The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

Which PES 2012 version do you prefer?

  • Total voters
    233
  • Poll closed .
Ektor70 said:
Some people here should know john murphy (in person or via twitter).

If they could contact him and tell him about a selected feedback from trustworthy people that played the game for 15 years...i am sure we could provide a lot of positive and pragmatic pieces of advice. we know the game history like the palm of our hands.

The game has been losing 1 million customers each year since pes 2008. Which is exactly the year i which WENB started its non sense unofficial marketing. So that blog actually did not help konami at all. This year konami will lose another million or more...they will hardly make it to 3 millions copies. they sold almost 9 in 2008. I think it is time for a change for them.
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Where are these figures taken from?

Besides which we all know why PES has been losing sales, and it isn't WENB is it? Of course not. It's the game itself when put up against FIFA.

Not to mention FIFA has something like 100 times PES's marketing budget. PES sponsored the Guardian Weekly football podcast for a month or less; EA are plastered all over each and every premier league match, ad break etc etc.
 
Why KONAMI messed up so much. They had proper football knowledge and they proved it with PES3-6.

Why the Hell did they try and change that? PES2008 was failure, next 2 games were slightly better, but still could not touch PES6 mechanics, PES 2011 was worst of them for me. Too many changes, unresponsive players, passing was a joke (AI decided whether the pass reaches your player or goes out of play... Russian roulette anyone?), AI in your team/opponents was dire, etc.

PES 2012 is tad better, but lacks things which made series great in first place. Player and team individuality. They also added rubber band AI or how you call it, cheating script. Why the ****?!

If I have to chose between PES6 and PES2012 which one I chose? PES6. Hands down. Even after all these years, it still gives me pleasure to play, to create goals and amazingly crafted moves.

As of late no-one knows the direction PES is going. Even Seabass is lost.
 
Ektor70 said:
Some people here should know john murphy (in person or via twitter).

If they could contact him and tell him about a selected feedback from trustworthy people that played the game for 15 years...i am sure we could provide a lot of positive and pragmatic pieces of advice. we know the game history like the palm of our hands.

The game has been losing 1 million customers each year since pes 2008. Which is exactly the year i which WENB started its non sense unofficial marketing. So that blog actually did not help konami at all. This year konami will lose another million or more...they will hardly make it to 3 millions copies. they sold almost 9 in 2008. I think it is time for a change for them.
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With these facts in mind it's absolutely incredible that Konami are sticking with the same people to help mould PES 2013. Surely any other business in the world would look at those figures and think it's time to change almost everything about their current philosophy and personnel from the top down?

Why are they going with yes men like Adam and WENB to help shape the future of PES when they need to face up to some cold hard facts to turn the series around?

No one likes to hear criticism but if anyone needs to listen to some right now it's Konami. Before they fuck PES beyond repair.

I dont see the point in listening to people who are saying the game is fine and only needs a few tweaks here and there when the sales and a large number of hardcore PES fans are screaming the opposite.

Is it any wonder we fear for the future of PES when they give people like Adam a BIGGER role to play in the next installment? The guy who gave the out of the box code of PES 2012 a 9 out of fucking 10?
 
info0 said:
Why KONAMI messed up so much. They had proper football knowledge and they proved it with PES3-6.

Why the Hell did they try and change that? PES2008 was failure, next 2 games were slightly better, but still could not touch PES6 mechanics, PES 2011 was worst of them for me. Too many changes, unresponsive players, passing was a joke (AI decided whether the pass reaches your player or goes out of play... Russian roulette anyone?), AI in your team/opponents was dire, etc.

PES 2012 is tad better, but lacks things which made series great in first place. Player and team individuality. They also added rubber band AI or how you call it, cheating script. Why the ****?!

If I have to chose between PES6 and PES2012 which one I chose? PES6. Hands down. Even after all these years, it still gives me pleasure to play, to create goals and amazingly crafted moves.

As of late no-one knows the direction PES is going. Even Seabass is lost.
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You mix three things:

- knowledge

- money

- programming

On Ps2 programming was much easier than next gen and without spend a lot of money. On Ps2 day they created game on this platform a than converted to PC. It was easier for them. When next gen came they first made game on Pc than converted to consoles. They didn't have knowledge working on PC with new technology. It was the main problem for KONAMI. If you look for these three things you will understand everything.

1. They didn't have knowledge woriking o Pc

2. Thet didn't use new technology

3. They didn't spend enough money

The biggest issue what did KONAMI was when Xbox 360 came on market. They waited for PS3 and waste time to create something new from scratch like FIFA 07/08.
 
romagnoli said:
Where are these figures taken from?

Besides which we all know why PES has been losing sales, and it isn't WENB is it? Of course not. It's the game itself when put up against FIFA.

Not to mention FIFA has something like 100 times PES's marketing budget. PES sponsored the Guardian Weekly football podcast for a month or less; EA are plastered all over each and every premier league match, ad break etc etc.
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Totally agree about EA having a bigger marketing budget, but with the football genre being so bizarrely tiny (just two games each year) word of mouth and reputation is everything. I'd never expect PES to outsell FIFA because the marketing budget is so colossal like you say, but this has always been the case. The flashier looking game with licences and marketing will always win out on sales.

I can't speak for those figures quoted of losing a million customers per year, but sales are dropping quite drastically across Europe and that's due to reputation and word of mouth. A vast number of PES players have given up. I used to live in a flat with five of us all owning PES each year. I don't live with them now but keep regular contact, and none of them bother with it any more. That's five sales lost in just one flat. And the reason? It feels dated, stale, buggy, take your pick.
 
romagnoli said:
Where are these figures taken from?

Besides which we all know why PES has been losing sales, and it isn't WENB is it? Of course not. It's the game itself when put up against FIFA.

Not to mention FIFA has something like 100 times PES's marketing budget. PES sponsored the Guardian Weekly football podcast for a month or less; EA are plastered all over each and every premier league match, ad break etc etc.
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figures are taking from vggames chart.

It is a stereotype about EA and Konami ads. Konami had singed up messi, world best player, for years, and now Ronaldo. Konami adboards are all over spanish stadia, including bernabeu and camp nou, the two most income generating clubs in the world and the top team for tv revenues and number of spectators world wide.

Konami has the CL license which is quite an investment.

Let's be honest, the company got lazy and arrogant.
 
The company got cheap. Not enough money given to PES Productions to develop a new engine, develop motion capture, improve audio etc etc. Developers are always at the mercy of the publishers, and they hold the purse strings.
 
Ektor70 said:
Some people here should know john murphy (in person or via twitter).

If they could contact him and tell him about a selected feedback from trustworthy people that played the game for 15 years...i am sure we could provide a lot of positive and pragmatic pieces of advice. we know the game history like the palm of our hands.

The game has been losing 1 million customers each year since pes 2008. Which is exactly the year i which WENB started its non sense unofficial marketing. So that blog actually did not help konami at all. This year konami will lose another million or more...they will hardly make it to 3 millions copies. they sold almost 9 in 2008. I think it is time for a change for them.
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I wouldn't credit them with downfall of PES. They're really not that important or influential in reality. No, Seabass and Konami were quite capable of that themselves. They are the only parties to blame here.
 
Ektor, you're wrong. I've been told the actual marketing budgets for the two titles, so I know the difference is huge, but it should be plainly obvious anyway. You should be able to tell you're wrong just by looking at your own statement. Konami may have had Messi, and now Ronaldo instead, for example, but FIFA have got Rooney, Kaka, Benzema, Messi... different cover stars for each region FFS!

Right, from now on I'm only going to respond to posts worth responding to. Anyone who genuinely thinks WENB are responsible for the downfall of PES does not fall into this category.

---

PES has never been seen as a flagship title by Konami. It's never had anything like the same reverence or budget as Metal Gear Solid, for example. Having to upgrade to the most expensive generation yet with that in mind was never likely to go well.

That said, while sales may well be low compared to FIFA, the amount of money earned is likely to be pretty high this year. The question is whether Konami is ever going to want PES to be the number 1 title again. If they do, they need to give the PES team the moolah to match.
 
who said WENB are responsible? i said "their blog did not help to promote the game?" can you read romagnoli?

The money a company invest in marketing the game ain't the issue anyway. The is no whatsoever direct link between marketing and how much you sell in any industry. Actually some great movie and games flop where due to too much spending on marketing that actually did not help making profit.

The game is not bought by customers for its poor quality. Just look around, people who bought pes for 10 years are now buying fifa. And if you have a game that sold 9 million copies in 2008 you surely have enough money to spend of ads.

if konami makes a better game they will sell more.

I think you are as biased as WENB, you just come here defending the game with no interest in helping it becoming a better game. Are you somehow involved in WENB too? i guess so.
 
I was talking more generally to the people in this thread, rather than just you. Fact is there are a lot of brain numbing posts in here - not just your own, though you certainly deserve a lot of the credit - in amongst a handful of more considered ones that are worth the time.

If people genuinely need to be told that there's a huge difference between the budgets of both companies in all areas - particularly marketing - or that WENB are not to blame for PES's decline in the UK and a few other European countries and therefore don't need to be jettisoned as part of any revolution, or that disagreeing with them about WENB does not mean that somebody actually works for them and doesn't want PES to progress...then it's going to be hard for them to offer anything worthwhile to any conversation, let alone these particular topics. Your comment about marketing is a perfect example of this in action.


Ok, that is actually it for replying to posts that don't warrant the time.
 
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Ektor70 said:
who said WENB are responsible? i said "their blog did not help to promote the game?" can you read romagnoli?

The money a company invest in marketing the game ain't the issue anyway. The is no whatsoever direct link between marketing and how much you sell in any industry. Actually some great movie and games flop where due to too much spending on marketing that actually did not help making profit.

The game is not bought by customers for its poor quality. Just look around, people who bought pes for 10 years are now buying fifa. And if you have a game that sold 9 million copies in 2008 you surely have enough money to spend of ads.

if konami makes a better game they will sell more.

I think you are as biased as WENB, you just come here defending the game with no interest in helping it becoming a better game. Are you somehow involved in WENB too? i guess so.
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To be fair I think he's got you there Romagnoli, you definitely come across as someone who has a vested interest in defending PES no matter what.

Marketing and PR budgets are not the be all and end all of a successful product and you seem intelligent enough to know this is the case so why are you going down that road? Your comment about only replying to posts you think are deemed worthy of a response sounds like someone who has backed themselves into a corner and would rather stick their fingers in their ears than listen to an opinion that differs from their own.

As someone said earlier, Konami are not the "little man". They are a huge multi million dollar company who should not be churning out shite like PES 2012. There is no excuse for it so why try to excuse it? Sure they might never beat EA's marketing or product placement but if they produce a better football game than them the rest will take care of itself.

PES vs FIFA used to be an annual war, now it's an embarrassing first round knock out in favour of FIFA every single year.

You cant tell me that Konami are happy to accept this because EA has a bigger budget then they do.

Football games have surely been a huge earner for Konami since the ISS days but you make it sounds almost insignificant.

What company in their right mind would ignore the worldwide football market? Especially when they only have ONE competitor?
 
WENB is nothing more than a free and rather poor data collection and marketing/PR tool for Murphy. I'm sure/hope WENB has very little influence on the development of PES and that Murphy listens to very little Adam and Co. have to say. At the end of the day I think Murphy feeds very little Adam has to say to the guys who make the game in Japan. After all, the censored and overly positive discussion on that forum can't be taken seriously especially when PES needs as much constructive criticism as it can get right now. Make no mistake, at the end of the day WENB is all about Adam, not PES.
 
Puttz - my comment about replying to posts that are worthy of it is simply because I've got other things to do. For example posting in the EA gamechangers area to tell the FIFA devs where I and others think the game needs improving. I'm not going to get into a tired debate with people who dont know any better about where allegiances lie when right now I'm not particularly playing either game. Or many other games for that matter.

As such I am not going to reply to posts that aren't worthy of it, not because I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and pretending everything's fine. Those who have haven't just fallen off the Xmas tree will know it's because I'm a patronising and arrogant git, particularly when it comes to dopey posts.
 
romagnoli said:
Puttz - my comment about replying to posts that are worthy of it is simply because I've got other things to do. For example posting in the EA gamechangers area to tell the FIFA devs where I and others think the game needs improving. I'm not going to get into a tired debate with people who dont know any better about where allegiances lie when right now I'm not particularly playing either game. Or many other games for that matter.

As such I am not going to reply to posts that aren't worthy of it, not because I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and pretending everything's fine. Those who have haven't just fallen off the Xmas tree will know it's because I'm a patronising and arrogant git, particularly when it comes to dopey posts.
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I have no idea what any of that has to do with PES or this thread to be honest.

Incidentally, love The Mighty Boosh.

:WORSHIP:
 
I am genuinely baffled when people say that there needs to be more than 2 football games out just because football is popular. Logically that is never going to work. Look at the entire gaming industry. Every demographic is dictated by no more than 2 main rivals. Third parties aren't interested in coming in and taking on 2 competitors. The only obvious 3 way fight i can see is between Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft but in truth Nintendo have their own demographic separate to Sony and Microsoft's.

For what it's worth PES needs to buck up its ideas or just leave the market for a while. It's doing no good currently to anybody (us) in the half finished state it is in. There are those that can move to Fifa as an alternative, that's fine, but there are many of us who simply don't like that game and don't think it fits the bill of realistic football that we're looking for. The only time a third party is going to step in, the suggested ideal solution by some, and make a football game is if PES (or Fifa but no way is that happening) is no longer relevant.

That and also Fifa has a huge grip on a massive audience of casual football fans. It's pretty obvious the majority of people who look to buy football games aren't looking for the most realistic experience. That's pretty much why Fifa used to outsell PES in the old days. Any company who comes in is pretty much going to have to accept that they will have a minority of sales if they are looking to make a realistic football game. It's a horrible situation really for us as consumers. I'd much rather PES just buck up their ideas than a new competitor come in. At least we understand them to be a company who accepts the minority share of sales but still look to make a realistic style game over selling out to draw in the bigger casual audience (though perhaps this is debatable).
 
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But if PES is still making a lot of money for Konami in its current state, sepling well in Europe if not the UK, then why should they drop out from their perspective? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep earning a profit, if possible accruing a certain amount of funds for a new engine?

The same goes for these arguments about going for a two year cycle. It makes sense for us, but not for EA/Konami at all. They're better off working concurrently with creating a new engine, via a second team.
 
yeah, i am sure that konami 50 thousand shareholders don't mind having lost a few hundred million dollars on their top product as long as they still making some profit.

at the end of the day it is just a game...not a business industry...
 
Rom, what do you think went wrong in development from when you first tested to the release? Yourself, and the vast majority on here (incl. myself) after the demos were extremely positive over it's potential, more so than any other iteration since PES6. Yet, 3 months post-release and this place is dead, much more so than PES 2011 (which was much less anticipated)

I think the main problem is a lack of direction. Who exactly are Konami targeting?

At the moment it's caught between being a simulation & an arcade experience, achieving neither. It's not fun/accessible enough for the casual audience, and it's sim elements not published or utilised enough for the 'hardcore' audience. It's perception in the mainstream is that of a pick up 'n play kids game, which is far from the reality.

They don't have to take on FIFA, if they have a specific market they can deliver a sufficiently popular game at much less cost then the competition, making it financially viable. Right now they seem to be wanting to attract FIFA's clientele (such as the heavier assisted passing), while still trying to 'satisfy' the older fans.

From reading WENB the other day, Adam seems to be under the impression PES 2012 is selling very well (contradicting it's colossal price depreciation after the release week), justifying Konami's approach. I can't help but feel it's ultimately futile, the core audience that prefers FIFA is unobtainable, as it'll always be prettier/more accessible/more fasionable.
 
Ektor70 said:
yeah, i am sure that konami 50 thousand shareholders don't mind having lost a few hundred million dollars on their top product as long as they still making some profit.

at the end of the day it is just a game...not a business industry...
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Hyperbolic nonsense. Right up there with ''the Japanese don't get it''.

Can't remember what the lads name was, but he tried to tell me in the WENB forums (I see the WENB conspiracy theories, complimented by a dash of blinkered elitism are still alive and well!) that PES' can ONLY be good if the project is moved to Europe (what is it with people thinking that moving a videogames development to more western co-ordinates guarantees success, or at least a better game?) and that the split in priorites between tech and gameplay needs to be 75/25 in tech/physics favour. Absolutely clueless.

Folk always claim that they don't buy any of EA's bs but their ''solutions'' are based entirely on EA bs.

Keep those weird, obsessive, elitist and downright hilarious WENB conspiracy theories coming lads. Yeah, that is what will make PES great again.
 
Agree with the comment about two competitors by the way - and it's very unlikely to change any time soon. Getting a 3rd competitor in now is going to be so hard to do - the size of the dev teams involved and the experience needed to get started, the complexities of the various engines needed to make a half decent game, the licensing needed to even get a look from most potential buyers... The only situation in which I could see another studio taking on football in a meaningful way would be if Konami dropped out, which I can't see happening any time soon.
 
Konami, contrary to some folks alleged expertise, will not be dropping out any time soon. Rom is spot on.

In fact, developments at Konami and by extension other Japanese publishers/developers, mean that Japanese games development is actively looking to re-structure itself so as to meet the demands of this and future generations.

The future of games development will lie more with scalable, middleware solutions. A little look at the comments section under a Eurogamer article relating to Kojima's 'Project Ogre' offers great insight into how little people are aware of this, with folk saying that Kojima takes too long to build a game and his FOX engine will be outdated by the time it arrives. *sigh*

These same folk no doubt believe that Frostbite 2 or Cryengine 3 will be out of date shortly. Do people really think that these engines are built only to realise the ''now'' and are not always undergoing improvements? DICE and Crytek (especially) know their stuff and simply wouldn't invest time and money into something that isn't scalable and future proof to some extent; certainly beyond this current generation of consoles you can be sure of that and FOX Engine is similar and PES' tech will be developed with a similar mindset.
 
curdstar said:
Konami, contrary to some folks alleged expertise, will not be dropping out any time soon. Rom is spot on.

In fact, developments at Konami and by extension other Japanese publishers/developers, mean that Japanese games development is actively looking to re-structure itself so as to meet the demands of this and future generations.

The future of games development will lie more with scalable, middleware solutions. A little look at the comments section under a Eurogamer article relating to Kojima's 'Project Ogre' offers great insight into how little people are aware of this, with folk saying that Kojima takes too long to build a game and his FOX engine will be outdated by the time it arrives. *sigh*

These same folk no doubt believe that Frostbite 2 or Cryengine 3 will be out of date shortly. Do people really think that these engines are built only to realise the ''now'' and are not always undergoing improvements? DICE and Crytek (especially) know their stuff and simply wouldn't invest time and money into something that isn't scalable and future proof to some extent; certainly beyond this current generation of consoles you can be sure of that and FOX Engine is similar and PES' tech will be developed with a similar mindset.
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Do you have some sources? Or this is just your idea?
 
Ameppe said:
Do you have some sources? Or this is just your idea?
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I can't speak of my own sources, but there are signs out there besides what we WENB might know.

PSM3 podcast no.57 : They were talking about middleware solutions and FOX Engine in particular, when the magazines editor and huge PES fan (yes, since pretty much year dot)Dan Dawkins comments : '' I can't say anything. I know something about FOX Engine and it is very exciting''

latest PSM3 issue : segment on the games to watch in 2012 with PES2013 featuring due to what they call ''a nice surprise that could await'' with it being more than just hinted at it being technical progress.

Dan Dawkins of PSM3 is very well informed and trusted by more than a few developers/publishers, including Konami. Trust me on this.

Seabass commenting in Mexico City a short while ago that ''next year will be much different'' You can take what you want from that of course.
 
thanks for adding other sources, i hope you are not misleading and everything points to a pes reboot
 
Ipswich69 said:
WENB is nothing more than a free and rather poor data collection and marketing/PR tool for Murphy. I'm sure/hope WENB has very little influence on the development of PES and that Murphy listens to very little Adam and Co. have to say. At the end of the day I think Murphy feeds very little Adam has to say to the guys who make the game in Japan. After all, the censored and overly positive discussion on that forum can't be taken seriously especially when PES needs as much constructive criticism as it can get right now. Make no mistake, at the end of the day WENB is all about Adam, not PES.
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Would love to see you try and prove this bs...
 
Ameppe said:
thanks for adding other sources, i hope you are not misleading and everything points to a pes reboot
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FFS! How would it be me that is misleading you?

Y'see, this is the problem with some folk - they accuse WENB of having a blindspot but sport massive fucking blindspots of their own, namely the inability to identify where information comes from or what information is actually given.

Happy to offer additional sources but don't go ramping this up to anything other than what it is - early whispers. WENB, PSM3 or bloody Elvis won't be to blame if the game doesn't do exactly what you want it to.
 
The main problem with WENB, seems to me, is the censorship that goes on. Any questioning of the authorities in that website seems to be shut down.

Now unto important things. While PES obviously doesn't have as much money as FIFA, that should not be holding them back. It didn't in the PS2 days. I enjoyed PES 2011 much more than I do 2012. PES in a vacuum is a decent 7 game, but when you compare it to the competitor it goes down. FIFA is now shiny and playable, something was not usual. FIFA 12 has me playing it often. While there are many things that can and should be fixed, I feel that they are closer to achieving a fun simulator. Also, PES was a disappointment. PES 2011 was a good game and we were lead to believe by the hype machine that PES 2012 was going to be great. Konami has to get their shit together, because they set a standard back in the day and have yet to meet it again.
 
romagnoli said:
Where are these figures taken from?

Besides which we all know why PES has been losing sales, and it isn't WENB is it? Of course not. It's the game itself when put up against FIFA.
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WENB has been giving feedback for years on how to make PES better, after each playtest Adam has been giving feedback back to Konami, Now sure we cant blame WENB for everything but they have played a part on how poor the games have turned out however they are not poor for the WENB guys as the review scores have shown over the years so at least it shows Konami are listening to feedback but just not listening to the feedback from the right people.
 
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