The Master League adventures thread

[Chris Davies]

Scoring with them adds another layer... At the keeper, wide, over, you name it. Too much power (height) in 80% of the cases. I simply haven't learned to equate power with height, it's so unintuitive.

I've been playing with shooting on "basic" (i.e. assisted) and I've had one-on-ones in the box that the striker has put straight at the keeper, or wide - and bear in mind that, as you say, I've had to work to get literally one decent chance per game... I've nearly thrown the controller across the room.

In the last game I played, I scored three goals - the most I've scored in one game all season - and they were all manual goals (held down R1 before I shot). So I feel a bit like I'm being cheated. Fair enough, don't let me score wondergoals on assisted - in-fact, I really don't want you to - but I want my striker with 80 for finishing to score the easiest one-on-one he'll ever have in his life, after two hours of solid PES-playing trying to win a #@$%ing game. I want "basic" to mean "if the guy would score in this situation in real life, he'll score". Not "you're on superstar? LOOK OUT, SPECTATORS!"

The trouble is, with my controls set to manual shooting, I can't get close to scoring, and I give up after hours of practicing. Using R1 to shoot manually, I get the little guide-line, which I love (I think it's a brilliant idea) - except, on Superstar, you don't get enough time to press that, see the line and shoot. A defender will just come and deflect your shot away...

 

[Deco]

I usually pick the most local, but also rubbish, Championship team and go from there - with the "real" players, because they'll be as useless as the fake ones, but they're the real players and I'm having to dig them out of their real-life situation. I like that!

But last year, I found the Championship really uninspiring - same stadiums, same types of games over and over. Really spoilt my enjoyment of the game. So in my head, I've just switched manager jobs from Bolton to Hull... And their real-life players are absolutely useless for the job at hand (sorry Hull fans, Superstar difficulty's a bitch) so it makes no difference if they're fake or not!

So my job is either, keep this save going for long enough to build up enough money to buy the key players they need and start to push up the top half of the table...

...or chicken out and accept one of the job offers I've been given for next season (Tottenham, Watford, Brescia, Go Ahead Eagles)!

Chris. . . c'mon. . .. man up and stick with the lads ha ha . .it's all about the challenge and honing your skills.

 

[Deco]

I think the solid defensive AI is by far the best part: I simply have to play well / creatively to generate those shots. A chance created means: well played.

Scoring with them adds another layer... At the keeper, wide, over, you name it. Too much power (height) in 80% of the cases. I simply haven't learned to equate power with height, it's so unintuitive.

James, don't tell me you're still on goalless matches ffs. . .get your act together and start practicing ha ha . .in saying that I'm going up to Superstar next season . .so that should expose me as a charlatan.

 

[Chris Davies]

Chris. . . c'mon. . .. man up and stick with the lads ha ha . .it's all about the challenge and honing your skills.

Says he who isn't on Superstar yet! You don't know the half of it!

I've grown attached to them now that I know who can do certain jobs, and I want to stay - but if I don't get the funds to buy at least one new centre back and a really good winger, I can't do another season of painfully slogging for 0-0s! I'll talk to the board...

 

[Deco]

Says he who isn't on Superstar yet! You don't know the half of it!

I've grown attached to them now that I know who can do certain jobs, and I want to stay - but if I don't get the funds to buy at least one new centre back and a really good winger, I can't do another season of painfully slogging for 0-0s! I'll talk to the board...

Well actually Chris I do know all about superstar. . .I usually play each edition of Pes on superstar and I played this one on superstar already . .but it is a tough game to play thankfully. . . ..I leave the best wine until last. . that's why I started on professional with the default players and am gradually working my way up to superstar, to make the game a challenge and add longevity to it. ..I'm not slagging off people who play superstar. . .I'll be playing it next season as I have stated and will continue to put up videos whether I win or lose. ..you're the very one Chris who loves videos as evidence. . some people talk the talk ..I walk the walk . . I don't mean any offence . . .if other people put up some videos which to me all are very enjoyable we would all get a better idea of how difficult superstar is.

 

[James Beaver]

James, don't tell me you're still on goalless matches ffs. . .get your act together and start practicing ha ha

Olimpo redux, season 2

Settings: superstar, full manual, 20 minutes, speed 0

Report on match: Olimpo - CA Aldosivi

Highlight reel

Spoiler

The drama, the irony.

 

[Deco]

Olimpo redux, season 2

Settings: superstar, full manual, 20 minutes, speed 0

Report on match: Olimpo - CA Aldosivi

Highlight reel

Spoiler

The drama, the irony.

I thought we had a 2-0 win on there James. . hard luck . .nice vid.

 

[Chris Davies]

I don't mean any offence . . .if other people put up some videos which to me all are very enjoyable we would all get a better idea of how difficult superstar is.

I was only joking fella, I very much doubt I'll stick with Superstar beyond this season. Which is a shame because the results, I have to admit, are more realistic - but I just don't think I can take much more of the first-time passing and no-mistakes defending...

Someone's posted an excellent analysis (including videos) in the PES thread of exactly how the CPU defends on Superstar (i.e. you can never move quickly enough to get behind them, because of the catch-up code and the fact that they can double-mark players so easily, so you end up scoring the same goals over and over because you know it's a waste of time trying to get into the box).

When my team spirit gets above 70 (after 20+ games it's still on 60, despite trying to keep the same team and tactics going whenever I can), I'm sure I'll feel differently...

I don't want it to be too easy, but I don't want to feel cheated - and unfortunately for me, at the moment (again probably because of the team spirit), it's a black-and-white choice between one or the other...

Not moaning! Still love the game. In-fact, I really enjoyed it last night...

I had a cup tie against Manchester United - for me, the danger men were Mata and Ibra, so I set a DM (Neustädter, who I bought at the start of the season and who's been my best player) to deal with Mata, and just used "tight marking" (advanced instructions) on Ibra.

After that, I set the defensive line very deep, the passing distance very high, and wow. I had the better of them. The defence wasn't perfect but they fluffed their chances - Martial ended up coming on for Ibra and just couldn't hit the target. 90 minutes up, I was giddy - we were going to take them to penalties, I could feel it.

In the 100th minute, United started playing tiki-taka. They hadn't all game - in-fact, they were largely trying to aim balls at the target man - but we were starting to lose stamina, and they weren't.

A pass was played to the feet of Martial, just inside the box, I tried a slide-tackle with Livermore (you know what's coming now)... He missed the ball by about two inches. Martial went down, penalty.

The new keeper had a chance to make a name for himself - but didn't. He dived the wrong way, 1-0. That was that. So close, yet blah blah...

(The result I can't argue with - but I was very lucky not to concede from three separate occasions where I pressed the clearance button and my defender proceeded to jog straight into Ibra instead, and that's my problem with Superstar, even if it doesn't result in a goal.)

Oh, as for videos - I'm not the greatest player so I always feel a bit weird about uploading videos for any reason other than bug-reporting! Especially when my games are mostly 0-0s...

 

[Rayven_king]

question guys, have any of the major teams in your saves changed formations for better or worse, Barca seem to have ditched the 4-3-3 to three at the back and I've been pressed to hell and back (enjoyed every minute of it) I replayed it about three times because I was having so much fun

 

[Chris Davies]

question guys, have any of the major teams in your saves changed formations for better or worse

Have they changed manager? In a previous save I was messing around with with friends, Man Utd changed their manager and started playing a standard 4-4-2. Didn't really suit them but I was amazed to see it, I was relieved to see that managers switch jobs and change a team's formation (I just wish they had attributes like the players do, so that you had managers who bought/played younger players etc...)!

 

[Deco]

I was only joking fella, I very much doubt I'll stick with Superstar beyond this season. Which is a shame because the results, I have to admit, are more realistic - but I just don't think I can take much more of the first-time passing and no-mistakes defending...

Someone's posted an excellent analysis (including videos) in the PES thread of exactly how the CPU defends on Superstar (i.e. you can never move quickly enough to get behind them, because of the catch-up code and the fact that they can double-mark players so easily, so you end up scoring the same goals over and over because you know it's a waste of time trying to get into the box).

When my team spirit gets above 70 (after 20+ games it's still on 60, despite trying to keep the same team and tactics going whenever I can), I'm sure I'll feel differently...

I don't want it to be too easy, but I don't want to feel cheated - and unfortunately for me, at the moment (again probably because of the team spirit), it's a black-and-white choice between one or the other...

Not moaning! Still love the game. In-fact, I really enjoyed it last night...

I had a cup tie against Manchester United - for me, the danger men were Mata and Ibra, so I set a DM (Neustädter, who I bought at the start of the season and who's been my best player) to deal with Mata, and just used "tight marking" (advanced instructions) on Ibra.

After that, I set the defensive line very deep, the passing distance very high, and wow. I had the better of them. The defence wasn't perfect but they fluffed their chances - Martial ended up coming on for Ibra and just couldn't hit the target. 90 minutes up, I was giddy - we were going to take them to penalties, I could feel it.

In the 100th minute, United started playing tiki-taka. They hadn't all game - in-fact, they were largely trying to aim balls at the target man - but we were starting to lose stamina, and they weren't.

A pass was played to the feet of Martial, just inside the box, I tried a slide-tackle with Livermore (you know what's coming now)... He missed the ball by about two inches. Martial went down, penalty.

The new keeper had a chance to make a name for himself - but didn't. He dived the wrong way, 1-0. That was that. So close, yet blah blah...

(The result I can't argue with - but I was very lucky not to concede from three separate occasions where I pressed the clearance button and my defender proceeded to jog straight into Ibra instead, and that's my problem with Superstar, even if it doesn't result in a goal.)

Oh, as for videos - I'm not the greatest player so I always feel a bit weird about uploading videos for any reason other than bug-reporting! Especially when my games are mostly 0-0s...

I watched that analysis by that chap about superstar .. . ..sounded like a great game v Utd. .. I might use a couple of your tips about defending .. .most of us are average players Chris so I wouldn't worry about videos although I do realise you mostly report on bugs lol.

 

[Rayven_king]

Have they changed manager? In a previous save I was messing around with with friends, Man Utd changed their manager and started playing a standard 4-4-2. Didn't really suit them but I was amazed to see it, I was relieved to see that managers switch jobs and change a team's formation (I just wish they had attributes like the players do, so that you had managers who bought/played younger players etc...)!

I'll need to check when I get home if they've sacked their manager, theres so much they could do with manager attributes like man management(how often will he rotate players), transfers, game management (some teams like change their tempo when they score, switch to a defensive shape)...

 

[James Beaver]

[Someone's posted an excellent analysis (including videos) in the PES thread of exactly] how the CPU defends on Superstar (i.e. you can never move quickly enough to get behind them, because of the catch-up code and the fact that they can double-mark players so easily, so you end up scoring the same goals over and over because you know it's a waste of time trying to get into the box).

I don't think this is true.

I don't even think the catchup bug exists to the degree advertised, as long as double R1 is used correctly.

 

[Chris Davies]

I don't even think the catchup bug exists to the degree advertised, as long as double R1 is used correctly.

I sort of agree with you there - my wingers aren't the fastest, and I get plenty of crosses in if I get the advanced tactics right.

But in my experience, the crosses are usually headed away despite having three strikers who are pretty much built to be target-men, and trying to get into the box is a no-go, even with a decent dribbler against a poor defence - I see defenders buzzing around from one player to another far too easily.

50/50 balls are always the AI's on Superstar, always - and their defensive execution is always perfect, they will deflect away anything they can get to if your button input is delayed (which it is when I'm using my worst players - so I get why it is, but, I wish they could convey "this guy's rubbish" in a different way than just making the game frustrating).

I average about 0.4 goals a game, and in the one game where I've scored 3 goals, they were all manual shots from range that I wouldn't have been "allowed" had I not used manual shooting, or had I tried to get inside the box first.

I wasn't experiencing this stuff on Top Player, but it was too easy. Admittedly, I've not got the team spirit above 60 all season, so I'm sure all of this will go away once they gel (though I'm not seeing that number go up no matter what I do)...

I just wish the programmers wouldn't go down the route of delaying your inputs etc. to convey a player's ability or make the game more difficult. But it's how they've always done it and always will do it - and it's certainly toned down in this regard compared to last year (this is the first PES I've loved in a long time).

 

[James Beaver]

But in my experience, the crosses are usually headed away despite having three strikers who are pretty much built to be target-men, and trying to get into the box is a no-go, even with a decent dribbler against a poor defence...

Agree about dribbling into the box, but I am a lousy dribbler.

Headers, on the other hand... This from a few minutes back:

 

[Deco]

Ok I'm going to try a new Master League and try and keep it real .. . no fantasy players although it's hard to know which are real and which aren't. ... . so start with the clubs real players. . .bumping it up to Superstar with manual and 20 mins -1 speed.
So the only differences between this and League mode will be transfers and development more or less.

 

[Chris Davies]

I had time to play a few games last night, and my first game against Sunderland on Superstar was pretty ridiculous. What I find bizarre is that if I play Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea etc. on Superstar I feel like it's fair, but Sunderland - I'd go as far as to say over 50% of their passes were first-time passes that were perfectly hit (what I always refer to as "psychic passing"). They had 91% pass accuracy at the end of the game - compared to United's 80% in the game before...

Anyway, they scored a goal from my defender not reacting to my button-press and won 1-0 (again, this could be down to team spirit, but if it is, it's a rubbish way to do it IMO), and I turned it off in anger - the first time I've done that with PES 2017.

I decided to try the same game again on Top Player before I went to bed, and... They beat me 2-0!

But this is the thing - there was no first-time psychic-passing, they were hitting long balls when I'd expect them to (so they had a bit more team individuality, and that individuality helped them score more goals), but also - the biggie for me (on basic shooting)...

Where every header I had against United and Sunderland on Superstar went wide (between 5-8) and not being able to figure out why (especially against Sunderland), suddenly half of my headers hit the target, and the same with shots. It was truly as if a curse had been lifted and suddenly my £10m strikers could actually hit the f@$#ing target (they're Premier League strikers, what I was seeing on Superstar wasn't realistic IMO)...

For me, Top Player is like playing against a football team, whereas Superstar is like playing against a 12-year-old FIFA player - the latter is 100% more challenging, but it's not how football works.

I remember Adam saying something about them "making sure" Superstar was difficult this year due to the hardcore guys saying "make it harder", but I think a lot of us seem to think "if I don't play it on the hardest difficulty, I'm not getting the most out of the game". But what if that hardest difficulty gives the AI an unfair advantage and lets them read the game to a beyond-human degree, and lets their players turn on a dime or hit perfect passes through their own bodies?

I want the most difficult challenge, not to beat a cheat, that's not fun to me.

I think from now on, I'll play the top 6 league teams on Superstar, maybe European games too (if I ever get that far), but everything else on Top Player. At least, until the team spirit changes...

 

[Deco]

I had time to play a few games last night, and my first game against Sunderland on Superstar was pretty ridiculous. What I find bizarre is that if I play Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea etc. on Superstar I feel like it's fair, but Sunderland - I'd go as far as to say over 50% of their passes were first-time passes that were perfectly hit (what I always refer to as "psychic passing"). They had 91% pass accuracy at the end of the game - compared to United's 80% in the game before...

Anyway, they scored a goal from my defender not reacting to my button-press and won 1-0 (again, this could be down to team spirit, but if it is, it's a rubbish way to do it IMO), and I turned it off in anger - the first time I've done that with PES 2017.

I decided to try the same game again on Top Player before I went to bed, and... They beat me 2-0!

But this is the thing - there was no first-time psychic-passing, they were hitting long balls when I'd expect them to (so they had a bit more team individuality, and that individuality helped them score more goals), but also - the biggie for me (on basic shooting)...

Where every header I had against United and Sunderland on Superstar went wide (between 5-8) and not being able to figure out why (especially against Sunderland), suddenly half of my headers hit the target, and the same with shots. It was truly as if a curse had been lifted and suddenly my £10m strikers could actually hit the f@$#ing target (they're Premier League strikers, what I was seeing on Superstar wasn't realistic IMO)...

For me, Top Player is like playing against a football team, whereas Superstar is like playing against a 12-year-old FIFA player - the latter is 100% more challenging, but it's not how football works.

I remember Adam saying something about them "making sure" Superstar was difficult this year due to the hardcore guys saying "make it harder", but I think a lot of us seem to think "if I don't play it on the hardest difficulty, I'm not getting the most out of the game". But what if that hardest difficulty gives the AI an unfair advantage and lets them read the game to a beyond-human degree, and lets their players turn on a dime or hit perfect passes through their own bodies?

I want the most difficult challenge, not to beat a cheat, that's not fun to me.

I think from now on, I'll play the top 6 league teams on Superstar, maybe European games too (if I ever get that far), but everything else on Top Player. At least, until the team spirit changes...

Ah lads I'm switching to Superstar and now I'm being told Top Player is better? Anyway started an Ml with Fiorentina on Superstar . .turned it off as I had 8 clear chances in 5 mins and Sampdoria my opponents couldn't get out of their half . . ...Started again with Perugia and enjoyed it. .. their real team is weaker than the defaults in ML ha ha . .my TS is 21 after adjusting my tactics . .had good game v Ascoli and got beaten 2-0 they had 23 chances to my 8. . .the thing I noticed in those two games is that the shots I took went straight to the keeper. .every shot every header straight to him. . .I'm gonna stick with it though .. .good challenge.

 

[Chris Davies]

the thing I noticed in those two games is that the shots I took went straight to the keeper. .every shot every header straight to him. . .I'm gonna stick with it though .. .good challenge.

Yeah, glad to see it's not just me that noticed that! With a team spirit of 20-something you're a very brave man to play Superstar, keep us posted!

Once I get Hull's team spirit up to 70 or so I'm sure it'll be great (or even too easy, like you experienced with Fiorentina), but until then, it just cripples my players too much.

Question: How do you get the team spirit up? I've been playing the same formation most games with differing advanced tactics, and the same players when I can (with the occasional youth player thrown in), but it's not budging... Do I need to win for it to go up (in which case, I'm stuffed)?

 

[James Beaver]

@Chris Davies

TS will go up gradually, no need to win. I am not sure of all the factors affecting it. I try keep the same guys playing as much as possible, also without switching positions. Certain player roles probably have an influence.

 

[Deco]

TS goes up quicker when you are winning but can drop if you lose. . ... . so try winning.

 

[Inoit]

Also, how far your individual players match up to your team style.

If you have a lot of players with one bar for Counter Attack, for example, but try to play Possession, it may not work out.

Just my opinion: have no solid evidence, apart from trying to ensure a good all round fit and my TS on the 90s now in my third season.

I find Youth Teamers, and to lesser extent scouted players, don't dent TS too much. Unless you change half your side.

 

[Deco]

Ok I tried a new ML with Perugia on Superstar ... I'm not willing to put in weeks of building and suffering heavy defeats as they are weaker than the defaults . . half the team is under 60 rating and I've very little transfer money. . .. I've already done this twice with other teams in Ml. .. I'm about to start with Udinese with their real team players and see how that goes. . . .I agree with Chris about Superstar, he has it spot on .. . .it is like playing a machine.. . .an unemotional precise A.I. . . with Top Player there's a human feel to the game and is more adaptive. . .but Superstar goes over the top. . . I find the goals are identical. .short passing in the box to lay on a close tap in header or a through pass down the center or right wing to a player who cuts in past your slower defenders to slot home . .. Merciless A.I defense who when you actually open them up with a well worked move will either block your shot or it goes straight to the keeper. It's not very enjoyable . .if they had it tweaked to be harder than Top Player with a lesser robotic feel it would have been so much better. Udinese should be able to hold their own . . if they don't it's down to myself .. .hope to post videos soon.

 

[James Beaver]

Superstar goes over the top. . . I find the goals are identical. .short passing in the box to lay on a close tap in header or a through pass down the center or right wing to a player who cuts in past your slower defenders to slot home . .. Merciless A.I defense who when you actually open them up with a well worked move will either block your shot or it goes straight to the keeper.

I both agree and disagree. They will do all of those things, both in offense and defense, if they can. Sort of... if you allow them to.

Get the TS up, and think of ways to circumvent those issues: this is partially a problem-solving game. Then you will see more variety.

 

[Deco]

I both agree and disagree. They will do all of those things, both in offense and defense, if they can. Sort of... if you allow them to.

Get the TS up, and think of ways to circumvent those issues: this is partially a problem-solving game. Then you will see more variety.

Ok I had one game this morning as Udinese away to Juventus. . .I allowed myself to buy one top striker as normally with other ML's I wouldn't have the cash . .so I bought Gabriel .. .it was a very scrappy close encounter but strangely enjoyable .. .Gabriel robbed a defender and duly slotted home on his debut for a 0-1 lead which we held onto until late in the game. . .actually Gabriel missed a sitter to make it 0-2 in the second half. . Juventus kept pressing and scored an equaliser from Mandzukic 1-1 .. . .I changed it around a bit and brought on two subs and should have scored from a free kick . . .Chiellini got sent off for a second yellow and we started to find gaps but their defending was outstanding . . it ended 1-1 but felt we should have won. ..Udinese seem to favour all out defending and conservative . . .I tried to change it and my TS dropped 20 points so that's a no no.

I can see myself enjoying this . . it's the first time that I've tried ML with real players instead of defaults and what a difference it makes. . have to sort out a few things and then it's down to skill to win.

 

[Daisuk]

I can see myself enjoying this . . it's the first time that I've tried ML with real players instead of defaults and what a difference it makes. . have to sort out a few things and then it's down to skill to win.

Just wait until you're a few matches in and cheat mode is activated, you won't be able to string two passes together.

 

[Deco]

Just wait until you're a few matches in and cheat mode is activated, you won't be able to string two passes together.

Lol. .. yeh you're probably right . . .I'm well used to those scenarios.

 

[Deco]

Ok haven't won a match yet which is normal for the start of a new ML.

Juve 1-1 Udinese
Udinese 3-3 Torino
Sampdoria 1-0 Udinese
Udinese 0-1 Pescara
Udinese 1-2 Napoli

All very close games which is encouraging .. .nobody has destroyed me yet. . .two things I noticed on Superstar . . a lot less fouls and a lot easier to shoot from outside the box.

 

[Chris Davies]

All very close games which is encouraging .. .nobody has destroyed me yet. . .two things I noticed on Superstar . . a lot less fouls and a lot easier to shoot from outside the box.

For me, it's wrong that it forces that same style on every team on Superstar (packing the box and forcing you to shoot from outside the box - which is useless on basic shooting by the way).

You see less team individuality as far as I'm concerned. Really glad I'm not too stubborn to have dropped down a difficulty - especially when it "unlocked" Sunderland so that they could play longer passes and less tiki-taka, and then beat me more comprehensively...

The weird thing is, though, that I found playing United on Superstar was no big deal - they didn't seem to play any differently than they should. It only seems to be the worse teams that play completely differently (like a 12-year-old spamming buttons)...

But it's all team-spirit-related, I'm sure it's great when you get it above 70!

 

[Deco]

For me, it's wrong that it forces that same style on every team on Superstar (packing the box and forcing you to shoot from outside the box - which is useless on basic shooting by the way).

You see less team individuality as far as I'm concerned. Really glad I'm not too stubborn to have dropped down a difficulty - especially when it "unlocked" Sunderland so that they could play longer passes and less tiki-taka, and then beat me more comprehensively...

The weird thing is, though, that I found playing United on Superstar was no big deal - they didn't seem to play any differently than they should. It only seems to be the worse teams that play completely differently (like a 12-year-old spamming buttons)...

But it's all team-spirit-related, I'm sure it's great when you get it above 70!

Yeh Superstar should have been programmed much better than it is. . ..it's very hard to get a passing game going. . all very stop start . .bump, fall .. loose ball etc . ..it seems to encourage long range shooting for some reason and yet the A.I wants to walk it into the net. . ah sure I still have my Sampdoria Top Player save to fall back on.