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BillyBoy
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Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Nice cover.
Nice cover.
PES2010 discussion thread
- Thread starter ThomasGOAL
- Start date
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
I know you are a Celtic fan, as am I, but I am not entirely convinced you actually know what a game engine consists of.
Games can consist of multiple engines. Graphics, animation, AI and other assets can all have there own engine. PES' animation engine might well not be used to it's full potential for all we know.
"New Engine needed" is just a buzz term adopted by those who want change, but don't really know what a game engine does.
I know you are a Celtic fan, as am I, but I am not entirely convinced you actually know what a game engine consists of.
Games can consist of multiple engines. Graphics, animation, AI and other assets can all have there own engine. PES' animation engine might well not be used to it's full potential for all we know.
"New Engine needed" is just a buzz term adopted by those who want change, but don't really know what a game engine does.
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Change the record mate.
There is actually nothing wrong with PES' wide cam at all. As far as it's use for a videogame goes it is perfect. PES isn't meant to replicate the game as seen on TV. It is meant to replicate the drama, instinct and ebb and flow of the actual sport first and foremost.
I hope they have included the Wii versions subtle zoom feature as play approaches either goal area though.
Change the record mate.
There is actually nothing wrong with PES' wide cam at all. As far as it's use for a videogame goes it is perfect. PES isn't meant to replicate the game as seen on TV. It is meant to replicate the drama, instinct and ebb and flow of the actual sport first and foremost.
I hope they have included the Wii versions subtle zoom feature as play approaches either goal area though.
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curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
The_Knight
Champions League
- 13 December 2005
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Replicate the drama. You said it. This is done by replicating reality, making the experience more dramatic. I am far from the only one who wanted panning back, which was on old-gen pes. Also, FIFA10 has had customizable cameras for about 8 years now. Finally, wouldn't you agree that having a visible reactive crowd through the widecam ingame would add more to the drama, creating a more authentic experience with a simple "option" that used to be in the old games?
Maybe you're just afraid of change, even if -when done right- it could yield amazing results. The one I'm suggesting preserves the 3D depth effect that you see in real-life in a stadium, or on TV, without affecting gameplay. You can still use a side scrolling camera all the way if you want, it's just an extra option that can work along with the settings of your choice.
PS - Can you even compare PES's atmosphere to NBA2K9's? They replicated the exact experience you get watching a game on TV:
YouTube - NBA 2K9 gameplay video Heat vs Blazers
Replicate the drama. You said it. This is done by replicating reality, making the experience more dramatic. I am far from the only one who wanted panning back, which was on old-gen pes. Also, FIFA10 has had customizable cameras for about 8 years now. Finally, wouldn't you agree that having a visible reactive crowd through the widecam ingame would add more to the drama, creating a more authentic experience with a simple "option" that used to be in the old games?
Maybe you're just afraid of change, even if -when done right- it could yield amazing results. The one I'm suggesting preserves the 3D depth effect that you see in real-life in a stadium, or on TV, without affecting gameplay. You can still use a side scrolling camera all the way if you want, it's just an extra option that can work along with the settings of your choice.
PS - Can you even compare PES's atmosphere to NBA2K9's? They replicated the exact experience you get watching a game on TV:
YouTube - NBA 2K9 gameplay video Heat vs Blazers
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Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
You clearly live on the moon with your idea of physics
Dr Force
Golden Boot Winner
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
I agree
I'm all for adding the detail in the atmosphere and the grounds etc, it makes it feel more satisfying going away from home and nicking a 1-0 with your section of away fans going m,ad in one corner of the ground.
This is why the nets, grass, crowd noises etc should be different at every ground, it just makes it an all round better game. To be fair, FIFA's crowd has been pretty ststic until now and given the changes they have made in 12 months i do not expect this to be a priority until next year.
Replicate the drama. You said it. This is done by replicating reality, making the experience more dramatic. I am far from the only one who wanted panning back, which was on old-gen pes. Also, FIFA10 has had customizable cameras for about 8 years now. Finally, wouldn't you agree that having a visible reactive crowd through the widecam ingame would add more to the drama, creating a more authentic experience with a simple "option" that used to be in the old games?
I agree
I'm all for adding the detail in the atmosphere and the grounds etc, it makes it feel more satisfying going away from home and nicking a 1-0 with your section of away fans going m,ad in one corner of the ground.
This is why the nets, grass, crowd noises etc should be different at every ground, it just makes it an all round better game. To be fair, FIFA's crowd has been pretty ststic until now and given the changes they have made in 12 months i do not expect this to be a priority until next year.
Michaelson9
Forever PeS6 Fan :)
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
This mean that I cant change club after season in master league in PES 2010 ? Catch I your answer good ?
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
dude you can hit a shot in PES at any angle at any time and as long as it's below the middle part of the shooting bar and your player has good shooting stats it will go in, or parry off the keeper for a rebound goal. It does not take into effect weather the player is actually in a good position to shoot or not.. fifa actually DOES do that, and you slammed it like it doesn't, you brought up fifa not me. I haven't had a go at you at all, I have just questioned your opinion. And as for the new game, you praised a goal by Henry where messi crossed from right to left with the outside of his left foot over 30 yards right to henry's foot!!! You gotta be kidding me if you think this is possible. MAYBE JUST MAYBE, they put a driving club on messi's foot and replaced the ball with a golf ball so he could dog leg it left like that.... Please explain how in the hell messi can do that, and please dont just say "I'm paid to play football so I just know" and if you are paid to play football let us know when your next game is so we can watch on tv and see you do this incredibly ridiculous cross
dude you can hit a shot in PES at any angle at any time and as long as it's below the middle part of the shooting bar and your player has good shooting stats it will go in, or parry off the keeper for a rebound goal. It does not take into effect weather the player is actually in a good position to shoot or not.. fifa actually DOES do that, and you slammed it like it doesn't, you brought up fifa not me. I haven't had a go at you at all, I have just questioned your opinion. And as for the new game, you praised a goal by Henry where messi crossed from right to left with the outside of his left foot over 30 yards right to henry's foot!!! You gotta be kidding me if you think this is possible. MAYBE JUST MAYBE, they put a driving club on messi's foot and replaced the ball with a golf ball so he could dog leg it left like that.... Please explain how in the hell messi can do that, and please dont just say "I'm paid to play football so I just know" and if you are paid to play football let us know when your next game is so we can watch on tv and see you do this incredibly ridiculous cross
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
I wouldn't object to a customisable camera, I just don't think it - or visible crowds in wide cam - are absolute necessities in adding more drama. It is all about what happens on the pitch, just like it is when playing the real sport.
PES for me anyway, has always done an excellent job in replicating the core philosophy of playing football. The instinct, skill, drama, and ebb and flow of the game are not necessarily things that are captured visually, though granted it can help a little.
FIFA does a superb job of capturing the game from a television broadcast perspevtive, and I don't mean just camera angles when I say that. Animations and audio do this for the main part. What FIFA lacks however, even in FIFA09 which I thought was a really good game(but still not a PES5 or 6) and from what I hear from some sources regards FIFA10 is that drama, natural flair, individuality and variance in patterns of play and tempo that make PES at it's finest stand out.
This may sound a tad pretentious, but it is the only way I can describe it. PES as it's absolute best(PES5,6 or even 2009 on the Wii) captures the true spirit of the actual sport.
I wouldn't object to a customisable camera, I just don't think it - or visible crowds in wide cam - are absolute necessities in adding more drama. It is all about what happens on the pitch, just like it is when playing the real sport.
PES for me anyway, has always done an excellent job in replicating the core philosophy of playing football. The instinct, skill, drama, and ebb and flow of the game are not necessarily things that are captured visually, though granted it can help a little.
FIFA does a superb job of capturing the game from a television broadcast perspevtive, and I don't mean just camera angles when I say that. Animations and audio do this for the main part. What FIFA lacks however, even in FIFA09 which I thought was a really good game(but still not a PES5 or 6) and from what I hear from some sources regards FIFA10 is that drama, natural flair, individuality and variance in patterns of play and tempo that make PES at it's finest stand out.
This may sound a tad pretentious, but it is the only way I can describe it. PES as it's absolute best(PES5,6 or even 2009 on the Wii) captures the true spirit of the actual sport.
The_Knight
Champions League
- 13 December 2005
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
The idea is to watch a game on TV where you control the team you're supporting. Reliving the same feeling you'd get if this team actually scores a goal in a real UEFA champions league you're watcting on TV or in a stadium.
Again, there's absolutely no comparison between PES's atmosphere and what other games have achieved like NBA2k9.
Your tone has a prevalent "PES is just fine the way it is please don't change it KONAMI"... which I think is what caused the lag behind FIFA in the next-gen, when PES production took fans literal suggestions (me one of them) to just have PES5 gameplay with FIFA's graphics.
Till now, scoring a goal feels like scoring a goal in a video game... you just skip the celebration and replays (using fictional cameras) and go on with the game... you can't see mad fans... authentic celebration and replay cameras...etc.
If the goal was to replicate the feeling you get playing the sport, you'd be playing with a first person view, or similar to the BAL or BaP camera.
The idea is to watch a game on TV where you control the team you're supporting. Reliving the same feeling you'd get if this team actually scores a goal in a real UEFA champions league you're watcting on TV or in a stadium.
Again, there's absolutely no comparison between PES's atmosphere and what other games have achieved like NBA2k9.
Your tone has a prevalent "PES is just fine the way it is please don't change it KONAMI"... which I think is what caused the lag behind FIFA in the next-gen, when PES production took fans literal suggestions (me one of them) to just have PES5 gameplay with FIFA's graphics.
Till now, scoring a goal feels like scoring a goal in a video game... you just skip the celebration and replays (using fictional cameras) and go on with the game... you can't see mad fans... authentic celebration and replay cameras...etc.
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curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
I'm sorry, but you are frankly way wide of the mark in so many aspects.
First of all, you are the one being far too literal if you think that capturing the sport can only be done via a Bal or Bap mode. You are not thinking outside the box at all. I have played the game at a decent-ish level for some 20yrs, until a horrific ankle injury has seen me have to call it a day. Not that you need to play at a high level of competition to understand what football is really all about.
When I play PES, and I exclude the last two years next gen efforts for a myriad of reasons, I get a similar buzz - or at least as close as you can get sitting in a room with a controller looking at a screen - to that which I get when playing the game. It demands the instinct, quick mindedness and composure that is required when I play for real. It doesn't obviously capture the athleticism and agility required, but what it does do to stay true to the feeling of playing the game is that it understands that football - tactics, strategy, and opposition aside - is an incredibly simple game to play. The human body may well have it's own mechanics, but the human brain makes these complex actions incredibly simple to perform depending on each individuals agility and athleticism. The feeling of individuality that PES offers therefore does a pretty stand up job replicating this aspect of the real sport. With each and every player I pass too, I get that connection with them and try to play to there strengths. It feels like I am the Ronaldinho, Xavi or Maldini that was in possession, and likewise it felt like I was up against these players when they were COM controlled opposition.
FIFA on the other hand - despite it being a great wee game in it's own right - over complicates the mechanics of playing the real sport, and as a result that individuality along with instinct and natural flair removes the sensation of drama as suddenly I feel like I am not really in the game but just controlling wonderfully animated models who all seem to play like one another bar pace.
Regards my 'tone', again you couldn't be more wrong. I want the game to capture all that I have said above first and foremost as it is what makes or breaks the game, then focus on aesthetics. I don't think PES is just fine the way it is regards graphics and animation, but I do feel they have the core philosophy aced in many respects and that is what I want to see evolve.
If you think that PES is primarily meant to capture the feeling of watching the game from your arm chair or in the stands then you miss the point of the game completely. Sure, having that sensation is a great addition, but I honestly couldn't care less about camera angles with visible crowds so long as they allow me to play the game well. I am not objecting to your wishes, I just don't think that they are as important as you seem to think.
Gameplay is everything, and this can only be enhanced, but not revolutionised as you seem to think by the aesthetics you wish for.
Sorry mate, but cloth physics are the furthest thing from my mind when playing the game.
I'm sorry, but you are frankly way wide of the mark in so many aspects.
First of all, you are the one being far too literal if you think that capturing the sport can only be done via a Bal or Bap mode. You are not thinking outside the box at all. I have played the game at a decent-ish level for some 20yrs, until a horrific ankle injury has seen me have to call it a day. Not that you need to play at a high level of competition to understand what football is really all about.
When I play PES, and I exclude the last two years next gen efforts for a myriad of reasons, I get a similar buzz - or at least as close as you can get sitting in a room with a controller looking at a screen - to that which I get when playing the game. It demands the instinct, quick mindedness and composure that is required when I play for real. It doesn't obviously capture the athleticism and agility required, but what it does do to stay true to the feeling of playing the game is that it understands that football - tactics, strategy, and opposition aside - is an incredibly simple game to play. The human body may well have it's own mechanics, but the human brain makes these complex actions incredibly simple to perform depending on each individuals agility and athleticism. The feeling of individuality that PES offers therefore does a pretty stand up job replicating this aspect of the real sport. With each and every player I pass too, I get that connection with them and try to play to there strengths. It feels like I am the Ronaldinho, Xavi or Maldini that was in possession, and likewise it felt like I was up against these players when they were COM controlled opposition.
FIFA on the other hand - despite it being a great wee game in it's own right - over complicates the mechanics of playing the real sport, and as a result that individuality along with instinct and natural flair removes the sensation of drama as suddenly I feel like I am not really in the game but just controlling wonderfully animated models who all seem to play like one another bar pace.
Regards my 'tone', again you couldn't be more wrong. I want the game to capture all that I have said above first and foremost as it is what makes or breaks the game, then focus on aesthetics. I don't think PES is just fine the way it is regards graphics and animation, but I do feel they have the core philosophy aced in many respects and that is what I want to see evolve.
If you think that PES is primarily meant to capture the feeling of watching the game from your arm chair or in the stands then you miss the point of the game completely. Sure, having that sensation is a great addition, but I honestly couldn't care less about camera angles with visible crowds so long as they allow me to play the game well. I am not objecting to your wishes, I just don't think that they are as important as you seem to think.
Gameplay is everything, and this can only be enhanced, but not revolutionised as you seem to think by the aesthetics you wish for.
Sorry mate, but cloth physics are the furthest thing from my mind when playing the game.
poloplo
Conference
- 11 July 2007
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Just looking at them pics two points come to mind, in picture 1 see how the two players have completly gone missing in relation to the ball.one of the many frustrating things with 2009.
In picture 2 i hope konami have finally changed these tired old banners.Please konami no more "who ate all the pies" because i did and it reminds me what a fat b**tard i am
The_Knight
Champions League
- 13 December 2005
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Well I may not have played professionally for 20 years the way you did, but I played with both my school, university and club teams and competed nationally. Sorry about your ankle injury, though I hope things turned out for the best.
Cloth physics are the furthest thing from my mind as well. I too want PES to primiarily focus on the agility, preciseness, and true spirit of the game. I'm talking about small things that produce big impacts in the game, the same way NBA 2K9's presentation delivers.
It's as if you're saying you ONLY want the things that really matter in the game, and nothing else. Whereas I'm saying please just bring back things that were already in previous iterations of the game and removed before, as well as things that other sports games have successfully replicated years ago.
Obviously the technology is still lagging behind in the way of true replication of the game, which is more of a reason why they should include the "easy" small things that affect the atmosphere of the game immensly. Why else do you think modders and patchers each year compete to create realistic TV scoreboards, to make the game look a bit more like what is delivered on TV?
Well I may not have played professionally for 20 years the way you did, but I played with both my school, university and club teams and competed nationally. Sorry about your ankle injury, though I hope things turned out for the best.
Cloth physics are the furthest thing from my mind as well. I too want PES to primiarily focus on the agility, preciseness, and true spirit of the game. I'm talking about small things that produce big impacts in the game, the same way NBA 2K9's presentation delivers.
It's as if you're saying you ONLY want the things that really matter in the game, and nothing else. Whereas I'm saying please just bring back things that were already in previous iterations of the game and removed before, as well as things that other sports games have successfully replicated years ago.
Obviously the technology is still lagging behind in the way of true replication of the game, which is more of a reason why they should include the "easy" small things that affect the atmosphere of the game immensly. Why else do you think modders and patchers each year compete to create realistic TV scoreboards, to make the game look a bit more like what is delivered on TV?
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master_smurf
Its just Reality
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Two things - 1. we should have both cameras - dont think you should alienate fans (especially when you had the feature previously)
2. I cant really understand the whole shooting argument - In a perfect world you can pan the PES model but when you compare it FIFA - I think it wins every time.
The engine argument is like the build one - we on the outside just dont know - Who can honestly say a new "engine" will be better than a one where a physics systems is integrated (if possible)
On the 360 argument - I am all for freedom of movement I think it will be a subtle thing (especially for users who already use the analog stick) that will enrich the overall experience.
ok that was 4 things - sorry.
Two things - 1. we should have both cameras - dont think you should alienate fans (especially when you had the feature previously)
2. I cant really understand the whole shooting argument - In a perfect world you can pan the PES model but when you compare it FIFA - I think it wins every time.
The engine argument is like the build one - we on the outside just dont know - Who can honestly say a new "engine" will be better than a one where a physics systems is integrated (if possible)
On the 360 argument - I am all for freedom of movement I think it will be a subtle thing (especially for users who already use the analog stick) that will enrich the overall experience.
ok that was 4 things - sorry.
Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
...
The_Knight
Champions League
- 13 December 2005
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
This is beyond basketball shorts... damn they're huge.
This is beyond basketball shorts... damn they're huge.
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
I should clear this up.
I never played pro, but had my spells with a few professional clubs at schoolboy level. Not that this is the place to discuss such matters, but player development is hinderd in my country by placing players in age groups by year. I was a relatively short kid who never really filled out and matured physically until my late teens early twenties, so instead of putting me in a group of players of similar physical stature and allowing me(and others) develop at a level that best suited our physicallity at that time, we were forced out due to us not being able to drop back a year or two, which is madness. This still happens in Scotland and it is crazy to judge players based on age whilst they are still kids. they don't do this in other parts of the world however and the result is an Iniesta, Messi, Davids etc.
Anyway, I cannae wait til PES2010 and FIFA. Hopefully the coming weeks reveal more and more improvements in all aspects about this years games.
I should clear this up.
I never played pro, but had my spells with a few professional clubs at schoolboy level. Not that this is the place to discuss such matters, but player development is hinderd in my country by placing players in age groups by year. I was a relatively short kid who never really filled out and matured physically until my late teens early twenties, so instead of putting me in a group of players of similar physical stature and allowing me(and others) develop at a level that best suited our physicallity at that time, we were forced out due to us not being able to drop back a year or two, which is madness. This still happens in Scotland and it is crazy to judge players based on age whilst they are still kids. they don't do this in other parts of the world however and the result is an Iniesta, Messi, Davids etc.
Anyway, I cannae wait til PES2010 and FIFA. Hopefully the coming weeks reveal more and more improvements in all aspects about this years games.
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
Curdstar, your a footballer first, and a gamer second. Finally, someone who I can tell from what he has written, understands footballing philosophy.
I have always said, nets, animations, licences etc etc are merely a bonus, without the fundementals in place, they mean nothing. Well, not for us footballers anyway.
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
Curdstar, your a footballer first, and a gamer second. Finally, someone who I can tell from what he has written, understands footballing philosophy.
I have always said, nets, animations, licences etc etc are merely a bonus, without the fundementals in place, they mean nothing. Well, not for us footballers anyway.
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
The_Knight
Champions League
- 13 December 2005
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
It sure would be brilliant if Messi had a decent "outside of the foot" crossing animation, where his leg has more backlift and continues moving tangencially to the ball...
It sure would be brilliant if Messi had a decent "outside of the foot" crossing animation, where his leg has more backlift and continues moving tangencially to the ball...
DavidBushell
Absolute Animal
- 14 May 2004
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Not harsh at all - you have simply backed up my point. I don't know what 360 dribbling is, which is probably why I can't see/recognise it, and probably why I don't care much for it.
Do you know what 360 dribbling is? I am keen to be enlightened. Perhaps you could point me in the direction of a youtube clip of Fifa or PES gameplay that clearly illustrates the difference?
Not harsh at all - you have simply backed up my point. I don't know what 360 dribbling is, which is probably why I can't see/recognise it, and probably why I don't care much for it.
Do you know what 360 dribbling is? I am keen to be enlightened. Perhaps you could point me in the direction of a youtube clip of Fifa or PES gameplay that clearly illustrates the difference?
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
From that stance there needs to be at least two animations. One for the 'stab' execution, which wouldnt give it the bend, but more height rather then speed. The other for 'slicing' through the bottom right hand corner of the ball with follow through, which would give it the bend.
From that stance there needs to be at least two animations. One for the 'stab' execution, which wouldnt give it the bend, but more height rather then speed. The other for 'slicing' through the bottom right hand corner of the ball with follow through, which would give it the bend.
DavidBushell
Absolute Animal
- 14 May 2004
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
I think this animation would be better suited to Calum Davenport!
I think this animation would be better suited to Calum Davenport!
The_Knight
Champions League
- 13 December 2005
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
There used to be a short but great youtube video showing the difference between 360 dribbling and 8-directional dribbling in NBA 2K8. but I can't find it... Anyway...
Say you want to move in a complete circle. Using old-gen controls, you won't move in a circle like you would in real life, instead you'll draw an octagon with 8 straight lines connected to each other, because those are the controls you got (up, up+right, right, right+down, down, down+left, left, left+up)
Each of these directions are separated by 45 degrees. So you only have 8 angles to choose from when directing your run or pass.
In 360 degree dribbling, using the analogue stick, you can run in a complete circle with all its 360 degrees. You can move your player in whichever direction you want, without being limited by the 8 directions. First of all, it looks a lot more realistic and fluid, and a lot less rigid and robotic than 8-directional movement.
However, most importantly, you are able to run and pass anywhere in any direction in the field, into a space, with no limitations, a kind of freedom which is what next-gen sports gaming is all about, as in real life where you can run or pass anywhere.
There used to be a short but great youtube video showing the difference between 360 dribbling and 8-directional dribbling in NBA 2K8. but I can't find it... Anyway...
Say you want to move in a complete circle. Using old-gen controls, you won't move in a circle like you would in real life, instead you'll draw an octagon with 8 straight lines connected to each other, because those are the controls you got (up, up+right, right, right+down, down, down+left, left, left+up)
Each of these directions are separated by 45 degrees. So you only have 8 angles to choose from when directing your run or pass.
In 360 degree dribbling, using the analogue stick, you can run in a complete circle with all its 360 degrees. You can move your player in whichever direction you want, without being limited by the 8 directions. First of all, it looks a lot more realistic and fluid, and a lot less rigid and robotic than 8-directional movement.
However, most importantly, you are able to run and pass anywhere in any direction in the field, into a space, with no limitations, a kind of freedom which is what next-gen sports gaming is all about, as in real life where you can run or pass anywhere.
Bendit
Champions League
- 12 November 2005
- UEFA CL
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
Good description of how valuable 360 degs is Knight. I have been playing PES so long that these days on field in real life I can only pass in eight directions. It's just lucky I don't run like Pamela Anderson. =P
Good description of how valuable 360 degs is Knight. I have been playing PES so long that these days on field in real life I can only pass in eight directions. It's just lucky I don't run like Pamela Anderson. =P
goalgerd
File Maker
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread
from all the news views and expert opinion id say pes10 will be a solid 8\10 game,fifa might be a 9\10 game so i dont think we will have reason to complain in october
from all the news views and expert opinion id say pes10 will be a solid 8\10 game,fifa might be a 9\10 game so i dont think we will have reason to complain in october