PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

[Chris Davies]

Corrected.

For them to consistently create pre-release builds that feel better - which is a vague term, I should say more realistic (slower, "weightier", less frenetic)... Well, logic would dictate there's a reason why they change it every time. I'd love to know what it is.

@B-Man talks about the producer proudly saying "I've been working on those things you're talking about" - then in the full release, that stuff isn't there any more. Why?

Are they getting completely different feedback in their home market (Asia)? Are they listening to the YouTubers (i.e. kids) at these events, who don't represent the average Evo-Web member? Are they producing something that they know will impress the older press, then changing it for mass-consumption after they've waxed lyrical about it?

 

[Chuny]

For them to consistently create pre-release builds that feel better - which is a vague term, I should say more realistic (slower, "weightier", less frenetic)... Well, logic would dictate there's a reason why they change it every time. I'd love to know what it is.

@B-Man talks about the producer proudly saying "I've been working on those things you're talking about" - then in the full release, that stuff isn't there any more. Why?

Are they getting completely different feedback in their home market (Asia)? Are they listening to the YouTubers (i.e. kids) at these events, who don't represent the average Evo-Web member? Are they producing something that they know will impress the older press, then changing it for mass-consumption after they've waxed lyrical about it?

I really think this is all your fault.

 

[Madmac79]

The final logic it's clearly (at least to me) that a lighter, faster game appeals better to the most of the kind of crowd that plays modern online.

The real mistery is why they keep on presenting more simlike builds in first place.. maybe it's really a twisted market logic to try and take both type of buyers..

By the way, I'll only trust the final game from now on, and surely after a good amount of time and feedback from trusted users. If that's the situation, betas, E3 events and the such are completely useless to even look at.

 

[gerd]

I think that the evo-web member is not the typical PES player anymore...

 

[Chris Davies]

I think that the evo-web member is not the typical PES player anymore...

Sadly, I agree - yet, I can't imagine a huge younger following given that it's full of fake kits and fake names. Can't help but feel we may still be important.

 

[Chuny]

I realize how pedantic this is so forgive me for quoting myself:

Yesterday I came to a realization: Not Konami or EA are or were ever unaware of how flawed their games are.
We are only fooling ourselves if we think Adam is choosing not to hear us, or if he thinks everything's alright with PES.

We are kidding ourselves if we think they don't test and re-test and re-re-test the game every day as they are working on it.
They know exactly what we're going to complain about months before they release their product and they know what they need to say.

Do you think the developers of FIFA don't realize how fast FIFA is? How quick the ball goes from one player to another, or from one side of the pitch to the furthest?. You don't think they watch football AS they work on the game enough to say "hey, this is like football but times 2x"? They decide this stuff for a reason.
They probably test hundreds of builds: Very slow ones, slow, normal, etc. And they probably get bored playing those, so they say "the masses aren't going to like the game this way. We need to make it more rushy to make it exciting".

Let's face it, 60% of the people wouldn't enjoy the complexity and 'boringness' (is that even a word?) of a true football simulator.

 

[Chris Davies]

I realize how pedantic this is so forgive me for quoting myself:

But when they hear feedback like Bryan's and the producer says he's specifically been working on things that make the game slower/weightier - and this happens every year, with every pre-release version... Why are they making that more "thoughtful" game in the first place? Why are the pre-release versions literally never super-fast?

 

[Chuny]

But when they hear feedback like Bryan's and the producer says he's specifically been working on things that make the game slower/weightier - and this happens every year, with every pre-release version... Why are they making that more "thoughtful" game in the first place? Why are the pre-release versions not hectic?

We don't know what goes on in the background. Who calls the shots? What are they trying to pursue (other than money, obviously)?. We can speculate all we want, but we don't know anything for real. All we know is how let down we feel when playing the game year after year.

 

[manmachine]

Chris, didn't you post something interesting in the past which showed that single player modes were actually more popular? I could be wrong. Of course the thing is, game modes with microtransactions do make more money even if it's from fewer people. A few addicted people can spend thousands.

It is depressing to know that the game a lot of us are waiting for could be very easily made, and may even exist already in some vault at konami, never to be released. Someone should leak it on wikileaks or something! Pes development feels like having a clean kitchen and some of the best and most expensive ingredients to work with (ball physics, dribbling), proceeding to make a great game/recipe with them, before the manager storms in yelling "guys just quickly drown that damn pasta with ketchup, that's the most profitable dish".

Should the gambling modes that pose as football (fut, myclub) finally be their own game? Is our best hope fut/myclub people eventually demanding something that plays closer to the real thing? Is there something stopping konami from having different gameplay in these modes, does it have to be the same? And why not give people more OPTIONS?

Is there any value to producing a football game that actually resembles the real sport? I believe there is, but someone smart has to convince someone that this makes financial sense.

 

[Dennis_87]

I think that it's 1 of the 2.

Either it's a cynical on purpose market trick to try and win the sim audience also so they pre order the game after seeing and hearing that finally it's a sim game and not fast arcady and then when they release it they make it more arcady again to win the online audience also.So in this way they have profit from both audiences.

Or they really try to achieve something realistic and produce a sim game but then they change their mind last moment because they're affraid that the biggest mass of people will find it boring or difficult so they're once again change it to make it more playable for the average user.

But unfortunatelly i think that it's the first one.I don't think that they leave these things to luck but instead they know exactly what they're doing and the only goal is to make as much more money as possible.They're a business company after all.I don't know if we can blame them in that aspect because in the end of the day they produce what most people want to have,and that is a super responsive fast ''fun'' game.If we can blame someone then we must blame all these fucking kids and average users who ask for such gameplay lol.

But somehow i think that if they produce a great sim game they'll still have much profits because many current players will buy it and many Fifa players who are fed up with Fifa's arcadyness and want something different will buy it and even people who are fed up with both games and currently don't buy neither of them will buy it.And if the arcady lovers are being tricked to buy it,well fuck them lol.It's their turn to be tricked.We have been tricked so many times.
Konami just have to ignore their childish complaints for once and grow some balls.

It's a game but it's also a form of art.They have for once to respect their product and finally introduce something that it's close to their vision of football(because if they want,they can do it as we know from early builds) and stop worrying about childish complaints that they can't dribble the whole team with Neymar and it's not fun anymore.
Many people would appreciate that stance and they would have both ethical and economical profit from it.

Yeah this sounds romantic talking about ethics when we live in a capitalistic world.But i really think this could work for them and they wouldn't lose sales.Maybe they would gain even more.But they really have to try it.Just try it for once.
Otherwise they'll never know and we'll never know what would happen.

 

[DuduBR9]

It's true that for the last couple of years the retail version ends up being worse than early builds.At least for people who like a more sim experience.I'm pretty sure by now that they're doing this on purpose because if it's happened 3-4 times already it's not a coincidence any more.
They invite experienced sim loving members on their early shows and show them a gameplay that they will like and praise and will spread the word out that the game is very good to gain good publicity and hype the audience.

And then with the retail version the bullshit starts again so they can win the clueless online audience who don't know shit about how real football works and just wanna have some ''fun''.They remove and butcher animations so they can have ridiculous response times again(because clueless people will start complaining about delay and they don't understand that some little amount of time must pass until a player passes or shoots the ball or dribbles,but they want all these to be happening immediatelly in flash times and they don't give a fuck if it looks robotic and fake.)
They speed up the game again every time and in general making it more arcady than the early builds or demo versions.

This bullshit has to stop.There are many many people who would like a proper sim game.Maybe they don't know that and they think that all the people want fast arcady ''fun'' gameplay.Well they have to release a proper sim game for once and maybe they will be surprised in a good way,both in terms of critics and sales.But they have to try and do this,otherwise they won't know.

They tried to go to a more sim route with Pes 2014 but most people start bashing them so now maybe they think that people don't want a sim route.But the thing was that it had many good sim elements but it was also an unfinished game that they had to take care more in general before release it.So maybe they misunderstood the message that people don't want sim and they have to bring again such a game but polished and finished this time and then see the reactions.

I read here that they've put a microtransaction for Metal Gear Survive(a fucking joke of a game honestly and it's just sad how this series ended up) to pay 10$ just to unlock a second save slot.That's really fucking pathetic and it just shows their mentality and priorities for the time.They really have to stop being such wankers because eventually everyone will abandon them in the end,even people who still follow them until now.

We all just want a proper sim football game.Is this so much to ask?Just try it for once Konami and see how it goes.
Stop changing the game every fucking year and making it arcady again to please the online people in the retail version.I'm pretty sure there are also many many people who don't want an online ping pong fest,so what about them?

I'm still playing some Pes 2018 for the time because there isn't something better for my likings for now but i'm aware of it's problems and there are many unfortunatelly.They really have to do much better for next version and improve many things and in general take a more sim route again but this time really nail it and not introduce an unfinished game.Just try it Konami.Just fucking try it.Enough with the same bullshit every year.

For some this might sound like a conspiracy theory, but it seems that this is whats been happening for years now and I have expereinced that myself countless times playing betas and demos.

The only PES that I skipped in all my life was Pes 2009 and 2010 (but I played the latter for some weeks tho). Since then, I've always been noticing some adjustments from betas/demos to retail version that definetly made the game more accessible and less realistic at the same time.

I remember that PES 2011 DEMO was one of the few Pes games that followed the classic and my beloved Winning Eleven 9 when it comes to defending, as you really had to time well your tackles, and the more agressive you went on the ball, the higher the risk of conceeding fouls.

This is just simply logic being translated on the game and the latest PES have gotten away from it, wich is really disppointing.

In PES 2018, among with other issues, you can only foul you opponent with double tap on X or slide tackles, wich is rificulous.

I believe they are capable of making a more satisfying game for the hardcore audiance, with more passing/shooting erros based on stats and contextual erros (wrong foot, pressure, balance, first time passes etc) and with more weighted movement on the ball with less gliding etc, but they dont have the balls to do it

The fact that Adam himself admited that they made the game with less fouls on purpose just to make it like a non stop action (arcade) is very telling. They have this idea that realism wont please the majority of people who just want an end to end, easy to attack game.

 

[Matt10]

But when they hear feedback like Bryan's and the producer says he's specifically been working on things that make the game slower/weightier - and this happens every year, with every pre-release version... Why are they making that more "thoughtful" game in the first place? Why are the pre-release versions literally never super-fast?

I've been watching A LOT of W1A on Netflix. It's brilliant, hilarious and frustrating. I imagine a conversation with a Japanese dev and a community member conversation goes like:

Community Member: "See this space, that's just too much, because the defensive line is following the attacker"

Dev: "Oh, I see"

Community Member: "So, what can we do to solve that?"

Dev: "Yeah, cool, I think we can go towards a direction, that is a direction to go to - that eventually will get us to where a direction reaches the place to be."

Community Members: "Right....?"

Marketing/PR on Twitter: "Brilliant, just so brilliant."

 

[Chuny]

I remember listening to the pre-demo Podcast with @B-Man and Adam Bhatti here in Argentina. It was around September if I'm not mistaken (or late August)? Very late in the night. I remember the passion in Adam's voice when talking about PES 2018 and also B-Man's, of course. Remember feeling anxious again just like when I was a little kid.
Adam was acknowledging some of PES longest issues. Like spilling them all out. Being straight about it, laying it all out. It made me feel so relaxed. Like... this guy isn't messing around, they have really worked on everything that was bothering me. I loved his honesty and simplicity.

Oh well... guess that's exactly why he gets paid
(And later on even why he was moved to Tokio)

 

[Lami]

@B-Man talks about the producer proudly saying "I've been working on those things you're talking about" - then in the full release, that stuff isn't there any more. Why?

Probably working on removing them

(And later on even why he was moved to Tokio)

If he's actually in Tokyo now with the devs 24/7 and the next game turns out the same philosophy of the last few games then I'll have lost all hope in him. This is his chance to prove we're on the same page.

Of course I'm assuming he has influence on the game, which he should at this point.

 

[Ameppe]

Konami is not just Adam Bhatti. Even if he now is in the same room with other devs, it's the higher ups that decide if the game must be catered to everyone or if they want to try to have a much more simulative game. Developers just develop the game following the managers directions.

If, for example, Masuda decides to make and develop a new Pes gameplay, with a new hardcore direction, he has to submit his ideas to managers, to the people that fund them. The problem is those people want Pes to just be a constant money revenue. If those managers think that a more simulative approach is not going to guarantee them money Masuda and developers are forced to water down the simulative approach and make the game as easy to pick up and play as possible.

I have no confidence Bhatti will have an impact, Konami as a whole must change its way of developing games before we can hope Pes to be great again.

 

[Lami]

Konami is not just Adam Bhatti. Even if he now is in the same room with other devs, it's the higher ups that decide if the game must be catered to everyone or if they want to try to have a much more simulative game. Developers just develop the game following the managers directions.

If, for example, Masuda decides to make and develop a new Pes gameplay, with a new hardcore direction, he has to submit his ideas to managers, to the people that fund them. The problem is those people want Pes to just be a constant money revenue. If those managers think that a more simulative approach is not going to guarantee them money Masuda and developers are forced to water down the simulative approach and make the game as easy to pick up and play as possible.

I have no confidence Bhatti will have an impact, Konami as a whole must change its way of developing games before we can hope Pes to be great again.

I wonder what him moving there means then. Don't know if it's permanent or temporary.

 

[Isslander]

You should abandon hope right away! It's a full on miracle that Konami is even making games anymore, after the whole MGS thing and falling out with Kojima.
I enjoy PES still but I think the best 'the old hardcore' can hope for is something somewhat resembling a football game while the mad masses hold production above water by paying for MyClub.
In theory, I think something like having Dalglish and Gerrard playing together sounds fun but I would rather just play Witcher 3 to get my fantasy fix.
Just keep regular leagues and cups in there and I will survive.

 

[Ameppe]

I wonder what him moving there means then. Don't know if it's permanent or temporary.

I think they are trying to better understand what European fans want. Bhatti being the point of contact between the English speaking fanbase and the Japanese developers. He is learning Japanese, too.

But like i said before, it means nothing to me, because they can't do much better than this with the actual Konami situation.

Konami first ruined Pes, then abandoned every single other franchise they have except Metal Gear and finally they managed to destroy even the Metal Gear name. Metal Gear Survive is a total flop in sales and now the only console game they have is Pes. And Pes is more and more a free to play game considering how outdated and non functional its offline modes are. The core of Pes is now Myclub, sadly.

Expecting a glorious return to form for Pes is now wishful thinking.

More or less it's what @Isslander said.

 

[saintric]

the insanity of superstar does make me laugh sometimes its my own fault I love the challenge sometimes of a game where everything goes against me

I just played cremonese in ML I went 1-0 down after 5 minutes and after that I was playing superb but every chance I had went wide no matter where I shot from then suddenly I score a beautiful worked goal vs their back 10 and make it 1-1 in the 60th minute yess!

meanwhile during my celebration cremonese striker the bumbling fool benjamin monkulu is hypnotized in to thinking he is lionel messi by his team bench and goes on to score in the 61st min, 64th,and 68th

to top it off cremonese score a free kick in the 85th minute and I lose 5-1 part of me wishes I didnt score, took the 1-0 loss and still retain my soul which left my body after monkulus hattrick in 7 minutes

 

[manmachine]

Let's not be 100% certain however that all decisions at the top are rational. They may well be, but we also know for a fact that someone at the top was stubborn enough to keep the pc version "last gen" for years, for a stupid grudge. We had to wait till now for someone to finally convince him that this was probably bad for business...

 

[Thespeedster84]

I've been watching A LOT of W1A on Netflix. It's brilliant, hilarious and frustrating. I imagine a conversation with a Japanese dev and a community member conversation goes like:

Community Member: "See this space, that's just too much, because the defensive line is following the attacker"

Dev: "Oh, I see"

Community Member: "So, what can we do to solve that?"

Dev: "Yeah, cool, I think we can go towards a direction, that is a direction to go to - that eventually will get us to where a direction reaches the place to be."

Community Members: "Right....?"

Marketing/PR on Twitter: "Brilliant, just so brilliant."

yeah that situation where defensive ai following attacker off the ball too far that makes for shooting space open widely is not necessary. But konami probably want to have more shooting action in pes 2018.

 

[Chuny]

Like I tweeted to Officialpes and Adam, if PES 2019 doesn't come with Sliders and a sofisticated tactics/strategy system + MasterLeague, I won't buy the game. It's going to have to be shocking, worlds apart from what we have now. Otherwise I will pirate the game and I have no problem saying it, since they don't deserve my money anymore.

They can go back to downgrade the PC version for all I care.

 

[superleeds1]

Like I tweeted to Officialpes and Adam, if PES 2019 doesn't come with Sliders and a sofisticated tactics/strategy system + MasterLeague, I won't buy the game. It's going to have to be shocking, worlds apart from what we have now. Otherwise I will pirate the game and I have no problem saying it, since they don't deserve my money anymore.

They can go back to downgrade the PC version for all I care.

You really could have a problem saying You will pirate the game,if You really want to walk the plank here.
And thats not just me, its all mods & admin at Evo -Web.

 

[aderow]

Like I tweeted to Officialpes and Adam, if PES 2019 doesn't come with Sliders and a sofisticated tactics/strategy system + MasterLeague, I won't buy the game. It's going to have to be shocking, worlds apart from what we have now. Otherwise I will pirate the game and I have no problem saying it, since they don't deserve my money anymore.

They can go back to downgrade the PC version for all I care.

I'm in the same boat. Although I won't be torrenting it as I have a crap laptop that can't run even minecraft lol. I bought 2017. First one I'd bought since 2009. 2017 was a disappointment. Between the injuries, the lack of midfield/end to end gameplay, I ended up doing something I haven't done in a rather long time. I sold it.
Bought 2018 reluctantly hoping things would be different. Unfortunately they were not. And while I haven't sold it, it's on the shelf and probably won't move from there.

I'm a very tolerant person. And I have a habit of enduring a lot with games because I like to justify my $60 purchase. So honestly it wouldn't take much for them to get the game to a place where I would be able to stick with it.

But the game has a lot of glaring issues. At least I see them as issues. And frankly I don't agree with their current interpretation of football. And if things continue in the same vein, I don't think I can continue spending money on it.

In other news, I reinstalled PES 6. Didn't realize people were still making patches for it. So bring on the nostalgia.

 

[Topaz]

Like I tweeted to Officialpes and Adam, if PES 2019 doesn't come with Sliders and a sofisticated tactics/strategy system + MasterLeague, I won't buy the game. It's going to have to be shocking, worlds apart from what we have now. Otherwise I will pirate the game and I have no problem saying it, since they don't deserve my money anymore.

They can go back to downgrade the PC version for all I care.

Steam has a nice refund system that I have been using. It might be handy when PES 2019 comes out.

 

[Chuny]

You really could have a problem saying You will pirate the game,if You really want to walk the plank here.
And thats not just me, its all mods & admin at Evo -Web.

I'm not saying I will promote piracy or even say it when (and if) I do it. I'm just saying it now mate.
I don't think you can ban me ahead of time just for saying I might do something. Afterall... I may not even have to (and believe me when I say I really hope I don't have to feel that way when PES 2019 hits the market).
I'm not disrespecting anybody or breaking any rules.

 

[Lami]

I'm not saying I will promote piracy or even say it when (and if) I do it. I'm just saying it now mate.
I don't think you can ban me ahead of time just for saying I might do something. Afterall... I may not even have to (and believe me when I say I really hope I don't have to feel that way when PES 2019 hits the market).
I'm not disrespecting anybody or breaking any rules.

We just don't promote that stuff or hint at them here mate.

 

[Chuny]

We just don't promote that stuff or hint at them here mate.

I know. Don't worry, I love Evo-Web too much to do something stupid deliberately and get banned. I was just saying, in other words that they would definitely lose me both as a fan and also as a buyer.

 

[gerd]

In PES 2018, among with other issues, you can only foul you opponent with double tap on X or slide tackles, wich is rificulous.

That is not true at all, really, really not...
We must criticize the game, but please don't invent things that aren't true at all.
I get regular fouls by simply using x (even a penalty and this coïncidentally in the last match i played), i almost never use the tackles because i love Italian football and good Italian defenders almost never tackle (not that i'm good at defending in PES, i'm not good at all).

 

[gerd]

Probably working on removing them


If he's actually in Tokyo now with the devs 24/7 and the next game turns out the same philosophy of the last few games then I'll have lost all hope in him. This is his chance to prove we're on the same page.

Of course I'm assuming he has influence on the game, which he should at this point.

It is far too easy to blame Adam Bhatti for everything that is wrong with the game. The guy does not deserve this, Lami.