PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

kobayashi said:
anything positive? :CONFUSE:
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Nope :P . I mean, I wasn't really commenting on the purpose of the video, it was just an example of something that sticks out like a sore thumb to me. To some people it might not be important, to me it's quite game-breaking.

You can put them in the 433 shape and make them press and play short passes, which is all very nice, but if we're talking about virtually recreating Guardiola/Cruyff, then we're looking at fundamental things like space and patience, and sadly the individual AI is not up to that with any settings. Of course it's still great to be able to have opponents playing different styles.

kobayashi said:
The run wasn't bad for me, i mean it would annoy most people but it's not something set in stone with the game, it's just my settings. Didn't annoy me at all. I set my players to play pretty close together, also i stuck a pretty defensive minded player at Left back so that wasn't Fabio Coentrao btw, Coentrao would be booming down the wings! That's probably was the reason he was running in field. I mean if you look at Barca's full back all game against me constantly booming down the flanks and offering space out wide, so it's an individuality + tactics thing.
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kobayashi said:
they do make so very annoying runs at times but in general they get the basics right.
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If he is a defensive minded player, then all the more reason for him to be offering a safe option laterally rather than turning his back and galivanting off into midfield for no sensible reason.

I don't know what is more basic than a fullback facilitating a simple lateral pass from his centre-back. There was no logic to his choice of movement, neither in destination (his central midfielder was already there), nor in trajectory (bumped straight through the opponent, failed to recognise that he needed to open a passing angle around the attacker), nor in timing (abandoned his pressured teammate), nor in awareness (turned his back on the ball, ignored the obvious space on the flank).

The AI regularly exhibits such little individual awareness of the situation around him, of where the glaringly obivious space is, that it cannot just be a team settings thing. This is something I can never quite get past with this game. I hope it's something they've looked at in detail for 2012.
 
nerf said:
Nope :P . I mean, I wasn't really commenting on the purpose of the video, it was just an example of something that sticks out like a sore thumb to me. To some people it might not be important, to me it's quite game-breaking.
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It's important, yes but where we differ in our philosophy is that for me especially with the manual pass in PES 2011, I don't wait for my players to make runs i want them to, i set them up to how i want the team to play tactically and I play on the situations i get given and work moves out from there.

What i mean is that, you pointed out 'Hey, why is my full back running off! fucking idiot, this game is broken'.

Where as i would think; Hmm my full back has moved centrally, i could use the extra man while passing in the middle to work and opening. I'll explain more why i think like that.

You can put them in the 433 shape and make them press and play short passes, which is all very nice, but if we're talking about virtually recreating Guardiola/Cruyff, then we're looking at fundamental things like space and patience, and sadly the individual AI is not up to that with any settings. Of course it's still great to be able to have opponents playing different styles.
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I just feel you expect maybe a little too much from the AI. There's no way we are ever going to get a football in which the CPU plays passes into space or plays with the patience and improvisation and original thinking from a human. AI especially in this gen, it will never produce those genius like moments or inspiration that a human could think of. I mean the thing about AI at the end of the day, they just a program which follow commands and with the current generation (PS3 etc..), the AI picks from a list of commands and decides from will be the best.

So the thing is i really don't expect too much from AI. Like i said in arguments before i expect it to cheat or handicap you and things like that, because it has to. It just depends how balanced them make the cheating. I think even myself i forget sometimes sports games especially football are the most difficult games to program.

It's not going to operate like Crujff did or with the intelligence of Pep, Xavi or dominance of Koeman. But i really just love and admire how well Konami have done with the AI. Yes, you pointed out some runs which need looking at but with all the tactical variables they put in place and the individuality and traits, No other football game comes close to mimicking Barcelona like that. I tried the same with the great WE9, the game didn't even come remotely close to matching PES 2011 even with all the arrows etc..

If he is a defensive minded player, then all the more reason for him to be offering a safe option laterally rather than turning his back and galivanting off into midfield for no sensible reason.

I don't know what is more basic than a fullback facilitating a simple lateral pass from his centre-back. There was no logic to his choice of movement, neither in destination (his central midfielder was already there), nor in trajectory (bumped straight through the opponent, failed to recognise that he needed to open a passing angle around the attacker), nor in timing (abandoned his pressured teammate), nor in awareness (turned his back on the ball, ignored the obvious space on the flank).
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True, you could say that, then again my mentality is completely different. i don't expect the AI to always make the sensible or 'obvious' run all the time. It's a video game and PES 2011 has many variables and commands so every now and again like every other football game the AI will do something a little ordinary and when you consider you have given them instructions to 'play narrow'. If he runs into the center, i don't get annoyed, i would just use him (that's just me :) ). With PES 2012 seabass acknowledged player runs needed work, so your right to complain but it's only gamebreaking if you rely on the AI to move where you want them to go.

I remember back in November in my ML Felipe Luis scored for a run of play goal, just sprinting down the pitch (i set him up to attack by pushing him high up the pitch). I'm playing with Sporting atm, my Left back Evaldo who's a good player, good pace but shit technique (just useful for just running down the wing) He at times get's lost upfront. I think that would probably want to make you smash your PC or PS3 if it happened to you, then again, when you put player switching to frequent, someone is always there to cover him :)

Then again my friend you could still just remove all the tactics and make them play rigidly still. So you simply the run they make or don't make :LOL:

The AI regularly exhibits such little individual awareness of the situation around him, of where the glaringly obivious space is, that it cannot just be a team settings thing. This is something I can never quite get past with this game. I hope it's something they've looked at in detail for 2012.
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I wouldn't say it fucks up regularly at all. It has it's moments yes like you pointed out but on the whole, like you saw with my first goal they do make some very crafty runs to more than compensate for their brain farts. For example you watched the whole video and only found one moment which would annoy you. Doesn't that happen in ever football game. I mean it must do? It's true arguable PES 2011 brain farts are more bizarre compared to other games but i mean i've played a few older PES games and similar things happen. I'd say FIFA is more predictable with it's runs, but it's also predictable with it's AI bugs.

This kinda sums up PES 2011 for me. It has some glaring huge issues (player switching, player collisions are horrific, animation transitions and certain animations not carrying sprint momentum) but the good parts of the game are so, just brilliant you forget all about the annoyances and just enjoy the game and the depth.
 
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That's why I go back to 2010 sometimes. I miss these animations and wonder why they didn't make it.
 
Lami said:
That's why I go back to 2010 sometimes. I miss these animations and wonder why they didn't make it.
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I said in the video mate in the text. They must of been developing PES 2011 over 2 or more years or so. PES 2010 good animations were most likely built really to be fitted in onto of PES while PES 2011 was being built separate. I think PES 2011 Konami were just trying to establish the base and not over complicate things with loads of animations. You see with the dribbling and general movement the function is completely new along with the general freedom the game gives you.

Someone mentioned PES 2010 despite being broken had that 'something'. he couldn't put his finger on it but it just something which made you think 'i like this game'. The 'good' animations was that thing. Shame about the transition and crap running animations (i included no running animations from PES 2010, they were complete trash :LOL: )

PES 2010 was broken, wasn't great but wasn't crap! The gameplay when you didn't sprint was actually good.

Going to release Part 2 later, seen a few other nice animations today :LOL:
 
Thanks for the animations video. I was just about to record one last night just showing a couple of problems with R2 shots. For me, there are two glaringly obvious problems and I hope they're fixed. First of all, there are a lot of R2 shots where the player has no backswing in his leg. They look bizarre. It's not even a short backswing for a less powerful shot, it's just that the player swings his leg forward from a neutral position.

Secondly - and this is not my first time saying it (haha) but where is the curl/swerve?!! If you look closely on replays you can see the ball has sidespin. But watch the trajectory of the shot and there is never any curl on it. Now they shouldn't always have drastic curl like FIFA's finesse shots but it should range from subtle to occasionally very noticeable. Whether it goes in, is saved or goes wide, should still be able to see curl on the ball - mainly when you're outside the box (David Villa in the Champions League final), since hitting a placed shot inside the box is more likely to be (but not always) just a nice side footed finish without realy curling the ball. But even the latter looks weird because a lot of the animations are missing backswing!
 
On a sidenote, am loving the dribbling on this game. Often see a player who's taken what looks like an overly heavy touch only to reach a leg out and make a small adjusting touch so that the defender doesn't steal the ball away. Brilliant. Leaves FIFA for dead in this regard. Also noticed in Copa Libertadores the team seem to play with that South American flair. Makes it feel authentic.

If PES 2012 is nothing more than PES 2011 with refinements in animation and a better implemented refereeing system, I'd still be happy :)
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
Thanks for the animations video. I was just about to record one last night just showing a couple of problems with R2 shots. For me, there are two glaringly obvious problems and I hope they're fixed. First of all, there are a lot of R2 shots where the player has no backswing in his leg. They look bizarre. It's not even a short backswing for a less powerful shot, it's just that the player swings his leg forward from a neutral position.

Secondly - and this is not my first time saying it (haha) but where is the curl/swerve?!! If you look closely on replays you can see the ball has sidespin. But watch the trajectory of the shot and there is never any curl on it. Now they shouldn't always have drastic curl like FIFA's finesse shots but it should range from subtle to occasionally very noticeable. Whether it goes in, is saved or goes wide, should still be able to see curl on the ball - mainly when you're outside the box (David Villa in the Champions League final), since hitting a placed shot inside the box is more likely to be (but not always) just a nice side footed finish without realy curling the ball. But even the latter looks weird because a lot of the animations are missing backswing!
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Back spin shooting has got way old now for a whole decade of Pro Evo. It is actually challenging to impart backspin on a sidefoot finish, not when the ball is coming at you, but when you are creating your own shot, and especially on the dribble.

It doesn't help that the primary manifest of shooting is the player trying to elevate the ball towards the corners with the most half-hearted effort. Personally, I am still getting to grips with the shooting. I only started playing PES 2011 just over a month ago. Had not played a Pro Evo before other than PES 2008 on PS2. I am looking forward to hearing more on PES 2012.
 
Been analyzing PES2011 animations in slow motion and the main problems, ignoring how some of them look, focusing more on the way the system works (or doesn't)...

I hate the word but they are (sigh) robotic, the *engine* is deeply, deeply flawed.

The overall body movement seems too fast sometimes considering what's being performed, players without the ball/not being controlled start and (abruptly) stop several different actions/animations when they're looking to follow the ball or other players, very quickly and with very rough transitions (or no transition at all), players "stutter" a lot in simple running cycles where a leg movement is interrupted and repeated, limbs sometimes "snap" into positions without any transition, where for example, a player sprinting, the upper part of the leg moves forward with the knee bent, but the lower part of the leg "lags" to get in position and suddenly just "snaps" when it has to touch the floor... Among other stuff...

I know these details can only be seen in slow motion on close-cam, but all of these defects summed up makes it obvious even in wide-cam that "this doesn't look right", even if we're not quite sure why... It's simply not fluid, although in some instances it is... But that shows that there's something very wrong with the current animation mechanics. I'm not 100% sure why though. Poor implementation? Screwed up motion capture data? It's something hard to do with this gen's tech (too complex!?), so they don't have the people nor the money required? Or they simply did it wrong in 2008 but don't think it's too bad, therefore there's no need to redo it?

They're going to have to rebuild them at some point. I don't think they did since this gen started. They should have already imo.
 
first of all i think the next pes should have 16 african national teams, and add in a little bit more of latin natinal american teams, that way we will be able to play a normal african cup of nations tournement. and then in the rest of the world league they should put at least one club team of each continent.
then ther is:

- make bal more realistic like talking to media, giving interviews etc because the media is very important when it comes to football these days so pes should have more media presense

- the crowd has to be louder and make more noise when ur attempting to score a goal or when u miss a good oppurtunaty to score, especially when its a very important game like champions league, world cup etc..

- make a division 2 for every league and the teams dont have to be licensed, becuase in mastr league or bal its funner if u begin in 2 divison and u climb up to the first divison n other things like if ur club gets relegated ur gonna have to switch teams etc.. that makes it very realistic

- in bal, if ur team isnt doing well ther should be the oppurtunaty for ur club to fire its coach and u should be able to know, and in master league u should be able to switch teams to coach.

- plz make transferes more realistic, like messi will probably spend his whole carrer in barca so make him stay the whole time in barca, in my pes 2011 bal, c.ronaldo and messi wer both playing for inter milan :YAWN: that would never happen.

- in master league and bal, when its a final of any tournement, the stadium wher the match will be played is very important for example, pes already has wembly staidum licensed so how come in the english cup final we play in some french stadium instead of playing it in wembly?? and same for the world cup, it should be played in big stadiums.

- when u win any tournement, ther should be a longer video of u celebrationg with ur team mates and holding the cup etc... even if ur team loses the final they should still show a long video cuz like comeon its a final ther should be more drama and more noise comming from the croid, oh and also i remember in pes 2009 in some games they used to show the crowd in the begining of the game, that was soo good why the hell did they take that off?? bring it back plz

- bring the mimi training games from old pes back, we could put it in bal, for example ur coach should be able to tell u wat u need to improve on and u play these mini training games to help u

- VERY IMPORTANT, every manager needs friendly matches to test younger players howcome ther arnt any frendly games in master leaguee ??? put that in pes 2012

- i have much much more things to say but ill stop now exept ill add one more sugsection to pes, they should hire me to work with them lol ill help alot because i know wat ppl want in pes :))
 
kobayashi said:
I said in the video mate in the text. They must of been developing PES 2011 over 2 or more years or so. PES 2010 good animations were most likely built really to be fitted in onto of PES while PES 2011 was being built separate. I think PES 2011 Konami were just trying to establish the base and not over complicate things with loads of animations. You see with the dribbling and general movement the function is completely new along with the general freedom the game gives you.

Someone mentioned PES 2010 despite being broken had that 'something'. he couldn't put his finger on it but it just something which made you think 'i like this game'. The 'good' animations was that thing. Shame about the transition and crap running animations (i included no running animations from PES 2010, they were complete trash :LOL: )

PES 2010 was broken, wasn't great but wasn't crap! The gameplay when you didn't sprint was actually good.

Going to release Part 2 later, seen a few other nice animations today :LOL:
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Not sure if anyone here tried the WE: Blue Samurai version as it was more refined than PES 2010. Reactions were much better and the overall football experience was improved.
 
_anderson said:
Been analyzing PES2011 animations in slow motion and the main problems, ignoring how some of them look, focusing more on the way the system works (or doesn't)...

I hate the word but they are (sigh) robotic, the *engine* is deeply, deeply flawed.

The overall body movement seems too fast sometimes considering what's being performed, players without the ball/not being controlled start and (abruptly) stop several different actions/animations when they're looking to follow the ball or other players, very quickly and with very rough transitions (or no transition at all), players "stutter" a lot in simple running cycles where a leg movement is interrupted and repeated, limbs sometimes "snap" into positions without any transition, where for example, a player sprinting, the upper part of the leg moves forward with the knee bent, but the lower part of the leg "lags" to get in position and suddenly just "snaps" when it has to touch the floor... Among other stuff...

I know these details can only be seen in slow motion on close-cam, but all of these defects summed up makes it obvious even in wide-cam that "this doesn't look right", even if we're not quite sure why... It's simply not fluid, although in some instances it is... But that shows that there's something very wrong with the current animation mechanics. I'm not 100% sure why though. Poor implementation? Screwed up motion capture data? It's something hard to do with this gen's tech (too complex!?), so they don't have the people nor the money required? Or they simply did it wrong in 2008 but don't think it's too bad, therefore there's no need to redo it?

They're going to have to rebuild them at some point. I don't think they did since this gen started. They should have already imo.
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Its exactly as you say. The problem is that the current animation engine doesn't takes into account human body physics(or it does but is poorly implemented) nor human "body ai", so it simply plays one animation after another, while moving the 3d model of each player across the pitch, ignoring momentum, speed, body balance, the so called "footplanting", and all the complex interaction of animation/physics/ai that makes the player movement believable.

This video shows that ea has been working in this combination of animations/physics/ai since 2006:

YouTube - NBA Live '07 - E3

Our brains are lifelong trained to spot wrong or in-human movement, so this hit us right in the uncanny valley, and thats why it feels wrong.
 
after just playing a ML season, i sincerely hope they change the penalty system, its awful imo.

incase ur wondering, i lost the europa league on penalties, its fair to say its got my blood boiling
 
I think the penalties are great, except I don't know how to get the keeper to dive towards the top corners.

The taking of them is fine once you've had a bit of practice in training mode though.
 
Previews have said that the penalties has been changed back to the old system where you only pick a direction. Might also have been that the longer you hold the shoot button, the higher the shot is, not sure.
 
I'm not sure on the current penalty system. Even with practice, it seems that you have little control to be able to consistently put the ball where you want. In practice I can get a shot in a certain spot. In a match, I get a very different result even by using the same method I used in training. The slightest push of the left stick seems to sky the ball and the D-Pad either sends it straight at the keeper or goes wide.

It kinda sucks to be honest that a guy can hack you down when you're about to score and you have a small chance of getting the goal that you deserved.

It might not be the system but more so the sensitivity of the controller input.
 
I loved the 2010 Penalty System...it was really nicely implemented...I did get used to the 2011 system though, and it rewards practice...

cause the old systems are so luck/stat based, not much for the person the influence the shot. In 2010 (and to some degree 2011), it tenses you up for the penalties and once it goes in or goes where you want it to go, its a great feeling!! I hate it when I press right and shoot and just watch the ball go in or out depending on the AI's liking...
 
cesarpo said:
Its exactly as you say. The problem is that the current animation engine doesn't takes into account human body physics(or it does but is poorly implemented) nor human "body ai", so it simply plays one animation after another, while moving the 3d model of each player across the pitch, ignoring momentum, speed, body balance, the so called "footplanting", and all the complex interaction of animation/physics/ai that makes the player movement believable.

This video shows that ea has been working in this combination of animations/physics/ai since 2006:

YouTube - NBA Live '07 - E3

Our brains are lifelong trained to spot wrong or in-human movement, so this hit us right in the uncanny valley, and thats why it feels wrong.
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We seriously need to pass on this video to Konami, I don't think they are aware of the seriousness of the animations issue.
 
_anderson said:
Been analyzing PES2011 animations in slow motion and the main problems, ignoring how some of them look, focusing more on the way the system works (or doesn't)...

I hate the word but they are (sigh) robotic, the *engine* is deeply, deeply flawed.

The overall body movement seems too fast sometimes considering what's being performed, players without the ball/not being controlled start and (abruptly) stop several different actions/animations when they're looking to follow the ball or other players, very quickly and with very rough transitions (or no transition at all), players "stutter" a lot in simple running cycles where a leg movement is interrupted and repeated, limbs sometimes "snap" into positions without any transition, where for example, a player sprinting, the upper part of the leg moves forward with the knee bent, but the lower part of the leg "lags" to get in position and suddenly just "snaps" when it has to touch the floor... Among other stuff...

I know these details can only be seen in slow motion on close-cam, but all of these defects summed up makes it obvious even in wide-cam that "this doesn't look right", even if we're not quite sure why... It's simply not fluid, although in some instances it is... But that shows that there's something very wrong with the current animation mechanics. I'm not 100% sure why though. Poor implementation? Screwed up motion capture data? It's something hard to do with this gen's tech (too complex!?), so they don't have the people nor the money required? Or they simply did it wrong in 2008 but don't think it's too bad, therefore there's no need to redo it?

They're going to have to rebuild them at some point. I don't think they did since this gen started. They should have already imo.
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I don't think it's the engine, that's no flawed. If it was, there no way it would be able to produce a dribbling system like it has done.

It's two things.

1. BIG ISSUE! Lack of animations! There's not enough there, i said in my video before. PES 2011 is a 'base game' like FIFA 08/07 which Konami will build on. They just wanted to get it running and playing first, then sort out all the issues with animations later. There's a lot of very meh animations int the game. Some are pretty badly programmed being too fast or too slow. Just not implemented correctly. But when you add in lack of animations to deal with high or bouncing balls, player collision and in general there's just animations missing in many area's and ones which aren't programmed well, causes all the snapping to grid, the warping. It's why some animations look and seem as if they are tapped up.

2. The way PES is built. You know in PES every player is different right? So what the game does is seemingly generate a players movement depending on it's stats. I tested Barca out just learning new balance changes in shooting etc.. wit Barca, and i noticed there were so many variables in outcomes with tricks and passes in general, other games just aren't capable of. Which so many variables and things affecting the accuracy of their dribbling, speed they run, balance technique. There are so many of these' it's a challenge itself to get everyone to remain stable. If you look at it this way you can see why there's times the game freaks out and maybe there's arts in the game which are scripted tied up (snapping to grid) because of the problems trying to get the players to generate the movement which the stats give the player.

I excuse Konami for some of the complicated stuff but as for the player collisions, there's no real excuse for them being that bad as they are. They really are shocking! look so ugly! There's a few inexcusable keeper animations also which is a shame since they are programmed very well.

With FIFA, not just the technology is better but it's animations are not built on to consider stats. They are built to all flow together fluidly first and foremost. Then they try ad in stat effects after, which is pretty useless since all you can do is slow down the very same animations process which every player is given.. You can generate players with bad technique to have poor first touches or to have 'less' accuracy when dribbling, or factor in players dribbling with one foot more prominently than the other. All you can do is slow down the animation process.
 
kobayashi said:
I know, again, imagine how sexy PES 2011 would had been with them in :COOL: The marchisio one for me looks fantastic. PES 2012 is looking good for animations though but it would do no harm to add those ones back in!
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Yeah mate. I'm fine with dribblind animations, wich will also be improved in pes 2012 as we all expect. Dribbling animations for top player is somtimes a joy to watch. It's beautiful to see Ribery, for example, running with the ball, and it amazes me how almost every top and famous player feels different to controll with. I'd like to see more emphasis on generic players tho, with more realistic and smoother animations, but keeping the gap between them and top players.

But you are so right with this video. It is a fantastic contribution. I really felt the lack of variety animations for passing for example. Many passing animations in Pes 2011 don't fit with the power bar, balance and angle, and that makes many of them look a bit artificial. If they add those animations that are lacking and improve the ball physics (i hate the ball physics in online matchs specially) providing more variety in speed, then i'll be in love with the game:))

The R2 animations are lacking as well, and ball physics also needs to be improved to fit them.

I want so much that konami add news animations for cutting or intercepting passes, and the one with Diego is really good for this.
 
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Ryuga-san said:
We seriously need to pass on this video to Konami, I don't think they are aware of the seriousness of the animations issue.
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Problem is EA haven't taken full advantage of that, or maybe they don't want to. During play all that you've seen in the vid goes to the bin when they start sliding about etc.
 
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