The England Topic

I bet Bent and Defore want to beat the living shit out of Theo Wilcock right about now.
 
PLF and gedtillo

Just simply concerning Bent.

Andy Johnson scored more in his season in the Prem than Bent has this year.
Johnson is not international class at all.
I thought that as Johnson banged in his 20th goal that season.

I think the same thing with Darren Bent.
I have seen enough of him to know he too is not international class.
For that reason he just shouldn't be in the squad.

Walcott has the ability to have an amazing World Cup and be an absolute star.
Bent, Beattie, Harewood, Johnson just do not and would not.

Who is more likely to be the star of WC2006? Darren Bent or Theo Walcott?
Bent just does not have it in him, despites his goals.

I have seen enough of Walcott to see he is a better player.

This is my point about deserving to go.
Fuck that, to me you pick the best players and what is best for England.

I never ever go on stats. Thats bullshit. (though I agree you sometimes cannot ignore goals- this case I do)

It's amazing how goals influence people's opinions on players.

Lampard is a perfect example.
If he did not score as many goals, he would not get half the praise he does.
Not saying I have anything against Lampard as he is one of the very best at what he does, which is being a goalscoring midfielder.
But as a player, he is just not near World Class.

I just look at players and let my own feeling and judgement decide.

Rather than 'Darren Bent has scored 20 goals, he must be taken'.
 
Just to clear up because it does sound a little strange and contradictive :lol:

My definition when I said 'deserve to go is bullshit'.
I mean just because he should be 'given his chance' or that it is 'unfair if he doesn't' just does not hold no weight with me.

Obviously if you deserve to go, it is because you are good enough.
Thats what I mean.

That is my definition.
 
I love england as much as any other but i could never see us winning this anyway with sven at helm.
apart from his very dodgy wc selection he will continue to play Beckham who i cannot remember playing well for england since the greece game 4 years ago. where as everytime i have seen wright phillips he has played a blinder for his country and is not even going.
a few more injuries and we will have no one to play upfront. never know even a few of my clubs strikers now have hope he he derbys tommy smith.

what a joke sven . makes me wonder if he will play joe cole or play that no hoper hargreaves who dosnt know the meaning of a forward pass

sorry had to get that of my chest
 
gawd....I don't see where the problem is. Our two best forwards are likely not to make it. Whether anyone wants to accept it or not, we have no otber players which will please everyone.

If you want experience, Heskey is fully fit if you want him. Considering the pathetic booing of Crouch, I doubt anyone will be happy with him. I thought Bent looked alright, but I got the feeling very few felt the same. I was a bit dissappointed that Defoe didn't go - but I'm sure he'll be the first choice if Rooney/Owen don't make it.

I praise Sven for taking the risk. If this is a sign of things to come from Sven, then I'm looking forward to this year :). Without Rooney, he can experiment - maybe he would risk dropping Beckham for Lennon?

We've got as much of a chance as anyone this year - even when we had Rooney. Now that he is not here, the pressure has been taken off us and the opposition won't regard us as highly - which along with Kamakaze Sven, can only be a good thing ;)
 
steevio_uk said:
Who's the woman mate?

(I have to stop asking that question!!)

But it's you lot with the avatars!!;)
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very peachy indeed!!

-

Surely the fact that Eriksson hasnt actually seen the player in the flesh, in competitive games is a little worrying to say the least, tipping the scales from "brave" to "reckless" i'd of thought.

Reminds me of Brian Little buying Milosevic (or was it Balaban) by virtue of a video compilation many moons ago

db
 
denirobob said:
very peachy indeed!!

-

Surely the fact that Eriksson hasnt actually seen the player in the flesh, in competitive games is a little worrying to say the least, tipping the scales from "brave" to "reckless" i'd of thought.

Reminds me of Brian Little buying Milosevic (or was it Balaban) by virtue of a video compilation many moons ago

db
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:D

Many managers buy players on the strength of scouting reports.

In this case I can only imagine he has taken the trusted advice of the England U19/U17 teams manager, his own souts and that of Pat Rice and Arsene Wenger.

Is a risk taking a complete unknown.
But a bigger risk is taking a run of the mill striker like Bent or Johnson.

(Who wants to bet with me that Darren Bent will be playing for someone like Wolves in 3 years??)
 
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steevio_uk said:
Yes of course I have mate.

Jog along.
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You do realise that music videos dont show the weaknesses of a player, right? I mean, its possible to make a music video of Heskey that would make him look like the greatest striker of all time.
Judging someone from a video like that is dumb.
 
What I just don't get is how can anyone have an opinion about a player being world class when this player is still to make his debut at Premier League level, don't even get me started on England caps, junior squad scoring, European tournaments and the likes.

You claim that you have seen Walcott play... but against who? What games? What was his team, and what was the opponent? How can a national team manager base his pickings on performances that do not exist? How can Sven know if Walcott is going to do well or not if Theo simply has not played a single high-level game in his entire life?

There's no one there that can say that Theo Walcott's performance at a top level game (as the ones in Premier League) is good or not. Thus I am extremely surprised that any one can actually say he is a good player for a World Cup (arguably the highest profile competition there is) when he is still to play a game against (or with) a proper team.

Any knowledge anybody might have about Walcott's football level is based on his Southampton appearances, England U-19 couple of games... and media hype. How does Theo perform under pressure? Will he be able to cope with a 70,000 people stadium yelling at him in case he is to shoot in a PK round? Or is he just brought there to amuse himself? If this latter is the case, it is very unfair to let down the top English scorer of the Premiership just to let some kid have a german holiday and "smell the competition"... while heating the bench.

1- If Theo is there to play, there's reasonable doubt about the fact that he has done anything worthy of that... apart for being the media sensation of the winter.

2- If Theo is there just to learn, and Sven's intentions are to keep him on the bench, it is plain stupid to leave out the hottest English striker (who was a very good scorer last season too), especially with Owen @ 70% and Rooney (hopefully) @ 50% form.
 
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RuneEdge said:
You do realise that music videos dont show the weaknesses of a player, right? I mean, its possible to make a music video of Heskey that would make him look like the greatest striker of all time.
Judging someone from a video like that is dumb.
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And you do realise the concept of sarcasm?

Dear oh dear.
 
well said. walcott has played reserve games and games for a poor southampton side . and now has a world cup chance joke joke joke..
my god if he wanted a surprise player why not take Dean Ashton. a great player with strenth and good finishing and has played top level orem action but not walcott i can think of maybe 10+ strikers before him if i would have ever thought of him

BRING ON Mclaren gos help us
 
Gedtillo said:
What I just don't get is how can anyone have an opinion about a player being world class when this player is still to make his debut at Premier League level, don't even get me started on England caps, junior squad scoring, European tournaments and the likes.

You claim that you have seen Walcott play... but against who? What games? What was his team, and what was the opponent? How can a national team manager base his pickings on performances that do not exist? How can Sven know if Walcott is going to do well or not if Theo simply has not played a single high-level game in his entire life?

There's no one there that can say that Theo Walcott's performance at a top level game (as the ones in Premier League) is good or not. Thus I am extremely surprised that any one can actually say he is a good player for a World Cup (arguably the highest profile competition there is) when he is still to play a game against (or with) a proper team.

Any knowledge anybody might have about Walcott's football level is based on his Southampton appearances, England U-19 couple of games... and media hype. How does Theo perform under pressure? Will he be able to cope with a 70,000 people stadium yelling at him in case he is to shoot in a PK round? Or is he just brought there to amuse himself? If this latter is the case, it is very unfair to let down the top English scorer of the Premiership just to let some kid have a german holiday and "smell the competition"... while heating the bench.

1- If Theo is there to play, there's reasonable doubt about the fact that he has done anything worthy for that... apart for being the media sensation of the winter.

2- If Theo is there just to learn, and Sven's intentions are to keep him on the bench, it is plain stupid to leave out the hottest English striker (who was a very good scorer last season too), especially with Owen @ 70% and Rooney (hopefully) @ 50% form.
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Can't argue with most of that mate.
Just a couple of things:

Firstly, I don't think Walcott is World Class (just in case you was making that assumption)

I know a lot is to do with potential, but Wenger did not spend £12m on him if he didn't know how good he is.

I base ALL my opinions on nothing other than what I see with my own eyes.
On TV or in person.

I have seen Walcott play twice for Arsenal reserves as well as for Southampton and England, amongst some pretty decent players if I recall correctly and just was absolutely class.

Sometimes you know how good a player is. I have seen players play for 20 games and then seen someone play for 2 games and seen the player playing 2 games is better.

This case I know Walcott is a fucking amazing player. Premier league appearances do not need to tell me this, nor Arsene Wenger, nor Sven.

And I know he is certainly better than Darren Bent.

For that reason he goes ahead of Bent.
Bent's goals do not put him ahead for me.

(Hence my previously poorly put quote of 'deserving' to go)
 
Madangie10 said:
well said. walcott has played reserve games and games for a poor southampton side . and now has a world cup chance joke joke joke..
my god if he wanted a surprise player why not take Dean Ashton. a great player with strenth and good finishing and has played top level orem action but not walcott i can think of maybe 10+ strikers before him if i would have ever thought of him

BRING ON Mclaren gos help us
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Ashton would be a good shout simply because he is a replacement for Crouch in that target man role.

Not that he has been playing well for West Ham, he has looked unfit and in my opinion (even without his current injury) shouldn't be starting games.
Zamora should.

But stating that I probably contradict myself by bringing up Ashton's form!!:lol:

Seriously though at domestic level Ashton has not done anything to warrant a place in the England team, but he is the next best target man we have after Crouch.

So he goes if Sven wanted that long ball/big striker as a plan B.
 
were not denying that he is a great player but is he ready for such a big step up from arsenal reserves to world cup status with no real top flight experience not so sure.
i would have choose ashton as a surprise if owen and rooney were fully fit which i cannot see .
 
steevio_uk said:
Can't argue with most of that mate.
Just a couple of things:

Firstly, I don't think Walcott is World Class (just in case you was making that assumption)

I know a lot is to do with potential, but Wenger did not spend £12m on him if he didn't know how good he is.

I base ALL my opinions on nothing other than what I see with my own eyes.
On TV or in person.

I have seen Walcott play twice for Arsenal reserves as well as for Southampton and England, amongst some pretty decent players if I recall correctly and just was absolutely class.

Sometimes you know how good a player is. I have seen players play for 20 games and then seen someone play for 2 games and seen the player playing 2 games is better.

This case I know Walcott is a fucking amazing player. Premier league appearances do not need to tell me this, nor Arsene Wenger, nor Sven.

And I know he is certainly better than Darren Bent.

For that reason he goes ahead of Bent.
Bent's goals do not put him ahead for me.

(Hence my previously poorly put quote of 'deserving' to go)
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:lol: seriously man you need to get off his cock, i dont think Theo will acknowoledge you for giving him this much praise for doing nothing. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that Theo should be going ahead of either Bent or Defoe. I personally think its disgusting. Its like Rossi getting picked for the Italy National team ahead of Luca Toni, just cuz Rossi has done a bit in the reserves and Sir Alex Ferguson coming out and praising him although Toni is top scorer. To call somone who done well in the championship for southampton and had a few good games in the reserves for Arsenal a 'fucking amazing player' is nothing short of laughable and shows your fickle nature. If he was so great and 'fucking amazing', why hasnt he started for Arsenal this year?
 
Madangie10 said:
were not denying that he is a great player but is he ready for such a big step up from arsenal reserves to world cup status with no real top flight experience not so sure.
i would have choose ashton as a surprise if owen and rooney were fully fit which i cannot see .
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Who knows?

But we all hope so!!!

I would rather take the risk rather than go with any other 'ok' striker.

(If Walcott has a stinking tournament, I will not show my face for weeks after all this :lol: )
 
OK. If the World Cup was a reserve or second division tournament, I'd say "go on, pick the kid, he's extremely talented and may well be the surprise".

But the fact is that during a World Cup you need strikers that can score. You don't need amazing super circus players, you need somebody that has proven you than can regularly score and knows how to be in the right place at the right moment. The only way of knowing that is... watching a player score.

Remember Italia '90? Schillaci went to the World Cup not because he was a "fucking amazing player", but because he could score. And he did. Darren Bent should be at the World Cup because he is a safer bet than Walcott in order to score goals... which is what England needs right now.

If this was a "who can seem to be a better player after a couple of reserve games" contest, I'd say pick Theo. But as this is the most important football competition in the world, one that happens only once every 4 years, I'd say pick the highest scorer and let's see what happens.

If England is unlucky towards the goal as France was in 2002 Sven will have a harsh return.
 
Alucard said:
:lol: seriously man you need to get off his cock, i dont think Theo will acknowoledge you for giving him this much praise for doing nothing. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that Theo should be going ahead of either Bent or Defoe. I personally think its disgusting. Its like Rossi getting picked for the Italy National team ahead of Luca Toni, just cuz Rossi has done a bit in the reserves and Sir Alex Ferguson coming out and praising him although Toni is top scorer. To call somone who done well in the championship for southampton and had a few good games in the reserves for Arsenal a 'fucking amazing player' is nothing short of laughable and shows your fickle nature. If he was so great and 'fucking amazing', why hasnt he started for Arsenal this year?
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I do not appreciate the insults mate.
I do not mind criticism at all.

To say I was fickle, you would have to see a history of me changing my opinions, no?

Did I say Walcott should go ahead of Defoe? No.
Is Rossi better than Toni? No.
Is Walcott better than Bent? Yes.

You can see if someone is a great player.
I say he is a great player.
I never said he has played great and that is why he should be in the squad.

To play a domestic league run in is a world apart from playing in a world cup.

It takes consistency and a settled team.

Arsenal did not need Walcott.

But he could and I expect if given the chance will do a great job for England in the world cup.

Unlike Bent who in my opinion offers nothing at international level.
 
Gedtillo said:
OK. If the World Cup was a reserve or second division tournament, I'd say "go on, pick the kid, he's extremely talented and may well be the surprise".

But the fact is that during a World Cup you need strikers that can score. You don't need amazing super circus players, you need somebody that has proven you than can regularly score and knows how to be in the right place at the right moment. The only way of knowing that is... watching a player score.

Remember Italia '90? Schillaci went to the World Cup not because he was a "fucking amazing player", but because he could score. And he did. Darren Bent should be at the World Cup because he is a safer bet than Walcott in order to score goals... which is what England needs right now.

If this was a "who can seem to be a better player after a couple of reserve games" contest, I'd say pick Theo. But as this is the most important football competition in the world, one that happens only once every 4 years, I'd say pick the highest scorer and let's see what happens.

If England is unlucky towards the goal as France was in 2002 Sven will have a harsh return.
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I agree with what you are saying. You have some great points.

In regards to Walcott, I do not think it is his goalscoring ability that Sven would be looking for.
It is his potential ability to scare the shit out of top class defenders (just like Lennon can) and make things happen.
(Also it is not that to me he 'seems' to be a better player. I think he is a better player.

Bent, although being fast, just does not have anything about his game other than scoring the goals he has.

If Rooney doesn't go I expect our Striking options to be:

Owen, Crouch, Defoe, Walcott and J. Cole.

That gives me a lot more promise and hope than Darren bloody Bent.
 
Walcott won't have a stinking tournament. It is very likely that he won't have a tournament at all, he'll stay there, watching the others play.

The only scenario I can see Walcott playing is a Rooney-and-Owen-less England desperately needing a goal within the last 20 minutes of the Sweden/England game. And that pressure wouldn't even be fair to the kid.

That Rossi comparison is excellent. Would you leave Luca Toni out for Rossi? Would you leave David Villa out for Soldado? You just can't know a player until you see him play a high-level game. Everything else is just pure speculation.

I still can remember lots of "new Maradona"s having been swept by the wind after a couple of disappointing seasons.
 
steevio_uk said:
I do not appreciate the insults mate.
I do not mind criticism at all.

To say I was fickle, you would have to see a history of me changing my opinions, no?

Did I say Walcott should go ahead of Defoe? No.
Is Rossi better than Toni? No.
Is Walcott better than Bent? Yes.

You can see if someone is a great player.
I say he is a great player.
I never said he has played great and that is why he should be in the squad.

To play a domestic league run in is a world apart from playing in a world cup.

It takes consistency and a settled team.

Arsenal did not need Walcott.

But he could and I expect if given the chance will do a great job for England in the world cup.

Unlike Bent who in my opinion offers nothing at international level.
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Well that logic is stupid. So just cuz you think and sense he is a great player, that jutifies him being in the squad? As i said if he is so great, why hasnt he started for Arsenal? Bent offers goals might i add. He has only been given one chance up front for england and didnt do too badly. I was only using Rossi as example to show how ridiculous it would be if he would have been chosen ahead of Luca Toni merely for the fact he had some good games in the reserves against teams with players noone can remember or care about.
 
steevio_uk said:
PLF and gedtillo

Just simply concerning Bent.

Andy Johnson scored more in his season in the Prem than Bent has this year.
Johnson is not international class at all.
I thought that as Johnson banged in his 20th goal that season.

I think the same thing with Darren Bent.
I have seen enough of him to know he too is not international class.
For that reason he just shouldn't be in the squad.

Walcott has the ability to have an amazing World Cup and be an absolute star.
Bent, Beattie, Harewood, Johnson just do not and would not.

Who is more likely to be the star of WC2006? Darren Bent or Theo Walcott?
Bent just does not have it in him, despites his goals.

I have seen enough of Walcott to see he is a better player.

This is my point about deserving to go.
Fuck that, to me you pick the best players and what is best for England.

I never ever go on stats. Thats bullshit. (though I agree you sometimes cannot ignore goals- this case I do)

It's amazing how goals influence people's opinions on players.

Lampard is a perfect example.
If he did not score as many goals, he would not get half the praise he does.
Not saying I have anything against Lampard as he is one of the very best at what he does, which is being a goalscoring midfielder.
But as a player, he is just not near World Class.

I just look at players and let my own feeling and judgement decide.

Rather than 'Darren Bent has scored 20 goals, he must be taken'.
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My thoughts exactly.
 
Would you pick Crouch ahead of Bent?

Nevertheless, I am not saying that the kid is a bad player. I just don't know him. I however find it amusing that you can say "I say he is a great player" and the very next line say "I never said he has played great". Doesn't it actually take playing great to be a great player? ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a very young Lennon-Walcott pair turn the WC upside down and succeed, I just love young players delivering their best and surprising. But I call this a little too over-optimistic about Theo.

But hey, there's more to discuss here. How on Earth is Sol going to the WC and King staying out? Why is Hargreaves in and, say, Phil Neville ain't?
 
Gedtillo said:
But hey, there's more to discuss here. How on Earth is Sol going to the WC and King staying out? Why is Hargreaves in and, say, Phil Neville ain't?
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Sol is shocking at the moment, there is no way he should have been included. Hopefully he will be 4th choice behind Carragher.

Fitness and injury concerns would be the reason King has not been included unfortunately.

Neville instead of Hargreaves...the phrase 'sh!t' and 'sh!te' come to mind. Neither should be considered.
 
Listen fellas we are getting nowhere ;)

My point about Rossi and Soldado is that wether you think they are better than Toni and Villa respectively.

If Walcott went ahead of Toni or Villa I would be mad!!!

My point is that it's because Bent is not that great so Walcott should go because he is better.
I wouldn't take Walcott ahead of Defoe.

Question yourself why Andy Johnson the lower league striker is ahead of Bent also??

I appreciate you points and love the banter (without the abuse!!;) )

And look forward to seeing wether he justifies his selection and arguing.

If he doesn't, I will be the first person to admit I am wrong.

But at the moment it is all ifs and buts.
 
Gedtillo said:
Would you pick Crouch ahead of Bent?

Nevertheless, I am not saying that the kid is a bad player. I just don't know him. I however find it amusing that you can say "I say he is a great player" and the very next line say "I never said he has played great". Doesn't it actually take playing great to be a great player? ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a very young Lennon-Walcott pair turn the WC upside down and succeed, I just love young players delivering their best and surprising. But I call this a little too over-optimistic about Theo.

But hey, there's more to discuss here. How on Earth is Sol going to the WC and King staying out? Why is Hargreaves in and, say, Phil Neville ain't?
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:lol:

Just to clear that up....
I however find it amusing that you can say "I say he is a great player" and the very next line say "I never said he has played great". Doesn't it actually take playing great to be a great player?

I mean I have seen enough of him to know he is a fantastic player and better than Bent.
Not that he has played great in the top league or scored like Bent has(scored goals in the top league).
But i've seen enough.
(Wenger saw less when he forked out £5m (rising to £12m) for him!

(It makes sense to me anyway:lol: ;) )
 
I took this from the sky sports website.

"Who is the most difficult opponent you have played against so far?
I played against Charlton’s reserves earlier this season and they had Manchester United’s left back Jonathan Spector playing for them. I thought he was an excellent player and he was probably the toughest defender that I have come up against so far."

I think this part says it all tbh. Nesta, Puyol, Lucio, Carvalho, Samuel, Ayala are some of the best defenders in the world. Its just a tad of a step up from Jonathon Spector. :roll: Now don't get me wrong, If it does come to him kicking a ball I will hope he will do great for us. I just feel very sceptical about this.
 
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