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PES 2017 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ThomasGOAL
- Start date
Can you give specific details for some of the prem teams pls?
For example i set both man u and west ham to all out defence - im also using klashman tactics along with 5 second fix..both played superbly for me but i want to make sure all teams dont play alike.
For west ham i had central target set to ss if they would launch the ball to andy carroll more but that didnt happen however he was in the game loads.
Im trying to establish which teams should be set to all out attack - orang/orange and whats the difference between that and all out defense given they are both the same colour..
it would be great if someone could provide a simple list
kilay
International
- 11 November 2016
oK Guys but in ML which tactics the managers keep when moving on others teams? The simple tactics?
Anyone tested it?
Anyone tested it?
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
Thanks, B, it definitely sucks to have to go this far, and find something so "simple".
I'm still trying to get the CPU to play with more real patience..vs..controlled chaos. It's very much a sprint versus actual subtle tactics (which is what makes the best tactics, right? The ones that are subtle and can only be noticed in replay), so that's a bit disheartening.
I have been deep into PES 2015 today, and am in awe of the player positioning. I didn't give the game a real go until today, it's quite good, really confused on what happened in PES 16, resulting in what PES 17 is now...
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So I've gone back to PES 2017 after enjoying it from day one and then getting fed up with the update screwing up my option file (on which I spend about two weeks by myself, instead of waiting for decent, final patches from the web) which made me sell it. That was back in november. Now I got it back again (PSN Sale), found some good patches and started ML on Superstar.
So basically all my previous experience was with v.1.00 (before any updates), now we've got 1.04 and my question is: what was definitely and noticeably changed gameplay wise over the course of those few months? While the game feels generally the same some stuff seems a bit off, mainly the long shots, or shooting (and goalkeepers) in general. I find it very hard to score anything from outside the box - it's always just wide or the GK (regardless of stats) saves or even catches a torpedo ball in mid-air - almost reminds me of PES 14 before it was patched out. Then again I see people post some long shot replays on YT fairly recently so apparently it's doable but so far I'm out of luck, the best I've got were 2 goals from 16 meters away. It bothers me as I remember that before the updates the shooting felt really good and balanced in all aspects and it was very close to that "anything can happen" feeling which seems to have gone.
For the record I'm talking about basic shooting, but after playing a bit with various settings in training mode I'm conviced it applies to shooting in general, manual or basic.
So basically all my previous experience was with v.1.00 (before any updates), now we've got 1.04 and my question is: what was definitely and noticeably changed gameplay wise over the course of those few months? While the game feels generally the same some stuff seems a bit off, mainly the long shots, or shooting (and goalkeepers) in general. I find it very hard to score anything from outside the box - it's always just wide or the GK (regardless of stats) saves or even catches a torpedo ball in mid-air - almost reminds me of PES 14 before it was patched out. Then again I see people post some long shot replays on YT fairly recently so apparently it's doable but so far I'm out of luck, the best I've got were 2 goals from 16 meters away. It bothers me as I remember that before the updates the shooting felt really good and balanced in all aspects and it was very close to that "anything can happen" feeling which seems to have gone.
For the record I'm talking about basic shooting, but after playing a bit with various settings in training mode I'm conviced it applies to shooting in general, manual or basic.
I find the manual override works best for long shots - more freedom and ive scored some crackers, i suggest trying matts latest tactic finding it addresses the anything can happen feeling to a degree because it tightens the game up, it was just too open using default settings with too much space..i agree with the goalies - sometimes the floating and catching looks silly, i think due to shot power they have OP the keepers to compensate. The game just needs more shot animation and more keeper animations to bring more variation
Edmundo 22
League 1
- 11 November 2003
It's nice to see users on the website delving deeper into the game. ie. how ATT/DEF levels affect the gameplay.
I leanrt (and I assume many others who try to learn thegame) that a long a time ago. There is also much more to learn, the japenese developers are the best in my book.
I leanrt (and I assume many others who try to learn thegame) that a long a time ago. There is also much more to learn, the japenese developers are the best in my book.
Edmundo 22
League 1
- 11 November 2003
Happens all the time in world class futebol. It's called being physical.
Refs in my games are 99% fine. Can't speak for others as their playstyle will affect what happens on the pitch.
For me, Im fine with the refs.
My 2 cents.
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They are really good but why not release it set up properly in the firstly place..it's took Matt and the like nearly 8 months out to sort tactics and now how long for the average user who gets to know about it to implement..for me this is why the franchise doesn't sell nearly anywhere like fifa when in fact this year and next it could outsell it if it was advertised properly and the possibilities implemented on release
I guess konami doesn't even know how to release the games full potential, they always claim the teams/players id and how they play like real life. But they don't even set any cb to join the corner kick in default LMAO.
Not to mention they never use fluid formation well, positionings of players are almost the same in kickoff, in possession and out of possession
Glad that there are some tactics experts from our community and they know much better how to make good use of fluid formation and they just bring the gameplay to next level
I recommend to read this thread
https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/p...er-ability-and-tactical-advice-for-cpu.77159/
its just 1000x better than konami articles and reviews
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
Here's something I wanted to share. Orange/Orange, but with a kicker called the Offside Trap. I learned about the Offside Trap in playing PES 2015. In PES 15, it allowed the CPU to stop spamming through balls against me. Notice how much quicker the defensive line (including FBs) to step up, and even more so, the entire shape of the defense traps the forwards. I have never had as much difficulty moving the ball as I did in this match, which is a very good sign.
Edit: I also think with the offside trap, the tight marking may be overkill, but may just apply to ORANGE defense.
Editx2:
Here is the Offside Trap on with Green/Green and the All-Out Defense defensive instruction. I personally dislike the All-Out Defense instruction, but this isn't too bad of shape:
Edit: I also think with the offside trap, the tight marking may be overkill, but may just apply to ORANGE defense.
Editx2:
Here is the Offside Trap on with Green/Green and the All-Out Defense defensive instruction. I personally dislike the All-Out Defense instruction, but this isn't too bad of shape:
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saintric
Premier League
- 9 October 2007
I think im looking for the same thing you are vs the CPU more resistance moving the ball around i want them to harass and make me really think to find gaps (I know it will never be perfect) you can get some games like that in ML on superstar but then some games the CPU are 'switched off' like its playing on beginner level
one thing I have noticed is I have been playing my original ML save from day 1 and no other modes right until this week when I decided on a new option file and the gameplay seems better? seeing more variety and the cpu seem to hit the post and bar a lot more than in my ML save pretty sure its not placebo as i played well over 300 ML games and straight away with a fresh install and latest live update its better
one thing I have noticed is I have been playing my original ML save from day 1 and no other modes right until this week when I decided on a new option file and the gameplay seems better? seeing more variety and the cpu seem to hit the post and bar a lot more than in my ML save pretty sure its not placebo as i played well over 300 ML games and straight away with a fresh install and latest live update its better
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
Yes, good points. It's so important to feel a resistance. That starts with the all-out defense preset tactic being adjusted. Not every team uses it as literal as KONAMI builds it, but I believe it is one of the reasons we see these end-to-end matches.
Me, personally, I am still wanting the CPU to pass the ball around the back because they want to, not because they are forced to, if that makes sense. In PES 2015 it's nice to be able to breathe once in a while. It may be a bit too much at times, but it's a breath of fresh air compared to the manic PES 17.
See here with PES 15, using the offside trap:
Matt just tried your simple settings against Liverpool..sethe false 9 before switching to simple then possession game orange/blue ..it was geniunely like how liverpool play..they just swarmed me over the pitch..finished 0-0 but it was difficult on PA1 to create chances due to having no time...class mate..I'm stuaird off twitter too who was asking about your video so thanks again
Can we start populating findings for teams using matts simple tactic fix ..
For example
Liverpool - gen gen press -false 9
Arsenal - all out attack tika taka (not tried this tet)
Would be good to build the premier league
Edited liverpool tactic uses the genpress option in advanced tactics so they press all over the pitch
For example
Liverpool - gen gen press -false 9
Arsenal - all out attack tika taka (not tried this tet)
Would be good to build the premier league
Edited liverpool tactic uses the genpress option in advanced tactics so they press all over the pitch
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zeemeister
foxy engine
The problem with this is that it won't take home and away into consideration.
Would it so hard to program the AI that be inconsistent in terms of its own form. So I know arsenal on the day could beat me but in their current form they are struggling at home. I wish the device team could look at things like this. It will bring so much longevity to the game.
god84
League 1
BUT that would kind of be scripting....
That could be managed through the stats if done properly. Liverpool always play the same way with high press some games they just don't do it very well. For me I want to see the AI playing how the real life counter parts play instead of this defence to forwards ball that is always on. This tactic for Liverpool stopped that option almost immediately and it felt as though I was playing against Liverpool (on one of their good days)
- Staff
- #11,809
This debate reminds me of how difficult a dev's job is (not that I disagree with the idea that the AI needs to be less consistent)...
Every time I play a team in PES, I know what it's going to be like before it's started. Managers play set formations and that's it, there's no "will switch formation dependent on injuries to important players" logic, there's no "will start with a very defensive formation against a vastly superior / on-form team" logic, there's not even a "attack at home, defend away" logic.
But say FIFA adds all that, and suddenly you play Man United and they aren't playing like Man United because of some factor you can't see. If they're playing away (so they're cautious), if they've got a few injuries and if you're on form, you win 3-0 as Hull and you say "this game's ridiculous, how did that happen".
So you then play PES, and you say "I just got beat 3-0 by Man United, this is way more realistic", and so you feel an affinity for PES. Then, after a couple of seasons, you realise that the way these teams play never really changes, they don't change formations (because they very rarely change managers), they don't suffer injuries, and it all feels a bit false.
But is it better to always be facing the "purest" version of a team, therefore the closest to actual (rather than simulated) reality? You could easily describe either of those approaches as the best or most sensible one for a game. But in reality, they're just that - different approaches.
Even the mad attack/defend nature of PES, where it's manically back-and-forth with little build-up - at the end of a match, I find the stats are a lot closer to a real 90 minutes. 9-10 shots each, as opposed to 2 shots each in the other game.
When you're compressing 90 minutes into 14-20 minutes, you've got to decide whether you're going to simulate the highlights, or a ~30 minute period (which means a slower game with enough "midfield battle" to suck all of the joy out of football).
Every decision after that has to be governed by that starting block - e.g. PES has those super-accurate passes to achieve those end-of-game figures.
They have a really tough job, and I'm starting to understand how one man's feedback is another man's terrible idea...
Every time I play a team in PES, I know what it's going to be like before it's started. Managers play set formations and that's it, there's no "will switch formation dependent on injuries to important players" logic, there's no "will start with a very defensive formation against a vastly superior / on-form team" logic, there's not even a "attack at home, defend away" logic.
But say FIFA adds all that, and suddenly you play Man United and they aren't playing like Man United because of some factor you can't see. If they're playing away (so they're cautious), if they've got a few injuries and if you're on form, you win 3-0 as Hull and you say "this game's ridiculous, how did that happen".
So you then play PES, and you say "I just got beat 3-0 by Man United, this is way more realistic", and so you feel an affinity for PES. Then, after a couple of seasons, you realise that the way these teams play never really changes, they don't change formations (because they very rarely change managers), they don't suffer injuries, and it all feels a bit false.
But is it better to always be facing the "purest" version of a team, therefore the closest to actual (rather than simulated) reality? You could easily describe either of those approaches as the best or most sensible one for a game. But in reality, they're just that - different approaches.
Even the mad attack/defend nature of PES, where it's manically back-and-forth with little build-up - at the end of a match, I find the stats are a lot closer to a real 90 minutes. 9-10 shots each, as opposed to 2 shots each in the other game.
When you're compressing 90 minutes into 14-20 minutes, you've got to decide whether you're going to simulate the highlights, or a ~30 minute period (which means a slower game with enough "midfield battle" to suck all of the joy out of football).
Every decision after that has to be governed by that starting block - e.g. PES has those super-accurate passes to achieve those end-of-game figures.
They have a really tough job, and I'm starting to understand how one man's feedback is another man's terrible idea...
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Good post Chris.
I have a similar opinion about the dreaded scripting.
As long as the AI in football games or games in general can be rudimentary at most, implementing mechanics such as scripting in PES is, on balance, a good idea. Why? I played enough footy games in my time (before we were subjected to current PES-FIFA two party system) that were enjoyable and promising but had one critical issue, at least from the point of view of a single-player oriented chap - dreadful offensive AI. It was hard to win, challenging to draw and... challenging to lose. The venerable Football Kingdom, as I remember it, had this problem as well and so did many other footie games, including older FIFA games, before they ventured into the "unbalanced in favor of CPU" direction.
PES series avoided this by having a well balanced (in comparison to other titles) gameplay and by implementing something that helped the AI remain challenging and to provide something that breaks the monotony of a fully predictible game flow, even if it turns out obnoxious and unfair. In a way, scripting also may give a (admittedly fake) sense of momentum, or giving a match some sort of a scenario.
In the end, it's all about the AI catching up to the player - sometimes it scores in a legit way, sometimes you think it didn't but it actually did and it was you who made some fatal mistakes, and sometimes it blatantly cheats. Any experienced PES player can tell a goal is going to happen many seconds before it. And really, I learned to live with this and to a degree, appreciate it, because I'll rather have a game were AI is able to score and provide a challenge than AI that always plays by the rules, is not very good at it and, even on highest difficulty settings, turns into a whipping boy after just a few days of playing.
Then again, I believe that every match is winnable and no matter how hard the CPU tries to cheat it's always possible to outdo it, it may just be extra hard. I know people have posted before about trying to redo a match 25 times and only managing to win once, which may be a proof that some games are just meant to be impossible. Than again, some folks out there were able to go full seasons without conceding a win on Superstar, claiming that PES against AI is a waste of time because there is no challenge.
Scripting may be infuriating at times, but I still prefer it to 95% passing accuracy AI teams have in FIFA, regardless of team level. An example of an unbalanced part of game that affects almost every match, rather than every few of them.
As long as the AI in football games or games in general can be rudimentary at most, implementing mechanics such as scripting in PES is, on balance, a good idea. Why? I played enough footy games in my time (before we were subjected to current PES-FIFA two party system) that were enjoyable and promising but had one critical issue, at least from the point of view of a single-player oriented chap - dreadful offensive AI. It was hard to win, challenging to draw and... challenging to lose. The venerable Football Kingdom, as I remember it, had this problem as well and so did many other footie games, including older FIFA games, before they ventured into the "unbalanced in favor of CPU" direction.
PES series avoided this by having a well balanced (in comparison to other titles) gameplay and by implementing something that helped the AI remain challenging and to provide something that breaks the monotony of a fully predictible game flow, even if it turns out obnoxious and unfair. In a way, scripting also may give a (admittedly fake) sense of momentum, or giving a match some sort of a scenario.
In the end, it's all about the AI catching up to the player - sometimes it scores in a legit way, sometimes you think it didn't but it actually did and it was you who made some fatal mistakes, and sometimes it blatantly cheats. Any experienced PES player can tell a goal is going to happen many seconds before it. And really, I learned to live with this and to a degree, appreciate it, because I'll rather have a game were AI is able to score and provide a challenge than AI that always plays by the rules, is not very good at it and, even on highest difficulty settings, turns into a whipping boy after just a few days of playing.
Then again, I believe that every match is winnable and no matter how hard the CPU tries to cheat it's always possible to outdo it, it may just be extra hard. I know people have posted before about trying to redo a match 25 times and only managing to win once, which may be a proof that some games are just meant to be impossible. Than again, some folks out there were able to go full seasons without conceding a win on Superstar, claiming that PES against AI is a waste of time because there is no challenge.
Scripting may be infuriating at times, but I still prefer it to 95% passing accuracy AI teams have in FIFA, regardless of team level. An example of an unbalanced part of game that affects almost every match, rather than every few of them.
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Great post except that I don't believe that every match is winnable . ..by repeating it until the result suits you . .. .probably.
saintric
Premier League
- 9 October 2007
im not starting a bash fifa parade but PES in so much better vs the AI in ML mode compared to FIFA the only problem is its inconsistency and the fact it goes from one end to the spectrum to the other in regards to difficulty
every game should offer some difficulty even if the opposition is weak they should defend for their lives not let you pass it and basically walk past them its a shame cos some games in ML bring you back to the old pes where you dont want the match to end because its hit a sweet spot
every game should offer some difficulty even if the opposition is weak they should defend for their lives not let you pass it and basically walk past them its a shame cos some games in ML bring you back to the old pes where you dont want the match to end because its hit a sweet spot
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
I'm not even about winning v losing, or even drawing. I'm more so concerned with PES 17 and the incredibly, loud and not subtle at all, way of the CPU's attack. It's manic, it's end to end, it's not strategic, it's not about breaking you down, it's about wearing you out.
I've gone over to PES 15 and dealing with some of it's issues, but at least I know it's going to be a patient match, one where I can tell the animations of the CPU players are "thinking" on what they are trying to accomplish - not mindless attacks as in PES 17.
Even with my findings of the ATT/DEF, there is no balance. KONAMI placed too much emphasis on tactics, which results in, ironically, zero strategy. It's a shame because the ball physics are fantastic, and the player models (no more baggy shorts) are a step up from previous years. I just hope they lower the tactics effectiveness by about 50% threshold and mix up the shooting variations in PES 2018.
I've gone over to PES 15 and dealing with some of it's issues, but at least I know it's going to be a patient match, one where I can tell the animations of the CPU players are "thinking" on what they are trying to accomplish - not mindless attacks as in PES 17.
Even with my findings of the ATT/DEF, there is no balance. KONAMI placed too much emphasis on tactics, which results in, ironically, zero strategy. It's a shame because the ball physics are fantastic, and the player models (no more baggy shorts) are a step up from previous years. I just hope they lower the tactics effectiveness by about 50% threshold and mix up the shooting variations in PES 2018.
Edmundo 22
League 1
- 11 November 2003
Not for me, different teams play differently , it is quite obvious when playing a league. I can tell Konami have made a big effort for Pes 2017 to give teams their own strategic way to play, it is very noticeable to me. Sure the game mirrors real life top class futebol that it is not sunday league where you have all the time in the world, it is fast high pressure stuff and yes the teams can put their foot down. I like it. It is still possible for the user to influence this with the way they play. ie. slowing the game down.
Yes att/def levels can have a big impact, but they can also be 'bypassed'/have less of an effect with good play on the pitch from my experience (however, if you have att levels high expect to be exposed at the back, just like real futebol).
Enjoy !
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
Agree to disagree. Actually, I will agree, they make teams play differently, but that doesn't make it any less manic or chaotic. Yes, KONAMI have done great at giving teams their own strategy. The problem is they are thinking like a computer and not like a player, or a team for that matter. A team is made up of its own dynamics on who does their job and who doesn't, this includes strategy and tactical adherence. KONAMI would be wise to re-implement the chemistry and teamwork ratings that will make those strategies actually stand out, and give teams a true identity.
The beauty of sports is the communication. Strategy and tactics cannot be accomplished without communication. In PES 17, lack of communication rarely happens. From players being on the same page, to poor passes, etc.
Sorry, the game does not mirror real football. Take it from someone who has dug quite deep into trying to make it look like real football. Football intricacies, and players stand out, are subtle, it's beautiful - it's football. It's what makes great players stand out, not just from them scoring goals, but their movement off the ball, their movement when the ball is stopped, their defensive reading of the game, their resilience after making mistakes.
Robot less, and humanize more. KONAMI did this once a blue moon ago, we shouldn't settle and call it real football when the best thing they've got here is the football in motion. It's okay to love the series, but be critical of its shortcomings in a constructive manner. It's the only way we will see improvement. We are PES fans...it's only natural, I say don't resist it and demand more - there's nothing wrong with it.
FWIW, KONAMI should watch more Sunday league matches, so they can isolate the natural behavior of the game, and not be influenced by rigid strategies/tactics and star players. All that can come afterwards, and very easily.
Topaz
Programmer/TheAwesomeGem
Yep, I hate how they prioritized tactics over the basic football fundamentals and the player stats.
This is what determines the outcome of a match in PES 2017.
Unknown Handicap/Scripting: 25%
Difficulty: 24%
Team Spirit: 17%.
Tactics: 18%.
Player Stats: 4%.
Football Fundamentals: 2%.
When in reality it kinda works like this:
Football Fundamentals: 50%.
Player Stats(Physicality + Mentality * 2): 25%.
Tactics: 15%.
Team Spirit/Confidence/Chemistry: 10%
The main issue with PES 2017 is the order of prioritization of the AI. This is why it's so much easier to beat teams like Liverpool and Chelsea by 8-0 on Superstar and lose against Middlesbrough and Watford by 4-1.
Edmundo 22
League 1
- 11 November 2003
In my games the teams play like real-life top class futebol sides. It is quite jaw-dropping actually from my experience how good it is, I regularly see real-life Champions League goals in my games of Pes 2017. Can't speak for your games as your playstyle, team setup and what you do with att/def levels during the game will affect what happens on the pitch.
You complained earlier that the DMF does not function like a DMF, when in my games DMF functions just fine (helps out the back four effectively).
Futebol intricacies, etc is all there in my games , all of what you describe.
So when you say less robot and more humanized , I completely disagree, it is very humanized in what is possible on the pitch. I can feel the differences in ability of each of my 11 players on the pitch, their weakness and strengths is obvious after many games.
I like how Konami mirrors the top class futebol, I would not like that to change. So regards to your 'rigid tactics/strats' , I dont agree that they are. Infact, they add another layer of complexity to the game that makes sense (it happens in real futebol).
good post chris, im sure konami could find a way to introduce another tactical level for the AI managers, but they dont seem to have the man power to do that, i wouldve assumed with the extra money coming in from myclub they could hire a few extra people that could dedicate themselves to the manager/tactics to bring that extra variety you mentioned at the start.
- Staff
- #11,820
I played NHL 17 for the first time this week, and I feel a bit heartsick. (I could have posted this in the FIFA thread, but all of the below applies more to my favourite football game than it does to FIFA.)
When I came to play the game, it asked me how realistic I wanted the settings to be, with four choices. They didn't range from "easy" to "hard" (which was a different section), they ranged from "arcade" to "simulation".
The sliders included:
This is just a selection of my favourites.
When you pick a period length, all of these sliders scale automatically (e.g. shortest time = quick fatigue, quick recovery, quick AI learning).
(On a quick FIFA note, though, I'm genuinely gutted seeing how much more customisation and choice you get in every other sports title they do.)
When I came to play the game, it asked me how realistic I wanted the settings to be, with four choices. They didn't range from "easy" to "hard" (which was a different section), they ranged from "arcade" to "simulation".
The sliders included:
- Attribute Effects: How much player attributes override your input (which we've all been talking about, PES needs this!!!!!!)
- Aggression: How likely the CPU is to foul OUT OF CHOICE(!!!)
- CPU Difficulty: Once you've picked a difficulty level you can TWEAK their "telepathic" levels up or down
- AI Learning: How quickly the AI move to block your previous move (instantly, or after you've done it a few times)
- Fatigue Effect: The degree that fatigue slows the players down
- Fatigue Recovery: How quickly players recover that stamina
- (Human) Pass Accuracy: Instead of just having PA0/PA1 etc., you can choose the degree of assistance
- Min (& Max) Pass Speed: Much more control over pass speed
This is just a selection of my favourites.
When you pick a period length, all of these sliders scale automatically (e.g. shortest time = quick fatigue, quick recovery, quick AI learning).
(On a quick FIFA note, though, I'm genuinely gutted seeing how much more customisation and choice you get in every other sports title they do.)
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