The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

Which PES 2012 version do you prefer?

  • Total voters
    233
  • Poll closed .
LTFC said:
I have no clue why Konami went down the cheap route on current consoles and tried squeezing a current gen game into a past generation engine designed for PS2. It baffles me. I'm just remaining optimistic that now those shackles will hopefully be removed from the series that they can be free to create something good again.

I think there's a greater chance of this happening if Konami take their time to redevelop the game from scratch, rather than rushing to get it out this year. Who knows, they may yet continue in the same way as recent games and mess it up again, but at least a new engine will provide some potential for the series.

Yes, current gen PES is a mess. And yes, despite this their marketing dept will still talk up the game every year. That's just business. But if the next gen games turn out to be really good, then I personally won't give a shit what happened in the past. I just want a decent football game and if it delivers on the next consoles then so be it. That doesn't change my opinion on the current state of PES being a shambles though.
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I'm actually really intrigued to see what Konami do next-gen, i.e how much any of their games (including PES of course) are invested in. The only series they invested in this generation was the Metal Gear series and one would assume that given it was somewhat of a flagship title for the PS3 that Sony had something to do with the amount of money that was invested into that game. Kojima Productions itself probably put a lot of money towards the game too.

There's really no Konami title this gen other than MGS that strikes me as having been invested in a great deal.
 
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Yeah Konami in general seem to have been left behind in all of their games to be honest. This past year has basically seen them release PES2012, a dodgy Silent Hill game, Metal Gear Solid remakes in HD and a handful of Japanese releases. There's absolutely nothing original coming out of Konami these days so it will be very interesting to see what they will do in the future.
 
curdstar said:
Now that is bullshit. For all that you and others might think about PES and it's tech, to say this or the last game were built using a PS2 engine is utter bullshit. It might be limited and yes, ugly but a PS2 engine? Nope.
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It's a modified version of it, yes. Just like Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare runs on a modified version of id Tech 3. Quake III Arena came out in 1999...
Ninja Gaiden II came out in 2008 and runs on Dead or Alive 2: Ultimate's engine. Need more examples?

Had Konami created a proprietary next-gen engine like Capcom did, a lot of the problems that we have with PES wouldn't exist. Not to mention they could use it across the board and it would be much cheaper long-term. Instead of modifying their old engines to make them suitable for 720p. FOX engine may be a step in the right direction, but Japanese developers don't share tech on a regular-basis, not even within the same company.
 
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LTFC said:
Yeah Konami in general seem to have been left behind in all of their games to be honest. This past year has basically seen them release PES2012, a dodgy Silent Hill game, Metal Gear Solid remakes in HD and a handful of Japanese releases. There's absolutely nothing original coming out of Konami these days so it will be very interesting to see what they will do in the future.
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There's very little coming out of the Japanese gaming industry as a whole in my opinion. Certainly very little that interests me anyway. It's so sad because once upon a time Japan was the centre of the games industry, where all the innovation and technical advances originated from during the nineties.

Looking through my collection of recent games, I only have two from Japan - PES and GT5 - both of which are disappointing in their own way, both of which are case studies for where it all went wrong for the Japanese developers. Complacency and an insular approach to the games industry outside Japan has taken a terrible toll.
 
Dark Souls is the exception that proves the rule. It's as western a Japanese game as I've played in a long time. Crucially though, it's a lot of the japanese elements to it that make it such a great title - Skyrim was good but was so generic by comparison. I know I'd have done a lot of things differently, particularly with playing up the Scandinavian/Icelandic influence and going for something far bleaker. There's still nothing that compares to Ico or SotC from the west either.
 
Yeah when the Japanese do something well, it certainly can eclipse anything Western companies can do. Ico and SoC are my two favourite games and are so subtle and beautifully designed, which is why I'm gutted that The Last Guardian might now be canned altogether :(
 
Western games make up in technology what they lack in craftsmanship. And they are seriously lacking in craftsmanship.
 
I'm a but too late with this but don't blame Adam for everything in your life.

He was quick to hint about the new engine because he's too excited to keep quiet, and eagerly wants everyone to know about it. I don't blame him at all. He's seen the negativity and frustration over the years and when he's finally been told they have a new engine in place he couldn't stop himself. That's very normal. That's what's expected from a true fan I suppose. We all wanted it for ages, ever since 360 and PS3 were out.

They suddenly decided to not waste effort on this gen and delayed it til next gen, which imho makes sense. This way they have more time to get it properly done, which we also have been wanting them to do as well and bring out a more complete project.

Fix 2012 for next year, but concentrate on next-gen from now. They do not want to repeat the same mistake with PS4/Xbox720. They want to be ready and familiar with next-gen tech. Look at this gen's Konami efforts, they're 5-6 late imo.

Anyway, Adam shared the word on the new tech thing then also was quick to inform everyone it's not happening. Cut him some slack. He's not a decision maker at Konami. He doesn't work at their HQ in Japan. Whatever decisions they take is not his fault.
 
Lami said:
I'm a but too late with this but don't blame Adam for everything in your life.

He was quick to hint about the new engine because he's too excited to keep quiet, and eagerly wants everyone to know about it. I don't blame him at all. He's seen the negativity and frustration over the years and when he's finally been told they have a new engine in place he couldn't stop himself. That's very normal. That's what's expected from a true fan I suppose. We all wanted it for ages, ever since 360 and PS3 were out.

They suddenly decided to not waste effort on this gen and delayed it til next gen, which imho makes sense. This way they have more time to get it properly done, which we also have been wanting them to do as well and bring out a more complete project.

Fix 2012 for next year, but concentrate on next-gen from now. They do not want to repeat the same mistake with PS4/Xbox720. They want to be ready and familiar with next-gen tech. Look at this gen's Konami efforts, they're 5-6 late imo.

Anyway, Adam shared the word on the new tech thing then also was quick to inform everyone it's not happening. Cut him some slack. He's not a decision maker at Konami. He doesn't work at their HQ in Japan. Whatever decisions they take is not his fault.
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Lami, with all due respect fella, I don't think you know the ground swell of opinion that is absolutely brimming with rage at the momnent!

I like you, and whilst I can 'get something' out of PES, the vast, vast majority can't.

Phrases like this 'They suddenly decided to not waste effort on this gen and delayed it til next gen, which imho makes sense' and 'Fix 2012 for next year' will rile those very people up further.

This 'fix 2012 for next year' also makes MY blood boil I must say, and I am starting to get very, very annoyed at KOANMI. The reason? Because of the community memebers who have put heart and soul into making this partially broken game just fkin work! People like Chimps, Yair, Jenkey who spend hours making patches and editing stats, people and teams who bring out the kits, transfers, emblems etc. Actually the more I think of it, and the more work these people do, the more KONAMI are infuriating me.

For example, over this last month we have had a team started by Yair who are experimenting with different exes, getting shooting right, animations, shot power, shot direction, passing, gameplay, your AI the CPU AI, to try and get something out of this mess.

They have spent hours fiddling with this and that and it's proving hard, hard work because the KONAMI source code is so obviously pathetic. If you tweak this to work, something breaks, if you tweak that, it offsets something else. BUT, they are trying! Chimps has spend hours editing every play statistic, and putting into some sort of workable framework, BUT he cannot crack the CPU scripts that are in the PS3 version. Meanwhile sacores of people from all over the world are making transfer packs, HD stadiums, kits/emblems/player faces, tweaks for this and that; and what are KONAMI doing? Absolutely fkin nothing, counting their money and MAYBE planning on FIXING 2013?!!?!?

PES 2012 SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE DOGS BOLLOCKS; we were told it would blow our mind, we were told this was the year where PES had raised its game, we we told that this would be the definitive simulation of football. How fooled were we?

KONAMI ARE HAVING A FKIN LAUGH mate!

I buy into this fact; that the Japanese culture are so insular and self-contained that they see #help# from the outside as something sacrilegious. This quaint retro sweet 'oh look how the little Japanese do things, it's so refreshing' bullshit HAS TO STOP.

They need to bite the bullet now, take some huge risks, and Westernise, big time! Everyone needs to adapt; if you're a high street retailer and sales are down you adapt and get yourself into online retailing. It's all about markweting your product to the masses and giving the people what they want, and right now PES2012 is so far off the mark it's hilarious. There were vids on here the other day that showed PES 6 animations...PES 6...that was like a hundred years ago, and they are a hundred times BETTER than now?!?! How could that be?

Lami it is not a dig at you mate, but enough is enough! We have given KONAMI much, much more slack than any otherr games company in history. PES fans are the most loyal, dedicated, football mad people I have ever come across. Our PES faith is our main problem on times. No band of brothers comes together like the PES boys who dedicate the time and energy into making each release something workable. As someone who has shelled out £30 for the PC version, and two lots of £40 quid for the two PS3 versions, I demand some response from KONAMI and so do others. It is no getting beyond a joke. I have tried and tried and tried this year, I have spent hours on the PS3/PC trying different settings, different monitors, different versions, different patches etc etc. I have spent more time fkin about with the game than actually playing it. If you have the gameplay down to a tee, then the game is sluggish and players behave like robots. Too fast, and the animations make it look like Road Runner v Speedy Gonzales! Then you have to marry the exact gameplay speed, with the shot power and passing which can all go to pot, and then find a decent patch which fits into these settings (are the defence parking the bus, is the game open etc etc).

The bottom line is things are tight in my household at the moment. There are cutbacks everywhere. Everyone has to raises their game and with disposable income at an all time low, if KONAMI don't absolutely wow me with PES2013, then I'm afraid next gen can kiss my ass; and so can KONAMI!
 
I understand where you're coming from. It's a reason I've been away from this game since October/November. I've only started playing it again yesterday. Downloaded the latest patch and DLC. Something changed for me and it was playable. Maybe it was due to not playing for months, or maybe they did fix something. I am really enjoying it now. Question is, how long? ;)

About all the effort put in by members, it's always been the case mate. I'm not saying it's ok, but we've been shouting and screaming for ages now and only a little changed. I've always wanted/hoped Konami looked at these members and take them on board. They surely dig deep into the game and know it inside out. But then taking these guys to Japan would be a hassle, as I'm not sure anyone would go, which means second choice is to have Konami open a European HQ and not just a PR company. But I doubt that would happen.

Maybe you think the PES team are slacking, but I don't believe so. I think they put so much effort into tweaking/building this and that which unfortunately leads to a finalized product that seems unfinished, all because of their probably weird coding as you put it. For example, when I played the preview or beta version or whatever it was called, it played fabulously. The shooting blew me off my chair with all the different variations that were missing in 2011. Then the demo came and it was different again. Then the final version and the same story. They probably know all that and maybe they just can't get the balance right?

When I said I understand why Konami are scratching new engine for this gen and leaving it for next-gen, I meant it's better for us. Think about it. Many people infuriated like yourself want that perfect PES game for this gen. We all know they had problems moving from last-gen to this-gen. We don't want that to happen again, do we? I'd prefer they don't do the same mistake again and be very ready for next-gen. Therefore, I really don't mind them fixing up 2012 and concentrating more on next-gen, hopefully astonishing us all. Personally, for a while now I've wanted them to take a year break if that what it takes them to give us that game we all want.

We all agree to a point that this gen wasn't very good for PES. So let's just drop the high expectations and believe that it won't be happening for this gen.

And about the blood boiling part, you think I don't feel the same? I think Konami are 5-6 years too late with this game. This imo should have been the game we should've got back in 2006-2007.

And yes, if on next-gen they don't sweep us off our feet then they would be in trouble again.
 
In relation to this "new engine", does anyone know if the engine on current-gen is supposed to be a new engine in comparison with last-gen consoles?

I mean, to me (and plenty of others), the current engine just seems like a port from last-gen with attempts to add a few new things on top. The underlying "philosophy" of their AI seems unchanged (eg. same old cpu cheats ported from last-gen, resulting in essentially the same frustrations and generally, the same overall experience).

If this new engine is really just another port of their existing AI model to a new technical architecture, I can't see myself being particularly excited. However, if it's a complete rethink from the bottom up, then I have far more faith in them coming up with something interesting than EA and their bland, automated brand of football.
 
I think that the game is not a complete mess as someone on here make it appear

it's an extremely flawed game, but it still has many good elements.
The problem with it, at least for me, is that i was expecting Konami to build upon pes 2011,instead they decided to forget about the good things pes 2011 had, fixed some issues with the game, but introduced new ones.

One step forward, one step back. And so Pes is always at the same spot, not evolving, always being flawed, and becoming older and older with each new pes title.

About next gen consoles and next gen Pes: who knows what will happen. I can only hope it's true they decided to postpone the new engine to be fully prepared for next gen and it's not another lie.

@arthurm, i think Pes 2011 engine is the new engine compared to ps2 games.
 
I don't understand why Konami deciding to concentrate on the next gen consoles and to release next year's game on the current engine is riling people up. If they release a marginal update next year because they're ploughing their efforts into the next gen then don't buy next year's game and wait for the new consoles for the next PES game.

No-one's twisting anyone's arm into buying the next PES on current consoles.
 
LTFC said:
I don't understand why Konami deciding to concentrate on the next gen consoles and to release next year's game on the current engine is riling people up. If they release a marginal update next year because they're ploughing their efforts into the next gen then don't buy next year's game and wait for the new consoles for the next PES game.
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I will put money on the PS4 not being out when PES 2014 releases i'l also put money on PES 2014 not being on PS4 maybe the Japanese will see WE 2014 at a push as usually Sony release console's in Japan then America and Europe last...so this next year we will see a brand new engine on brand new console's doesnt sit well with me and PES 2014 will come round and we'l here those famous Konami words "Next Year" The sad thing is if PES 2012 was any good and we could see an amazing PES 2013 on the horizon we wouldn't be complaining so much.

As has been said PES is created solely on PC and ported like 99% of games now so there is no reason not to go with a new engine right now, Look at what Crytek have devoloped with the Cry Engine and EA's Dice with the Frostbite engine which has BF3 running on current console's no problem and future games will go onto the new console's no problem when they come around.

Using this tired and broke PS2 engine for yet another year is a joke tbh. If they had any sense they would drop it and give what the fans want if they refuse to get upto date technology wise.......PES 6 HD!
 
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There's always licensing. But I don't know if Konami isn't too cheap or blind to do it. Winning Eleven still sells very well.
 
LTFC said:
I don't understand why Konami deciding to concentrate on the next gen consoles and to release next year's game on the current engine is riling people up. If they release a marginal update next year because they're ploughing their efforts into the next gen then don't buy next year's game and wait for the new consoles for the next PES game.

No-one's twisting anyone's arm into buying the next PES on current consoles.
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I think the frustration stems from the likelihood that it will be October 2013 before we sample the next evolution of PES, and that's at the very earliest. Rumours suggest that the new consoles will hit late into 2013 but they are still only rumours. The wait could be another year longer, and also remember that although the 360 launched in November 2005 it was nearly a year later that PES arrived on the console. There is no guarantee that PES will be a launch title.

Given the above, such frustrations are understandable. Personally I'm in the middle. It's disappointing to have to wait longer and if PES2013 is more of the same I could give it a miss, but by delaying the new engine the end product should be worth the wait.
 
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Konami ought to just save some money and not bring anything out next year. Better yet if they insist on using the same game they should offer free squad updates for the next two years.:P
 
Jamezinho said:
Given the above, such frustrations are understandable. Personally I'm in the middle. It's disappointing to have to wait longer and if PES2013 is more of the same I could give it a miss, but by delaying the new engine the end product should be worth the wait.
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Sure, but the consumer doesn't have to wait, they can get their fix somewhere else or not get it at all. Konami doesn't seem to realize that people are moving further and further away from PES. The fact that they just pushed the engine to next-gen is just more proof of how detached from reality they are.

Unless PES 2013 is PES 6 (well, might as well make it WE9: LE) in HD, with all the technological restraints and gameplay restraints that it entails, I don't see how 2013 can be anything but another pathetic attempt at a football game, much like 2012 is. Between those 2 choices, I would rather have PES 6 in HD, at least it's enjoyable and fun. The downside of that is that they can't make the game feel and look like it belongs in this generation, with all the engine shortcomings for animation, hit detection and so forth.

It's a shitty situation. I'm not looking forward to 2013. Or 2014 for that matter. I'll just keep giving my money to EA.
 
Shikashi said:
Sure, but the consumer doesn't have to wait, they can get their fix somewhere else or not get it at all. Konami doesn't seem to realize that people are moving further and further away from PES. The fact that they just pushed the engine to next-gen is just more proof of how detached from reality they are.

Unless PES 2013 is PES 6 (well, might as well make it WE9: LE) in HD, with all the technological restraints and gameplay restraints that it entails, I don't see how 2013 can be anything but another pathetic attempt at a football game, much like 2012 is. Between those 2 choices, I would rather have PES 6 in HD, at least it's enjoyable and fun. The downside of that is that they can't make the game feel and look like it belongs in this generation, with all the engine shortcomings for animation, hit detection and so forth.

It's a shitty situation. I'm not looking forward to 2013. Or 2014 for that matter. I'll just keep giving my money to EA.
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Agreed, which is why I think PES2013 should be sold as a budget title for £25. It's just filler until the main event on the next generation of consoles. Fans of the series know this, the casual footie gamers have moved on to Fifa. It makes sense to me.

At a budget price PES would still be a day one purchase for me, even if the game is not all I want it to be. At £40 I will wait for a price drop or pass it by completely.
 
For PES2012 they were told us to not expect anything spectacular, only tweaked and improved PES2011, but we got a completely different game, where a lot of things are worse. Feedback from the funs for PES 2012 was very involved, right? So what went wrong?

How to expect something better now, when we listen the same story every year?
 
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maremas_ said:
For PES2012 they were told us to not expect anything spectacular, only tweaked and improved PES2011, but we got a completely different game, where a lot of things are worse. Feedback from the funs for PES 2012 was very involved, right? So what went wrong?

How to expect something better now, when we listen the same story every year?
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Feedback from fans is a very little part of pes development.
90% of choices are made by Seabass and his team. So if they decide to completely change the game they just make it no matter what fans say. This whole feedback argument is just a joke in my opinion.
 
maremas_ said:
For PES2012 they were told us to not expect anything spectacular, only tweaked and improved PES2011, but we got a completely different game, where a lot of things are worse. Feedback from the funs for PES 2012 was very involved, right? So what went wrong?

How to expect something better now, when we listen the same story every year?
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Pes2012 is streets ahead of pes2011 but still lots of improvements needed. As long as the title keeps improving once the new gen console arrives i believe we will have the great title in the making. The games never gonna be perfect. And people will be divided like they are with any game.

A high percentage as you can see from this thread like pes2012 and if that percentage is better for pes2013 then they must be doing something right.
 
Jamezinho said:
Agreed, which is why I think PES2013 should be sold as a budget title for £25. It's just filler until the main event on the next generation of consoles. Fans of the series know this, the casual footie gamers have moved on to Fifa. It makes sense to me.

At a budget price PES would still be a day one purchase for me, even if the game is not all I want it to be. At £40 I will wait for a price drop or pass it by completely.
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Makes sense for PES gamers doesnt make sense for the company Konami as they would lose millions of pounds.

If they produced PES 6 HD though and charged £25 then that could be a winner.
 
romagnoli said:
PES 5 was the better title, so I'd happily take that.
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Which is why I mentioned Liveware Evolution.
In any case, yes, western fan feedback is a very small part of the development process for most Japanese games. With the exception of Gran Turismo 5.
I'm not even sure of how much impact the Japanese fans have.

Just another reason why Japanese games are in the sad situation they are. Developers refuse to change with the times. They still think that people who spend hundreds and hundreds of hours playing their games should have no say in the matter. Apparently Seabass thinks the games are free. :BOP:

He should have been given the boot from 2009 onwards. Bring some new blood in. Not even new blood, I'd be fine with someone who's open-minded and tries out western games.
 
trup2foryou said:
I've been reading these forums with interest this year because like most of you, I'm not that happy with PES this year (or this generation).

I'm made a series of vids (5) that show what my main beefs are.

YouTube - PES 2012 Single Player Issues Part 1

Apologize for the quality of the vids but I think you will have no problems understanding what's happening.
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I couldn't agree more with you there trup2foryou. Maybe you should compile your videos and make only one smaller, but with the most serious issues and send it to KONAMI? Make our voices heard kind of thing.

I haven't played a great deal of PES 2012 because of the same issues you mention, but it was enough to come across quite a collection of f*ck ups. If only I had the patience to record them and edit in a video... but I think I've wasted enough time with this version.
But the element of cheating is definitely there and I've had all sorts of goals scored against me by the CPU... diving headers in the wrong direction that just went out like cannon balls, an average chump dribbling past 4 defenders inside a tiny space, etc...

Like you well said, of course we can adapt to the game and eventually learn how to deal with the AI defensively, and work your way around creating chances. But when I do that, I find myself forced to play in a way I never did in PES before. I just don't feel like I'm playing a footie game anymore and I find myself resorting to stupid plays to grab my goals. To me that's the definition of an Arcadey game... when I score I don't get that rewarding experience

Like you said in the video, I don't want to be forced to double team on the wings all the time, but hell that's the only option the AI leaves you, and sometimes it isn't even enough.
That stupid "contain" system is ridiculous in the way it was implemented.
Also our defenders are totally useless and feels like they're running on slippery ice, any average Joe can dribble past them and turn them inside out, showing pieces of skill that do not necessarily correspond to their stats.
Also, there's a tendency for passes to go right under our defenders' noses, they never react and stick a leg out to intercept... it's just pathetic and broken really.

I'm totally with you, single player is simply broken and unplayable. Master League was a joy for me too, but I'm not even gonna go there in this version. It won't be good for my anger :D
To think that PES 2011 was quite enjoyable and a reasonably good game in this series... and to think of the bloody good PES/Winning Eleven titles KONAMI used to make some 7, 8 years ago, when they didn't have a chance to amend f*ck ups with patches/DLC content...

My copy of PES 2012 is shelved for good. Lets just hope for better days in PES 2013. Damn I would even roll back the years to when we used to dribble on the D-Pad using only simple trickery, good timing and, of course, relying on your player's good stats. Oh well.
 
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