PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Thespeedster84 said:
Remember tho'. our team mate ai is also decent to track free running opponent better than 2011. So yeah i hope it can make a good balance :))
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True, but it's more so it's effectiveness, and how the A.I. seems to 'let him in around the back' off that type of pass that concerns me. It's not the defenders parting like the Red Seas problem from PES 11, but it is there, just less blatant.
 
I think the issue of players like Gattuso apparently feeling like Messi when dribbling is a bit misleading. Sure, most of the players in the game seemingly can beat a man, but then I've even seen Tony Adams dribble past players in the past. The thing PES now does brilliantly is what happens after you've beaten the first man.

Gattuso will beat a player then invariably have space closed down, naturally, as you're running into the opposition. The difference now is that you can rarely beat a second man, and holding onto the ball is harder. Try the same thing with Nani for example, and he'll beat his first man, and possibly beat another. It's kind of like the game allows this through their stats. Some might not think that's right, but it brings individuality to the fore more in what they're capable of doing rather than how responsive they feel on the ball.

So, in the case of Nani, he can beat a man, ride a couple of challenges, even hold off defenders by stumbling through challenges, all sort of possiblities open up. Try the same thing with Gattuso, even if he does feel only slightly less sprightly and responsive, and the outcome will be very different. He'll almost certainly lose the ball and be closed down. That's my experience anyways.

In short I think the difference between how players 'feel' on the ball has been reduced, but their effectiveness at trying certain things is now much more individual than some give the game credit.
 
Hawke said:
Jon Murphy just tweeted that the second demo is final boxed code..but the game will be updated on/around launch, i presume that means it's the final code right now.
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I hope transfers are up to date don't mind the final transfer window day stuff being not updated, but if it's over a week or so old then that's pretty poor by konami. Hopefully they'll release an update asap and that we won't have to wait over a month for the winter update next year.
 
LTFC said:
I think the issue of players like Gattuso apparently feeling like Messi when dribbling is a bit misleading. Sure, most of the players in the game seemingly can beat a man, but then I've even seen Tony Adams dribble past players in the past. The thing PES now does brilliantly is what happens after you've beaten the first man.

Gattuso will beat a player then invariably have space closed down, naturally, as you're running into the opposition. The difference now is that you can rarely beat a second man, and holding onto the ball is harder. Try the same thing with Nani for example, and he'll beat his first man, and possibly beat another. It's kind of like the game allows this through their stats. Some might not think that's right, but it brings individuality to the fore more in what they're capable of doing rather than how responsive they feel on the ball.

So, in the case of Nani, he can beat a man, ride a couple of challenges, even hold off defenders by stumbling through challenges, all sort of possiblities open up. Try the same thing with Gattuso, even if he does feel only slightly less sprightly and responsive, and the outcome will be very different. He'll almost certainly lose the ball and be closed down. That's my experience anyways.

In short I think the difference between how players 'feel' on the ball has been reduced, but their effectiveness at trying certain things is now much more individual than some give the game credit.
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Absolutely nailed.
 
shank118 said:
I said that in reply to his comment that he won't buy or order the game if he can't try the finished code. My point being, the demo is definitely NOT finished code. Nothing there about whether the demo is better or whatnot.
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and my point is full game wont play any different than the second demo, so he can judge it from the demo...
finished code here or there.. doesnt matter

just look at all the demos in the past..

Brilliant post Alien. I'd just like to expand on the dribbling issue and say that it is not just good dribbling skills that have become a standard for the majority of players, but it is also passing, crossing, shooting and pretty much the whole individuality of players that has been watered down. I played Vidić on right wing last night, just out of curiosity, where I dribbled passed Robinho, whipped a cross with left foot which went to Berbatov for a free header.
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brilliant :D
 
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I have come to the realization that to defend well in PES 2012 you HAVE to trust other members of your team. Let me explain: In 2011, AI teammates were rigid and predictable. They constantly made mistakes that required the player to constantly switch between his entire defensive line using super cancel to fight against teammates stupidity. In short, defending in PES 2011 was unnecessarily stressful.

In 2012, when defending you have to observe the movements of your teammates, trust them, and make sure that you are covering the right space.

I ran into problems early on because I would often commit the player I controlled to tracking a specific opponent. This method often left open spaces which were quickly exploited by the CPU. I realized that PES 2011 had 'trained' me to mark individuals (a no-no in modern football). 2012 makes controlling passing lanes and containing key players the focus of defending. This method of defending is part and parcel of the modern game and I am glad Seabass and Co have chosen to implement it in this way.

One of my proudest moments in any football game was resisting counter attack after counter attack by Barcelona on Top Player just switching between a couple key midfielders and the fullbacks. I used the midfielders to cut the passing lanes and allowed my teammates to track the runs, as a result, the CPU were forced to play down the wings. However, any wing play was contained and directed to the corner flag where their only options were to be dispossessed, blocked or cross it in. They had 70% percent of the possession against Penarol (my team) and only won 1-0.

I really can't wait to dive in the ML where I can customize my team's tactics to the players strengths. It's going to be a great season!
 
sincover said:
I have come to the realization that to defend well in PES 2012 you HAVE to trust other members of your team. Let me explain: In 2011, AI teammates were rigid and predictable. They constantly made mistakes that required the player to constantly switch between his entire defensive line using super cancel to fight against teammates stupidity. In short, defending in PES 2011 was unnecessarily stressful.

In 2012, when defending you have to observe the movements of your teammates, trust them, and make sure that you are covering the right space.

I ran into problems early on because I would often commit the player I controlled to tracking a specific opponent. This method often left open spaces which were quickly exploited by the CPU. I realized that PES 2011 had 'trained' me to mark individuals (a no-no in modern football). 2012 makes controlling passing lanes and containing key players the focus of defending. This method of defending is part and parcel of the modern game and I am glad Seabass and Co have chosen to implement it in this way.

One of my proudest moments in any football game was resisting counter attack after counter attack by Barcelona on Top Player just switching between a couple key midfielders and the fullbacks. I used the midfielders to cut the passing lanes and allowed my teammates to track the runs, as a result, the CPU were forced to play down the wings. However, any wing play was contained and directed to the corner flag where their only options were to be dispossessed, blocked or cross it in. They had 70% percent of the possession against Penarol (my team) and only won 1-0.

I really can't wait to dive in the ML where I can customize my team's tactics to the players strengths. It's going to be a great season!
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Me neither, although I love Online, I'll be starting my own offline ML this year after having a year long hiatus. The CPU A.I. is far too intelligent not to indulge. :)
 
Heard a rumor, that if is true, will please a lot people who likes brasilian football :P

Hope it´s not just a rumor.
 
I can't help but think that there is fundamentally wrong with the highest difficulty.I have beaten it several time but sometimes it's too much surrealistic.The CPU can anticipate (in some matches) each single one of your dribbles, changes of direction, the AI will block virtually every shot.
He can also be pretty much flawless when it comes to passing, I love a challenge and all but it's as if the CPU boost itself to at times reach unstoppable levels.I wonder how tough the "superstar" difficulty will be then ? Will we be outplayed or cheated ?
 
zeemeister said:
@ bullstein. How goes mate?
Agreed it needs to be fixed up. God forbid I should have to drop out from PEEL if the connections should be worse than PES2011. Always my biggest concerns mate.
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Hiya Zee,

I'm good m8. I see you online playing "Enslaved: Odyssey to the West" lots lol

Yes, PES online needs a kick m8, with PES2011 I've had a mixture of great connection games and absolutely atrocious games where it feels like I'm trying to drag my players around a muddy sticky surface

Every year I pray for better :(
 
kouroux said:
I can't help but think that there is fundamentally wrong with the highest difficulty.I have beaten it several time but sometimes it's too much surrealistic.The CPU can anticipate (in some matches) each single one of your dribbles, changes of direction, the AI will block virtually every shot.
He can also be pretty much flawless when it comes to passing, I love a challenge and all but it's as if the CPU boost itself to at times reach unstoppable levels.I wonder how tough the "superstar" difficulty will be then ? Will we be outplayed or cheated ?
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There is going to be a very fine line here, which will also be a little subjective. I've seen the CPU score goals where I couldnt really seem to do much about it. I have no issue with that though, that's how great team goals in real-life actually seem to pan out. I've never felt PES has cheated me, and I genuinely mean that hand on heart. I would hate to see the day I actually felt that, but I dont see it happening. I have a footballers mentality, and for the most part, it is what it is. Anything can happen at any given time, thats the beauty and nature of the sport. I've experienced that during my playing career more times than I could ever care to recall. It's how each person perceives the outcome.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
There is going to be a very fine line here, which will also be a little subjective. I've seen the CPU score goals where I couldnt really seem to do much about it. I have no issue with that though, that's how great team goals in real-life actually seem to pan out. I've never felt PES has cheated me, and I genuinely mean that hand on heart. I would hate to see the day I actually felt that, but I dont see it happening. I have a footballers mentality, and for the most part, it is what it is. Anything can happen at any given time, thats the beauty and nature of the sport. I've experienced that during my playing career more times than I could ever care to recall. It's how each person perceives the outcome.
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Yes but that's because you know that it was down to the great human ability of the players who scored that undefendable goal. When it's the CPU it might feel to people like they're 'cheating' because they've been programmed to do act a certain way in a given instance. Obviously real life isn't that way (well actually determinism would suggest it is). It's a fine line and most importantly it's a computer game and there's nothing we can do about it unless you expect fully autonomous AI, which nobody in their right mind really should here. Professional plays fine in my opinion if people have an issue with top player. I know what you mean when you say you have to accept it, i do the same. The game is simulating those undefendable moments but as i said it can be a fine line on top player between great play and infuriating AI.
 
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By "cheating", I mean those moments when you are completely hopeless and helpless.Like you have no hope of stopping certain CPU actions, sometimes it replicates real life feelings I agree with that Jimmy but sometimes it's too much.Like the CPU always anticipating my moves to the point of desperation hahaha.
 
Honome_WEC said:
Heard a rumor, that if is true, will please a lot people who likes brasilian football :P

Hope it´s not just a rumor.
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You can't leave us hanging like this. Come on, do tell.....

Jimmy G-Force said:
Anybody that doesnt like Brasilian football, isnt a fan of football.
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Agreed, although Brazilian domestic football isn't always the festival of samba football us Brits like to believe it is.
 
Players like Gattuso or Ferdinand should not be able to beat players*. So stop trying to make fucking excuses like 'oh but what happens after matters' and shit like that. End of the story.

* Not so regularly anyways.
 
Jamezinho said:
You can't leave us hanging like this. Come on, do tell.....



Agreed, although Brazilian domestic football isn't always the festival of samba football us Brits like to believe it is.
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We do have one of the best leagues in the world, maybe not in quality but in competitive is sure one of the best. There´s always 6 or 7 teams fighting for the title until final games of the league. Wouldn´t it be wonderful if there were a full licensed brasilian league in pes2012?????
 
kouroux said:
I can't help but think that there is fundamentally wrong with the highest difficulty.I have beaten it several time but sometimes it's too much surrealistic.The CPU can anticipate (in some matches) each single one of your dribbles, changes of direction, the AI will block virtually every shot.
He can also be pretty much flawless when it comes to passing, I love a challenge and all but it's as if the CPU boost itself to at times reach unstoppable levels.I wonder how tough the "superstar" difficulty will be then ? Will we be outplayed or cheated ?
Click to expand...

Top Player is surely not 'balanced' well.. I've noticed this too but only on longer duration :/ Have you tried playing 30 min matches on Top Player? It's almost unplayable, but with regular 10-15 min matches it's random like you say.. on a personal note; not very much bothered with it on regular time though.

Lately ive just been playing on professional 30 min games and boy what a fun experience that is.

Excellent stuff Konami!!

Never have I enjoyed playing a football game for 30 mins per half! Talk about build up play, losing possesion, regaining it, defending and countering for 30 mins per half with this type of AI/gameplay!! SIMPLY AMAZING
The keepers seem a whole lot better as well (maybe just lucky). Noticeably way more passing error too (0 bar) but also from AI which of course makes perfect sense on longer simulation.
The lofted thru ball was not abusive at all (or) even combined with a few player trigger runs. The balance was there for sure. That 'balance' also reflects on the fouls/offsides/cards given and especially END results which are believable too, the latter being my biggest concern. Have had all kinds of different and realistic results really.
Change and variation in team style/tactics (PER TEAM) is also more apparent if you play longer games. For ex CPU trying to completely lure you in on their half only to try and counter you when they're ahead in score. CPU playing long balls because there's no way in for them :LMAO: Well done Seabass!! :WORSHIP:

In regards to TOP player I wouldn't be sceptic 'just yet' though, since it is only the first demo. In a few days we'll be getting an improved version (hooray)
I'm hopeful that it will be better for sure :P

Btw i noticed if you play on attack (orange) tactic settings with select + :r1:/:r2: the attackers make deeper runs to play a through ball contrary to when it's on green/balanced (by default)
Some were complaining about lack of attacking/forward runs, thought this might help.
 
sincover said:
I have come to the realization that to defend well in PES 2012 you HAVE to trust other members of your team. Let me explain: In 2011, AI teammates were rigid and predictable. They constantly made mistakes that required the player to constantly switch between his entire defensive line using super cancel to fight against teammates stupidity. In short, defending in PES 2011 was unnecessarily stressful.

In 2012, when defending you have to observe the movements of your teammates, trust them, and make sure that you are covering the right space.

I ran into problems early on because I would often commit the player I controlled to tracking a specific opponent. This method often left open spaces which were quickly exploited by the CPU. I realized that PES 2011 had 'trained' me to mark individuals (a no-no in modern football). 2012 makes controlling passing lanes and containing key players the focus of defending. This method of defending is part and parcel of the modern game and I am glad Seabass and Co have chosen to implement it in this way.

One of my proudest moments in any football game was resisting counter attack after counter attack by Barcelona on Top Player just switching between a couple key midfielders and the fullbacks. I used the midfielders to cut the passing lanes and allowed my teammates to track the runs, as a result, the CPU were forced to play down the wings. However, any wing play was contained and directed to the corner flag where their only options were to be dispossessed, blocked or cross it in. They had 70% percent of the possession against Penarol (my team) and only won 1-0.

I really can't wait to dive in the ML where I can customize my team's tactics to the players strengths. It's going to be a great season!
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Completely agree my friend, you can really trust upon your team mates. It's incredible how smart they are (yes i know it's a demo with bugs!)
F'n incredible
 
danyjr said:
Players like Gattuso or Ferdinand should not be able to beat players*. So stop trying to make fucking excuses like 'oh but what happens after matters' and shit like that. End of the story.

* Not so regularly anyways.
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Are you not sick of sounding stupid yet ?
 
amier said:
Top Player is surely not 'balanced' well.. I've noticed this too but only on longer duration :/ Have you tried playing 30 min matches on Top Player? It's almost unplayable, but with regular 10-15 min matches it's random like you say.. on a personal note; not very much bothered with it on regular time though.

Lately ive just been playing on professional 30 min games and boy what a fun experience that is.

Excellent stuff Konami!!

Never have I enjoyed playing a football game for 30 mins per half! Talk about build up play, losing possesion, regaining it, defending and countering for 30 mins per half with this type of AI/gameplay!! SIMPLY AMAZING
The keepers seem a whole lot better as well (maybe just lucky). Noticeably way more passing error too (0 bar) but also from AI which of course makes perfect sense on longer simulation.
The lofted thru ball was not abusive at all (or) even combined with a few player trigger runs. The balance was there for sure. That 'balance' also reflects on the fouls/offsides/cards given and especially END results which are believable too, the latter being my biggest concern. Have had all kinds of different and realistic results really.
Change and variation in team style/tactics (PER TEAM) is also more apparent if you play longer games. For ex CPU trying to completely lure you in on their half only to try and counter you when they're ahead in score. CPU playing long balls because there's no way in for them :LMAO: Well done Seabass!! :WORSHIP:

In regards to TOP player I wouldn't be sceptic 'just yet' though, since it is only the first demo. In a few days we'll be getting an improved version (hooray)
I'm hopeful that it will be better for sure :P

Btw i noticed if you play on attack (orange) tactic settings with select + :r1:/:r2: the attackers make deeper runs to play a through ball contrary to when it's on green/balanced (by default)
Some were complaining about lack of attacking/forward runs, thought this might help.
Click to expand...

What kind of scores do you end up with in 30 minute matches?
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Anybody that doesnt like Brasilian football, isnt a fan of football.
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I saw the test-match between Brazil and Germany recently (I think it was a month ago or so) and I found the gameplay of Brazil to be so outdated compared to what Germany played, it felt so 80's style... the qualitative difference between these teams was shocking and the result of 3:2 for Germany was not reflective of how superior Germany was.

Of course it was only a test-game, it's always different when a match counts but still the fundamental gameplay-philosophies can still be read.
 
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