The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[Lami]

Last night I fired up PES2012 for the first time this year, hoping that some time away will do me good. Perhaps I've been to harsh on the game? Unfortunately not. Two games in and I turned it off again.

Without wishing to tread over old ground again, what strikes me the most about PES2012 is how it's almost completely lacking in fun. It's a complete grind to play. Even the simple act of knocking the ball about looks and feels awkward, sluggish and lethargic. Every game involves a siege on an entrenched defence. Every long shot I attempt is magically charged down by a defender. In the event that I do find some space to get a decent shot away from outside the area, the ball is struck with all the venom of a toddler toe-punting a full-size football.

The simple things in PES used to be fun. Spraying the ball around, taking shots on goal, beating a man. All of these things just feel wrong these days. I'm not asking for a fully-assisted arcade game, but there is something to be said for the way arcade elements can make a football game so much fun and addictive.

Jamez, c'mon mate, after all these years you should know that 2 games isn't enough to judge PES. The PS2 games that we so love to praise all were hated the first week or 2, until they finally "click", and everything falls in place. I don't see 2012 any different. Try giving it more time. Explore it more. Maybe learn how things work like the old days, then magic might hit you.

I stayed away from this game for months disliking it, 3 or 4 that is. Now I'm back and tbh I can't get enough of it. Maybe it's the 1.3 patch, or maybe not. I just was more patient with it this time, with a clear mind, and things clicked. I'm not ignoring any of its faults, like I never did before with any PES game from PS1 and PS2 times.

I understand it might not be your cup of tea, and I understand most of the things you complain about, but it's PES, and we should all know how it is until it clicks for us. It's always "I hate you", "What have you done Konami?", "Wth I can't dribble or defend fgs!", "I'm always losing I can't do anything!", then after it clicks, "Wooo my first goal! Haha take that you freakin' cpu", "More goals. I'm on a roll!", "Oh what's that move my player just did? That looks good..", etc etc.

I do understand frustrations for everyone, but I also do know that PES cannot be judged from a couple games. Not even a whole week of games from my past PES experience. The 2 games that I hated the most on PS2 for 2-3 weeks, that made me feel so crippled and almost gave up on them, WE8LE and WE9.

 

[makky]

I like a lot of what PES2012 has to offer but there is much I don't like also. The good tends to outweigh the bad for the most part in my experience and I have racked up hours upon hours of play (amassed in shorter burst than previous years admittedly) as a result, but that doesn't mean that I am ignorant to the games shortcomings. Some of these shortcomings are pure personal taste and could be deemed very much my own but there are of course others in which I share the opinion of countless others. I really don't see what is so controversial, damaging, or corrupted about such an outlook.

Anyway, I immediately thought of PES and the community at large when I read this...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-11-why-devs-owe-you-nothing

Nice article.

 

[ccshopland]

I like a lot of what PES2012 has to offer but there is much I don't like also. The good tends to outweigh the bad for the most part in my experience and I have racked up hours upon hours of play (amassed in shorter burst than previous years admittedly) as a result, but that doesn't mean that I am ignorant to the games shortcomings. Some of these shortcomings are pure personal taste and could be deemed very much my own but there are of course others in which I share the opinion of countless others. I really don't see what is so controversial, damaging, or corrupted about such an outlook.

Anyway, I immediately thought of PES and the community at large when I read this...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-11-why-devs-owe-you-nothing

The problem is Al, is that technology moves with the times. Whereas before people would be happy just getting a picture off an aerial on a 15" tv, now anything other than a million channels in 50" crystal clear display is expected.

The fact that PES has improved marginally in some areas whilst other more flashy areas have gone largely untouched is the issue. It's 2012, and the animations in PES 2012 are just awful, let's be clear about this. If you are going to make a footbal game, i nthe year 2012, the first thing you'd get right is the player himself. The way it moves, the body positions, after all, you are playing with this image on the screen.

I have always been a gameplay first person, and PES still has the edge in this department. But I emphasise again, it's the year 2012, just what were KONAMI thinking with the blurred hit for example, I mean come on. Players still hit the ball at weird angles, hit it with the outside of their foot instead of a plain pass, then the ball jets off at weird trajectories. We all know the problem with the shooting through the patches and the keepers. Many are unhappy about the passing. So that's the animations, the graphics, the shooting, the goalies, and the passing there has been problems with; I mean Christ is there anything left?!?

I can still get life out of this game with the right variables in place, and boy is the list extensive. BUT, we're in a consumer age and in recesison at that, and suddenly MY £120 quid I've spent on PES becomes an isse if I can't just sit down, when I want, on console or PC, and just boot the game up from scratch without me having to install a thousand patches, get the right tele, play at a certain gamespeed, get the right tactics JUST to counter CPU wing through balls, and play with the right player edits.

We're all getting older, and whereas once I was happy enough to spend 1000 hours getting all these variables in place to enjoy a game, now my time is diminsihing rather quickly. I dislike FIFA, but at the moment it's becoming a realsitic alterntaive on the PS3 as I see Danny Murohy score his FOURTH headed goal against me lol!

PES on the PC modded tp Yair's stuff is very. very good. But not even Yair can iron out some hardcoded issues. PS3 PES plays like a split personlity, and when you point this out on WENB, Adam and his little disciples tell you you're talking shit and then ban you; even though they haven't picked up pES for months themselves. At least on here, people can have a debate and thrash out the rights and wrongs of PES, something I have always admired. PES forums need to be careful they don't become FIFA forums, biut I will say this, this year of all years there has been a bigger maturity about the FIFA game, both good and bad, then ever before. Us PES-ites have to be careful we don't become too precious over our game, and welcome all opinions!

 

[Jamezinho]

Jamez, c'mon mate, after all these years you should know that 2 games isn't enough to judge PES. The PS2 games that we so love to praise all were hated the first week or 2, until they finally "click", and everything falls in place. I don't see 2012 any different. Try giving it more time. Explore it more. Maybe learn how things work like the old days, then magic might hit you.

I stayed away from this game for months disliking it, 3 or 4 that is. Now I'm back and tbh I can't get enough of it. Maybe it's the 1.3 patch, or maybe not. I just was more patient with it this time, with a clear mind, and things clicked. I'm not ignoring any of its faults, like I never did before with any PES game from PS1 and PS2 times.

I understand it might not be your cup of tea, and I understand most of the things you complain about, but it's PES, and we should all know how it is until it clicks for us. It's always "I hate you", "What have you done Konami?", "Wth I can't dribble or defend fgs!", "I'm always losing I can't do anything!", then after it clicks, "Wooo my first goal! Haha take that you freakin' cpu", "More goals. I'm on a roll!", "Oh what's that move my player just did? That looks good..", etc etc.

I do understand frustrations for everyone, but I also do know that PES cannot be judged from a couple games. Not even a whole week of games from my past PES experience. The 2 games that I hated the most on PS2 for 2-3 weeks, that made me feel so crippled and almost gave up on them, WE8LE and WE9.

I've played more than two games though, Lami. I bought the game day one, played for a few weeks, sold it then bought it again a few weeks later. I tried to get into it a second time and failed. So this was my third attempt at finding something to hook me into this game but, alas, nothing.

So with all due respect this is not a knee-jerk reaction to the game. I commend those that find something in PES2012 to keep them playing, but for me the game does very little right. It's a mess. Other, better produced and more enjoyable games are worthy of my time.

I appreciate the usual bedding-in period that comes with each new PES, but in the past its never taken more than five or six games to appreciate. I was never one to bitch and moan about this in the glory days. To this end I've given the game more than enough time.

 

[Daytripper]

sorry Alan ie curdstar but having seen your post on the wenb forums:

"I can only speak from my own experience which included getting to pay the game back at the start of August last year but that PES2012, the one I played in August, was a truly great game and I wasn't alone in thinking so, as I am sure Adam,Danny, Gari, Thomas, Asim, Toby (xaor), Chris (romagnolio) and thought similarly to myself.

Retail? Something changed and not for the better but I still play the game. It is that experience I had back in August however that has me believe that regardless of engine, tech etc., that PES2013 could be a fantastic game.

I should add that when I got to play it at Adam's over that weekend in August, I wasn't confined to playing local multi-player which will always bring out the best in any PES. No, I essentially slept with the game thanks to Adam putting me up at his place for the duration of my stay and you bet your ass I stayed up well past bedtime and when everyone had left to sample as much human v. AI as possible. You know the stand-up moves players perform when they stop with the ball? The AI would oft tear me apart for lunging in but it wasn't any old player that was doing them, it was the players you expected to perform such teasing, ridiculing play.

Call me the optimist on this one but had Seabass and Co. stopped fannying around at the mixing desk late in the day before release, PES2012 could have been a game that would have had some issues but I believe would have made the wider community a pretty happy bunch than found currently."

You are taking the piss mate, you gave the final product 9/10 and now you say this? sorry but you're not on at all. that speech does not read a 9/10 game to me and its the same rhetoric i've seen from wenb over and over again once a pes game has past release date.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

sorry Alan ie curdstar but having seen your post on the wenb forums:

"I can only speak from my own experience which included getting to pay the game back at the start of August last year but that PES2012, the one I played in August, was a truly great game and I wasn't alone in thinking so, as I am sure Adam,Danny, Gari, Thomas, Asim, Toby (xaor), Chris (romagnolio) and thought similarly to myself.

Retail? Something changed and not for the better but I still play the game. It is that experience I had back in August however that has me believe that regardless of engine, tech etc., that PES2013 could be a fantastic game.

I should add that when I got to play it at Adam's over that weekend in August, I wasn't confined to playing local multi-player which will always bring out the best in any PES. No, I essentially slept with the game thanks to Adam putting me up at his place for the duration of my stay and you bet your ass I stayed up well past bedtime and when everyone had left to sample as much human v. AI as possible. You know the stand-up moves players perform when they stop with the ball? The AI would oft tear me apart for lunging in but it wasn't any old player that was doing them, it was the players you expected to perform such teasing, ridiculing play.

Call me the optimist on this one but had Seabass and Co. stopped fannying around at the mixing desk late in the day before release, PES2012 could have been a game that would have had some issues but I believe would have made the wider community a pretty happy bunch than found currently."

You are taking the piss mate, you gave the final product 9/10 and now you say this? sorry but you're not on at all. that speech does not read a 9/10 game to me and its the same rhetoric i've seen from wenb over and over again once a pes game has past release date.

Surly he's not now trying to say he reviewed the version he played way back in August?

If you read Curd's post on various forums he's always changing his mind about how the game plays, one week it plays best on -2 with 1 pass assist the next week it's +2 on 3 bars then the following week it plays best on -1 with zero pass assist. Basically he like the rest of us cannot get the right settings for the game to be good but he cannot admit it as it would make his reviews look more daft than they already are.

I do laugh when i hear the game is August was so amazing....what feedback did they all give back to Konami for them to change it to a completely different game?

 

[Daytripper]

Surly he's not now trying to say he reviewed the version he played way back in August?

No idea

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jamez, c'mon mate, after all these years you should know that 2 games isn't enough to judge PES. The PS2 games that we so love to praise all were hated the first week or 2, until they finally "click", and everything falls in place. I don't see 2012 any different. Try giving it more time. Explore it more. Maybe learn how things work like the old days, then magic might hit you.

I stayed away from this game for months disliking it, 3 or 4 that is. Now I'm back and tbh I can't get enough of it. Maybe it's the 1.3 patch, or maybe not. I just was more patient with it this time, with a clear mind, and things clicked. I'm not ignoring any of its faults, like I never did before with any PES game from PS1 and PS2 times.

I understand it might not be your cup of tea, and I understand most of the things you complain about, but it's PES, and we should all know how it is until it clicks for us. It's always "I hate you", "What have you done Konami?", "Wth I can't dribble or defend fgs!", "I'm always losing I can't do anything!", then after it clicks, "Wooo my first goal! Haha take that you freakin' cpu", "More goals. I'm on a roll!", "Oh what's that move my player just did? That looks good..", etc etc.

I do understand frustrations for everyone, but I also do know that PES cannot be judged from a couple games. Not even a whole week of games from my past PES experience. The 2 games that I hated the most on PS2 for 2-3 weeks, that made me feel so crippled and almost gave up on them, WE8LE and WE9.

Spot on Lami, this is the Next Gen PES 5 for me, in terms of difficulty that is.

I'm in the process of writing an article to break this all down technically, and how it relates to the real game of football. For me this game is the best representation of football I've ever had the pleasure to experience. End of story.

 

[curdstar]

PS3 PES plays like a split personlity, and when you point this out on WENB, Adam and his little disciples tell you you're talking shit and then ban you;

I think you'll find people here have developed better understanding skills about WENB and how we work these days, and these sorts of criticisms aren't going to fly as easily. Pop on to the boards, and you'll find plenty of people complaining.

Really funny to read on twitter how you accused Adam of being singled minded and only caring about his own opinion, when that's exactly what you were banned for! Ignoring pleas for a more leveled approach, and responding to a warning by saying 'ban me then!' left us little choice.

Lets not drag out issues onto other sites, but think you need to reassess what your conduct was like on WENB. Your posts here are very pleasant, the split personality on WENB wasn't needed.

You are taking the piss mate, you gave the final product 9/10 and now you say this? sorry but you're not on at all. that speech does not read a 9/10 game to me and its the same rhetoric i've seen from wenb over and over again once a pes game has past release date.

Again, it's a shame I always have to respond by suggesting you don't focus on the score and focus on the text of any reviews. Everyone is so focused on the score, when you should read how I got there.

Lets not forget the game hit in October, and we're now in Feb. Am I not allowed to change some of my opinions after 4/5months of extensive play? Have you always stuck to a score/opinion throughout your lifetime playing it?

Overall, a review is an opinion. To pull me up on giving it a 9 is like trying to say I'm wrong. If you say it's worth 7/8, am I going to tell you you're wrong? Of course not.

 

[ccshopland]

I think you'll find people here have developed better understanding skills about WENB and how we work these days, and these sorts of criticisms aren't going to fly as easily. Pop on to the boards, and you'll find plenty of people complaining.

Really funny to read on twitter how you accused Adam of being singled minded and only caring about his own opinion, when that's exactly what you were banned for! Ignoring pleas for a more leveled approach, and responding to a warning by saying 'ban me then!' left us little choice.

Lets not drag out issues onto other sites, but think you need to reassess what your conduct was like on WENB. Your posts here are very pleasant, the split personality on WENB wasn't needed.



Again, it's a shame I always have to respond by suggesting you don't focus on the score and focus on the text of any reviews. Everyone is so focused on the score, when you should read how I got there.

Lets not forget the game hit in October, and we're now in Feb. Am I not allowed to change some of my opinions after 4/5months of extensive play? Have you always stuck to a score/opinion throughout your lifetime playing it?

Overall, a review is an opinion. To pull me up on giving it a 9 is like trying to say I'm wrong. If you say it's worth 7/8, am I going to tell you you're wrong? Of course not.

Err no Al. I have great respect for you, so I don't want to start a war of words. I do not think my opinion is bigger or better than anybody's; that is not what a forum is for and I'm too old and have more things to worry about on a grander scale than PES. I have written countless lengthy articles on numerous forums explaining the MANY plus points that PES has, including over FIFA. I am a PES player first and foremost. I have put countless videos on forums and YouTube and have explained at length to the FIFA brigade just what makes PES so special in terms of gameplay (when it clicks) compared to FIFA. The little bottle of magic if you like, that FIFA has never had. I, in short, have spent way too much time actively contributing and bigging up PES to all that who will listen, in certain circumstances.

BUT - I also have the right to see both sides of the coin, and am free to express just where I BELIEVE PES to fall down in. Now if Adam wants this 'Kumbaya' let's all sit round the camp fire bollocks and we are sing the praises of a game that is poor in places, than that's fine. I can play PES and get something out of it, but again it has to be played in a certain way, with certain criteria set and practiced over and over. WENB is fast approaching being an old school FIFA forum where nothing bad of the product can be said. I don't care if I get banned from WENB Al, I really don't buddy lol. Adam's opinions interest me not. I will be myself and nothing more.

Where PES falls down big time is the animations, which I can accept, and the silly blatant scripting. These things can literally suck the life of a game, and this is coming from a zero assist, Superstar player. When the CPU scores it's FOURTH crossed header from a scripted long wing through ball that the tactics board can do very little about, then there's blatant script issues.

Again, I think it's my right to say what I feel, after £120 of my hard earned went into Mr. Seabass pocket this year! Surely that's what a forum is for; but as soon as any slight deviation from the PES hymn-sheet happens on certain forums, it's taken as a personal slight. Well I don't care, I really don't. It's one less forum for me to worry about to be honest, and I honestly feel that Evo-Web is the most intelligent forum for debating anyway.

 

[curdstar]

BUT - I also have the right to see both sides of the coin, and am free to express just where I BELIEVE PES to fall down in. Now if Adam wants this 'Kumbaya' let's all sit round the camp fire bollocks and we are sing the praises of a game that is poor in places, than that's fine. I can play PES and get something out of it, but again it has to be played in a certain way, with certain criteria set and practiced over and over. WENB is fast approaching being an old school FIFA forum where nothing bad of the product can be said. I don't care if I get banned from WENB Al, I really don't buddy lol. Adam's opinions interest me not. I will be myself and nothing more.

There we go, there's that offensive language that got you banned. Oh, and that self importance I was on about. Also a horrible inaccurate description of WENB.

I'm not sure if you have selective reading, but you are adamant on saying the same things over and over, despite being untrue. Again, please note, lots of criticism on WENB for PES 2012. Lots. To suggest it's all happiness is rubbish. those folks are able to do so in a constructive manner, rather than what you chose to do.

And happy you're not bothered about being banned, means we can move on without bitterness and without the need to talk rubbish about the site I work for.

 

[ccshopland]

Okay, okay. Sorry for wasting everyone's time. PES 2012 is brilliant.

Thanks.

See you next year!

 

[Daytripper]

I think you'll find people here have developed better understanding skills about WENB and how we work these days, and these sorts of criticisms aren't going to fly as easily. Pop on to the boards, and you'll find plenty of people complaining.

Really funny to read on twitter how you accused Adam of being singled minded and only caring about his own opinion, when that's exactly what you were banned for! Ignoring pleas for a more leveled approach, and responding to a warning by saying 'ban me then!' left us little choice.

Lets not drag out issues onto other sites, but think you need to reassess what your conduct was like on WENB. Your posts here are very pleasant, the split personality on WENB wasn't needed.



Again, it's a shame I always have to respond by suggesting you don't focus on the score and focus on the text of any reviews. Everyone is so focused on the score, when you should read how I got there.

Lets not forget the game hit in October, and we're now in Feb. Am I not allowed to change some of my opinions after 4/5months of extensive play? Have you always stuck to a score/opinion throughout your lifetime playing it?

Overall, a review is an opinion. To pull me up on giving it a 9 is like trying to say I'm wrong. If you say it's worth 7/8, am I going to tell you you're wrong? Of course not.

To be fair you dont have to respond, respect to you Alan. when you say focus on score, then why put a score in the first place? why bother? you gave the 9 out of 10, you didnt have to and yes of course I read the review, why wouldnt I? The score is the final stamp on the template of the review, is someone going to say a game is total shite like Vampire Rain on Xbox 360 and then give it a score that does not reflect that view?

Yes I know the game hit in October, which is a gap from August so surely you must of noticed the differences between August and the October build? You dont review games on a regular basis so wasnt you given time to notice the differences and opinion you gave today on the WENB forums?

When I play a game I usually play it all the way through and give it the verdict, usually after a few hours I get a feeling of how good or bad the final product is but I finish it anyway. I cannot remember a time I changed my opinion after finishing a game. PES is different of course, it takes a few days to grasp, so where the differences between August and final build that hard to notice after a few days play?

 

[curdstar]

Okay, okay. Sorry for wasting everyone's time. PES 2012 is brilliant.

Thanks.

See you next year!

Come on now mate, that's not what I'm saying.

Lets concentrate on improving the game together as a community and forget about animosity. Agree to disagree on how a site conducts itself and move on.

 

[curdstar]

To be fair you dont have to respond, respect to you Alan. when you say focus on score, then why put a score in the first place? why bother? you gave the 9 out of 10, you didnt have to and yes of course I read the review, why wouldnt I? The score is the final stamp on the template of the review, is someone going to say a game is total shite like Vampire Rain on Xbox 360 and then give it a score that does not reflect that view?

Yes I know the game hit in October, which is a gap from August so surely you must of noticed the differences between August and the October build? You dont review games on a regular basis so wasnt you given time to notice the differences and opinion you gave today on the WENB forums?

When I play a game I usually play it all the way through and give it the verdict, usually after a few hours I get a feeling of how good or bad the final product is but I finish it anyway. I cannot remember a time I changed my opinion after finishing a game. PES is different of course, it takes a few days to grasp, so where the differences between August and final build that hard to notice after a few days play?

Your first point is something I do feel strongly about, and how a score isn't needed in a review. Unfortunately, that is something that goes completely against the grain. Ideally we'd stay away from it, but for many a review without a score is like a duck without a pond.

I don't think you can actually score football games in the same way as say a Batman or Uncharted. What makes them brilliant can equally make them horrid the same time next month. Also, as we all know with PES games and what Lami has touched on, a few days or even a few weeks with PES is usually not long enough to get a true grasp of the game.

Patches for PES have made it even more difficult this year, with the goal posts moving all the time. Don't forget my review came from a copy that was given to me a few weeks before launch, before all the gameplay patches hit.

Bit by bit I've found them good in certain aspects, and perhaps take way things I found a pleasure previously. So it's not as if I would change my score soon after launch, as I would need time to fully assess the pros and cons, but over time is easy to see why someone would change their mind or have a difference of opinion.

I'll always be open to criticism because I put my thoughts on the front of a site rather than in a forum where it's soon forgotten, but it would be good for some of the more level headed folks to understand it should be accepted if my views do change over the course of the year. Especially if I articulate why.

 

[Daytripper]

Your first point is something I do feel strongly about, and how a score isn't needed in a review. Unfortunately, that is something that goes completely against the grain. Ideally we'd stay away from it, but for many a review without a score is like a duck without a pond.

I don't think you can actually score football games in the same way as say a Batman or Uncharted. What makes them brilliant can equally make them horrid the same time next month. Also, as we all know with PES games and what Lami has touched on, a few days or even a few weeks with PES is usually not long enough to get a true grasp of the game.

Patches for PES have made it even more difficult this year, with the goal posts moving all the time. Don't forget my review came from a copy that was given to me a few weeks before launch, before all the gameplay patches hit.

Bit by bit I've found them good in certain aspects, and perhaps take way things I found a pleasure previously. So it's not as if I would change my score soon after launch, as I would need time to fully assess the pros and cons, but over time is easy to see why someone would change their mind or have a difference of opinion.

I'll always be open to criticism because I put my thoughts on the front of a site rather than in a forum where it's soon forgotten, but it would be good for some of the more level headed folks to understand it should be accepted if my views do change over the course of the year. Especially if I articulate why.

Alright then mate, we move on. As you said to the other poster we all want a great PES. Thanks for replying.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

The moral of the story is dont lead people up the garden path, None of this "PES 2012 is a game for the fans" nonsense, i mean how many times did you guys say this!

It's clear that being in bed with Konami severely clouds judgement or it restricts what you can and cant say before release.

 

[Jamezinho]

Just to add to the WENB review discussion, I agree with Daytripper in that a review score isn't required. In fact, the way I see it putting a review out before game release is not strictly necessary either.

I feel they are conforming to convention, i.e give the game a score of x/10 and get it out before the game hits the shelves. Perhaps this review format should be left to the mainstream gaming media? After all, their business is offering consumer advice, whereas a site like WENB, on the other hand, is a fansite and very specialist/niche in it's nature. In all likelihood 99% of site visitors have already played PES via the demos and know the product inside out, so the WENB review is preaching to the converted if you like.

A better approach, in my opinion, would be to do a review at least a month after release, and do it in a more lengthy editorial format. That way all the game's good and bad points are given ample time to rise to the surface and every corner of the game can be explored. We all know the game can change radically between codes and often for the worse when it comes to the retail version. Post release patching is something that affects nearly every release these days and said patches can change the final product. I'd say it's better to review the game once the dust has settled. After all, the WENB review is not there for consumer advice as such, nor to sell the game (or I'd hope not anyway!), but it should be the site's opinion of the game. Nothing more.

A good example is InsideSimRacing.com, a site dedicated to racing games. It's quite common for them to review a game or product months after release. For instance, Forza 4 was released at almost the same time as PES2012 but the ISR review was only posted a couple of days ago.....

http://insidesimracing.tv/videos/view/695/0/Inside-Sim-Racing-Episodes

And yes, Jessica Lopez is hot.

Edit - for what it's worth, there is no way in the world that PES2012 is worth a 9/10 review score. Even demo one, which I really enjoyed, would only get an 8/10 for me. You have to review games with their peers in mind, not just other football games or sports games, but the rest of the gaming world in general. Even if I was enamoured by the gameplay, PES2012 is so technically deficient in all areas that a 9/10 score is ludicrous when you think about it.

The final product would get a 6/10 from me because Konami, by some miracle, successfully sucked all the life out of a very promising first demo.

 

[Rantboy]

Last night I fired up PES2012 for the first time this year, hoping that some time away will do me good. Perhaps I've been to harsh on the game? Unfortunately not. Two games in and I turned it off again.

Without wishing to tread over old ground again, what strikes me the most about PES2012 is how it's almost completely lacking in fun. It's a complete grind to play. Even the simple act of knocking the ball about looks and feels awkward, sluggish and lethargic. Every game involves a siege on an entrenched defence. Every long shot I attempt is magically charged down by a defender. In the event that I do find some space to get a decent shot away from outside the area, the ball is struck with all the venom of a toddler toe-punting a full-size football.

The simple things in PES used to be fun. Spraying the ball around, taking shots on goal, beating a man. All of these things just feel wrong these days. I'm not asking for a fully-assisted arcade game, but there is something to be said for the way arcade elements can make a football game so much fun and addictive.

That's a great post Jamezinho, I can totally relate to that. Having bought the game when it was released, I hated it. Still I tried giving it a chance for a couple of weeks before moving home. I left my console behind and spent some 2 months before setting myself up with another PS3 and then it was time to give it another chance, thinking this lay-off time would make me enjoy the game. Much like you, I was wrong.

There's no fun element for me in it. The simple things that were enjoyable, they're all gone! For instance, the good old days when you could beat a man just by dribbling on the D-Pad and using the right timing are far gone. And this infamous R2 + X lock-on system ruined it even more. While the AI handle our attackers with ease, it's a complete nightmare for me to stop AI's attacking players, who come dribbling through 4 or 5 defenders. This is the biggest and most frustrating issue for me.

Moreover, it just feels wrong when you have to break down the defences, all teams (from Wigan to Barcelona) seem to park the bus deep and it becomes, like you said, a grind to play against. Through balls can't beat those defences and I find myself playing though balls and hitting them early with a CPU defender still ahead of me and scoring in totally unrealistic ways. I don't score well worked goals anymore, I hardly celebrate or enjoy myself... The other day I was playing a Libertadores Cup with my club, Fluminense, and the whole thing felt more like an "obligation" than anything else, like "win the Cup with my team, check", just business. After I did it, PES2012 was put on my drawer. It shall only be touched again if a friend comes to play versus.

For the first time I have to admit that FIFA comes out as a far superior game in comparison. I just gave it a chance and was amazed with the depth of the game, not only the bigger variety of in-game situations, but the attention to detail and options that EA has obviously put a lot more effort than KONAMI.
I have to say I enjoy more a game of FIFA now and don't feel cheated when the CPU beats me (which is a lot).

I don't think, however, that either game is worthy of our dedication as it used to be on the past, as we have less and less time and there are far greater things being developed on this generation, so this year I'll be spending my PS3 time slots with the likes of AC Revelations, Modern Warfare or Batman Arkham City.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

Just to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons - if you still find that more of your shots are underpowered weak offerings, you need to spend more time on it. Know your player's shooting strengths and make sure you hold the button down longer than you're used to. I'd say only 10% of my shots aren't powerful enough, for what I expected from the button press and context.

Not saying the shooting is anywhere near perfect, but you can definitely hit rockets or nicely placed shots at will. No dis-respect Jamez, but 2 games in and the game plays the same way - maybe you could try to play it differently. Change your camera angle, or the way you like to play. What have you got to lose?

 

[Jamezinho]

Just to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons - if you still find that more of your shots are underpowered weak offerings, you need to spend more time on it. Know your player's shooting strengths and make sure you hold the button down longer than you're used to. I'd say only 10% of my shots aren't powerful enough, for what I expected from the button press and context.

Not saying the shooting is anywhere near perfect, but you can definitely hit rockets or nicely placed shots at will. No dis-respect Jamez, but 2 games in and the game plays the same way - maybe you could try to play it differently. Change your camera angle, or the way you like to play. What have you got to lose?

With the greatest amount of respect, you're trying to gloss over the issue I have with the shooting mechanic by placing the fault with the user (me) rather than the deficiencies of the game.

Having played football games for over twenty years I like to think I know what feels right and what feels wrong. The shooting in PES is very wrong, and, by contrast, Fifa (for once) does it a lot better.

Let's get this straight, I nearly always play PES with Champions League clubs - teams with quality players front to back. For instance, the other night I played as Barca and then as Bayern Munich. Are you seriously telling me that world class players like David Villa and Mario Gomez can't hit a shot with a bit of venom more often than not? And before you start talking about body position, players feet location, etc.....yep, I've done all that. As I said, I've played an unhealthy amount of PES since 2001. I know how it works. And even then, an off-balance Villa or Gomez can still hit a shot with some power. That's why they play at the level they do.

To be honest I'm sick of all the excuses, all the "this game is the deepest ever and you just don't get it" rhetoric. Bollocks.

The shooting in the game is wrong.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Moreover, it just feels wrong when you have to break down the defences, all teams (from Wigan to Barcelona) seem to park the bus deep and it becomes, like you said, a grind to play against. Through balls can't beat those defences and I find myself playing though balls and hitting them early with a CPU defender still ahead of me and scoring in totally unrealistic ways.

For the first time I have to admit that FIFA comes out as a far superior game in comparison. I just gave it a chance and was amazed with the depth of the game, not only the bigger variety of in-game situations, but the attention to detail and options that EA has obviously put a lot more effort

Yup, you're bang on with these comments. I don't care how much anyone claims PES recreates, say, fundamentals of body positioning when shooting, or any technical recreations of ball control etc. I don't care because beyond this the fundamentals of how real football is played out between two teams is totally wrong. Matches in PES2012 are one dimensional, they do play out the same no matter your opponent, be it Barcelona or Stoke, and this is where, for me, any pretentions of PES being a sim or replication of the game fall down quite spectacularly. The game utterly fails on all levels to replicate a CPU opponent that has any sense of variety or play as they would in real life. I don't expect miracles from a game but I do expect, in 2012, that Konami should by now be able to see a CPU Barcelona dominate me in terms of possession. Instead, I could play as Wigan and still have 60% of the play every time, with the only difference being how hard the CPU presses you with defenders and how devastating they are on the counter attack. Totally unrealistic, no matter what other aspects the game might get right.

FIFA12 on the other hand has taken giant strides this year and continues to astonish me how well the CPU opposition replicates CPU possession and periods of pressure in games that ebb and flow. I lost a game today at Arsenal where I took an early lead, got heavily pressured, then pegged back, before the game swung each way in periods of pressure before the final 20 minutes seeing Arsenal slowly wind up the pressure so I could barely get out of my half before buckling and conceding a winner late on.

Despite losing, I loved the match itself because it played out exactly how a tough trip to Arsenal would play out, with me narrowly failing to hold on to a slow start by Arsenal and the CPU ended up finishing on 57% of the ball over the 90 minutes. This, I never see in PES, ever. For me there's the core difference between the two, why I think FIFA12 is the more realistic. If I'd have played the same fixture in PES2012 I'd have dominated the ball, with the only difference between Arsensl and a lesser team being that Arsenal would pressure faster and stronger, and they'd have still sat back and caught me on the break a couple of times. It's old and boring.

I appreciate FIFA needs tightening up in certain areas such as ball control but overall its reputation this year is unjust and tempered by older versions of rhe game, from FIFA11 down, which were indeed horrible arcadey messes. This year EA have done a brilliant job and made so many key areas more realistic. The addition of sliders enables you to enhance those to get a game in my opinion far in excess of PES. Not for the way ball control etc is portrayed, like I said, but because the replication of a real match against real opponents is vastly more varied and realistic. If I go to the Nou Camp in FIFA12 I will brace myself and expect to manfully be chasing shadows for most of the match. The complete opposite is true of PES2012.

Just my two cents.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

...In the event that I do find some space to get a decent shot away from outside the area, the ball is struck with all the venom of a toddler toe-punting a full-size football...

As I said (or maybe implied) before, I've never said the shooting on PES is perfect, far from it and I agree that there's a lot that FIFA does which makes more sense and is more consistent on the shooting, but in reference to your comment above, which I've quoted, you are suggesting that even with time and space and all the stars aligned, you still can't get a good shot off.

THAT to me is not down the game, when I can hit those types of shots off with no problems. And I'm no PES expert.

I agree that the off balance shots or whatever they are, could look more natural and less awkward/floaty/trickly.

But no way can you not get a good powerful strike off if you have time and space. Not buying it sorry.

 

[Jamezinho]

As I said (or maybe implied) before, I've never said the shooting on PES is perfect, far from it and I agree that there's a lot that FIFA does which makes more sense and is more consistent on the shooting, but in reference to your comment above, which I've quoted, you are suggesting that even with time and space and all the stars aligned, you still can't get a good shot off.

THAT to me is not down the game, when I can hit those types of shots off with no problems. And I'm no PES expert.

I agree that the off balance shots or whatever they are, could look more natural and less awkward/floaty/trickly.

But no way can you not get a good powerful strike off if you have time and space. Not buying it sorry.

Where did I say I can't get a powerful strike off? What I have said is that, more often than not, shooting with top quality players results in a limp, vague shot, often not even in the direction I aimed for. If I was under serious pressure from a defender fair enough, but when I'm running straight at goal, in a bit of space with someone like David Villa, and the resultant strike is soft and floaty then the shooting mechanic is wrong somewhere.

 

[ccshopland]

Yup, you're bang on with these comments. I don't care how much anyone claims PES recreates, say, fundamentals of body positioning when shooting, or any technical recreations of ball control etc. I don't care because beyond this the fundamentals of how real football is played out between two teams is totally wrong. Matches in PES2012 are one dimensional, they do play out the same no matter your opponent, be it Barcelona or Stoke, and this is where, for me, any pretentions of PES being a sim or replication of the game fall down quite spectacularly. The game utterly fails on all levels to replicate a CPU opponent that has any sense of variety or play as they would in real life. I don't expect miracles from a game but I do expect, in 2012, that Konami should by now be able to see a CPU Barcelona dominate me in terms of possession. Instead, I could play as Wigan and still have 60% of the play every time, with the only difference being how hard the CPU presses you with defenders and how devastating they are on the counter attack. Totally unrealistic, no matter what other aspects the game might get right.

FIFA12 on the other hand has taken giant strides this year and continues to astonish me how well the CPU opposition replicates CPU possession and periods of pressure in games that ebb and flow. I lost a game today at Arsenal where I took an early lead, got heavily pressured, then pegged back, before the game swung each way in periods of pressure before the final 20 minutes seeing Arsenal slowly wind up the pressure so I could barely get out of my half before buckling and conceding a winner late on.

Despite losing, I loved the match itself because it played out exactly how a tough trip to Arsenal would play out, with me narrowly failing to hold on to a slow start by Arsenal and the CPU ended up finishing on 57% of the ball over the 90 minutes. This, I never see in PES, ever. For me there's the core difference between the two, why I think FIFA12 is the more realistic. If I'd have played the same fixture in PES2012 I'd have dominated the ball, with the only difference between Arsensl and a lesser team being that Arsenal would pressure faster and stronger, and they'd have still sat back and caught me on the break a couple of times. It's old and boring.

I appreciate FIFA needs tightening up in certain areas such as ball control but overall its reputation this year is unjust and tempered by older versions of rhe game, from FIFA11 down, which were indeed horrible arcadey messes. This year EA have done a brilliant job and made so many key areas more realistic. The addition of sliders enables you to enhance those to get a game in my opinion far in excess of PES. Not for the way ball control etc is portrayed, like I said, but because the replication of a real match against real opponents is vastly more varied and realistic. If I go to the Nou Camp in FIFA12 I will brace myself and expect to manfully be chasing shadows for most of the match. The complete opposite is true of PES2012.

Just my two cents.

Do you know what, it really, really pains me, but I have a feeling that you are right LTFC?!?

I have played PES to death now, tried everything from the patches to this and that, everything. Whilst I can get something out of the game, the game has to be played in a certain way for 'things' not to just break. I have been trying my best to slow the game down, but adjusting gamespeed alone does just that, adjusts the whole speed of the game to where it becomes unresponsive. I have tried the gameplay tweaks with Jenkey and Yair is doing a fantastic job, but all they can do is iron out the cracks, they cannot fill the cracks.

I have been a staunch PES supporter, and although I played both game last year I absolutely smashed PES 2011 warts and all. I played FIFA 11, and it was good, but there were glaring issues like the repetitive CPU headed goals and the pressure abuse.

I have played PES 2012 far more than FIFA this year, but this last week I have really sat down and tried to get the best out of FIFA and gave myself a target of 20 games, win, lose or draw, scripts, momentum and all for the first time just out of frustration really. And do you know what, I may not be turning back to PES!

My main issues with FIFA this year was the lack of 'off the cuff' pressure which PES can replicate brilliantly. By this, I mean that I don't simply want to go from A to B to C via a series of diagonal passes up the opponents half with my opposition just mirroring me all the time. This was a major gripe with FIFA and something that couldn't be fixed with the sliders alone. Eventually I worked my way through professional, to world class, and now, finally, I am playing at Legendary level.

THIS ADDS TO THE GAMEPLAY IMMEASURABLY - now the CPU, together with the adjustment of the marking stat to make games tighter sees the CPU mirror me when necessary but also is more aggressive to any 50/50 passes and generally tried to mix the game up a little.

I had a major, major moment of enlightenment/clarification yesterday, just as I had one with PES about a month or so ago, where suddenly the game became crystal clear, and I knew what I had to do to a) win b)to get the most out of the game.

I was a staunch, staunch, PES realism advocate. I am not ashamed to change my opinion or alter it in any way; I want the best football experience so although my loyalty is with PES, I feel I have to give all games equal chance to impress. I have gotten everything I possibly can out of PES, I play on Superstar level, zero assists, I have found my formation, playing style, and know how the game works, Only now am I delving into the detail of FIFA to try and get to grips with it.

Don't get me wrong here guys, I still like PES, but there are still 'broken' aspects which is stopping it from being a killer for me.

So here's where my view starts I guess -

LTFC is right; I didn't see it first or didn't have the right settings or playing mentality. I was trying to play FIFA like PES, even though I play PES like PES. In my 'moment of clarity' yesterday I now have a far greater understanding of the game, how moves are constructed, how the opposition plays, how I am supposed to defend, and where I have been going wrong for months.

FIFA can easily be dismissed as the cheap for thrills product this year, but that would be to under-estimate the title. After prolonged use of both, ans then comparing and contrasting, for the first time this year, I am starting to feel a little embarrassed about the two, and it's not just an animations/pretty shiny issue either, it's more core fundamental than that. At first, the active AI I thought was the saviour of PES, but the more I look at it, I think this is where the main problems surface. Players are now just too active. If I watch or even play a game of PES, now all I see and feel is players, to a man, running left, right and centre, never stopping, never taking a breather. The result, is a very quick game which is supposed to be played very quickly. I get joy out of playing on professional far more than on Superstar for example, it's just that the game becomes too easy. On Superstar, the game needs to be played at a frantic high tempo pace, just to break defences down.

FIFA is more considered, with slider changes albeit. I'm thinking of both titles now as PES being the highlights reel of Match of the Day, with constant end to end counter attacks, and FIFA as being the actual game played out in it's entirety. I play on 10 minute halves on FIFA because for me, this is where I have time to actually play the game and build something, any time less, and I feel rushed and the whole gameplay comes crumbling down; FIFA definitely isn't get from A to B as quickly as possible type of game... I have now learned this.

The animations are obviously top notch, the passing and physics are excellent, the shooting (after prolonged getting to grips) is excellent. Player interaction is very good, and looking at both games again, is probably about the right mix of player movement (if you increase player runs to around 70).

The TWO areas which is why I have kind of given up on PES for the moment, is the feeling of rails which is now undeniable, and just the way the players behave with the ball and how they generally receive it and turn with it. PES is just way, way too quick in this department, with players seemingly having the flexibility and quickness of reflex that Yoda would be proud of. When players in FIFA receive the ball, they control it, have to adjust body position, and the whole process takes a second or two which is what it would be like for a human. It's this slowing down of the game in micro-capsules that stops the game from becoming an arcade end to end fest. This and the fact that players have acceleration. Carroll for example on PES is like the road runner, where on FIFA he is slow to get off the mark, but does retain the ball well etc.

I also want to address issues I have had big concerns about in FIFA and kind of put them to bed. I have been a big, big momentum/cheating/45/90 minute goal problem man. BUT, I will say, as I have become more proficient at FIFA, these types of things are becoming rarer and rarer as I am getting better. Kind of like the first time I thought how do you stop these dribblers in PES before I mastered the jockey hold principle.

I do think it's right that the game opens up in the late stages of a game, especially if one team is winning/losing, this is human nature. Like LTFC said, I had a game v Arsenal yesterday where I had the better of the first half, they had much the better of the second. I scored an early goal, but ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE GAME, they were the better team on the ball, and I could sense it. They kept possession like Arsenal would, dominating me in large spells, and I was left pretty much for the entire second half to rely on sparse counters. I just about held off for a 1-0 win at Highbury, but I left that game feeling a rush, something I hadn't experienced for ages; the feeling of being dominated by a technically better team. The possession stats said 53-47 to Arsenal, but quite honestly I expected and felt, like it was like 60% to Arsenal, they were that good. But I matched them near enough defensively, set out my stall, and dropped players behind the ball every Arsenal attack, and they just couldn't find that one clear chance.

PES is beginning to play out exactly the same; I near enough always have anything from between 55% to 62% possession, and the CPU seems absolutely dead keen on surrendering possession. On the higher levels, they attack very, very directly. Mostly, the CPU will rely on counter attacks, as all your active AI players steam roller forwards and beyond the ball leaving you exposed to a two on two at the back.

BIG AREAS OF CONCERN RE-FIFA -

The 45/90 minute goals can be countered but it is a mental thing, and you have to bring players behind the ball from midfield to counter ANY CPU cheating/moving your players during this period - this is a big NO-NO from EA, take it OUT NOW for next year.

Variation in play - there needs to be varied aerial threat. Even Arsenal can spring the odd surprise and go long sometimes; but going long shouldn't be a pre-requisite for cheating to get one on one, it should be seen as a variant on an attack that will bring the game to more life with varied bounces and bobbles after the aerial contest, something that PES does so well, having the ball be an actual entity that can literally bounce and bobble anywhere.

Momentum - Jury is still out on this for me. I was a MASSIVE FIFA is cheating me, momentum man. But I do see the logic also of the other argument, that as a team losing you are going to attack more and try more risks than if you weren't. I also think that as my own defensive play becomes much better and I am starting to draw support from the midfield more, these CPU glitch one on ones are becoming less frequent, but you still have to watch your player like a hawk. I don't know if it's a built in thing that says 'right once player A goes 1-0 up then game=skitz', but I do feel little nuances in the gameplay. For example, if I string together a series of moves that break down, the CPU seem to grow 'stronger' and there feels like a force whereby the CPU team move up the pitch and start cramping me for room, it is at this time where passes have to be precise.

There are also phases of the game where you have to accept that you are going to be second best, and you just have to sit in and defend. I now know when to press and when to drop back.

I never use the contain button; for me this is the most useless piece of shit ever. I just manually control my players all the time.

So anyway that's it.

This isn't designed to be a 'I hate PES' rant, I see the beauty with both games now, that's all I am saying. PES needs to tighten up and become more sim-like in the way the players structure themselves on the pitch, get its act together with the presentation and stop the insane CPU cheating at the higher levels. FIFA needs to get a portion of that 'bottle of PES magic' which makes the game more alive somehow.

Whichever floats your boat, happy playing!

 

[henrys hand]

I think what was so great about PES 5 was that it hit that sweet spot between arcade and simulation nearly perfectly. When playing PES 5 you have that sense of empowerment when you have a good player on the ball, you use him to create a bit of space in the defense and then you see a team-member run into that space and you get to make that killer-pass... A great feeling occurs...

The beauty of it is that it rewards more than one style of gameplay, you can use the abilities of your top-players to make space or you can celebrate some nice passing-combinations to achieve that, you can either play fast or you take your time and build up your play slowly, all of it is possible and can be mixed.

It all works so well because the players themselves have abilities to hold the ball, to control it, to use their physics, speed and acceleration as well as dribbling to make a little bit of room for themselves and thanks to good ball physics it feels great and somewhat realistic.

And yet despite the abilities it doesn't feel cheap or easy because the CPU-AI is good at closing you down and intercepting the ball and countering you so that the matches are rather thrilling.

Of course PES 5 is not perfect, many elements of it are dated and already done better in PES 2012 and Fifa 12, but the feeling of empowerment, thrill and fun is somewhat lost in the newer games.

So at least I thought till yesterday night: I played wild with the sliders in Fifa 12 and I found that increasing acceleration of players (both mine and CPU) to 75 and higher really brought back the feeling of empowerment and fun I was missing. I played with 85 acceleration and it was an unbelievable fun arcade-ride. You could create space and hold to the ball longer and therefore allow for situations to occur where you can make killer-passes... It was great fun although a bit extreme fast to look at and a bit too chaotic to be realistic.

Now all I have to do is to find that sweet spot between acceleration and top-speed to make the game fun and realistic at the same time. I guess I have to reduce top-speed to about 35-40 and set acceleration on 70-75, setting pass-speed on 65, while increasing shot/pass-inaccuracy to make the game come alive while being realistic.

These sliders are fantastic, you can really create the game how you want it to be, I only wish there were some more sliders and that you could host online games with these slidersettings as well as all the other settings.

By the way I'm playing on legendary now and find the CPU-AI too easy to be realistic, for Fifa 13 I wish it to become more effective and willing to win, but without cheating.

 

[pj_puttz]

Sometimes it doesn't work, but hey I understand it's a game and it ain't perfect.

Anyway, despite it's flaws, I really like PES 2012.

Those comments sum up the difference between you and I perfectly.

You are simply a lot easier to please than I am when it comes to football games. This is why you think I am exaggerating and why you claim to not experience the same things I do when playing PES 2012. You are just a lot more forgiving than I am and a lot more willing to turn a blind eye to obvious flaws.

To me, someone who admits a game "sometimes doesn't work" then goes on to say they still "really enjoy it" is ridiculous. I mean just how many broken, flawed games do you waste your time and money on in your gaming lifetime? Or is it only with PES you are willing to overlook such things?

It makes no sense to me but good luck to you. It's your life and your opinion and you're entitled to it.

 

[romagnoli]

Oh and Jimmy?



Get a life mate FFS.

I'm 99% certain Jimmy has had and continues to have far more of a life than you.

 

[pj_puttz]

I'm 99% certain Jimmy has had and continues to have far more of a life than you.

How generous of you to leave that 1% margin for error! You're normally 100% sure you're right in everything you say.

I guess guys like you and Jimmy think it's pretty cool to spend hours of your spare time typing out lengthy articles to "break down technically" an average at best football game in the vain hope that people will read it and think "OMG! I've been wrong all this time! PES 2012 really IS a fantastic game! Thanks Jimmy!"

Seriously, PES is not a religion you should be trying to convert people to. It's a bloody game.

Anyone who wants to waste large amounts of their spare time writing in depth essays simply to justify their opinion of a game should take a wee step back from that game IMO.

 

[romagnoli]

I am 100% right in virtually everything I say, to be fair.

I generally don't write that much nowadays because, whereas this site used to have a lot of other posters who would have something insightful to contribute off the back of a long post, nowadays the standard has dropped dramatically. Most of the posts and comments here just aren't interesting or revealing anymore, chiefly because most of the contributors don't have the capacity to do so on a regular basis (which is sad for those few who are still worth following but are drowned out by the new crowd).

Incidentally, did you not want to direct that comment about wasting time with long articles at any of the above posters too? Or just at those who disagree with you?