robbieryan
I dream of occasional fanzine mentions
Sadly Matt has attepted to give this feedback direct to Konami before and just gets fobbed off
PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ThomasGOAL
- Start date
- Staff
- #10,502
And others have been unfollowed by Adam on Twitter (i.e. @B-Man) for saying very similar things in a respectful tone, praising the good bits and asking questions about the less enjoyable/authentic bits.
I'm still pretty shellshocked by that - the guy attended pre-release play events to give feedback etc. and he's a well-loved member of the community. But it's clear that if it isn't praise, they just don't want to hear it. Hence their love of that "PES casuals" post.
Ameppe
International
- 23 December 2007
- SSC Napoli
I made what i could. Pointed it out to @officialpes. That's the best way to give feednack. At least they don't block users if you just give feedback.
Bhatti is so thin skinned you have to praise the game before even insinuating it has some issues to fix. You just can't be honest with him.
Bhatti is so thin skinned you have to praise the game before even insinuating it has some issues to fix. You just can't be honest with him.
classic clubs are ready now
Installed yesterday. Awesome!!! Thanks!!!
Chuny
-
- 11 December 2007
Yep. Shocking.
What's even more shocking though, is that I've raised the level of aggresion of my Tweets to both Adam and Officialpes (even called Adam a bitch for doing that to BMan and Matt, just like that) and I didn't get block.
Really nice read Matt. I agree with everything you said.
Especially on the lack of player identity. Every time I'm chased deep into the opponent's half by an opposition striker, I'm just left wondering would said player would be doing this in real life.
Every match they're a well oiled machine.
Sidenote: I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but can we have actual wingbacks?
I'm tired of seeking Hazard, Sane, Ozil etc essentially being their sides' 'wingbacks' because this game only uses wide mids.
manmachine
Premier League
- 22 June 2008
Great article indeed. I hate to admit that i'm a pessimist though. I don't believe konami is ignorant about all this. They know what the ML guys want. And they know what the 'e-sports' guys want (no stats influence, pure gamepad "skillz"), and they've made their choice. It's all about the game mode with the microtransactions. In Metal Gear Survive they included a $10 microtransaction to unlock a second save slot. Let that sink in for a moment.
Bad scripting is really an issue too. And it's not just pes, fifa's adaptive difficulty is what ultimately ended my fun with fifa 16 as well.
Anyway once the hype train gets going for the next releases, I know what's the single thing I will be asking about. Do stats matter and does Wigan play like Barca. The football game that gets this right *may* get my money, no loyalties to anyone. And if it means sticking to an older title to get my fix, so be it.
Bad scripting is really an issue too. And it's not just pes, fifa's adaptive difficulty is what ultimately ended my fun with fifa 16 as well.
Anyway once the hype train gets going for the next releases, I know what's the single thing I will be asking about. Do stats matter and does Wigan play like Barca. The football game that gets this right *may* get my money, no loyalties to anyone. And if it means sticking to an older title to get my fix, so be it.
Marlon Anthony
Purist
Well said Manmachine. I really laughed at "Gamepad Skillz." Also the MGS 2nd Save slot almost sounds like some kind of gaming satire, or at least that's all i wish it was.
Madmac79
International
- 11 September 2006
I think too Matt's article is truly spot on. Detailed, exhaustive and really well written, it practically nails with surgical precision everything wrong with this chapter and Konami's priorities in the making of Pes 2018.
Will he be listened, now? I don't believe it for half a second, honestly, and I'm sure Matt himself is conscious of it too. As manmachine said above, I think they already knew how to make "that" kind of soccer game if they wanted to, on the contrary it seems the My Club blank model is the most profitable one, so here we go with that one. But at the very least, now they'll have no excuse of only having rude and generic critics threw at them (like it would make a difference in their politics
).
Will he be listened, now? I don't believe it for half a second, honestly, and I'm sure Matt himself is conscious of it too. As manmachine said above, I think they already knew how to make "that" kind of soccer game if they wanted to, on the contrary it seems the My Club blank model is the most profitable one, so here we go with that one. But at the very least, now they'll have no excuse of only having rude and generic critics threw at them (like it would make a difference in their politics
).
Paynekiller
Premier League
- 14 June 2015
incas36
International
- 4 November 2015
I think that a lot of strange behaviour of CPU is related to Team Spirit. If you play an exhibition match the game is by faaar more enjoyable and less of scripts a/o strange CPU game, IMHO. This does not mean, however, that i fully agree with Matt's article.
robbieryan
I dream of occasional fanzine mentions
To be honest. I'm not sure Adam really read the article by Alan, which probably makes it worse but I'm sure if he had read it first he wouldn't have posted what he did.
Amen to that. I'm only loyal to my entertainment.
Also any idea what the new patch does? It's a pretty small one
saintric
Premier League
- 9 October 2007
Great article by Matt pretty much my point of view too and I won't mention names but some konami employees on social media really seem to have a childish attitude to criticism no matter how constructive it is
saintric
Premier League
- 9 October 2007
Its just to fix edit mode bug where players losed edited face data and look identical
- Staff
- #10,516
Marlon Anthony
Purist
Episode 4 is up!
We visit the final group of Euro 2004 and it's aptly named "The Group of Death." World Cup finalists Germany tackle newcomers Latvia while Holland take on The Czech Republic.
We visit the final group of Euro 2004 and it's aptly named "The Group of Death." World Cup finalists Germany tackle newcomers Latvia while Holland take on The Czech Republic.
gerd
Retired Footballer
To be honest i'm not so sure anymore about B-Man and his friends.
Asked him a couple of questions, but he never reacted...i heard their podcast were they explained why they stop bothering about PES, sounds very Bhatti-like to me.
What intrigues me most is that they were very postive after having played an early build (E3??, not sure anymore) and then they really seemd to hate the retail version. They never explained what happened there (how big the difference was). IMO they leth their listeners down there...
I can understand that they wanted to quit, but the podcast where they 'explained' the reason why, was very bad...no real explanation...
robbieryan
I dream of occasional fanzine mentions
I thought they explained it well, to be honest
Chuny
-
- 11 December 2007
Yes, they did explain what happened from the first build they played until retail version.
Game became a lot faster, ball shielding had been toned down, the game became less challenging. Among other things.
Hey Gerd,
Was skimming through PES forums as I do like to see what the talk is from time to time even though I've been trying to just enjoy my gaming now and not be so invested. It's been tough but after 10 years of waiting I just feel like I and the Footy United guys really have nothing left to add to the discussion or feedback. Especially the last few years I feel like I've been beating a dead horse talking about the same things fans would like to see improved over and over again and yet each year its the same issues over and over again.
Sorry if you think I didn't respond to your questions I can't remember it's been awhile. But feel free to fire away on here or on twitter or shoot me DMs I'd be happy to discuss anything privately or publicly with you.
If you didn't think we gave you a respectable answer on our podcasts when the game was released I'd be happy to make a few points. Really for the footy united guys it just came down to history repeating itself as I said above and we feel we we really have nothing left to offer the community because we end up talking about the same stuff and its tiresome to talk about as I'm sure listeners find it tiresome to hear.
I, Jose, Nestor --we all played the game multiplayer at E3. It felt really good. So many risk reward elements from dibbling to defending. Players had weight. There was proper acceleration depending on the player. Pressing was risk reward. We had talked about relearning how to defend which coincidently is a lot like FIFA's defending where you are pretty much running the show and not relying on A.I. assistance. The individuality felt really good minus the passing. The passing was more free on PA1, still coulda been more free but it was better than 2017, and ball physics were really good at E3 but there was no real individuality in passing except visually with the back spin on the ball from the weighted pass card. Speaking of individuality a lot of bigger defenders were slower and took them half a second longer to get the ball out of their feet which when pressing them re-created that real life tension where you say to yourself "don't mess with the ball at the back!" Konami did a good job of recreating that. Even the producer there commented that I brought up the improvements in pressing as he worked really hard on it but then the game got released and it was a lot like 2017. Also the pace was outstanding. All the space you saw in videos that Matt was talking about in E3 videos, when you were playing, you didn't really notice it in all honesty because even though it looked like a lot of space on the videos you could close that space down quick if that makes sense. The proper turning and acceleration and player weight slowed the game down and allowed you to close that space down faster. Also the attack/defense transitions were much much more organic and teams didn't rush back into defense when they lost the ball. Players moved about the pitch organically as well they didn't seem structured in the formation like it has been the past few years. The biggest thing at E3 needing improvement was shooting. It wasn't terrible but wasn't good either nowhere near the shooting variety and satisfaction FIFA offers.
I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of stuff but anyway then the beta came out and while Jose had noticed animations were missing to speed up response times overall I enjoyed the beta because it still contained a lot of the risk reward elements and you could beat your opponent by just outfootying them. I got really good at defending because you had to defend space not the man like we have been conditioned by konami for so many years to just hold X and run at the guy with the ball. But thats not what defending is like in real life its about closing down space and passing lanes so I could handle the sprint whores and the through ball whores. I had a lot of fun with multiplayer beta.
Then the demo hit which was a big wtf happened? Same with the final game. So many of those risk reward elements were gone all of a sudden. A lot of things about the game reverted back to 2017 standards. I had people blowing up my twitter timeline like "B, wheres this NEW game you were talking about it feels like PES 2017.5?" and they were right. It did feel like PES 2017.5 and I can 120% tell you all the version we played at E3 for 3 straight days 8+ hours a day was vastly different than the version everyone got on release day. I swear by it.
I saw the feedback docs Asim sent to Japan. Then I see what changed or has been implemented instead and clearly they gave no fucks about his docs.
So 3-4 years where early code has been better than the final game its gotten to the point where Im just dejected with PES. I have PES apathy which is worst than being angry or sad. Adam and I hung out every night at E3. He's a great guy we talked about PES and life and I guess he wasn't happy with my reaction to the game or didn't want to see my negativity on his Twitter feed but he unfollowed. Is what it is.
I have been playing a lot of seasons in FIFA 18 I am one win away from Division 1. I don't think FIFA 18 is a great game at all, it would not make a top 10 list thats for sure and it has issues with grounded ball physics and twitchy dribbling animations among other things but for me personally, it atleast gets the basics right. Shooting is enjoyable. Theres risk reward in defending and pressing. I don't play the A.I and I don't play FUT but I get my fix in on seasons and for the most part I've had a blast beating all the Barcas and Madrids by just playing footy and enjoying my skills.
I said this on Hulkamania's Contextual Podcast a little while back...
The 3 things that brought me to PES was A.I., Individuality and Tactics. Not faces, boots, animations, balls, edit mode etc. That stuff was all extra goodies but those were the 3 main things.
PES 2018 A.I. is the worst PES A.I. I can ever remember. I haven't really played FIFA 18's A.I. (though I hear it sucks too) so if both games' A.I. suck then they break even.
The individuality in both games now is virtually identical. Neither games passing stats matter so there is no passing individuality. Both games have the same thing tall slower players small shiftier players etc. The individuality is as close as its ever been. I prefer PES dribbling overall and PES has more player ID specific animations than FIFA but the over individuality substance, IMO, is now virtually the same so that breaks even.
Lastly the tactics. There is a lot of FIFA's stuff I like but I hate how I can't change formations on the fly and theres a lot of PES stuff I like but I hate how limiting the tactical system is and how rigid in strategy teams become. Great concept poor execution. So IMO both games have pros and cons to the tactical systems so overall it breaks even.
So the three main things that always brought me to PES over FIFA is now on par with FIFA IMO. However, FIFA has the better overall package, better online stability, better shooting, basic fundamentals done properly, better modes etc. (just started a pro clubs team and I think its hands down best mode ever invented in a footy game if you play with a bunch of friends who want to play like a real team)
For me, I'll always be a diehard PES/Winning Eleven fan at heart. Nothing will ever replace the nostalgia those older games gave me but I owe Konami nothing. They are the ones that owe the longtime fans a great game who stuck by the series through its dark years but they rather go all in on the micro transactions and my club because its all about maxing revenue now.
I am going to play what I enjoy what gives me my footy fix and hope every does the same whether its PES, FIFA or different footy game or an older footy game. Just enjoy your footy gaming time. None of us fans of football gaming owe a company ANYTHING
smooches
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
I listened to all the podcast. It was pretty clear to me.
Gerd you are getting old and senil.
Gerd you are getting old and senil.
Nice to see Rick James in the game.
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
gerd
Retired Footballer
Thanks for that reply, B-Man. I should apologize: i'm sorry (but it was my honest opinion).
Adam's reaction is strange, because if what you write is true (and why wouldn't it?) then you are more an ally than an enemy.
It must be frustrating working for Konami.
I wonder why they are doing this. The Obvious answer is to sell more copies. But it is very strange to have a completely different version at E3 and then downgrading it in the months after that. Would they by so cynical to do this on purpose: inviting hardcore fans (= sim fans) to make good publicity among the old fans and then completely overhaul the game. If this is the case, then they are a disgrace and if you guys have that feeling, then i can completely sympathize with you.
Adam's reaction is strange, because if what you write is true (and why wouldn't it?) then you are more an ally than an enemy.
It must be frustrating working for Konami.
I wonder why they are doing this. The Obvious answer is to sell more copies. But it is very strange to have a completely different version at E3 and then downgrading it in the months after that. Would they by so cynical to do this on purpose: inviting hardcore fans (= sim fans) to make good publicity among the old fans and then completely overhaul the game. If this is the case, then they are a disgrace and if you guys have that feeling, then i can completely sympathize with you.
This is absurd really. Unacceptable behavior.
And he wants me to believe we're on the same page and want the same things...
Same here. So you all know not to get mad at me for being a pessimist this time like last year.
Preach.
Dennis_87
Physics n' Animations Fan
- 27 September 2017
It's true that for the last couple of years the retail version ends up being worse than early builds.At least for people who like a more sim experience.I'm pretty sure by now that they're doing this on purpose because if it's happened 3-4 times already it's not a coincidence any more.
They invite experienced sim loving members on their early shows and show them a gameplay that they will like and praise and will spread the word out that the game is very good to gain good publicity and hype the audience.
And then with the retail version the bullshit starts again so they can win the clueless online audience who don't know shit about how real football works and just wanna have some ''fun''.They remove and butcher animations so they can have ridiculous response times again(because clueless people will start complaining about delay and they don't understand that some little amount of time must pass until a player passes or shoots the ball or dribbles,but they want all these to be happening immediatelly in flash times and they don't give a fuck if it looks robotic and fake.)
They speed up the game again every time and in general making it more arcady than the early builds or demo versions.
This bullshit has to stop.There are many many people who would like a proper sim game.Maybe they don't know that and they think that all the people want fast arcady ''fun'' gameplay.Well they have to release a proper sim game for once and maybe they will be surprised in a good way,both in terms of critics and sales.But they have to try and do this,otherwise they won't know.
They tried to go to a more sim route with Pes 2014 but most people start bashing them so now maybe they think that people don't want a sim route.But the thing was that it had many good sim elements but it was also an unfinished game that they had to take care more in general before release it.So maybe they misunderstood the message that people don't want sim and they have to bring again such a game but polished and finished this time and then see the reactions.
I read here that they've put a microtransaction for Metal Gear Survive(a fucking joke of a game honestly and it's just sad how this series ended up) to pay 10$ just to unlock a second save slot.That's really fucking pathetic and it just shows their mentality and priorities for the time.They really have to stop being such wankers because eventually everyone will abandon them in the end,even people who still follow them until now.
We all just want a proper sim football game.Is this so much to ask?Just try it for once Konami and see how it goes.
Stop changing the game every fucking year and making it arcady again to please the online people in the retail version.I'm pretty sure there are also many many people who don't want an online ping pong fest,so what about them?
I'm still playing some Pes 2018 for the time because there isn't something better for my likings for now but i'm aware of it's problems and there are many unfortunatelly.They really have to do much better for next version and improve many things and in general take a more sim route again but this time really nail it and not introduce an unfinished game.Just try it Konami.Just fucking try it.Enough with the same bullshit every year.
They invite experienced sim loving members on their early shows and show them a gameplay that they will like and praise and will spread the word out that the game is very good to gain good publicity and hype the audience.
And then with the retail version the bullshit starts again so they can win the clueless online audience who don't know shit about how real football works and just wanna have some ''fun''.They remove and butcher animations so they can have ridiculous response times again(because clueless people will start complaining about delay and they don't understand that some little amount of time must pass until a player passes or shoots the ball or dribbles,but they want all these to be happening immediatelly in flash times and they don't give a fuck if it looks robotic and fake.)
They speed up the game again every time and in general making it more arcady than the early builds or demo versions.
This bullshit has to stop.There are many many people who would like a proper sim game.Maybe they don't know that and they think that all the people want fast arcady ''fun'' gameplay.Well they have to release a proper sim game for once and maybe they will be surprised in a good way,both in terms of critics and sales.But they have to try and do this,otherwise they won't know.
They tried to go to a more sim route with Pes 2014 but most people start bashing them so now maybe they think that people don't want a sim route.But the thing was that it had many good sim elements but it was also an unfinished game that they had to take care more in general before release it.So maybe they misunderstood the message that people don't want sim and they have to bring again such a game but polished and finished this time and then see the reactions.
I read here that they've put a microtransaction for Metal Gear Survive(a fucking joke of a game honestly and it's just sad how this series ended up) to pay 10$ just to unlock a second save slot.That's really fucking pathetic and it just shows their mentality and priorities for the time.They really have to stop being such wankers because eventually everyone will abandon them in the end,even people who still follow them until now.
We all just want a proper sim football game.Is this so much to ask?Just try it for once Konami and see how it goes.
Stop changing the game every fucking year and making it arcady again to please the online people in the retail version.I'm pretty sure there are also many many people who don't want an online ping pong fest,so what about them?
I'm still playing some Pes 2018 for the time because there isn't something better for my likings for now but i'm aware of it's problems and there are many unfortunatelly.They really have to do much better for next version and improve many things and in general take a more sim route again but this time really nail it and not introduce an unfinished game.Just try it Konami.Just fucking try it.Enough with the same bullshit every year.
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martyl2
Championship
- 27 February 2010
Lol don't see how anyone associated with PES can be perceived as an "enemy" or indeed "ally"
We all love football games, differences in opinion or perception really should not amount to constituting someone as "allies" or indeed "enemies"
Gunslinger
Premier League
- 5 September 2016
Chuny
-
- 11 December 2007
It's a double-edged sword. If we all come together and stop buying the game (even if that was feasible or realistically possible at all) then PES would probably disappear in no time. But if we keep buying their half-baked games, then they'll keep going the MyClub route, which as we've come to understand, it leads us to a very different destination than the 'football sim approach' route.
I know some of you might say "try the demos and if you don't like it, then don't buy it" and that's probably true. But some of us always fall for the same trap, thinking "the demo had all these flaws and issues but hey they must have fixed all of them for retail version so let's buy it" and I'm definitely one of those. So dumb and naive.
I know some of you might say "try the demos and if you don't like it, then don't buy it" and that's probably true. But some of us always fall for the same trap, thinking "the demo had all these flaws and issues but hey they must have fixed all of them for retail version so let's buy it" and I'm definitely one of those. So dumb and naive.