PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Keith Houchen said:
I was having overhit crosses from 1.00 onward. I was seeing variations in shooting and passing from one session to another from the start as well. I watched new animations that I'd never seen before appear before my eyes and disappear again. In time all things will vanish, like tears in rain.

I'm still refusing to go along with the 'everything has changed in 1.06' bandwagon, irresistible though the peer pressure may be.

To believe it, I'd have to see the changes myself (I don't), OR accept that Konami could make wholesale gameplay changes to their flagship football title and not have told anyone about the changes. No detailed patch notes, in flagrant breach with common accepted practice, worldwide, across all software developers? I don't buy it. I really, really don't buy it.
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No offence mate, but as I pointed out to Jimmy, you both thought there was no change to 1.03 either. And that simply isn't true.

If thats the case do you dismiss that the game hasnt evolved from the straight out of the box version? Try deleting the patch and play it vanilla, the contrast is pretty stark IMO
 
The difference between 1.00 and 1.06 is very big. Between 1.03 and 1.06 not as big but still measurable.

1.00 has abysmal goalkeepers, that alone improved massively with 1.03 and a bit more with 1.06.

Cheating got reduced considerably from 1.00 to 1.03 and a little bit more to 1.06.

There are dozens of little changes that in sum made the game now much more enjoyable and realistic.

It's still not perfect though, the need to use supercancel is disturbing, playerswitching is not good enough and the catchup-bug is still there, and a realtime doubletiered stamina/fatigue-system is missing.
 
dannyfc2 said:
No offence mate, but as I pointed out to Jimmy, you both thought there was no change to 1.03 either. And that simply isn't true.
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That's not true either.

The post you quoted me on was after 2 games. I played another 3-4 games then commented that not only did I feel the goalkeepers were a lot better, but also everything about the game felt 'nicer'. By that I meant the so called 'scripts' or 'momentum' changes had been scaled down quite dramatically, and therefore fell in-line with the subtle nature of those 'scripts' we have come to expect.

For me those changes were very noticable after 4-5 games in my ML. I'm still yet to truly feel any real changes from 1.03 to 1.06 after over 10 ML games. That said, it doesn't mean I would rule out they are there.
 
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I'm sure there are subtle changes to the game, but like Jimmy I really haven't noticed any as yet. Any changes in a 2mb size update were probably just alterations to the way the CPU reacts to things, like toning down momentum changes. I really don't see how some people have come out thinking the ball physics etc are different. The core mechanics of the game, in my opinion at any rate, are the same. It's the CPU that has slightly altered if anything.
 
2 mb for 1.06 and the whatever mb's for 1.03 changed a lot in the gameplay. It didn't change anything in the visuals or animation but nearly everything else got changed for the better.

Goalkeeper is now reliable most of the time, in 1.00 he was playing for the opposite team!

That one alone is a blessing.

Then what changed considerably is the amount of cheating, on superstar it is imho nearly completely gone. There is still momentum but it is defeatable, cheating is nearly completely gone.

Remember the bug that allowed for easy headers when crossing early on both sides? It's gone now!

Throughballs work now better.

Dribbling got changed, players can now easily move the ball around without using R2, before it was very clunky.

The game got a tad faster with patch 1.06, now -2 is a bit too fast in some stadia.

Midfield-play is now more prominent, still not enough imho, but more than in either 1.00 or 1.03.

There is now more physical variation in the interaction between players.

The ball is a bit more free, for example when there is a loose ball you can run onto it and when you get to it a millisecond before the opponent you can win the ball, before it didn't work. And when the ball got played a bit too far from the foot of the opponent you can get inbetween now, before it wasn't possible, as if the ball belonged to the other player.

Shooting got changed slightly since 1.03, you have now a bit more influence over the direction and I think it's now more intuitive (not up or down like it was before to choose between right and left).

Some of these changes are subtle, but some are more than only subtle, can't believe that some people can't perceive these changes.
 
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henrys hand said:
Shooting got changed slightly since 1.03, you have now a bit more influence over the direction and I think it's now more intuitive (not up or down like it was before to choose between right and left).
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Really? I found it was still up down, Are shots going in the direction you are pressing?
 
dannyfc2 said:
No offence mate, but as I pointed out to Jimmy, you both thought there was no change to 1.03 either. And that simply isn't true.

If thats the case do you dismiss that the game hasnt evolved from the straight out of the box version? Try deleting the patch and play it vanilla, the contrast is pretty stark IMO
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What happens with next-gen PES patches is that the doubting voices go silent after a time and the community proceeds on the assumption that the claimed changes are a reality, as if the 'argument' has been settled, when in fact that isn't the case.

Over the past week since 1.06 landed there have been loud claims from those who didn't play PES2012 very much (if at all) for the past few months, who now suddenly find that the game feels fresh and alive to them again. Hmmm...

Of course there are a few long-term players who do see these changes. All I'm saying is that I'm a longer-term player who doesn't. I have noticed a general speed increase in 1.06 (which is not very welcome to me). But changes in core passing, shooting, running, jumping values? Nope.

In each patch since 1.00, the patchnotes provided by Konami have indeed documented the major changes that they introduced. Goalkeeper improvement (1.02 I think), Shooting tweaked to reduce long-range effectiveness (1.03). These things were clearly stated.

1.06 got the vaguest of vague patchnotes. What did it say again---improvement of game experience in various modes? Something like that!

An unofficial list of changes allegedly brought in by 1.06, compiled from the forums, would run to almost 100 items. henryshand's list just above is just a sample of what's been claimed for 1.06. Don't you think if Konami had done all that, or even a fraction of that, they'd be saying so, just as they did for the goalkeeper patch and the shooting patch?

Like I say above, I know how the post-patch discussion works, and pretty soon it'll just be treated as fact that 1.06 brought in all the changes discovered by so many.

Maybe it did and I'm just extraordinarily insensitive to the workings of a game I've played almost daily since October. I accept that that is a possibility, all joking aside.
 
There is no guesswork needed, I can do a back to back comparison with version 1.03 and 1.06. I had 1.03-patch on usb-stick, but I deleted it after I saw that 1.06 was better, but I can do get it again in a few days (I lend it to my brother), download the 1.03-patch, put it into the usb-stick and play with it the same matches... one time with the stick in the xbox360, the other time without.

That way I can play with 1.03 and 1.06 back to back and settle this controversy once and for all.

On xbox360 though, can't say anything about PS3 or PC-versions.
 
henrys hand said:
There is no guesswork needed, I can do a back to back comparison with version 1.03 and 1.06. I had 1.03-patch on usb-stick, but I deleted it after I saw that 1.06 was better, but I can do get it again in a few days (I lend it to my brother), download the 1.03-patch, put it into the usb-stick and play with it the same matches... one time with the stick in the xbox360, the other time without.

That way I can play with 1.03 and 1.06 back to back and settle this controversy once and for all.

On xbox360 though, can't say anything about PS3 or PC-versions.
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Don't worry about it. It's not necessary to settle anything, even if you could settle it by doing the above (it wouldn't settle it!).

Konami could settle it in a moment with a statement, but they already put out the patchnotes they wanted to put out, and they can't have failed to notice over the past few years that the placebo effect is nothing but a benefit to them. If I was them I'd just let us get on with it and see/not see what we please, which is what's happening.
 
Keith Houchen said:
What happens with next-gen PES patches is that the doubting voices go silent after a time and the community proceeds on the assumption that the claimed changes are a reality, as if the 'argument' has been settled, when in fact that isn't the case.
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So are you inferring that 1.03 wasn't much of a change then? Besides the tweaking of long-shooting you mentioned in the notes.

I haven't played 1.06 so can't comment. All I can say is that each version that I have experienced have exhibited significant changes beyond those published. You say 1.02 was a tweak of keepers, but what I felt was a huge shift in the dynamics of the game to protect them. Shots were blocked more frequently, defenders were tighter, it became much more of a chore to play then previously. So much so that I pretty much stopped playing until 1.03, where everything was once again liberated and free.

Without patch notes it is very ambiguous I agree, but to me at least, the effect is far too pronounced to be written off as a placebo.
 
They've never detailed specifically what has been modified with patches, but people always notice a difference. So something is happening behind the scenes.

If you don't think the ball has more weight now, have you noticed how many more shots stay low to the ground and how hard you can drill cross field chipped through balls. Even hitting a shot with a player that has high kicking power - the ball really flies now. Also notice a nicer amount of error applied to shots. You can hit them wide of the target and it feels more natural and less scripted. Overall there is a feeling of more freedom. It's subtle but if you've played the game a lot through the different patches, you "should" notice it.
 
As I was having problems defending (I read every tutorial, and did everything in there, and still did not work.) I reduced dribble accuracy and dribble speed by 10 points all around. The game is much better, much more midfield game. I feel the like of Annan or Iturraspe are not lost anymore.

To some people the game clicks originally, but to me it finally clicked after doing that. I had my best game yet. A loss to Arsenal 1-0 with Tottenham. I used Bale's speed on the counter and hit the woodwork twice with VDV. But the midfield battle was mostly won by Modric. Yet it wasn't enough, when RVP in 78th minute scored a screamer. I pushed everything forward, and then Adebayor hit a beautiful header only for Scezsadfasdfny to send it over the goal. It was just great seeing both teams fight through the middle.

I also had a really good game betwee Blackburn and Hertha Berlin. Won 2-1, with and Adrian Ramos brace. The long balls have become much more useful in 1.06 imo, and Ramos speed took advantage of that.
 
fanolato said:
As I was having problems defending (I read every tutorial, and did everything in there, and still did not work.) I reduced dribble accuracy and dribble speed by 10 points all around. The game is much better, much more midfield game. I feel the like of Annan or Iturraspe are not lost anymore.

To some people the game clicks originally, but to me it finally clicked after doing that. I had my best game yet. A loss to Arsenal 1-0 with Tottenham. I used Bale's speed on the counter and hit the woodwork twice with VDV. But the midfield battle was mostly won by Modric. Yet it wasn't enough, when RVP in 78th minute scored a screamer. I pushed everything forward, and then Adebayor hit a beautiful header only for Scezsadfasdfny to send it over the goal. It was just great seeing both teams fight through the middle.

I also had a really good game betwee Blackburn and Hertha Berlin. Won 2-1, with and Adrian Ramos brace. The long balls have become much more useful in 1.06 imo, and Ramos speed took advantage of that.
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Was this a universal edit on the PS3 mate? How long did it take to do that?
 
fanolato said:
As I was having problems defending (I read every tutorial, and did everything in there, and still did not work.) I reduced dribble accuracy and dribble speed by 10 points all around. The game is much better, much more midfield game. I feel the like of Annan or Iturraspe are not lost anymore.
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Interesting idea. But defending against dribblers is really no problem at all, you just need to keep your calm and approach them using their speed, ie. not using the run-button.

The approach should be head on (regulating with the left stick the approach so that you equalise the speed between you, ie. so that in effect you come as close as a few centimeters to the opponent but then going backward a little to nullify the speed-difference between you, so that it is as if you were both standing, then you can slowly approach him further and he will lose his calm, pass away try something that usually leads to the loss of the ball) without wavering left or right, and forget about containment, against the good dribblers it doesn't work at all, they will use it against you. It's best to just approach them, walking/jogging, until they lose the ball or pass it away. Sometimes a good timed R2-tapping for stealing the ball works.

It's best to stop these dribblers before reaching the goal-area.

Sliding especially on the wings can be very effective as well.

To reduce compactness-level to 8 or lower helps too, so that the defense is more compact and helps each other out.

The use of the run-button while defending and the loss of the calmness in front of a dribbler is what creates problems.
 
I work hard to contain attackers, I do my best to defend the space and force people wide (or into bad shooting/passing angles) only for my stupid keeper to position himself in such a stupid way that the opposition literally can't miss.

The stats don't make any difference either, I've seen Buffon do some horrendous shit in ML.

I remember watching a video before this game was released that showed the technical side of the game. It was about zonal marking (I think) and how each defender had an assignment. Too bad it didn't make it into the final game.

Ultimately though I don't know what's worse, me hating so many aspects of the game (mainly awareness and players being idle) or the fact that I can't seem to let go.
 
Tobi, in fairness, ive also seen keepers, especially since the latest patch, pull off some unbelievable saves.
But your right, siometimes, defenders do go wandering.

My biggest gripe, whilst i Love the game, is the fact that your defenders who are tracking cf runs etc, at the split second that the through ball is played, they will stop, hesitate then carry on their run for a fraction of a second, allowing the cpu forward the yard he needs to get on to the ball. infuriating.
 
Agreed the defenders positioning can't be trusted at all. That's why whenever I sense that the opponent team tries to achieve a goal, ie. they start a deliberate attack with multiple players involved I always have an eye on my defender's positioning and correct them as soon as they make their usual idle blunders or wanderings.

It's even more important to track your defense's positioning than to track the ball-carrier of the opponent.

But it's also important to prevent that ball-carrier from making that deciding pass/cross... Sliding works here very well or just blocking by standing between the ball-carrier and where he wants to make the pass/cross to or tackling him even at the risk of committing a foul.

The freekicks can be easily dealt with by quickly activating the goalkeeper and position him in the middle of the goal and then to deselect him (thanks to ektorkeiko for that idea!). That way very seldomly a ball will reach the net.

Preventing goals through corners is also easy: When the ball is in the air, about halfway to its destination, pressing once the shootbutton will cause your defenders to get closer to the attackers wanting to head the ball, then when the ball is nearly there, pressing the shootbutton again will cause your defenders to jump for the ball and disturb the attackers enough that they can't head it good enough.

Important is to trust the automatic movement of the defenders and not to use the left-stick to change positioning.
 
henrys hand said:
Preventing goals through corners is also easy: When the ball is in the air, about halfway to its destination, pressing once the shootbutton will cause your defenders to get closer to the attackers wanting to head the ball, then when the ball is nearly there, pressing the shootbutton again will cause your defenders to jump for the ball and disturb the attackers enough that they can't head it good enough.

Important is to trust the automatic movement of the defenders and not to use the left-stick to change positioning.
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I seldom concede from corners, but i shall also try this method, Andy carroll ALWAYS scores headers against me!!!
Cheers
 
Had 4 blinding games of this today

Even had two games online which I never do. Lost 2-1 to Barca (of course!)
and drew 1-1 with Argentina. I was Valencia both games.
 
ccshopland said:
Was this a universal edit on the PS3 mate? How long did it take to do that?
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No, I play on PC. There is global editor so it does it pretty quickly. (Shout out to Wild@ for that.)
henrys hand said:
Interesting idea. But defending against dribblers is really no problem at all, you just need to keep your calm and approach them using their speed, ie. not using the run-button.

The approach should be head on (regulating with the left stick the approach so that you equalise the speed between you, ie. so that in effect you come as close as a few centimeters to the opponent but then going backward a little to nullify the speed-difference between you, so that it is as if you were both standing, then you can slowly approach him further and he will lose his calm, pass away try something that usually leads to the loss of the ball) without wavering left or right, and forget about containment, against the good dribblers it doesn't work at all, they will use it against you. It's best to just approach them, walking/jogging, until they lose the ball or pass it away. Sometimes a good timed R2-tapping for stealing the ball works.

It's best to stop these dribblers before reaching the goal-area.

Sliding especially on the wings can be very effective as well.

To reduce compactness-level to 8 or lower helps too, so that the defense is more compact and helps each other out.

The use of the run-button while defending and the loss of the calmness in front of a dribbler is what creates problems.
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Thanks for the post. And I've read all the tutorials around here regarding defending, and believe me (I've had the game since day 1) I've tried and it hasn't stuck, until I did the thing with the stats.

I will try again, simply because you wrote such an awesome response, but I think I will stick in the end with the changes I made. ML is so much better so far.
 
fanolato said:
Thanks for the post. And I've read all the tutorials around here regarding defending, and believe me (I've had the game since day 1) I've tried and it hasn't stuck, until I did the thing with the stats.

I will try again, simply because you wrote such an awesome response, but I think I will stick in the end with the changes I made. ML is so much better so far.
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The good news is Adam confirmed from Brazil that there is a new defensive/tackling system in place, Like us i dont think Konami thought the PES 2012 system was great.
 
Anyone else suffer from bad tearing when close ups come on the screen on PS3? I play the PC version and get it on the PS3 to play some friends.
 
SteelHorse75 said:
It isn't.

I give a foul away nearly every time I tackle.
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You're probably still trying to play it ye olde PES way, i.e. keeping a deathgrip on Square+X+Sprint, or some combination thereof. You'll give fouls away all day long with that, and when you don't give fouls away, the PES2012 AI will be past you as if you're not there.

NO sprint, except to get into position.
NO squeezing of X. This is a tap-only button now.
Limit your squeezes of Square. Basically, only squeeze Square when you're tracking a runner with your controlled player, and even then, don't overdo the squeeze. But if you absolutely must squeeze something, this is the button and the context to do it in.

It's not the defensive system that's broken but our expectations of what a PES defensive system 'should' be. It's a bit like the penalties system last year and the year before. It wasn't broken in the slightest. It worked perfectly fine. People just didn't wanna learn a new system.
 
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Keith Houchen said:
It's not the defensive system that's broken but our expectations of what a PES defensive system 'should' be. It's a bit like the penalties system last year and the year before. It wasn't broken in the slightest. It worked perfectly fine. People just didn't wanna learn a new system.
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:TU:
 
The penalty system where the camera was from the side was not broken but it was not very intuitive. If you have a penalty it's just more intuitive to have the camera behind the shooting player.

As to the defense in PES 2012 it's really no big deal, it's actually very intuitive once one knows what not to do. It works like in real life football:

In defense you don't run onto a dribbler who's merely jogging, he will easily skin you.

What you instead do is to regulate your speed to match the speed of the attacking dribbler and then to either just stand before him and doing nothing except of blocking passes/shots or you time your tackle and try one (in game using R2 or slide or just walking onto him).

When you either do nothing or try a tackle depends on if there is another defender nearby who can take over if you miss your tackle. If you are alone, you better do not tackle and just stay balanced and focused in front of him.

Dribblers are easily neutralized by staying calm and focused.

But there are other dangers. The dribbler will eventually make a deadly pass that rips open your whole defense usually through the use of a good throughball or a lofted highball. That's where the other aspect of reallife defending comes into play:

You have to read the intentions and play of your opponent. You have to keep an eye on the runs of other attackers while you keep your balance in front of the dribbler. You will see that one or two make a decisive run through your defense. You have then to make sure that your defenders follow these runs, if you don't correct their positioning they will just stand there idle and let them through, especially in situations when the momentum is on the opponent's side.

Sometimes committing a foul to break up a concerted effort is necessary, just don't do it inside the penalty area and don't do it in such a way that a red card is probable.

The following freekick-goal can be prevented by repositioning the goalkeeper in the middle of the goal.
 
I throughly compared version 1.03 (using an usb-stick) with patch 1.06 back to back on xbox360. There was this controversy if there is a change in 1.06 compared to 1.03 and I wanted to be sure.

Here are the results:

Most of what I thought was considerably improved with patch 1.06 was already present in 1.03. Midfield-play, goalkeeper, ballphysics are nearly identical.

Yes, the goalkeeper is slightly better at double-saving, and yes shooting is a little more varied with a bit more curve, but the improvements are so slight as not to be worth to mention.

The gamemechanics work for the most part identically!

And yet the game felt in both versions different. I played back and forth trying to pinpoint what contributes to the different feeling.

Eventually I was able to pinpoint them:

1. The players are quicker at regaining their balance/focus, they seem more stiff in version 1.06 but therefore quicker to react to changed situations.

2. Loose ball situations are more open, more free. You can run onto a loose ball and when you reach it a millisecond before the opponent you can win the ball in 1.06. This is coupled with point 1.

3. The major difference is though how the AI works in patch 1.06. The AI for CPU-opponent and your own teammembers is more active, both in defense and in offense. The positions are better used and then quicker to adapt to a situation of defense or offense.

The change in AI is what makes patch 1.06 more fun to play, the CPU is more clinical at exploiting opportunities and plays more varied and your own team is also more adept at making plays possible.

1.06 uses the same gamemechanics as 1.03 but tightens things up and adds a more active, more varied AI for bothe the opponent and your own team.

The other difference is that momentum is more in use in patch 1.06 on top-player than in 1.03. In 1.03 I could make a goal or two and the opponent continued to play his game about the same. In 1.06 the momentum would then swing to the opponent, making him play a bit better and more urgent to equalise, even having more luck...

Fortunately it's stoppable and you can get them on the counter, so it's not blatant cheating.
 
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