a brilliant job and made so many key areas more realistic. The addition of sliders enables you to enhance those to get a game in my opinion far in excess of PES. Not for the way ball control etc is portrayed, like I said, but because the replication of a real match against real opponents is vastly more varied and realistic. If I go to the Nou Camp in FIFA12 I will brace myself and expect to manfully be chasing shadows for most of the match. The complete opposite is true of PES2012.
Just my two cents.
Do you know what, it really, really pains me, but I have a feeling that you are right LTFC?!?
I have played PES to death now, tried everything from the patches to this and that, everything. Whilst I can get something out of the game, the game has to be played in a certain way for 'things' not to just break. I have been trying my best to slow the game down, but adjusting gamespeed alone does just that, adjusts the whole speed of the game to where it becomes unresponsive. I have tried the gameplay tweaks with Jenkey and Yair is doing a fantastic job, but all they can do is iron out the cracks, they cannot fill the cracks.
I have been a staunch PES supporter, and although I played both game last year I absolutely smashed PES 2011 warts and all. I played FIFA 11, and it was good, but there were glaring issues like the repetitive CPU headed goals and the pressure abuse.
I have played PES 2012 far more than FIFA this year, but this last week I have really sat down and tried to get the best out of FIFA and gave myself a target of 20 games, win, lose or draw, scripts, momentum and all for the first time just out of frustration really. And do you know what, I may not be turning back to PES!
My main issues with FIFA this year was the lack of 'off the cuff' pressure which PES can replicate brilliantly. By this, I mean that I don't simply want to go from A to B to C via a series of diagonal passes up the opponents half with my opposition just mirroring me all the time. This was a major gripe with FIFA and something that couldn't be fixed with the sliders alone. Eventually I worked my way through professional, to world class, and now, finally, I am playing at Legendary level.
THIS ADDS TO THE GAMEPLAY IMMEASURABLY - now the CPU, together with the adjustment of the marking stat to make games tighter sees the CPU mirror me when necessary but also is more aggressive to any 50/50 passes and generally tried to mix the game up a little.
I had a major, major moment of enlightenment/clarification yesterday, just as I had one with PES about a month or so ago, where suddenly the game became crystal clear, and I knew what I had to do to a) win b)to get the most out of the game.
I was a staunch, staunch, PES realism advocate. I am not ashamed to change my opinion or alter it in any way; I want the best football experience so although my loyalty is with PES, I feel I have to give all games equal chance to impress. I have gotten everything I possibly can out of PES, I play on Superstar level, zero assists, I have found my formation, playing style, and know how the game works, Only now am I delving into the detail of FIFA to try and get to grips with it.
Don't get me wrong here guys, I still like PES, but there are still 'broken' aspects which is stopping it from being a killer for me.
So here's where my view starts I guess -
LTFC is right; I didn't see it first or didn't have the right settings or playing mentality. I was trying to play FIFA like PES, even though I play PES like PES. In my 'moment of clarity' yesterday I now have a far greater understanding of the game, how moves are constructed, how the opposition plays, how I am supposed to defend, and where I have been going wrong for months.
FIFA can easily be dismissed as the cheap for thrills product this year, but that would be to under-estimate the title. After prolonged use of both, ans then comparing and contrasting, for the first time this year, I am starting to feel a little embarrassed about the two, and it's not just an animations/pretty shiny issue either, it's more core fundamental than that. At first, the active AI I thought was the saviour of PES, but the more I look at it, I think this is where the main problems surface. Players are now just too active. If I watch or even play a game of PES, now all I see and feel is players, to a man, running left, right and centre, never stopping, never taking a breather. The result, is a very quick game which is supposed to be played very quickly. I get joy out of playing on professional far more than on Superstar for example, it's just that the game becomes too easy. On Superstar, the game needs to be played at a frantic high tempo pace, just to break defences down.
FIFA is more considered, with slider changes albeit. I'm thinking of both titles now as PES being the highlights reel of Match of the Day, with constant end to end counter attacks, and FIFA as being the actual game played out in it's entirety. I play on 10 minute halves on FIFA because for me, this is where I have time to actually play the game and build something, any time less, and I feel rushed and the whole gameplay comes crumbling down; FIFA definitely isn't get from A to B as quickly as possible type of game... I have now learned this.
The animations are obviously top notch, the passing and physics are excellent, the shooting (after prolonged getting to grips) is excellent. Player interaction is very good, and looking at both games again, is probably about the right mix of player movement (if you increase player runs to around 70).
The TWO areas which is why I have kind of given up on PES for the moment, is the feeling of rails which is now undeniable, and just the way the players behave with the ball and how they generally receive it and turn with it. PES is just way, way too quick in this department, with players seemingly having the flexibility and quickness of reflex that Yoda would be proud of. When players in FIFA receive the ball, they control it, have to adjust body position, and the whole process takes a second or two which is what it would be like for a human. It's this slowing down of the game in micro-capsules that stops the game from becoming an arcade end to end fest. This and the fact that players have acceleration. Carroll for example on PES is like the road runner, where on FIFA he is slow to get off the mark, but does retain the ball well etc.
I also want to address issues I have had big concerns about in FIFA and kind of put them to bed. I have been a big, big momentum/cheating/45/90 minute goal problem man. BUT, I will say, as I have become more proficient at FIFA, these types of things are becoming rarer and rarer as I am getting better. Kind of like the first time I thought how do you stop these dribblers in PES before I mastered the jockey hold principle.
I do think it's right that the game opens up in the late stages of a game, especially if one team is winning/losing, this is human nature. Like LTFC said, I had a game v Arsenal yesterday where I had the better of the first half, they had much the better of the second. I scored an early goal, but ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE GAME, they were the better team on the ball, and I could sense it. They kept possession like Arsenal would, dominating me in large spells, and I was left pretty much for the entire second half to rely on sparse counters. I just about held off for a 1-0 win at Highbury, but I left that game feeling a rush, something I hadn't experienced for ages; the feeling of being dominated by a technically better team. The possession stats said 53-47 to Arsenal, but quite honestly I expected and felt, like it was like 60% to Arsenal, they were that good. But I matched them near enough defensively, set out my stall, and dropped players behind the ball every Arsenal attack, and they just couldn't find that one clear chance.
PES is beginning to play out exactly the same; I near enough always have anything from between 55% to 62% possession, and the CPU seems absolutely dead keen on surrendering possession. On the higher levels, they attack very, very directly. Mostly, the CPU will rely on counter attacks, as all your active AI players steam roller forwards and beyond the ball leaving you exposed to a two on two at the back.
BIG AREAS OF CONCERN RE-FIFA -
The 45/90 minute goals can be countered but it is a mental thing, and you have to bring players behind the ball from midfield to counter ANY CPU cheating/moving your players during this period - this is a big NO-NO from EA, take it OUT NOW for next year.
Variation in play - there needs to be varied aerial threat. Even Arsenal can spring the odd surprise and go long sometimes; but going long shouldn't be a pre-requisite for cheating to get one on one, it should be seen as a variant on an attack that will bring the game to more life with varied bounces and bobbles after the aerial contest, something that PES does so well, having the ball be an actual entity that can literally bounce and bobble anywhere.
Momentum - Jury is still out on this for me. I was a MASSIVE FIFA is cheating me, momentum man. But I do see the logic also of the other argument, that as a team losing you are going to attack more and try more risks than if you weren't. I also think that as my own defensive play becomes much better and I am starting to draw support from the midfield more, these CPU glitch one on ones are becoming less frequent, but you still have to watch your player like a hawk. I don't know if it's a built in thing that says 'right once player A goes 1-0 up then game=skitz', but I do feel little nuances in the gameplay. For example, if I string together a series of moves that break down, the CPU seem to grow 'stronger' and there feels like a force whereby the CPU team move up the pitch and start cramping me for room, it is at this time where passes have to be precise.
There are also phases of the game where you have to accept that you are going to be second best, and you just have to sit in and defend. I now know when to press and when to drop back.
I never use the contain button; for me this is the most useless piece of shit ever. I just manually control my players all the time.
So anyway that's it.
This isn't designed to be a 'I hate PES' rant, I see the beauty with both games now, that's all I am saying. PES needs to tighten up and become more sim-like in the way the players structure themselves on the pitch, get its act together with the presentation and stop the insane CPU cheating at the higher levels. FIFA needs to get a portion of that 'bottle of PES magic' which makes the game more alive somehow.
Whichever floats your boat, happy playing!
