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PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

curdstar said:
Honestly, I think it sits right between the two, but then at the same time I think it is very much its own thing. Put it this way: it is never a sure thing with Advanced Shooting, as you may remember when watching that key game in my Benevento Calcio Serie B campaign all those months ago. Remember the sitter I missed from just over six yards out in that game? Entirely down to me not composing myself and instinctively pointing towards the goal, instead of pushing away from it when powering up and keeping the effort down. Sounds simple enough when you break it down like that, but I love how Advanced can punish you in much the same way Manual can. It's realistic. All the stats driven stuff in the world would have seen that effort go in no bother using Basic Shooting.
Click to expand...

Not if scripting was involved. I used advanced shooting in past pes games and I honestly found that I wasn't in control of the trajectory of the shot . . .it felt a bit assisted. .. as for that advanced through ball .. .that was nuts .. didn't make any sense whatsoever. . . you could press it slightly and it would go miles away.. . press it again with the same pressure and it would trickle 2 yards. . totally unpredictable. . .I'm on the fence about the advanced stuff but you're a seasoned campaigner so it's worth a try.
 
Honestly, it would be amazing if an early celebration could go wrong. I do like the early celebration stuff. Was PES 2010 I saw it first I believe.
 
Bond!JamesBond! said:
1:15
look how much open space :COAT: to pass, why is Borussia Dortmund defender so close to middle field.
image.png
Click to expand...
i strongly believe its tactical with defensive compactness
 
Ameppe said:
Could you make a video example (even from a real match) because i feel like i don't understand what you are saying about the lack of passing lanes being cut off. I know you have more experience than me having edited gameplay for years, in Fifa and Pes.

It's always great to learn new things.
Click to expand...

Sure, it was very apparent in older versions of PES, so I'll show that. Stay tuned :)
 
For football who doesn't really understand how positioning and off the ball movement work in football. I suggest you watch these videos. This is something our coached showed us on college varsity soccer.

Attacking:

Defending:
 
Alright, I have been reading a lot here and I am getting tired of people complaining and whining about positioning. PES 2017 itself is the best footie game by KONAMI and PES 2018 further improved it. I also like the direction PES is going making the gameplay more open, end-to-end and attack oriented. The more space, the more fun the gameplay is so please stop complaining and trying to make PES 2018 more boring and defensive. Games are suppose to be fun !
 
Topaz said:
For football who doesn't really understand how positioning and off the ball movement work in football. I suggest you watch these videos. This is something our coached showed us on college varsity soccer.

Attacking:

Defending:
Click to expand...

No, that's going to make PES 2018 more boring and every match to be 0-0.
 
Am I the only that hates how they made players look smaller in the field? I feel like this would ruin the game. It would exploit more space, increase sliding and make things look unnatural. Instead of making them look smaller they should make them look bigger cuz that's how we see them on tv. I know it's too late now but thats how I see it. I don't know maybe it's the camera settings they are using.
 
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Zorres said:
Alright, I have been reading a lot here and I am getting tired of people complaining and whining about positioning. PES 2017 itself is the best footie game by KONAMI and PES 2018 further improved it. I also like the direction PES is going making the gameplay more open, end-to-end and attack oriented. The more space, the more fun the gameplay is so please stop complaining and trying to make PES 2018 more boring and defensive. Games are suppose to be fun !
Click to expand...

There's also FIFA 17/18 for that you know. Konami branded PES as a realistic simulation of football which is why everyone is taking about the issues. No one is complaining.
 
Just played a game of 2017 Liverpool and Arsenal......it was good stuff.
Player camera manual passing and shooting.
I need to record a full 30min game because it was 0-1 until 86min mark when i scored finally! Then scored again at 89min winning 2-1.
Playing with these settings gives me midfield play galore!
AI and i were defending like rocks. AI was confused were to pass because of my defense getting into passing lanes.

Trust me, these settings change this game from, the end to end rookie youtube shit!
To unpredictable freedom football.... that's shit loads of fun.
Sprayed shoots, bad passing, and fouls was all there.

I will prove that i have found the sweet spot in new PES by recording my games this year.
It's all about camera angle, manual, and player skill.
Hopefully i can convert others to play this way, because it's really good. My videos will show.
 
curdstar said:
I watched some of Matt's PES3 gameplay and while I have no doubt if I went to back to play it again I would have fun, there would equally be no doubt, at all, that I would appreciate just how much has progressed in the genre in the 15 years since 2003.

The best PS2 PES' are still good games, but there are very much products of their time, and I feel that every time I have had a go of them. I'm also happy enough to admit that nostalgia washes over me when I do play them and that contributes massively to my enjoyment of them all these years later. If I played them without that feeling of nostalgia, without my muscle memory of them, I reckon that I would find the games to be hot steaming piss.

You want to know why I think these games endure to some extent? Why I think people think they are more realistic? Camera angle. That simple. The camera is tighter in the PS2 games and is in 4:3 aspect ratio too; simply put, it is a case of less being more. Thing us, I can do the same/similar with PES2015, PES2016, PES2017 and will also be able to do so in PES2018, to a degree that I actually can get a better tighter view of the action.

Serious question: how many folk here actually go and watch professional football with any regularity? If you do, why do you find yourself screaming out instructions to your players throughout the match, or bemoan their decision making? I'll tell you why, it is because of your perspective.

I do go to football matches fairly regularly at a number of levels in the professional sport as I have the luxury of having a mate who is player agent, so he gets complimentary tickets by players on his books, and it is the same everywhere I go. I love watching the game, and also know that if I or others in attendance make a comment on the action or a players decision making we do so from a disconnected perspective. We see space everywhere, regardless of the level the sport is being played. I am often elevated, looking over the action. I simply need to move my head left or right in order to see space, while a player out there on the field doesn't have that advantage. The dynamic/wide-cams used in these games give a player far too much of an advantage. IN fact, they are often positioned higher than that found in most broadcasts from stadiums the world over, so you get to see even more than what you would from broadcasts, never mind actually being at the match.

Another serious question(s): how many players set the camera to be more representative of how the game looked in the PS2 days? How many zoom it in a fair amount, or lower the height so as the 16:9 ratio, while still giving some benefits/improvement, isn't giving you a massive advantage?

I have played PES2017 more frequently than I have played any football from the last 10 years, and the reason I keep coming back to it is that playing from a tighter perspective and also me being able to adjust settings so as just a wee bit more is demanded of me (Advanced Shooting) sees the gameplay at its absolute best for me. It is not perfect, but it more than scratches an itch.

So all that above is exactly why I pay very little attention to comments about positioning and alike regards these videos. Not only are these comments based on watching and seeing space, much like it is when I go to watch a match, but the simple fact is that the space we can clearly see is something we can totally home in on, and not see it as we would when playing the game, where it is more in our peripheral vision, but again the further the camera sits up and out from the action the easier the game will be to play, and that isn't exclusive to PES2018, but more or less every single football game from the 16:9 HD era.

I don't envy the developers of either game when it comes to what they need to try do, year in, year out; trying to balance out and offer a challenge to a user when the viewpoint is such that it allows them to get a best of both worlds in that they can see/sense more of the space available to them, and actually can look to exploit it.

The videos from the last 24/48 hours have been excellent. The more videos I see the more satisfied I find myself, all while knowing that the first thing I do when I get my hands on the game is change the camera from the dynamic wide one, and select Advanced Shooting, so my experience will be even more unrelatable to the videos I have watched thus far for a game I, obviously, haven't actually played.

You could code these games to be more stats driven; code in near flawless positional awareness; so long as that camera sits high and wide you will always see/sense the space and always be able to take advantage of it. If you are a football fan, you will be hard wired to do exactly that, and that is why I, personally, find dynamic wide camera play annoying. Bring that camera in so as there is less information that can be seen on the screen, then you are, as best as a game can possibly do currently, getting closer to that claustrophobic feeling you can sometimes feel when actually playing the sport
Click to expand...
Will it limit the CPU AI vision too?
 
Zorres said:
Alright, I have been reading a lot here and I am getting tired of people complaining and whining about positioning. PES 2017 itself is the best footie game by KONAMI and PES 2018 further improved it. I also like the direction PES is going making the gameplay more open, end-to-end and attack oriented. The more space, the more fun the gameplay is so please stop complaining and trying to make PES 2018 more boring and defensive. Games are suppose to be fun !
Click to expand...
basketball is boring until the end, shit loads of scoring. Football is a defensive game that's rewarding to score because it's hard to score..... This is why offensive heavy FIFA sucks!

PES94 said:
Am I the only that hates how they made players look smaller in the field? I feel like this would ruin the game. It would exploit more space, increase sliding and make things look unnatural. Instead of making them look smaller they should make them look bigger cuz that's how we see them on tv. I know it's too late now but thats how I see it. I don't know maybe it's the camera settings they are using.
Click to expand...

well they look bigger on broadcast camera, so probably camera settings. What i see is PES players movement is too fast, while IRL it's slower.
 
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Zorres said:
Alright, I have been reading a lot here and I am getting tired of people complaining and whining about positioning. PES 2017 itself is the best footie game by KONAMI and PES 2018 further improved it. I also like the direction PES is going making the gameplay more open, end-to-end and attack oriented. The more space, the more fun the gameplay is so please stop complaining and trying to make PES 2018 more boring and defensive. Games are suppose to be fun !
Click to expand...
I admire your honesty. You get a like for that.
 
Bond!JamesBond! said:
Just played a game of 2017 Liverpool and Arsenal......it was good stuff.
Player camera manual passing and shooting.
I need to record a full 30min game because it was 0-1 until 86min mark when i scored finally! Then scored again at 89min winning 2-1.
Playing with these settings gives me midfield play galore!
AI and i were defending like rocks. AI was confused were to pass because of my defense getting into passing lanes.

Trust me, these settings change this game from, the end to end rookie youtube shit!
To unpredictable freedom football.... that's shit loads of fun.
Sprayed shoots, bad passing, and fouls was all there.

I will prove that i have found the sweet spot in new PES by recording my games this year.
It's all about camera angle, manual, and player skill.
Hopefully i can convert others to play this way, because it's really good. My videos will show.
Click to expand...
PES 17 still hits the sweet spot for me too, that's why I'm in no rush for 18 to be honest
 
Chris Davies said:
Surprised nobody is discussing this - video of human v superstar AI has been released by Next Gen Blog.

It's my favourite video so far, though A) it's weird how the AI keeps backing off (though it could be the tactics), and B)...

3:05 OUTRAGES me. Several times beforehand you see the power bar appear above the human player's head, trying to perform a pass, and the AI manages to throw a last-ditch block in. 3:05, the shoot button is pressed, and it's ignored so that the defender can recover the ball - you can say "he needs to get his body in position to shoot", but he's running free towards the goal. In reality he's getting a shot off 100 times out of 100. Tons of similar instances too.

Apart from that, I think it looks brilliant (genuinely)... Much more human-feeling AI.

Click to expand...
at 1:57 player should have turned his back to that defender and passed back to #5 or timed tapped L1 given you ball control to dribble by that defender.

at 2:10 he should have taking ball of chest and cleared it..... at 2:11 again he doesn't try to clear it he tries to long pass it.....and those last-ditch blocks wouldn't occur.

================================================================

hopefully the collision system is more accurate in 2018 producing proper fouls.
i see contact and no fouls sometimes in 2017 (this is something you see good with player camera) the collision system needs improvement and hopefully it's perfect by 2020..... this is something FIFA has done well.
 
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aussiepesfan said:
https://twitter.com/Surfer9x/status/879053252339388416
..cant remember seeing this before in any pes.. ie. player celebrating before the ball goes into the goal. Very nice.
Click to expand...

The funniest thing I ever saw in a game was against my brother in PES5. He had a penalty parried by my GK but the GK thought it went in so he was on his knees shaking his head when the ball was still in play. We was in hysterics as we wondered what was going on but my brother regained his composure and knocked it into an empty net and as he did my GK suddenly dived.

:LOL: really wish we had recorded it.
 
curdstar said:
I watched some of Matt's PES3 gameplay and while I have no doubt if I went to back to play it again I would have fun, there would equally be no doubt, at all, that I would appreciate just how much has progressed in the genre in the 15 years since 2003.

The best PS2 PES' are still good games, but there are very much products of their time, and I feel that every time I have had a go of them. I'm also happy enough to admit that nostalgia washes over me when I do play them and that contributes massively to my enjoyment of them all these years later. If I played them without that feeling of nostalgia, without my muscle memory of them, I reckon that I would find the games to be hot steaming piss.

You want to know why I think these games endure to some extent? Why I think people think they are more realistic? Camera angle. That simple. The camera is tighter in the PS2 games and is in 4:3 aspect ratio too; simply put, it is a case of less being more. Thing us, I can do the same/similar with PES2015, PES2016, PES2017 and will also be able to do so in PES2018, to a degree that I actually can get a better tighter view of the action.

Serious question: how many folk here actually go and watch professional football with any regularity? If you do, why do you find yourself screaming out instructions to your players throughout the match, or bemoan their decision making? I'll tell you why, it is because of your perspective.

I do go to football matches fairly regularly at a number of levels in the professional sport as I have the luxury of having a mate who is player agent, so he gets complimentary tickets by players on his books, and it is the same everywhere I go. I love watching the game, and also know that if I or others in attendance make a comment on the action or a players decision making we do so from a disconnected perspective. We see space everywhere, regardless of the level the sport is being played. I am often elevated, looking over the action. I simply need to move my head left or right in order to see space, while a player out there on the field doesn't have that advantage. The dynamic/wide-cams used in these games give a player far too much of an advantage. IN fact, they are often positioned higher than that found in most broadcasts from stadiums the world over, so you get to see even more than what you would from broadcasts, never mind actually being at the match.

Another serious question(s): how many players set the camera to be more representative of how the game looked in the PS2 days? How many zoom it in a fair amount, or lower the height so as the 16:9 ratio, while still giving some benefits/improvement, isn't giving you a massive advantage?

I have played PES2017 more frequently than I have played any football from the last 10 years, and the reason I keep coming back to it is that playing from a tighter perspective and also me being able to adjust settings so as just a wee bit more is demanded of me (Advanced Shooting) sees the gameplay at its absolute best for me. It is not perfect, but it more than scratches an itch.

So all that above is exactly why I pay very little attention to comments about positioning and alike regards these videos. Not only are these comments based on watching and seeing space, much like it is when I go to watch a match, but the simple fact is that the space we can clearly see is something we can totally home in on, and not see it as we would when playing the game, where it is more in our peripheral vision, but again the further the camera sits up and out from the action the easier the game will be to play, and that isn't exclusive to PES2018, but more or less every single football game from the 16:9 HD era.

I don't envy the developers of either game when it comes to what they need to try do, year in, year out; trying to balance out and offer a challenge to a user when the viewpoint is such that it allows them to get a best of both worlds in that they can see/sense more of the space available to them, and actually can look to exploit it.

The videos from the last 24/48 hours have been excellent. The more videos I see the more satisfied I find myself, all while knowing that the first thing I do when I get my hands on the game is change the camera from the dynamic wide one, and select Advanced Shooting, so my experience will be even more unrelatable to the videos I have watched thus far for a game I, obviously, haven't actually played.

You could code these games to be more stats driven; code in near flawless positional awareness; so long as that camera sits high and wide you will always see/sense the space and always be able to take advantage of it. If you are a football fan, you will be hard wired to do exactly that, and that is why I, personally, find dynamic wide camera play annoying. Bring that camera in so as there is less information that can be seen on the screen, then you are, as best as a game can possibly do currently, getting closer to that claustrophobic feeling you can sometimes feel when actually playing the sport
Click to expand...

I play the game on Mid Range Cam. Zoom 3 and Height 5 so I do see your point.
 
geeeeee said:
The funniest thing I ever saw in a game was against my brother in PES5. He had a penalty parried by my GK but the GK thought it went in so he was on his knees shaking his head when the ball was still in play. We was in hysterics as we wondered what was going on but my brother regained his composure and knocked it into an empty net and as he did my GK suddenly dived.

:LOL: really wish we had recorded it.
Click to expand...

IMO PES5 (and certainly not PES6, that game was slaughtered here on this sites and in reviews) is the one game people should be nostalgic about (not the best in the series, that is PES2017 for me).
If what happened to geeee and his brother would have happened in a game post PES6, people would cite that as an example how bad PES has become...

I've been reading the comments of the last days and i must say that i'm once again astonished. IMO you can't Judge the game now and not on the basis of videoclips.

Of course Konami are infuriating in lots of aspects, but it seems that expecatations are too high...
 
curdstar said:
I am going to post up a goal I scored on myClub a couple of nights ago. You can all dissect it to your heart's content and I appreciate the irony that I am using the dynamic wide cam, but myClub/online play unfortunately feels like it demands me to use it to find myself on a more even footing with my opponent. Lag, however slight, is going to be a factor too. I would love to be able to customise the camera to how I set it offline in online play, and maybe for a league to be set-up among like-minded players.

PA1 passing and advanced shooting used.

The thing I want you all to think about, while taking the goal, the positioning or whatever completely apart piece by piece, is how I felt at the time after scoring it, along with where my focus was in creating it. Just how much do you think I was getting concerned about player positioning? If there are issues, does that mean everything I felt about the goal is completely invalidated?


I watch that and know it is mine; know where my focus was and just how in tune I was feeling with my players thanks to me...well, y'know, actually participating and not simply watching.
Click to expand...

Zorres said:
Alright, I have been reading a lot here and I am getting tired of people complaining and whining about positioning. PES 2017 itself is the best footie game by KONAMI and PES 2018 further improved it. I also like the direction PES is going making the gameplay more open, end-to-end and attack oriented. The more space, the more fun the gameplay is so please stop complaining and trying to make PES 2018 more boring and defensive. Games are suppose to be fun !
Click to expand...

This and this!

Not trying to get on the passionate position freaks here :)
I really understand where you are coming from and all up open spaces that don't make it feel rewarding when scoring is surely not my cup of tea.
But in all honesty...
I watch the goals I scored and it makes me feel good.
Simply because it's not easy scoring them the way I play and my combinations and goals are not repetitive either.
Positioning IS important but it never felt that extremely wrong to me that it makes me being worried about the future release.

But I'd love to have more tactic options like we used to have earlier.
I wanna be able to give every player individual instructions for example.
I wanna be able to tell my winners to stay up front or to be more defensive.
Same for my wing defenders.
 
gerd said:
IMO PES5 (and certainly not PES6, that game was slaughtered here on this sites and in reviews) is the one game people should be nostalgic about (not the best in the series, that is PES2017 for me).
If what happened to geeee and his brother would have happened in a game post PES6, people would cite that as an example how bad PES has become...

I've been reading the comments of the last days and i must say that i'm once again astonished. IMO you can't Judge the game now and not on the basis of videoclips.

Of course Konami are infuriating in lots of aspects, but it seems that expecatations are too high...
Click to expand...

Pes 5 was great because compared to Pes 4 it was like a different game altogether. I remember reading here on evo web about we9 and many people were very upset about the game being too frustrating to play saying things like "KONAMI, what have you done, you ruined Pes!", then the same people days later came back to the board discussing how much better they felt the game was. The major complaint from people was too much fouls.Indeed fouls frequency was toned down in Pes 5 release compared to We 9.

I wish Pes 2018 would be so different from Pes 2017 you have to relearn and readapt to it, only to discover days later how much better it is.
 
gerd said:
Of course Konami are infuriating in lots of aspects, but it seems that expecatations are too high...
Click to expand...
I totally agree we all expect too much, and I include myself in that, Gerd. I can well imagine people get sick of my cynicism - I don't even feel 100% comfortable posting it myself, because I sound like a broken record, and it comes across as wanting to be a party pooper as opposed to "I love this game and want it to be perfect for all of us".

But, on the topic of judging from video clips:

gerd said:
IMO you can't Judge the game now and not on the basis of videoclips.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of videos out there now (which is great of Konami to do - there's nothing like that from their rival).

To take the most basic example I can think of (and one of the most repeated criticisms of PES 2017) - forget the stuff that's more subjective and/or complicated and/or easy to miss while you're playing - the AI still aren't committing fouls. The videos are clear evidence of this.

It boggles my mind that in most spheres of life, video evidence is considered pretty important, whereas in PESland, it's debated - yes, there are factors such as difficulty level and pass assistance, and guess what, that should make no difference. The AI should make these mistakes - because that's what fouls are, essentially - on all levels, and no matter your pass assist level. I mean, if someone says "well I get them with my settings", good for you, but that doesn't fix it for everybody else, does it.

But I'm going to completely contradict myself now and say this...

As I said at the start, I agree that we (and I) expect too much. What I sort of wish for is that Konami would say "look, there aren't many fouls and positioning isn't perfect because how else do you expect a 12-14 minute match to have the action or the scoreline of a 90 minute match - and the vast majority will play with the default half lengths and default control settings, even PES veterans, so obviously we have to cater to them, we don't sit in our offices thinking 'how can we make the game better for the 1% of our fan-base who play 20 minute matches on manual passing, advanced shooting and make up their own transfer embargo rules in the Master League to make it more difficult for themselves', you guys are maniacs".

If they did, then maybe we could all focus on other things.

But for as long as their social media team responds to the most carefully crafted, carefully researched analysis videos with no understanding of the subject matter - and that's not being a cock about it, when they don't make a flat "you're wrong" statement they say things like "it's because of my advanced instructions" (which, if anything, proves the point, because players shouldn't forget positional basics because of them) - then we'll never know what the developers think about it (which is a point I believe @curdstar has made before now - I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong ;))).

That is key, for me.
 
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One other thing:

Isn't bad or wrong positioning part of realism?
Don't we have the moderators on, for example sky sports who analyze the game piece by piece after every match?
U know when they pause the screen and move around the defenders and go like "he wasn't positioned well, that's why the striker had space" etc.

That happens after EVERY match and aren't matches boring when every side managed it to stay in perfect position during the whole game?

I don't want perfect positioning...

That's the way I see it at least :)
 
Chris Davies said:
To take the most basic example I can think of (and one of the most repeated criticisms of PES 2017) - forget the stuff that's more subjective and/or complicated and/or easy to miss while you're playing - the AI still aren't committing fouls. The videos are clear evidence of this.

It boggles my mind that in most spheres of life, video evidence is considered pretty important, whereas in PESland, it's debated - yes, there are factors such as difficulty level and pass assistance, and guess what, that should make no difference. The AI should make these mistakes - because that's what fouls are, essentially - on all levels, and no matter your pass assist level. I mean, if someone says "well I get them with my settings", good for you, but that doesn't fix it for everybody else, does it.
Click to expand...
Fouls are limited by design, Adam has discussed this. He said in a tweet or article that too many fouls would cause stop start games. I completely disagree with this. The early PES had fouls, penalties etc and it was fine. I think they are trying to create an end to end game, constantly flowing or they haven't mastered the collision system yet properly with the AI and its a smoke screen - one things for sure in my opinion you cannot have a Man U v Liverpool derby and have 0 or 1 foul, that does not represent football in the slightest.
 
hitmanuk said:
Fouls are limited by design, Adam has discussed this. He said in a tweet or article that too many fouls would cause stop start games. I completely disagree with this. The early PES had fouls, penalties etc and it was fine. I think they are trying to create an end to end game, constantly flowing or they haven't mastered the collision system yet properly with the AI and its a smoke screen - one things for sure in my opinion you cannot have a Man U v Liverpool derby and have 0 or 1 foul, that does not represent football in the slightest.
Click to expand...

When did he say such thing?

I also asked him on twitter if it's true or not. Because that in my opinion is completely wrong. i don't want start stop games, but at least more contact fouls are needed, can't really say a game is realistic with an average of 0-1 fouls per match.
 
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